Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:59:26 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t A.K. Eyma wrote: > **Yes, I too think Boylan's translation of the above epithet > as "Lord of wine who drinks abundantly" is suspect > (can anyone her get that translation out of the MdC?) > It seems to be "Lord of many wine-vessels" , which does > not per se conflict with his sobriety -- no, really! ;) > For Boylan says about nb txy "Lord of Drunkenness", the other > epithet you mention: "as associate of Tefnut of Nubia" (p 189). > He does not further give a clue why he adds that, but I could > imagine the following being the case: Tefnut is the Solar Eye > who went to Nubia in anger, and in some stories it is Thoth > who brings her back, pacifying her with much sweet talk In other > stories the Eye as Sekhmet is pacified by red drink, as all will know > here (Destruction of Mankind, translated on AEL in the past). > In that story it is not Thoth who brews and pours the red fluid, > but perhaps there were late versions who combined the two different > stories into one?? Then Thoth would be lord of wine vessels and > drunkenness as pacifier of the Solar Eye, not as drinker himself. > Just a hunch. What do you think? It sounds like a sort of shaman or diplomat carrying out a genteel sort of "seduction". If Thoth was seen as a master healer, this would have made his knowledge of the the therapeutic effects of wine a certainty, I suppose. But, I thought maybe nb txy with a pot hieroglyph may have been a mistaken transcription of "Lord of the Plummet", as the plummet glyph does bear a resemblance to the nw glyph. Though, if txy really does unambiguously mean "drunkenness", my former guess seems weaker. > Note also that a wordplay between lord of txy (drunkenness) > and other epithets, like txn (ibis) [here the vessel is n(w) and not > det., see p 8-9 and 199] and tx (balance-tongue) [with heart det., > which resembles vessel det., p. 8-9] could have been made. The authors of the myth may be making some tacit statements about balance. The plummet figures into the judgment of the heart scene, and I am wondering if there is a poetic sort of in vino veritas kind of concept with regard to the literary perception of the role of Thoth, as his formulas are sometimes designed to prevent the heart from testifying against its owner. We so often see Thoth recording Anubis' inspection of the heart, and often a baboon atop the scales. Thank you so much, Bob ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:59:32 -0800 (PST) From: Weben Banu Subject: AEL A title of Sekhmet To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hello, everyone! I'm looking into a title which a friend has given me, and trying to make sense of it. It's a title of Sekhmet, and in Budge's "The Gods of the Egyptians" , Vol. 1, p. 519, it is given as: SEFI-PER-EM-HES-HRA-HAPU-TCHET-F . (I do not own a copy of this book, so I'm going off of what my friend tells me, but he says there is a dot over the A in HRA). This is what I have so far: Sefi: Merciful One? nisbe of sf- to be mild or merciful per: house, temple em: in, of Hes-Hra: a place? I can't find it anywhere Hapu: Passive verb form, if the adj Hap- secret, mysterious- can be made into a verb? So, perhaps a translation along the lines of "obscured, veiled"? tchet: Dt= eternity -f: His So I come up with, "Merciful One of the house/temple of Hes-Hra, Veiled in his eternity." Which is odd, because the being in question is a goddess- so why the masculine pronoun? Does anyone come up with something different? Or does anyone know what/where Hes-Hra is? My friend mentioned seeing the term once before in a prayer somewhere which read: "who preserves them from the evil chamber of the souls of Hes-Hra." Looking forward to your ideas! Katherine ============================================================================== From: "George Fowler" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:58:13 -0400 Dear Bob: I had hoped to get your book on Thoth from the library but it turns out that it is not held by any libraries in the province. I'll have to arrange for an inter-library loan. But in the mean-time, thank you for provding the MdC for the quotation. There's only one problem (actually more than one). I thought that I could deal with MdC but reading what you have provided has me shaking my head. I obviously don't know as much as I thought I did. If you can spare the time could you answer the following? 