Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:13:30 +0200 (CEST) From: "omezzab@tin.it" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL egyptian grammar Hello! I think "Cours d'Egyptien hieroglyphique" by Pierre Grandet and Bernard Mathieu is a very good one for french reading people. And I think it should still be available. Bye Orlando ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:43:14 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Advice for an Egyptian grammar msore@albawaba.com wrote: > > Yes. most of the pedagogical works in egyptology are about how to get > students to use egyptological jargon and translate according to the > traditions established by the big names in the field. > > Linguistics is not a focus found in egyptology. > > Sorry. Loprieno's book is not linguistics. No linguist reading it would > recognize any standard linguistic treatment. It may be described as taking > established egyptological language issues and throwing various linguistics > terms at them. But the terms are thrown inconsistently, outside of any > coherence or theory, and without respect for linguistic levels and > principles. Loprieno does not treat phonology with phonological tools, > does not treat morphology with morphological tools, does not treat syntax > with syntactic tools and does not treat diachronic or comparative issues > with the principles linguists provide. He also ignores semantics and > issues about the lexicon. > > No matter what linguistic theory is used, a linguistic treatment will have > (a) some kind of generative framework, (b) some clear notion of linguistic > rule, (c) some treatment of how the several levels of linguistic structure > relate to each other, (d) some acknowledgement of the diachronic and > dialectal variation in the language, and (e) some serious discussion of > how researchers can and should make empirical decisions. > > Loprieno's book does not do these things. It just puts linguistic lipstick > on the egyptological pig. With all due respect. > > There is a lot of non-linguistic information presented in the > egyptological literature. And there is a lot of non-linguistic information > presented in the primers and textbooks about the Egyptian language. This > material, however, is from a tradition outside linguistics. And it uses > the terms and constructs of a tradition outside linguistics. > > How would an analyst decide WHICH explanation of any particular language > pattern should be preferred? That is a central question to anyone doing > linguistics. And it is a question that is not addressed in the various > books suggested as textbooks on the Egyptian language. > > matthew Hi; That was really thought provoking. It seems to be one suggestion (and, if so, I could not but agree) that to be a true linguistic investigation involves coming to fair terms with elements common to all (or most) languages, and refrain from filtering things according to stylistic axioms. I am reminded how Spain built train tracks wider than those of Germany in order to pose a real obstacle to invasion. The mystique of Egyptology seems to have extended itself around the study of the language, for better or worse. Or, maybe there has been an apathy on the part of pure linguists. Anyway, I notice time and again that when I find a translation of an Egyptian text into English that seems a bit off, it can often seem owing to a poor understanding of English rather than a poor understanding of Egyptian. Bob ============================================================================== From: "Marco E. Chioffi - Archeologo" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL egyptian grammar Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:16:29 +0200 The italian version " P. Grandet-B. Mathieu, Corso di egiziano geroglifico", Ananke, 2007, is a very very good grammar for all, not only for italian people. M.E. Chioffi member of the: Ass. Italiana Archeologi Subacquei Ass. d'Égyptologie ISIS Ass. Napoletana Studi Egittologici International Association of Egyptologists Institute of Nautical Archaeology Ist. Italiano Archeologia Etnologia Navale Istituto Italiano Civiltà Egizia Ass. Nazionale Carabinieri ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 06:05:58 +0000 (GMT) From: alessandro soprano Subject: Re: AEL egyptian grammar To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hey all, just to let you know, the french version of Grandet's grammar is no more available; I just ordered the italian version, thanks to Marco (I'm from Naples, too). Sacha ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:15:52 +0200 From: Vincent Euverte To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , sachanap@yahoo.it Subject: AEL egyptian grammar Dear Sacha, all all AEL folks, I deny that the Grandet & Mathieu's Grammar is stocked-out ! I have seen it in the Cybele and in the Louvre bookshops yesterday in Paris ! You can order it on Internet on Amazon : http://www.amazon.fr/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=295043682X By the way, should you look for a Middle Egyptian Grammar in French, I recommend the Claude Obsomer's one, which has just been updated with an interactive CD-Rom and an exercise booklet. The book will be released this Summer, but the rest is already available at http://www.safran.be/proddetail.php?prod=LCA10-11-12 I hope this will help you. Friendly yours, /*Vincent Euverte*/* web = http://vincent.euverte.free.fr Projet Rosette : http://projetrosette.info * ==============================================================================