Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:14:46 +0100 From: Marc DIEBOLD To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re : AEL French grammar book Jcmoinet wrote: > I also use 2 books from Bernadette Menu, editions GEUTHNER : > > - Petite grammaire de l'egyptien hieroglyphique a l'usage des debutants > - Petit lexique de l'egyptien hieroglyphique a l'usage des debutants > > The first one is a grammar, quite simple. > The second one is a kind of dictionnary. -- Bonjour, I would absolutely NOT recommend these books. The grammar is written in an obscure style absolutely not written for beginners, which will be confused. The book is written in the style of "egyptian is a scientific language for linguists" and "beginners stay away". The lexique contains very few words, and its presentation is quite poor. Not to be compared with a dictionnary! This is MY private opinion. On the other hand Bernadette Menu has written a little complement with exercises. I can recommend this book, well made, easy to use, designed for beginners. Amicales salutations / kind regards / mit freundlichen Gruessen, Marc. /////// ( o o ) ----oOOo-----U-----oOOo---------------------------- Marc DIEBOLD Universit. Louis Pasteur Tel: 03.88.416.149 4 rue Blaise Pascal Fax: 03.88.416.060 67070 STRASBOURG FRANCE Email, VoiceMail: mailto:diebold@cournot.u-strasbg.fr Fr web: http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/homepage.htm US web: http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/us.htm --------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:00:12 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL fun / aren't you In a message dated 98-03-22 13:38:05 EST, you write: << What about translating a sentence such as "You are coming, aren't you ?" in Ancient Egyptian. How would the << aren't you >> be translated ? >> Dear Francesca, It certainly would depend upon the age of the text. I don't know anything about the negative interrogative in Middle Egyptian. Probably, the examples of it are scarce. However, I am prepared to make some guesses for later stages of the language, although I can't recall seeing a question posed exactly like that "You are coming, aren't you?" in a text. Various cultures ask this differently. Some might say "You are coming, yes?" Others might say "You are coming, no?" Perhaps even in Egyptian the question might be "It's you will come?" Sometimes questions like this begin with "in", such as in mry-twk Will you love? Or, negatively: Hr-m (why) tm-T (don't you) Hni.w (row)? tr (so) Hr-m (why) tm-k sDm.w (don't you hear)? Then there is always the late negative "ni": ni wnn z3-f Hr ns.t-f His son will not be on his seat ni iw-k m p.t ni iw-k m t3 You are not in heaven, you are not on earth "you shall" is expressed "mtw-k" and "won't you?" is, I think, said the same. So my guess would be that the "aren't you?" part would be, perhaps either mtw-k ni tw-k ni iw-k Also, I think "Won't you come?" could be expressed as tmm-k iw.w Perhaps someone who knows better can set me straight as I, too, am very interested in this question. Andre Renouf ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:20:00 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL fun / aren't you Francesca wrote: > What about translating a sentence such as "You are coming, aren't you ?" in > Ancient Egyptian. How would the << aren't you >> be translated ? Actually, the "aren't you" wouldn't be translated as such in Middle Egyptian. This is just English's rather awkward way of indicating that a "yes" answer is expected. Middle Egyptian questions are formed this way: iw sDm=k "You hear." in iw sDm=k "Do you hear?" in nn sDm=k "Don't you hear?" The last is expecting an answer of "Yes, I hear." This could be expressed in English as "You do hear, don't you?" -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:27:08 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk (Ancient Egyptian Language List) Subject: AEL Beginner's Book I have just come into possession of a book, "Reading Egyptian Art: A Hierogyphic Guide to Ancient Egyptian Painting and Sculpture" by Richard H. Wilkinson. This book appears to provide the some asistance fr the rank beginner such as myself. It is basedon the "standard hieroglyphic index or "sign list" of Gardiner. THough grammar is not presented it does provide the characters, pictorial examples, and the. It also contains the "sign list" of Gardiner's. The book lists for $16.95US and was found at Books-a-million, is the only resource that appears to be affordable to provide