From: "mluban@netzero.net" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:53:56 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL an etymological question Aurelio LaRotta wrote: >Thank you for your comments! Do you still have the source for 'hra' (face), >ideally with an example sentence? I am aware of hra= as the >bound form ofho, as in hrak (your face), hrau (their face) etc. but >I haven't seen it in isolation. The preservation of the final [r] in >the bound form (status pronominalis) is not surprising and parallels >e.g. the otherwise silent [z] in French 'me*s* amis', but the >appearance of hra in isolation or as the second part of a compound >word would be something interesting indeed! You're absolutely right and all I would have had to have done was remember Gardiner, page 432 to know it! I apologize for this confusion in my own mind. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:01:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Weben Banu Subject: AEL Different types of and words for "sand" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Hello everyone!=0A=0AI was wondering if there were words in the ancient Egyptians' languages for different types of sand. It seems that, since they lived in the midst of the desert- and therefore must have been confronted with many types and qualities of sand- that they may have had such terms. In the English-Egyptian index to Faulkner's Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian, however, I've found only one term: "Say" (pg 262 of the dictionary itself).=0A=0ADoes anyone know of other terms for "sand," and whether they might distinguish between different types of sand? Many thanks, Katherine ============================================================================== From: "Helen Lowell" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Different types of and words for "sand" Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:15:28 +0100 Hello Katherine Hannig German-Egyptian dictionary shows only Say, but shows 2 different types -Say n wDb , sand of the riverbank and Say n xAst, sand of the desert. Not really much help, but that is my offering Helen ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Different types of and words for "sand" Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:42:03 +0200 >I was wondering if there were words in the ancient Egyptians' languages >for different types of sand. It seems that, since they lived in the midst >of the desert- and therefore must have been confronted with many > types and qualities of sand- that they may have had such terms. **That sounds like the Sapir-Whorf fallacity, leading to the scientific myth that Eskimos have 70 words for snow because they are surrounded by the stuff. They haven't (just two, it seems), and the Egyptians seem not to have been bothered by all the sand either and apparently stuck to one word. The dictionary mentions desert sand and river bank sand (Saj n xAst, Saj n wDb), but I do not know the context, i.e. whether it really are types or just places of origin. kind regards, Aayko ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:08:04 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL phonemes Hi; We often hear that science is about facts, not conjecture. But, one so often leads to another. Anyway, looking at a few phenomena in some modern Egyptian dialects and suspecting a reflection of ancient practice (whether static or circular), it also seems possible to me that the doubling of A as in mAA may simply at times (whether by rule or exception) indicate a lengthened vowel without another consonant, as in some pronunciations of ma'alesch. Additionally, if mAat was pronounced the way some Egyptians say it, today, the A and a actually could have represented nearly the same sound, but their juxtaposition indicated a doubled syllable that included a rough breathing or glottal stop. Just hypothesizing... Bob ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:54:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Weben Banu Subject: AEL Plurals and compount nouns: nDwt-r and Hwt-Hr To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Hello all, I'm back with more of my questions.^_^ I've heard of the seven Hathors, and was wondering how one would go about pluralizing that name since it seems to be made up of two different parts. Hwt-Hr... I assume that the feminine plural suffix would go at the end of the very last word, as in: Hwt-Hrwt. Is this correct? I have only seen references to the seven Hathors in English, and the books have never included a transliteration! Also, the word nDwt-r, which is derived from the verb "to question, take counsel, consult" and seems to mean "oracle." Here's a picture of the word: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/webenbanu/Digital%20Papyrus/nDrr.jpg . This looks like a collective noun, from the plural strokes in it- if a plural form was needed, would the form of this word change at all? If so, to which part of the word would you apply the plural suffix? Many thanks, Katherine ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:24:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Weben