1) What are &&& 2) What is meant by (1*1*1) 3) What is A\R90 or is it N33A\R90 (which is even more incomprehensible) Thanks. Sorry to be so dense. Regards, George ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:13:08 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL A title of Sekhmet Weben Banu a écrit : > > Hello, everyone! > > I'm looking into a title which a friend has given me, > and trying to make sense of it. It's a title of > Sekhmet, and in Budge's "The Gods of the Egyptians" , > Vol. 1, p. 519, it is given as: > SEFI-PER-EM-HES-HRA-HAPU-TCHET-F . (I do not own a > copy of this book, so I'm going off of what my friend > tells me, but he says there is a dot over the A in > HRA). This is what I have so far: > > Sefi: Merciful One? nisbe of sf- to be mild or > merciful > > per: house, temple > > em: in, of > > Hes-Hra: a place? I can't find it anywhere > > Hapu: Passive verb form, if the adj Hap- secret, > mysterious- can be made into a verb? So, perhaps a > translation along the lines of "obscured, veiled"? > > tchet: Dt= eternity > > -f: His > > So I come up with, "Merciful One of the house/temple > of Hes-Hra, Veiled in his eternity." Which is odd, > because the being in question is a goddess- so why the > masculine pronoun? > > Does anyone come up with something different? Or does > anyone know what/where Hes-Hra is? My friend > mentioned seeing the term once before in a prayer > somewhere which read: "who preserves them from the > evil chamber of the souls of Hes-Hra." > > Looking forward to your ideas! > Katherine > > It should be easier with the glyphs : z:f:y-Xrd-pr:r:D54-M-H-s-W14-D6:Hr*1-A40-HA-A-p:W-V6^^^D40-D&&&(t*1)-f Budge says it's from chapter 164 of the Book of the dead, which is part of a list of "additionnal" chapters (162 to 167), of late Ramesside date. Those chapters contain, inter alia, some Meroitic words and names in invocation (it's not the case for this particular expression). If you read French, the journal "Egypte, Afrique et Orient" has devoted an issue on the subject of the Book of the Dead, with an article on the supplementary chapters : A. Wüthrich "D'étranges vocables dans le livre des morts" Egypte, Afrique et Orient 43, p. 57-60 sfy Now, about our text, a few hints. I'm afraid it's less peacefull (thought not utterly violent). Budge gives the correct explanation of the name Hs-Hr, who is apparently a male deity (I would venture maybe a lion), but the Hs in fact a late rendering of H-z:G39, H-s-Aa18-A-D6 "fierce, wild" (WB III, 161). Now, remember the "nfr Hr" construction (which can be used to build names) (for instance nfr Hr = he-beautiful-is-(his)-face, beautiful of face, he whose face is beautiful). sfy as used here is not in Faulkner, But WB IV, 114, list it as "kid, son". D.t is probably to be understood "body", and not "eternity", according to the way it's writen. Best regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:47:36 +0100 >I had hoped to get your book on Thoth from the library but it turns out >that it is not held by any libraries in the province. I'll have to arrange > for an inter-library loan. If you are talking about Boylan's book -- it is for free online at: Patrick Boylan, Thoth, the Hermes of Egypt: a study of some aspects of theological thought in ancient Egypt (1922) http://www.archive.org/details/thoththehermes00boyluoft Unfortunately the books come in very large files... Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:35:10 +0000 From: "Paula Veiga" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL A title of Sekhmet Dear Katherine, being a researcher of Sekhmet myself I can say that the masculine may be used to relate to a personality/deity that has the attributes of a male counterpart, as in being as important as if it was a male. Hatshepsut also was referred in the ancient Egyptian depictions as a 'male' pharaoh. And the name Hes-Hra can refer to a physician (Sekhmet being the patron deity for medicine and cure) and Hesire a known to have existed doctor depicted in the Cairo Museum stone relief. This is what I think without having seen the work you mention. Paula -- Paula Veiga Health and Medicine in Ancient Egypt Lisboa, Portugal Manchester, UK http://orienteantigo.blogspot.com/ http://misr2005.spaces.live.com/ ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:48:23 +0100 (CET) From: bert_hramm Subject: Re: AEL A title of Sekhmet To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hello, If possible, could you tranlitterate this title in "scxientific quotation". I asked you this, because of the term "HES-HRA". The "H" could be translitterated h, H, x or X; the "S" s or S; and the "A" a or A. I do not know the name HES-HRA, and I don't think there's much homonyms of it; but it would be easier to