the needed info for beginners, although as stated before it does not have grammar. Any thoughts? Barbara Petersen nordpete@webtv.net ============================================================================== From: "Nicholas,Patrizia Myall" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Gardiner's exercise 3 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:04:48 +0100 Dear Ren=E8 and all , this is my contribute . =09 1 Dd =3DTn rn =3D Tn n sS pn you say your name to this scribe 2 mAA s sA.t=3Df m pr=3Df iw=3Df rSw.t when a man sees his daugh= ter in his house, he is glad 3 DA R< p.t m wiA=3Df The Son-God ferry across the sky in his divine ship (which is the transliteration of r< when it is God?) 4 hAb it sA=3Df r niw.t Dd=3Df sxr n sS when the father sends h= is son to the city, he tells the plan to the scribe 5 ix sDm k sStA then you will hear the secret 6 rS TAty mAA=3Df Hr=3Ds the vizier is glad when he sees her fac= e 7 Dd PtH m r=3Df Ds=3Df Ptah speaks from his mouth to himself 8 iw=3DT m bAk.t=3Di you are as my maid-servant 9 hAb tw bAk r niw.t Hr kA.t tn the man-servant is sent to the city because of this work ciao a tutti Patrizia Di Paolo ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:18:11 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner's exercise 3 In a message dated 98-03-24 03:10:44 EST, you write: << 1 Dd =Tn rn = Tn n sS pn you say your name to this scribe Right. And this may also serve as the command "Say your name to the scribe". >> 2 mAA s sA.t=f m pr=f iw=f rSw.t when a man sees his daughter in his house, he is glad You forgot to transliterate the important "m"in "m rSw.t" > 3 DA R< p.t m wiA=f The Son-God ferry across the sky in his divine ship (which is the transliteration of r< when it is God?)>> Well, it is okay to write the god "R<" since the capital "r" means nothing special in transliterating Egyptian. 4 hAb it sA=f r niw.t Dd=f sxr n sS when the father sends his son to the city, he tells the plan to the scribe>> This could also be "so that he may tell the plan to the scribe" 5 ix sDm k sStA then you will hear the secret You forgot the "pn" after "sSt3" making it "this secret" 6 rS TAty mAA=f Hr=s the vizier is glad when he sees her face 7 Dd PtH m r=f Ds=f Ptah speaks from his mouth to himself>> Well, I would have said "Ptah speaks with his own mouth" 8 iw=T m bAk.t=i you are as my maid-servant>> Yes, and it is important to stress here that, when it is indicated that someone follows an occupation, it must be said of him "he is as a scribe (m sS)" instead of just "he is a scribe" (although it would probably be translated into English as the latter) 9 hAb tw bAk r niw.t Hr kA.t tn the man-servant is sent to the city because of this work>> This could also be "the man-servant is to be sent to the city because of this work" Very good, Patrizia. You are having no problem with this at all. Now here are the next English phrases for those who might want to translate them using Patrizia's vocabulary. I will add a few more words afterward. 1. The crocodile is in the river. 2. The moon rejoices when the sun is in his horizon. 3. Then (ix) shall thy name be heard by the vizier. 4. This scribe is in his office by day (and) by night. 5. The donkey goes down to the city upon another road. 6. The scribe sends this boat, that we may cross in it. 7. He rejoices because of thy utterance. 8. This land is in joy, when thou are in the sky. 9. He fares down to this city, his daughter with him. w3.t road, way, side x3 office, hall, diwan <3 donkey, ass itrw river msH crocodile Hr face, sight Hr upon, concerning, because of m in, with, from, as (before suffixes "im") Hn< with (this is an extra one I added) Andre Renouf ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:20:52 +0100 From: grym@trybunal.gov.pl (Rymaszewska Grazyna) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Weni L7/8 - questions I am deeply thankful to Andre Renouf for help with the beginning of Weni. Now I go forward to L7/9 and stop at: L7: what exactly means word _pAw.ti_ in the sentence: n zp pAw.ti L7/8: word _ixr_ (3 times) It means _further_ so it points out at future tense ? L9: _iri=k(wi) r Hst Hm=f m ..._ It maens: I will do praise of Majesty as ... ? PS. Back at L1. Are you sure the title in the first part of line 1 is _im.i-r prw-Sna.w_ and not _im.i-r pr-rwyt_ (= overseer of the court of law - Faulkner, p.148). I think it'll be more suitable, if Weni is above all a warden and a lawer. Don't you think? Regards Grazyna Rymaszewska ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:03:50 -0500 From: Stew Driller To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re: Weni Sorry to go back to Line 1, but I'm puzzled by some of the transliteration. In iAd, TAz, and im.i-rA, where does the /A/ come from? Faulkner has all these words but without the /A/. The same question applies to the /i/'s and /w/'s in xnt.i.w-Si prw-aAi. Does it have something to do with this being an Old Kingdom text? Regarding xnt.i.w-Si prw-aAi, "palace personnel", is there a source for titles? Faulkner doesn't have this title and I don't have access to a "Worterbuch". Thanks. Stew Driller sdriller@erols.com ============================================================================== From: "Ivo Marinov" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner Exercise III Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:45:13 +0200 Dear Andre, I will give a try on III-rd Gardiner exercise. But before do this, I would like to express my opinion about transliterations. I prefer to use them in the form they are used in this list (for example: nfr.t Hm.t=i). This form is good to me because it permits to include more information (gender, number, etc.). a) 1. You say your name to this scribe. Dd=k rn=k r sS pn 2. When a man sees his daughter in his house, he is in joy. mAA s sA.t=f m pr=f iw=f m rSw.t 3. The sun god crosses the sky in his bark. DAi ra-nTr p.t m wiA=f 4. The father sends his son to the city so that he may tell the plan to the scribe. hAb it sA=f r niw.t Dd=f sxr r sS 5. Then you will hear this secret. ix iw=k r sDm (secret?) pn 6. The vizier rejoices when he sees her face. rSw TAty mAA=f Hr=s 7. Ptah speaks with his own mouth. mdw ptH m r=f Ds=f 8. You are my maidservant. iw=k m bAk.t n=i 9. The manservant is sent to the city concerning this work. iw hAb=tw bAk r niw.t Hr kA.t tn b) 1. iw msH m itrw The crocodile is in the river. 2. rSw iaH ra m Ax.t=f The moon rejoices, when the sun is on its horizon. 3. ix sDm=tw rn=k in TAty Then your name is heard by the vizier. 4. iw sS pn m xA=f m hrw m grH The scribe is in his office by day and by night. 5. hAi aA r niw.t Hr k.t wA.t The ass goes down to the city on another road. 6. hAb sS dp.t tn DAi=n im=s The scribe sends this boat, so that we may cross (the river) in it. 7. rSw=f Hr r=k He rejoices on you. (?) 8. iw tA pn m rSw.t iw=k m p.t This land is in joy, when you are in the sky. 9. xdi=f r niw.t tn sA.t=f Hna=f He travels downstream to this city with his daughter together with him. best wishes, Ivo Marinov. ============================================================================== From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:18:59 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk (Ancient Egyptian Language List) Subject: AEL Need book information Have access to "Egyptian Reading Book: Exercises and Middle Texts" by Dr. A. E. DeBuck, have noticed that there is no answer key and was wondering if there was one available. Please provide assistance, this book is on temporary hold. Barbara Petersen nordpete@webtv.net ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:33:24 -0500 From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hierogliphic font? Hi Lubos, I highly recommend GLyphscribe for both versatility and modest price. It is available from Al F. Kanda at: ALKANDA@compuserve.com Enjoy! Yours, Raven ============================================================================== From: "Ivo Marinov" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Hierogliphic font? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:05:52 +0200 Hi, You can download some hieroglyphic fonts from http://www.osirisweb.com/egypt/ If you have problems with download, e-mail me privately and I will send you them. Ivo Marinov imarinov@internet-bg.bg Magnet ET - Prepress, Design, Publishing http://www.imarinov.web.bg -----Original Message----- From: lubos.husar@spt.cz To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: 24.03.1998 20:11 Subject: AEL Hierogliphic font? > >Please, maybe my question is not on-topic, but... >=2E..I need good hierogliphic font (for windows) and I don't know where = >I >can get it. >I searched internet for two hours, but nothing good. (Maybe I can't work= > >with Altavista...) > >Please, Can you help me? > >Thanks > Lubos Husar > ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:26:51 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner Exercise III Dear Ivo, As I have already talked about the Egyptian phrases that Patrizia worked on, we'll look at the English ones you've translated into Egyptian: << b) 1. iw msH m itrw The crocodile is in the river.