Banu Subject: Re: AEL Different types of and words for "sand" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <> Yes, that is exactly where the question came from. Thank you so much for the answer, regarding both cultures! With thanks, Katherine ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 04:39:41 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Different types of and words for "sand" Weben Banu wrote: > > <> > > Yes, that is exactly where the question came from. Thank you so much for the answer, regarding both cultures! > > With thanks, > Katherine Hi; I had been wondering if there was a better way of expressing the idea of "listening with an accent", and it seems that Linguistic Determinism is one way to account for the failure of a concept to carry well from one culture or speech to another. Thanks! Sincerely, Bob ============================================================================== From: "mluban@netzero.net" Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:05:26 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Seven Hathors Someone, I believe had a question about the Seven Hathors--but I lost the original message. In the tale "The Doomed Prince", they are called "nA n Hwt Hryt" or literally, "they of the house of the sky god[dess]". Also, spelled "Hwt Hrt". The Seven Hathors are also attested in the Papyrus of Nesi Amsu, BM Papyrus No. 10188. It may be that the Seven Hathors were the same as the Pleiades a star cluster in the constellation Taurus of the northern hemisphere, known in Greek mythology as "The Seven Sisters". At any rate, where the "Doomed Prince" was concerned, they arrived at his birth "r SA n=f SAy"--or "to predict for him a prediction, a Fate". Marianne Luban Author of "The Pharaoh's Barber" A mystery set in the court of Thutmose III http://tinyurl.com/5qqvzt ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 11:37:14 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: "Oscar H. Blayton, Atty. At Law, Inc." To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Different types of and words for Cc: sonofthemummy@bellsouth.net This may seem off point, but it relates to our view of language and as a point of clarification I would like to point out that with regard to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and any relation that it may have to "Eskimo words for snow", Anthony C. Woodbury of the University of Texas at Austin wrote in July 1991 an explanation as to how there could be confusion on this issue, which I post here in part: ------------------------------------------- "This is a list of lexemes referring to snow and related notions in one Eskimo language, Central Alaskan Yupik (or just Yup'ik Eskimo). It is spoken by about 13,000 people in the coast and river areas of Southwestern Alaska from Norton Sound to Bristol Bay. It is one of five Eskimo languages. (Of these five, probably the best-known is Inuit, spoken in a series of well-differentiated dialects ranging from Northern Alaska, all across the Canadian far north, and up to the coast of Greenland. While the term Inuit is preferred to Eskimo by many in Canada, the term is retained here because (a) it properly refers to any Eskimo group, not only the Inuit; and (b) its use is widespread in Native communities in Alaska.) "This is a list of lexemes rather than of words. Roughly, a lexeme can be thought of as an independent vocabulary item or dictionary entry. It's different from a word since a lexeme can give rise to more than one distinctly inflected word. Thus English has a single lexeme speak which gives rise to inflected forms like speaks, spoke, and spoken. It's especially important to count lexemes rather than words when talking about Eskimo languages. That's because they are inflectionally so complicated that each single noun lexeme may have about 280 distinct inflected forms, while each verb lexeme may have over 1000! Obviously, that would put the number of snow words through the roof very quickly." ---------------------------------------- http://www.princeton.edu/~browning/snow.html When considering language similarities, not only shouold we keep in mind wh= ether we are referring to "words" or "lesxemes", but also the context in wh= ich the communication (or attempted communication) was made. Best regards, Oscar H. Blayton ============================================================================== From: Ogden Goelet To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 15:40:52 -0400 Subject: AEL Sethe Pyramid Texts on line? Dear AEL-listers, I would like to know if there is an on-line version of the Sethe, Pyramiden Texte on line anywhere. Ogden Goelet ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 13:30:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Weben Banu Subject: Re: AEL Different types of and words for To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Thank you very much, that is fascinating- and it gives me a new term to apply to my studies, "lexeme." As an enthusiast of languages in general, I really appreciate this insight! Many thanks, Katherine ============================================================================== From: Agustin Garcia To: Subject: AEL Old Egyptian Poem Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 22:39:13 +0000 Greetings I'm a new suscriber to the list. I was just surfing the web and came across the following "old egyptian poem" She is one girl, there is no one like her. She is more beautiful than any other. Look, she is like a star goddess arising at the beginning of a happy new year; brilliantly white, bright skinned; with beautiful eyes for looking, with sweet lips for speaking; she has not one phrase too many. With a long neck and white breast, her hair of genuine lapis lazuli; her arm more brilliant than gold; her fingers like lotus flowers, with heavy buttocks and girt waist. Her thighs offer her beauty, with a brisk step she treads on ground. She has captured my heart in her embrace. She makes all men turn their necks to look at her. One looks at her passing by, this one, the unique one. I found it on these web pages: http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~ancient/love.htm http://www.love-poetry-of-the-world.com/Egyptian-Love-Poetry-Poem1.html I'm curious to know which 3000 year Papyrus they are referring to, since there are no references at all. Does anyone know what's the text they are referring to and if by any chance there's a file with such text in MdC format? I'd like to take a look at the original text or at least know does it come from. I would very much appreciate your help. Thank you very much in advance. King regards Agustin Garcia. ============================================================================== From: "Michel Mudde" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Sethe Pyramid Texts on line? Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 20:13:34 +0200 Hi Oegden, Try http://www1.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1553.A1_1908_cop3 Michel ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Sethe Pyramid Texts on line? Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 23:09:21 +0200 Ogden Goelet wrote: > I would like to know if there is an on-line version of the Sethe, > Pyramiden Texte on line anywhere. * Kurt Sethe, Die altaegyptischen Pyramidentexte nach den Papierabdru"cken und Photographien des Berliner Museums, vols. 1-2, Leipzig, 1908-1910 -- vol. 1: Text, erste Ha"lfte. Spruch 1-468 (Pyr. 1-905), Leipzig, 1908. http://www1.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1553.A1_1908_cop3 -- vol. 2: Text, zweite H=E4lfte. Spruch 469-714 (Pyr. 906-2217), Leipzig, 1910. http://www1.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1553.A1_1908_vol2_cop3 Best wishes, Michael Tilgner ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 23:15:31 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Old Egyptian Poem Agustin Garcia a écrit : > > Greetings > > I'm a new suscriber to the list. I was just surfing the web and came across the > following "old egyptian poem" > > She is one girl, there is no one like her. > She is more beautiful than any other. > It's the first love song of Papyrus Chester Beatty I. The most up to date study, with hieroglyphic transcription, is Bernard Mathieu's thesis, "La poésie amoureuse de l'Égypte ancienne", publish in the IFAO (Bibliothèque d'Étude 115). I don't know of full Manuel de codage version, although a I've seen a T-shirt with an extract of one of the poems (apparently made with glyph) around 1990 (probably edited for the bicentenary of Champollion). Best regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Old Egyptian Poem Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 23:35:35 +0200 Agustin Garcia wrote: > I was just surfing the web and came across the following "old egyptian > poem" .... > I'm curious to know which 3000 year Papyrus they are referring to Dear Agustin, this poem is from Papyrus Chester Beatty I, a 20th dynasty papyrus from Thebes. It was published by Alan Gardiner, The Library of A. Chester Beatty. Description of a Hieratic Papyrus with a Mythological Story, Love-Songs, and Other Miscelleaneous Texts. The Chester Beatty Papyri, No. I, London, 1931 For transcription and translation of this and other love songs see: http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/literature/lovesongs.html I don't know whether the hieratic or hieroglyphic text is available online. