Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:40:30 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Web Pages Greetings! A couple of years ago the ISP where I had my Web site closed down and i was forced to move to another (not better) provider. I didn't transfer my files to the new server which meant that all the pages I had created about the Egyptian Language, including the Little Egyptian Reading Book and Basic Lessons in Hieratic, were no longer available. Due to popular demand, I have now placed my pages on the new server. I have made a few up-dates and corrections, but there may still be problems with broken links, etc. If you find any such, please email me so that I can fix them. The new addres for the pages is: http://www3.telus.net/public/sjfryer/Egypt Stephen Fryer ****************************************************** * The more answers I find the more questions I have. * ****************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mary Jane Burton" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Web Pages Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:23:00 -0400 Dear Stephen, Thank you so much for your e-mail and for the trouble you took to recreate your materials. I really appreciate that and can make lots of use of it. Sincerely, Mary Jane Burton mjb14722@comcast.net ============================================================================== Subject: RE: AEL Web Pages Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:38:46 +1000 From: "Bill Glidden" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Thank you so much for making this available, Stephen. I am visiting your site as I write this and I am finding it very well written and informative. Bill Glidden ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:57:49 +0000 (GMT) From: sachanap@yahoo.it Subject: AEL Advice for an Egyptian grammar To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Greetings to all I have been a subscriber of this forum for some months and I appreciate the general level of discussion, which, alas, is a bit too deep for my present knowledge of Egyptian. I am a rather old man (I am the only one authorized to make such a statement) who as a youngster dreamed to become an egyptologist, but, you know, life is a rather stubborn guide, who lends you where you don't think to go. Now, I am an engineer, but my love for Egypt didn't leave me, so I have subscribed an Internet French course of Middle Egyptian, which I like most and which thrills me in all instants of my spare time. I have learnt so many things and now I am quite able to do some translations by myself, grasping at least the general meaning of the text. Now, that's my question: I have serious difficulties to master verbs in their different modes, especially because they often don't appear to differ in writing, and therefore diffent meanings appear to be possible. Would someone please suggest me some sound (and available) grammar? I think that the slides of my course are too concise, that Collier's book is too elementary and that my Gardiner is outdated when it comes to verbs. Thanks a lot Sacha Soprano sachanap@yahoo.it ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:08:22 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL JSesh 2.10.5 Dear all, I have just released the latest version of JSesh, my free hieroglyphic editor. You can download it from : http://jsesh.qenherkhopeshef.org/node/1177 New features : * new families from S. Thomas : P, Q, R and S families are now complete * lots of work done for the IFAO : * PDF copy/paste now available on the Mac. As far as I know, works with Word 2008 but *not* with Word 2004, nor with Openoffice/NeoOffice. * Wysiwyg PDF option for PDF file save. Note that currently, the available layout options are a bit limited. The JSesh layout algorithm has no idea of the page size, and hence the result might not be what you want. I'll fix this, but meanwhile I would suggest using SVG when a fine and controlled output is needed. * The PDF files uses correct CMYK black colour (important for printing workshop) * Document preferences are now saved: line, column, small signs centered... * cartouche line width is also saved as a software option. * JSesh can use a separate set of signs for small glyphs drawn in a small scale * shading symbols are available as signs from the menus (they were understood by JSesh from day one, but I didn't think it was interesting to use them. However, If used in conjunction with groups, they allow specific shading to be edited. * Square brackets and shading signs are now selectable in the group editor (note that in the future, I indend bracket to scale automatically according to their surrounding, and I will also add sign shading). * new drawings for ecdotic marks Best regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 03:33:41 +0800 (WST) From: gilbert To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Advice for an Egyptian grammar Hi Sacha, I think you will find that most people find the verbs the hardest part in AE. James Allen's book "Middle Egyptian" is considered by most as the most updated and best grammar so far and has been studied by 2 groups in AEL's daughtergroup "Glyphstudy". Another group will start within a few weeks, this time to study the other "top" grammar: James Hoch's "Middle Egyptian Grammar". Totally different in approach, it is, as far as verbs are concerned, more accessable than Allen's. Joining Glyphstudy is free, studying the book is for free (after purchasing it) and help by peers is at no cost either. Hope you can join. Gilbert PS there are a number of other grammars as well, listed with commentaries on a website - because of a computer crash I have no direct access to my bookmarks. Maybe somebody else can help. See also Stephen Freyer's page http://www3.telus.net/public/sjfryer/Egypt/ ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 21:43:50 +0200 From: Vincent Euverte To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , sachanap@yahoo.it Subject: AEL Advice for an Egyptian grammar Dear Sacha, and all other folks on AEL, If it can be of any help, herebelow is my humble and personnal inventory on existing Ancient Egyptian Grammars, in English and in French. It is certainly not exhaustive, so please, do not hesitate to comment and enrich it (in particular in other languages) : _* In English*_ * *Middle Egyptian : An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs* - Allen, James P. (ISBN 0-521-77483-7). Certainly one of the most up-to-date book in the domain. It includes the answers to