>> Poifect, as they say in Brooklyn. >> 2. rSw iaH ra m Ax.t=f The moon rejoices, when the sun is on its horizon.>> This one should be "rS i> 3. ix sDm=tw rn=k in TAty Then your name is heard by the vizier.>> Here we have a sDm-f form which serves to express a consequence destined to take place in the future. The English phrase is actually "Then shall thy name be heard by the vizier". It should be "ix sDm rn-k in T3ti" > 4. iw sS pn m xA=f m hrw m grH The scribe is in his office by day and by night.>> Yes, a workaholic >>5. hAi aA r niw.t Hr k.t wA.t The ass goes down to the city on another road.>> No need to put an "i" on the end of h3 >> 6. hAb sS dp.t tn DAi=n im=s The scribe sends this boat, so that we may cross (the river) in it.>> Fine, except why another extra "i" on "D3? >> 7. rSw=f Hr r=k He rejoices on you. (?)>> "He rejoices because of thy utterance" should be "rS-f Hr r-k" >> 8. iw tA pn m rSw.t iw=k m p.t This land is in joy, when you are in the sky.>> Bravo! >> 9. xdi=f r niw.t tn sA.t=f Hna=f He travels downstream to this city with his daughter together with him.>> Another extra "i" in "xd-f". I would have ended this "s3t-f xr-f" or " s3t-f im-f", which I think bear the suffix better than "Hn<" One thing I really have to congratulate you on--you used the particle "iw" exactly right and did not put one more than necessary. I give you my word as a Copt (racial memory?) that one doesn't need this "iw" so much and one can develope a feel for when it should be there. If anyone following these exercises has any questions or comments, please write in. Andre Renouf ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:57:17 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Weni L7/8 - questions In a message dated 98-03-24 16:34:22 EST, you write: << L7: what exactly means word _pAw.ti_ in the sentence: n zp pAw.ti>> This means "the oldest time", so the phrase is "not from the oldest time" or "never before" >>L7/8: word _ixr_ (3 times) It means _further_ so it points out at future tense ?>> This "i-xr(=i) has rather the meaning of "because" here, implying (He did this for me) because... The whole thing says: "because I was perfect in the heart of His Majesty, because I was innocent in the heart of His Majesty and because the heart of His Majesty was content with me" "mH ib" literally means "to fill up the heart" or "to satisfy" >> L9: _iri=k(wi) r Hst Hm=f m ..._ It maens: I will do praise of Majesty as ... ?>> "I performed my duties in such a manner as to win His Majesty's approbation" is the gist of this part >> PS. Back at L1. Are you sure the title in the first part of line 1 is _im.i-r prw-Sna.w_ and not _im.i-r pr-rwyt_ (= overseer of the court of law - Faulkner, p.148). I think it'll be more suitable, if Weni is above all a warden and a lawer. Don't you think?>> Line 1 appears to contain a familiar title--'im.i-r Sm<" or "Governor of the South (Upper Egypt). I have closed the website and don't recall the glyphs, but perhaps this refers to the "prw wrw sis" or "The Six Great Courts of Justice". But I definitely recall seeing the glyph for "South" there. The initial title "Hati-<" is interesting because it means "Great Foremost One" or "Great Leader", which I would rather whimsically translate as "duke", it being the same as the Latin "dux" (leader). Andre Renouf ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:13:14 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Thanks to Andre Renouf Dear Mr. Renouf, I am delighted that you are doing so much wonderful instruction for all of us and taking an active role on the AEL. Not so long ago, I used to have more time and would participate here frequently. I miss that. It is fantastic that you have been able to keep things going so well. This project is very dear to me and I hope that after my exams I will be able to return to it full swing again. Thank you. I've been meaning to tell you that for some time. Just one small suggestion too: [Much snipping and pasting] > >>5. hAi aA r niw.t Hr k.t wA.t > No need to put an "i" on the end of h3 > Fine, except why another extra "i" on "D3? > >> 7. rSw=f Hr r=k > should be "rS-f Hr r-k" > >> 9. xdi=f r niw.t tn sA.t=f Hna=f > Another extra "i" in "xd-f". These verbs are third weak; learning the weak consonants does have some utility. Of course, many Egyptologists do not bother with third weak endings on verbs, but, in the past, I have tried to emphasize on this list that it is important to employ them in the early learning