Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 22:11:17 +0000 From: Doug Weller To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Claim that the Merneptah Stele mentions 'Syria' and not 'Israel' Hi, I hope that this is an appropriate thing to ask the list. This stems from discussions on the Usenet group sci.lang where a claim to this effect has been made. The url to the whole thread is: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sci.archaeology/browse_frm/thread/f4c13b72d0c949bd?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=merneptah+stele+steve+syria&pli=1 or http://tinyurl.com/csgocg and you need to scroll down to where the subject line is changed. There is an illustrated version of the argument here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/11/5/211250/170 again you have to scroll down. In a nutshell, the argument is that "Gardiners book "Egyptian Grammar" says the Egyptian language has no initial Y, and therefore Petries translation is wrong according to what Gardiner says. " "y) is barely found as initial letter in Middle Egyptian except in the interjection M17M17 V28D D54 yh "hey" (258) Elsewhere it is employed only in grammatical endings corespondin to ii or simply i in Old Egyptian. Whereas M17M17 can occur either as last letter or last but one exx. mry "beloved" fem myrt (less often Z4 as two verical strokes)can occupy only the last place there it has the value y or i which it sometimes replaces examply Djerty (a town) Dyn. XVIII for Drti Dyn XI. For the origin of Z4 see (73,4)." and Gardiner is telling us therefore that as regards the reading of the Merneptah Stele M17 (reed) is reduplicated in the letter Y, Why?" The above quotes are from Steve Whittet, the person making the claim and writing as 'Rktect' in the Daily Kos. It's all nonsense, but can anyone comment on it? Thanks Doug -- Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com Doug's Skeptical Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:24:55 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Claim that the Merneptah Stele mentions 'Syria' and not 'Israel' Hi; It shouldn't take an expert (lucky for me) to notice that when a proper (especially) noun is transliterated from one speech/orthography into another, aberrations occur that respect the peculiarities of the the language newly rendering the word rather than the one originating it. So often, one language contains phonemes not found in another, and approximations are substituted. So, when we hear "Koka Kora" in Japan, we have to have some context to reconstruct the English original. The inscription reads jj-z-r-jj-A-r. Now, depending on the phonetic tendencies and peculiarities of the languages involved, the possibilities would have to be elucidated by a specialist who does not have a penchant for becoming temperamental, and who has a real grasp of the languages of Palestine at the time of mr-n-ptH. If Egyptian words "never" begin with jj or y, I think it might be safe to assume that the author of this inscription had a reason for spelling it the way he did. So, I would pay more attention to the opinions of scholars whose objective seemed the most determined to discover what they were, rather than folk who simply look for neophytes to be ridiculed. But, I have noticed that if I, as an amateur, wish to access the opinions of real professionals without a fee, I have to adopt a humble position and maintain it. Seems fair, eh? Bob ==============================================================================