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 22:10:05 -0000 (GMT) Subject: AEL words for snow and sand From: msore@albawaba.com To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" O Blayton makes a very good point. Tony Woodbury was one of my profs at UT Austin, and yes, it is important to specify what we are talking about when we talk about what we are talking about. There are other good points that need to be made in the interest of caution and scientific accuracy in dealing with an ancient language. But I will defer to the egyptologists with training in linguistics. matthew ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 22:14:33 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: AEL Different types of and words for "sand" From: msore@albawaba.com To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" As a related question, and one which could serve to point at issues of how egyptologists do semantics, let me ask a variation. How many words (or lexemes or concepts or roots) were there in the Ancient Egyptian lexicon (an any given point in time and place) for "worship" or "praise"? A lot more than for sand? Yes. What does that say about the culture of the peoples speaking the ancient Egyptian language(s)? Or what does it say about the peoples translationg, interpreting, and writing dictionaries for the ancient Egyptian language(s)? Matthew ============================================================================== From: Rhio Barnhart To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , og1@nyu.edu Subject: AEL Sethe Pyramid Texts Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 11:14:50 -0700 Ogden, Try this: http://www.archive.org/details/diealtaegyptisch03sethuoft or Bd. 1 http://www.etana.org/abzu/abzu-displayentry.pl?RC=12120 Bd. 2 http://www.etana.org/abzu/abzu-displayentry.pl?RC=12121 Regards, RHB ******************************* Rhio H. Barnhart Head of the Music Department Library University of California, Davis ******************************* ============================================================================== From: "Cheryl Hart" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Old Egyptian Poem Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 19:18:36 +0100 Hi, The poem is from Papyrus Chester Beatty I. There are seven stanzas in total - this is the first one. You may find more information and the rest of the poem in 'Ancient Egyptian Literature Vol II- The New Kingdom' by Miriam Lichtheim 2006 pp181-186. Hope this helps. Regards Cheryl Hart ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 14:32:46 -0400 From: Jerzy Prus Subject: Re: AEL Sethe Pyramid Texts on line? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Sir, Could you see http://www1.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1553.A1_1908_cop3 regards, Jerzy Prus ============================================================================== From: Subject: Re: AEL Old Egyptian Poem To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 15:02:03 -0400 (EDT) Agustin: The poem in question is the first in a series of seven love poems in Papyrus Chester Beatty I. It was published by Sir Alan H. Gardiner. M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, vol. 2, pp. 181-82. Cf. John L. Foster, Love Songs of the New Kingdom, pp. 45-47 for a somewhat different translation and a hieroglyphic transcription. Also, W. K. Simpson, ed, The Literature of Ancient Egypt, 3rd ed. 332f. Gerald E. Kadish Distinguished Teaching Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University P.O. Box 6000 Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Sethe Pyramid Texts on line? Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 22:03:55 +0200 Dear Ogden, > I would like to know if there is an on-line version of the > Sethe, Pyramiden Texte on line anywhere. The EEF Text Resources http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/EEFtexts.html mention that (only) vol. 1 and 2 are online: http://snipurl.com/fx2z http://snipurl.com/fx32 Aayko ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Old Egyptian Poem Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 22:12:48 +0200 Dear Agustin, >I'm curious to know which 3000 year Papyrus they are referring to, since >there are no references at all. \ **It's Papyrus Chester Beatty 1. The text you gave is the first stanza of a cycle of seven stanzas. The translation you quote is not Lichtheim's and has some oddities, it seems. Gardiner, Chester Beatty I, is the prime edition (I do not have it). Aayko ============================================================================== From: To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Sethe Pyramid Texts on line? Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 22:37:36 +0200 Mark Wilson has written on AEL 15.oct.1998 ------------quote--------- Those of you interested in Old Egyptian might like to know that the Pyramid Texts have recently been made available on-line, courtesy of the University of Chicago Libraries Electronic Open Stacks project: Sethe, Kurt Die Altaegyptischen Pyramidentexte nach den Papierabdrucken und Photographien des Berliner Museums.Leipzig : J. C. Hinrichs'sche Buchhandlung, 1908. [University of Chicago Libraries: Electronic Open Stacks] http://efts.lib.uchicago.edu/eos/html/page.form.html -- Mark Wilson Those of you interested in Old Egyptian might like to know that the Pyramid Texts have recently been made available on-line, courtesy of the University of Chicago Libraries Electronic Open Stacks project: Sethe, Kurt Die Altaegyptischen Pyramidentexte nach den Papierabdrucken und Photographien des Berliner Museums.Leipzig : J. C. Hinrichs'sche Buchhandlung, 1908. [University of Chicago Libraries: Electronic Open Stacks] http://efts.lib.uchicago.edu/eos/html/page.form.html -- Mark Wilson ==============================================================================