Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 03:35:45 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re: Conor (Was: Help translating AEL) Hi; Rightly or wrongly, I take it as a useful working hypothesis that the placement we hear in the speech of Zahi Hawass may bear a good resemblance to ancient forms of Egyptian. Vowels evidently varied quite a bit with geography and time then, as they do, today. So, I do believe that leaving the vowels aside is probably more conducive to a fair transliteration. If a modern Egyptian were asked to pronounce knr, it would probably sound more like Connor than if we tried to force in artificial vowels. The character of Egyptian is very different from the phonic assumptions we might hear in the speech of, say, a lady in a rural evangelical Sunday School reading from the King James Bible. When I accuse some folks of "listening with an accent", I mean that they hear things that the speaker might not, because of preconditioned linguistic habits. Bob ============================================================================== From: "Thot" To: Subject: RE: AEL Allen Lesson 3: D280a/N41 glyph Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:31:12 -0400 Kate, Indeed D280a was not present in either the basic or extended list of the CCER from which Hierowords draws. I just added it myself and it is now included in the new Hierowords Version 3.4.6 that you can download from: http://home.comcast.net/~thot/ D280a, "pelvis and vulva" is very similar to N41 and N42 which represent wells and in fact others have used the latters as a close approximation for D280a. I do find puzzling that a glyph used to spell the word Hmt (wife) should not appear in the CCER list or being listed by Gardiner himself in his original list. Luca ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:56:39 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Allen Lesson 3: D280a/N41 glyph Hi; Sometimes manuscript use would influence monumental use. I think Ramses IV had to take some official steps to bring the two into line. This could weaken support for the old idea that scribes who worked in one form often had a deficient knowledge of the other. Some signs found in later monumental inscriptions seem to have appeared first as cursive forms. And, when the context to them clearly showed the distinction between two similar signs, scribes were more inclined use a simplification that might send us to the reference books. Bob > > > Gardener on page 456 says N41 can be used as a substitution for "the female > organ", but doesn't list D280a. Gardener uses N41 in his vocabulary list > for "take away" instead of D280a. In fact, I can find no listing or mention > of D280a in Gardener's book...did I miss something? Can I take it that both > are interchangeable as phonograms, ideograms and determinatives without > change in the meaning or word recognition? or is N41 just an ideogram and > determinative, not a phonogram for Hm? They certainly are in the same shape > family. ============================================================================== From: Rhio Barnhart To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Gardiner edition query Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:36:15 -0700 I am using the Allen book as a main text, but would like to purchase an edition of Gardiner as a reference I have seen mention of a 4th edition but the only one currently available to buy is published by the Griffith Institute, 3 Revised edition (January 1957) reprinted 1970(?). Does anyone know if there is indeed a 4th edition in the works? In any case, I assume it would be a reprint and not contain any revised material, given the number of more recent books on the subject. What edition is recommended to purchase? Many thanks, RHB ******************************* Rhio H. Barnhart Head of the Music Department Library Systems Manager for Music University of California, Davis, CA 95616 ******************************* ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:00:33 +0200 From: Richard Watson To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Heart Dear AEL I think that some of you remember me from 200/1. I am Richard Watson and currently I am publishing a book through a local company on philosphy. I was wondering on the title of the cover. The title 'Enter the Heart' is the name of the medium-sized essay-style book. I wanted to know the translation of the title in Egyptian. Could the list please supply me with the glyphs and inscription? I think it is ... ib. Thanks, Richard Watson (duckman@duckman.za.net) ============================================================================== From: "gilbert" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL Gardiner edition query Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:19:41 +0800 When I bought my copy in 2007, it was still the "3rd edition, revised". This 3rd edition, first printed in 1957, was reprinted in 1964, 1966, 1969, 1973, etc (14 reprints altogether) with my edition printed in 2005. I conclude out of that that there is no 4th edition. ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:51:07 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Heart The phrase "He Who Enters the Heart" is from (I believe) P. Berlin 3024, the _Dialog of a Man with his Ba_. ============================================================================== From: "Katherine Griffis" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Gardiner edition query Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:20:15 +0100 Rhio H. Barnhart wrote: I am using the Allen book as a main text, but would like to purchase an edition of Gardiner as a reference I have seen mention of a 4th edition but the only one currently available to buy is published by the Griffith Institute, 3 Revised edition (January 1957) reprinted 1970(?). Does anyone know if there is indeed a 4th edition in the works? In any case, I assume it would be a reprint and not contain any revised material, given the number of more recent books on the subject. What edition is recommended to purchase? As far as I am aware, Gardiner, who died in 1963, wrote only 3 editions of Egyptian Grammar (1927, 1950 and 1957) , but the last version was the Third Edition, Revised with Supplement (1957). The "Supplement" referred to was a separate publication of Gardiner's from 1935, which he incorporated into the Third edition. This last edition of Egyptian Grammar has gone through many reprintings (my copy is from 1982). The most recent reprinting of the revised and supplemented Third Edition, by the Griffith Institute, appears to be 2001, according to Bookfinder.com You can acquire the 1994 reprint of the Third edition at Oxbow books: http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/5288 Not sure where you got the idea of a "fourth edition." This usually implies the book would have new information, and as noted, Gardiner did his final revisions in the Third edition. There was some talk years ago that Allen was basically "rewriting" Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar and I think many people thought he was going to do a new edition of Gardiner's work. However, Allen was not actually expected to do this, and as his 2001 publication, Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs, shows, he's taken a different tack in teaching Middle Egyptian grammar. My opinion is that you could buy any reprint of Gardiner's Third edition, revised with Supplement, and be just fine. HTH. Regards - Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, M. A. (Lon) Doctoral Program (Egyptology) Oriental Studies University of Oxford Oxford, United Kingdom http://www.griffis-consulting.com ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:39:37 -0800 From: Sam_Kimpton To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner edition query Rhio; I have not heard of the fourth edition personally. The third edition revised is still a completely viable grammar in my opinion although many who have tried it report that it requires a somewhat rigorous approach. My feeling on this is that if the student has a real desire to study Egyptian this should constitute no real problem.. I am currently going through Allen and like it. Gardiner, however, served as my introduction to the language and is still a treasured component of my library. In fact I consider it an essential resource for the serious student. So there you have my answer. If you have the opportunity and means to purchase Gardiner do so! Get thee some good dictionaries as well,........vocabulary, vocabulary, vocabulary :) Sam Kimpton ============================================================================== From: "Jim Ashton" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Gardiner edition query Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:08:50 +0100 The 3rd edition is current, though in the reviews on the Amazon site, Brian D. Baird states that a 4th edition is on its way.Unless you are a stickler for absolute perfection, I think the 3rd edition is fine and the 4th edition is unlikely to hold much new material. Gardiner is difficult to learn from, he was a linguist and considered that all his readers would be too (with a good knowledge of Coptic, for example). Allen is better but if you are learning with no knowledge of other languages and their grammar, I would recommend "How to read Egyptian" by Mark Collier and Bill Manley, The British Museum Press, ISBN 978 0 7141 1910 6 This book gives working examples from actual inscriptions and is fun to read. It also comlements Gardiner and Allen through its examples. ==============================================================================