Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:45:00 +0000 From: Malcolm Shawcross To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL sDm n rmT I'm puzzled by a translation in Allen's grammar, paragraph 14.13. m.k nfr sDm n r(m)T "Look, to listen is good for people". Why can't it mean "Look, it is good to listen to the people"? (sDm n is in Gardiner as "to hearken", and it would make a more practical admonition.) The grammar point of the paragraph remains intact. My apologies if this question has already been answered Malcolm Shawcross. ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:32:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Weben Banu Subject: Re: AEL Progressing on a title of Sekhmet- now with pictures! To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hello everyone! My friend was able to mail me a photo copy of the page in his book where the title was, and that has been so helpful! I see now why the pr of zfy pr m Hs Hr hApw Dt.f is not the "pr" of temple- it has the "walking legs" determinitive and is therefore a participle of the verb prj- to emerge! I am assuming that this is an active perfective participial form, though the endings of course are usually not written, but then that begs the question of who this Hes Hra is that the "child" is emerging from! And the Dt lacks the pool hieroglyph with the three dots underneath that would make it "eternity," and instead has a stroke determinative so it is "body" just as Serge Rosmorduc has said. I like the idea that Paula Veiga kindly put forth earlier in this thread, before I had any actual hieroglyphs to share- that the term can sometimes be applied to physicians. You would have to be pretty grim/wild to engage in surgery in a time before anesthetics, after all! Though now that we have the 'glyphs, I can see clearly the deity determinative and this does seem to be an entity- but might he perhaps be another patron of physicians. or Sekhmet in a masculine form? Are there any entries on him in the German dictionaries? Here are the hieroglyphs to the title: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/webenbanu/Digital%20Papyrus/sefiperemheshrahaputchetf.gif So a better translation now seems to be, "The son who has emerged from Hes-Hr(a?), hidden in His body." Fascinating! Now all I need to do is find out who Hes Hr(a?) is, and that may help settle the question of whether the deity in this reference actually is Sekhmet, or someone else. There is another title on the page I was sent, which I am now looking into as well. The titles are really wonderful material for practice, and so interesting and insightful as well! tkA hA r sApwsA r m kAka rmt http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/webenbanu/Digital%20Papyrus/tekaharesapusaremkakaremet.gif I think this is the proper transliteration, though most of these words don't show up in either of my dictionaries! So I am guessing as to the division of words, and they may very well be incorrect. The version Budge gives is pretty much all run together, so I doubt that'll be much help. I'm using Faulkner's Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian and the glossary in back of James P. Allen's Middle Egyptian grammar. Can anyone help me out with the vocabulary? Many thanks, Katherine ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:03:15 +0100 (CET) From: bert_hramm Subject: RE : AEL sDm n rmT To: Ancient Egyptian Language List I'm just a beginner in hieroglyphic studies, but I think that n r(m)T is the agent of a passive form. I have read in WINAND-MALAISE grammar that n was an abreviation of in, which introduces the passive form. In this case, n r(m)T should mean by the people. I assume too that sDm is a transitive verb which doesn't need any preposition before its object. e.g.: sDm zS, listen (to) the scribe. So, following this exemple, listen (to) the people would rather have been sDm r(m)T. I hope it will be the right guess...^^ Bertrand Gajeot Student ============================================================================== From: "Nicole B. Hansen" Subject: Re: AEL sDm n rmT To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:36:25 -0500 (CDT) Martin-Yes, you are right, that is a possible translation, and you will find that translators are divided on how to interpret this. The context doesn't really give us any better idea than the passage by itself does. However in Egyptian, both these things were said in the exact same way, so the meaning may have been just as ambiguous to the ancient Egyptians themselves, unless the phrase was a common one that everyone understood to mean one or the other, so we moderns aren't alone in the confusion. Nicole B. Hansen, Ph.D. Study hieroglyphs online at http://www.glyphdoctors.com ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:52:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Weben Banu Subject: Re: AEL Progressing on a title of Sekhmet- now with pictures! To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Exciting news on the title front! After corresponding with another Egyptologist not on this list, she has suggested that the "Hs" of Hs Hr does not mean wild, fierce, or grim- but rather "favoured." And she has put forward "Favoured of Face" as a title of Hwt-Hr (Hathor). This is really interesting because I remembered hearing about a deity known as mAi Hs- a son of bst (Bast)- whose title was translated for me as "Fierce Lion." But if the translation of Hs as "fierce, wild, or grim" is a misconception begun by Budge and which has continued into modern times- as has been suggested by this Egyptologist- and it should actually be interpreted as "favoured," then this would make mAi Hs the "Favoured Lion." Of course, the gist of it could basically come down to the same thing, if the reason why the lion is given this positive title is to ward off his more ferocious aspects, as sometimes happens with some deities, lol, but it is a very interesting revolution in translation! Checking this in my copy of Faulkner's Concise Dictionary, I do indeed see Hsi at the bottom of page 176 as "favour," and possibly "praise." If this is indeed a reference to Hwt-Hr, then perhaps the phrase zfj pr m Hs Hr is actually a reference to the occasion when sxmt (Sekhmet) "came out of" the body of Hwt-Hr (Hathor), during the Destruction of Mankind myth where she was sent out as Hathor and became Sekhmet after becoming drunk on her bloodlust. And perhaps the phrase hApu Dt.f "hidden in his body" may be a reference to the nature of the Sekhmet deity being hidden within the Hathor deity? Or it could just be a generic cryptic remark underscoring the power of the goddess, lol, but what do you think of these interpretations? Many thanks, Katherine ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Progressing on a title of Sekhmet- now with pictures! Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:52:38 +0100 No, the writing is HsA; that writing and the eye signal you were right in your original "fierce, wild". Also, mAj-HsA is the wild (fierce) lion for sure. It cannot refer to Sekhmet, as it is a male child. I'm pretty sure it refers to the Sun: "Child who comes forth from Fierce-face and who hides himself". HsA-Hr is a god in the Netherworld, and I think to recall he is Apophis (or a similar big snake), who was not only the enemy of the Sun but also rejuvinated that same Sun in the earth -- and that process seems to be rendered by this epithet. Perhaps someone with an edition of the Book of Caverns at hand can tell you more. Aayko ==============================================================================