Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 08:02:03 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Bill Subject: AEL Egyptian "d" and "t" Greetings, I'm hoping that someone here might be able to clarify a question that Budge's dictionary raises about the relationship between *t, *th and *d in ancient Egyptian. Though I recognize that Egyptologists generally frown on using this dictionary as the definitive source of info on any Egyptian word, Budge writes about this relationship: "In the case of [Gardiner's D46, the hand hieroglyph] I have retained the transliteration t (sub-dot) and have not adopted d by which it is now sometimes transliterated. Maspero has shown that in Semitic geographical names in the XVIIIth Dyn. D46 often represents the Hebrew [daleth] . . . but other names show that [daleth] is represented in Egyptian by [Gardiner's U33, the pestle hieroglyph] *t . . . At a later period [D46] is transliterated by Hebrew teth. . . In the Greek period, [D46] represents the Greek tau as in Kleopatra , and delta as in dios. In the Coptic period when the hieroglyhps were no longer in use, the scribes wrote all the names which in the old language had [Gardiner's X1, bread] or [D46, the hand] with theta. Finally, as Maspero admits that the sound of D46 was not exactly that of the Greek delta or the Arabic [dal], I have thought it best to retain t (sub-dot) as the translation of [D46]. As proof that the hand represented a sound that should be considered a variant or reflex of *t, Budge shows that the following words, which he transliterates using *th, had variants that began with either X1 or D46: "thes" ' a stone or metal knife' (844a); "thesh" (889a) 'to yield, give way' ; "theshthesh" (889a) 'run back or away, give ground' "theshthesh" with a flag determinative (889a) ' the figure of Osiris' "then" (880b) 'this'. "thep" (876b) 'taste'. Thanks very much in advance for anything that might shed more light on this problem for me. Bill ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:59:11 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL English translation into Hieroglyphics Hi; There was recently a discussion on the Thoth-Scribe list on Yahoo about the phenomenon that significantly more students are accepted into Egyptology graduate programs than there are likely to be positions to fill, and there was some question about the pros and cons of the moral propriety of this. Evidently, the information is there to create experts if the tuition is at hand, but a greater application of that knowledge before the public has to be aroused. So many monuments, papyri, and artifacts are in need of careful conservation. There has to be a way to get more attention and funding upon these facts. To me, though, a major point of uniqueness is that the profession of Egyptology has held a great mystique that has been highlighted by a very intellectually elevated and genteel reputation. The archetypal Egyptologist seems to have that regal, serene, archaic smile we see on so many monuments. For sustainability purposes, I honestly believe that this custom should remain inviolate. I have never heard of a professional Egyptologist with a reputation for coarseness, and I sincerely believe that this moral high ground is essential for the profession in the long term. The followers of Thoth regarded the scribal profession as a sacred calling. I have observed that poise is one of the greatest tools for getting people to part with a dollar. But of course, there is the story of the kidnapped little girl who was protected by lions in the African bush, rather than eaten, because she cried out, and the animals took her safety to heart. Maybe a new dimension is needed. Anyway, I really would love to find more and better ways to get money flowing into the projects of Egyptology. So, I ask devilish questions. Thanks much for responding. Best wishes, Bob ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:12:11 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: AEL Egyptian "d" and "t" From: msore@albawaba.com To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" In order to address the question raised and elucidated by Bill, the tools known, developed and used by linguists in areas outside of egyptology would be useful. Even required. Great question and the start of a good data set. Linguists write diachronic phonological rules in terms of how phonemes (not sounds) change systematically over time (and space) as specified by phonological context. In order to get what that means, some terms have to be understood within the technical interpretation placed on them by linguists. What is a language's sound system? Not sounds. Not pronunciations, not letters, not glyphs. Rather, the sound system of all languages can be seen to work on a level that is more abstract than pronunciation of speech sounds. The unit of meaningful organization in a language is called a phoneme, and several sounds - related variants which may or may not 'seem' like they are similar - can be demonstrated as participants IN the phoneme (an abstract set of possible pronunciations). What would the "phonological context" of a sound change be? Well, it would have to be a specification of what PHONEMES occur before, after, and with the phoneme undergoing change. Because rules describing how languages change are sensitive to context, the same segment MAY change to A in some contexts, may change to B in other contexts and may stay what it was in other contexts. All that cannot be accounted for in terms of sounds or letters or glyphs. Some may say that it is too darn complicated to describe phonemes as abstract sets of sound segments (or symbols for them) and describing rules in terms of the phonemes and phonologically significant features of the language. But if you are going to do historical linguistics, you gotta bite the scientific bullet. It may be hard to do all the engineering needed to build a bridge like engineers would. A bridge made by a hobbyist or an artist may look pretty, may be pleasing, may provide hours of fun. But it ain't a bridge that serves the purposes of a bridge. matthew > Greetings, > > I'm hoping that someone here might be able to clarify a question that > Budge's dictionary raises about the relationship between *t, *th and > *d in ancient Egyptian. Though I recognize that Egyptologists > generally frown on using this dictionary as the definitive source of > info on any Egyptian word, Budge writes about this relationship: > > "In the case of [Gardiner's D46, the hand hieroglyph] I have > retained the transliteration t (sub-dot) and have not adopted d by > which it is now sometimes transliterated. Maspero has shown that in > Semitic geographical names in the XVIIIth Dyn. D46 often represents > the Hebrew [daleth] . . . but other names show that [daleth] is > represented in Egyptian by [Gardiner's U33, the pestle hieroglyph] *t > . . . At a later period [D46] is transliterated by Hebrew teth. . . > In the Greek period, [D46] represents the Greek tau as in Kleopatra > , and delta as in dios. In the Coptic period when the hieroglyhps > were no longer in use, the scribes wrote all the names which in the > old language had [Gardiner's X1, bread] or [D46, the hand] with > theta. Finally, as Maspero admits that the sound of D46 was not > exactly that of the Greek delta or the Arabic [dal], I have thought > it best to retain t (sub-dot) as the translation of [D46]. > > As proof that the hand represented a sound that should be considered > a variant or reflex of *t, Budge shows that the following words, > which he transliterates using *th, had variants that began with > either X1 or D46: > > "thes" ' a stone or metal knife' (844a); > "thesh" (889a) 'to yield, give way' ; > "theshthesh" (889a) 'run back or away, give ground' > "theshthesh" with a flag determinative (889a) ' the figure of Osiris' > "then" (880b) 'this'. > "thep" (876b) 'taste'. > > Thanks very much in advance for anything that might shed more light > on this problem for me. > > Bill > > > > ==============================================================================