exercises, which is not so common. * *Egyptian Grammar : Being an Introduction to the Study of Hieroglyphs* - Gardiner, Alan Henderson (3rd edition 1957). As you noticed, this one is a bit out-of-date, but still remains a great reference in egyptology. * *How to read Egyptian hieroglyphs : a step-by-step guide to teach yourself* - Collier & Manley (1998). A very simple approach, very convenient for beginners. Please notice that this book is not using the Gardiner classification for hieroglyphic signs. * *Egyptian hieroglyphic Grammar ; with Vocabularies, Exercises, Chrestomathy (a First-Reader), Sign-List & Glossary* - Mercer, Samuel A. B. (ISBN 0-89005-203-4). As it stands : "for first-readers" and now obsolete. _*In French*_ * *Egyptien hi=E9roglyphique : Grammaire pratique du moyen =E9gyptien et exercices d'application* - Obsomer, Claude (ISBN 2-9600371-1-1). This is my preferred one, very concise and efficient. A revides version should be released this Summer, together with a CD-Rom (already available at http://www.safran.be/products.php?cat=15) * *Grammaire raisonn=E9e de l'=E9gyptien classique* - Malaise, Michel & Winant, Jean (Universit=E9 de Li=E8ge 1999). Probably one of the most reliable source for now. * *Cours d'Egyptien Hi=E9roglyphique* - Grandet, Pierre & Mathieu, Bernard (ISBN 9782950436825). One of the most popular currently in France, as the support for the courses by Kheops Institute. * *La langue des Rams=E8s : Grammaire de n=E9o-=E9gyptien* - Neveu, Fran=E7ois (ISBN 2-9504368-3-8). Should you be interrested in New Kingdom peculiarities. Please note that this book is rather a course handout than a grammar in itself. * *Petite grammaire de l'=E9gyptien hi=E9roglyphique =E0 l'usage des d=E9butants* - Menu, Bernadette (ISBN 978-2-7053-1378-4). A simple one for beginners, associated with a lexicon (ISBN 2-7053-3627-3) and etn exercise booklet (ISBN 978-2-7053-0857-5) * *Grammaire =E9gyptienne : Moyen Empire pharaonique - M=E9thode progressive bas=E9e sur les armatures de cette langue* - du Bourguet, Pierre SJ (Editions Peeters 1971) * *Grammaire =E9lementaire du Moyen =E9gyptien* - de Buck, Adriaan (Editions E. J. Brill 1967) * *Grammaire =E9gyptienne, ou principes g=E9n=E9raux de l'=E9criture sacr=E9e =E9gyptienne appliqu=E9e =E0 la repr=E9sentation de la langue parl=E9e* - Champollion, Jean-Fran=E7ois (1836). I can not pass this one, being the first historical one ... but you will need also to study coptic to be able to grasp it. * *Grammaire de l'Egyptien classique* - Lefebvre, Gustave (IFAO 1955). This one also is a bit outdated, but never great Masters should be ignored. I hope this little list will help you. Should you need any further clarification, do not hesitate to contact me privately at vincent.euverte@free.fr, or consult our website Projet Rosette below (menu Documentation/References/Bibliography). Truly yours, /*Vincent Euverte*/* web = http://vincent.euverte.free.fr Projet Rosette : http://projetrosette.info * ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Advice for an Egyptian grammar Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:52:24 -0400 From: ahatnakht@aol.com Dear Sacha a nicely portable and brief reference grammar is Boyo Ockinga's Middle Egyptian Grammar, available both in English and in German, from publishers Philip von Zabern. It isn't really a teaching grammar, but you can look things up in it much quicker than elsewhere and it is quite up-to-date (the latest edition was published in 2005, I believe. Regards Mechthild ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 02:29:47 -0700 Subject: Re: AEL Advice for an Egyptian grammar From: Saint Simian To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi all, I'm glad somebody mentioned Boyo Ockinga's grammar. It's nightmarish to learn from, but it's a superlative reference work. Ockinga has also kept it up-to-date with regard to verb forms, and he maps these out in tables for easy reference. It's far more portable than Allen, though of course everyone still uses Allen for his explanation, ease of understanding and for his fantastic background information about Egyptian culture. Yours triskaidekaphobically, Simian ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 15:37:04 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Advice for an Egyptian grammar Sacha Soprano wrote: > I have been a subscriber of this forum for some months and I > appreciate the general level of discussion, which, h=E9las, is a bit > too deep for my present knowledge of Egyptian. I am a rather old man > (I am the only one authorized to make such a statement) who as a > youngster dreamed to become an egyptologist, but, you know, life is a > rather stubborn guide, who lends you where you don't think to go. > Now, I am an engineer, but my love for Egypt didn't leave me, so I > have subscribed an Internet French course of Middle Egyptian, which I > like most and which thrills me in all instants of my spare time. I > have learnt so many things and now I am quite able to do some > translations by myself, grasping at least the general meaning of the > text. Now, that's my question: I have serious difficulties to master > verbs in their different modes, especially because they often don't > appear to differ in writing, and therefore diffent meanings appear to > be possible. Would someone please suggest me some sound (and > available) grammar? I think that the slides of my course are too > concise, that Collier's book is too elementary and that my Gardiner > is outdated when it comes to verbs. I realized long ago that there are books to learn from and books to look things up in. The two are very different. Unfortunately most of the text books written are of the latter type. As you say, Collier and Manley is a good learning book but lacks quite the depth you want. Allen is a reference grammar. Gardiner made a start as a teaching book but rapidly switches over to being more a reference book. The only book in English which is written as a teaching book and is fairly recent is James Hoch's _Middle Egyptian Grammar_. I probably would never have learned to read Middle Egyptian if it weren't for this book. By the end of it you will have covered all the main grammar and read the complete story of "The Shipwrecked Sailor" and other non-literary texts. I hope this helps. Sincerely Stephen Fryer ****************************************************** * The more answers I find the more questions I have. * ****************************************************** ==============================================================================