stages so that they will become instinctive, otherwise, after the verbal system is presented, the student may have unnecessary difficulty with the categories to which various verbs belong. I think that for those who wish to continue to utilize this lexical information in their transliterations, it can be a very valuable tool. It also helps to erase certain ambiguities of meaning in a completely ascii transliteration environment. Thank you, Andre, for all the good work. Sincerely, Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:04:26 -0500 Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner Exercise III I just have two basic questions, being new to the list I will mostly not say anything. How are the Egyptian 'words' such as iiyw and senebti derived from the heiroglyphs? And is there a list of such non-heiroglyphic 'words' out on the Net or in a book somewhere besides "Heiroglyphics for Everyone"? ~RheL ============================================================================== From: Hans van Haarst To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:39:21 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Need book information > Have access to "Egyptian Reading Book: Exercises and Middle Texts" by > Dr. A. E. DeBuck, have noticed that there is no answer key and was > wondering if there was one available. Please provide assistance, this > book is on temporary hold. > > Barbara Petersen > nordpete@webtv.net Dear Barbara, There is not a book wich has all the answers. But i did almost all the exercises in the past, so perhaps i can help you with some of them. Kind regards, Hans van Haarst emailadress : hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:53:14 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Thanks to Andre Renouf In a message dated 98-03-25 14:51:06 EST, you write: << Of course, many Egyptologists do not bother with third weak endings on verbs, but, in the past, I have tried to emphasize on this list that it is important to employ them in the early learning stages so that they will become instinctive, otherwise, after the verbal system is presented, the student may have unnecessary difficulty with the categories to which various verbs belong. I think that for those who wish to continue to utilize this lexical information in their transliterations, it can be a very valuable tool. It also helps to erase certain ambiguities of meaning in a completely ascii transliteration environment. >> Ah! The "tertiae infirmae". Frankly, I had forgotten all about these verbs (with the last radical consonant a weak "i" or "w"--seldom written out) but you are quite right and anyone who wishes to include this certainly may if they like. But I will probably fail to do it out of sheer habit. Ivo, sorry to have confused you. Really, I am probably like a rusty hinge at this, but I thought I might come in handy for those who would like to do some studying at home but have no one to help them. My only saving grace probably is that I am not the last word in Egyptian on the list and others will come to my aid if I wander off course (as they have). Andre Renouf ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 19:06:21 UT From: "Michael Mac Donagh" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL Need book information Hi ! Try Miriam Lichtheim's books on Ancient Egyptian Literature and "The Literature of Ancient Egypt" edited by William Kelly Simpson. Their translations need to be used with care but they should give you a lot of help. Regards, Mike. ============================================================================== From: "Ivo Marinov" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Thanks to Andre Renouf Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 01:01:34 +0200 Andre Renouf wrote: >Ivo, sorry >to have confused you. Really, I am probably like a rusty hinge at this, >but I thought I might come in handy for those who would like to do some >studying at home but have no one to help them. Dear Andre, There's no problem at all. I really appreciatte your efforts to teach the beginners like me. Thank you! Yours, Ivo Marinov http://www.imarinov.web.bg ============================================================================== From: To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:07:14 -0500 Subject: AEL Still looking for a vocab list Can anyone help with a non heiroglyphic based vocab list? ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:08:48 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Still looking for a vocab list In a message dated 98-03-27 03:30:10 EST, you write: << Can anyone help with a non heiroglyphic based vocab list? >> What sort of help are you looking for? Andre Renouf ============================================================================== From: MWhealton Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:22:25 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Still looking for a vocab list In a message dated 98-03-27 03:29:11 EST, you write: << Can anyone help with a non heiroglyphic based vocab list? >> Try this one: David Shennum English-Egyptian Index of Faulkner's Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian Undena Publications Malibu, 1977 Regards, Matt ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:42:31 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Re: new to AEL Hi, Have you taken a look at the introductory material on the AEL web page? A good place to start is: http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/hierointro.html This page includes links to other sites that you can learn from, as well as a short bibliography. Hope this helps! Regards, Mark Wilson. On 26 Mar 98 at 17:08, wingerrh@icc.it.cc.mn.us wrote: > > > Hello, I'm recently new to the list and more than likely I will not be > > posting in the near future but, I do have a couple of concernable questions on > > my behalf. How does one go about aqquiring the ability to decypher > > heiroglyphics and applying the the proper pronunciation to the glyph. Where > > would I purchase a book/books on aqquiring the knowledge. Thank you. > > > > JN Merrill > > > > I am in the same predicament - hoping to find someone who doesn't > think I'm bothering them too much being a beginner...~RheL > -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== From: To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:20:11 -0500 Subject: Re: AEL Still looking for a vocab list I have seen short lists with words such as : senebti = farewell iiyw = welcome em hotep = in peace Are there any lists on the Web that are more inclusive than simple greetings? I know that the vowels aren't always concise, but it could help me until I learn the heiroglyphics better. ~RheL ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL Question: Two Red Cows Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:00:55 +0200 In our group we are just translating the stela of Henenu ["The Egyptian Reliefs and Stelae in the Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts, Moscow", Leningrad, 1982, Nr. 26]. It begins with the standard Htp-di-niswt-formula, but then there is a strange sentence irTt iHti DSr-ti prt m-bAH nTr aA "the milk of the Two Red Cows, which comes forth before the great god". The Two Red Cows are not mentioned in the "Lexikon der Aegyptologie"; and Faulkner commented "obscure meaning" for CT IV, 45, i. In one of my books I found an illustration of Nefertari's tomb showing seven cows and one bull, two cows were red-coloured. It refers to spell 148 of the Book of Dead, where the names of cows are given. Does anybody know more about the Two Red Cows? Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 15:46:48 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Question: Two Red Cows Dear Mr. Tilgner, > In our group we are just translating the stela of Henenu ["The Egyptian > Reliefs and Stelae in the Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts, Moscow", > Leningrad, 1982, Nr. 26]. It begins with the standard > Htp-di-niswt-formula, but then there is a strange sentence > > irTt iHti DSr-ti prt m-bAH nTr aA > "the milk of the Two Red Cows, which comes forth before the > great god". > > The Two Red Cows are not mentioned in the "Lexikon der Aegyptologie"; > and Faulkner commented "obscure meaning" for CT IV, 45, i. I don't know of any reference to their being red, but two cows giving milk does have one important parallel. In the divine birth cycles, as represented by Hatshepsut's Deir el-Bahri and Amenophis III's Luxor versions, as well as the various Graeco-Roman versions in temple mammisis, show us that the royal/divine child and his Ka are suckled by the two cow goddesses, Hezaet and Sekhaet-Hor. These goddesses probably represent the Milky Way as in certain Pyramid Texts, and receiving their milk makes the king and his Ka into gods, the son of Amun-Re (formerly Re-Atum), who is also raised and lifted out of the waters and nurtured by a cow goddess, in this case Methyer (mH.t-wr.t). Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ==============================================================================