search in an egyptian dictionnary with the exact translitteration. Asfor the pronoun "F", it may be related to "Per", which is a masculin word in egyptian. Regards, Bertrand Gajeot ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL A title of Sekhmet Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:59:08 +0100 Dear Katherine, >I'm looking into a title which a friend has given me, >and trying to make sense of it. It's a title of >Sekhmet, and in Budge's "The Gods of the Egyptians" , >Vol. 1, p. 519, it is given as: >SEFI-PER-EM-HES-HRA-HAPU-TCHET-F . It is hard to come up with a translation of a transcribed phrase, even if in proper MdC, as determinatives etc are so very important. It becomes virtually impossible when the transcription is in an outdated and ideosyncratic manner as Budge's. You will need to get the hieroglyphs (someone will have the book here, I'm sure (*)). Unless someone happens to know an epithet that looks a bit like it. Aayko Eyma (*) They are online, but I did not check the page: -- E. A. Wallis Budge, The Gods of the Egyptians or Studies in Egyptian Mythology, vol. 1, London, 1904. xxiii, 525 pp., 49 col. pls. - pdf-file (33.9 MB) http://library.case.edu/ksl/ecoll/books/budgod00/budgod00e.html -- E. A. Wallis Budge, The Gods of the Egyptians or Studies in Egyptian Mythology, vol. 2, London, 1904. ix, 431 pp., 49 col. pls. - pdf-file (48.2 MB) http://library.case.edu/ksl/ecoll/books/budgod01/budgod01e.html ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:27:05 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t George Fowler wrote: > > Dear Bob: > > I had hoped to get your book on Thoth from the library but it turns > out that it is not held by any libraries in the province. I'll have > to arrange for an inter-library loan. > > But in the mean-time, thank you for provding the MdC for the > quotation. There's only one problem (actually more than one). I > thought that I could deal with MdC but reading what you have provided > has me shaking my head. I obviously don't know as much as I thought I > did. If you can spare the time could you answer the following? > > 1) What are &&& Default ligature > 2) What is meant by (1*1*1) A horizontally compressed version of Z2 > 3) What is A\R90 or is it N33A\R90 (which is even more incomprehensible) N33A rotated 90 degrees to set it vertical > > Thanks. Sorry to be so dense. > > Regards, > > George > Hi; I am so sorry for the confusion. Since Prof. Rosmorduc regularly posts announcements of the release of new versions of his open source and rather state of the art MdC engine, JSesh, I posted in JSesh MdC, as it is the only hieroglyphic word processor I use, at the moment. I use an older version than the latest because I prefer some of the older glyphs and then drop a few of the newer ones into the font tool. But, the newer versions have many glyphs from the Extended List, making a switch to Perfect Glyph or something like that unnecessary for me. Since the list does not permit attachments, I shall send an image file of the epithet to your mailbox. Thanks for helping to clear that up. Best regards, Bob ============================================================================== From: "Katherine Griffis" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL A title of Sekhmet Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:21:34 -0000 Aayko wrote: Concerning the epithet: >SEFI-PER-EM-HES-HRA-HAPU-TCHET-F . It is hard to come up with a translation of a transcribed phrase, even if in proper MdC, as determinatives etc are so very important. It becomes virtually impossible when the transcription is in an outdated and ideosyncratic manner as Budge's. You will need to get the hieroglyphs (someone will have the book here, I'm sure (*)). Unless someone happens to know an epithet that looks a bit like it. In glyphs, it's O34:I9:Z4-A17-O1:D21:D54-Aa15-V28-S29-W14-D6:D2*Z1-A40-M16-G1-Q3:Z7-V6:D40-I 10:X1*Z1-I9, according to the GOTE. Leitz transliterates the primary portion of the epithet as /sf-pr-m-HsA-Hr/, which translates as =93the Child, who therefore comes out with a grim face=94 (Leitz 2002, 6: 297b). He dates the epithet to Late and Greco-Roman periods, with the function stated as relating to the Ba who appears with a grim face before the Ennead (/bA-HsA-Hr-m-xnw-psDt/). The epithet doesn't seem to specifically refer to Sekhmet, however, which is one reason not to trust Budge's GOTE very much. I suspect Budge considered it an epithet of the goddess since she probably would have appeared before the Ennead after destroying mankind with a grim face. Reference: Leitz, C., Ed. 2002. Lexikon der A"gyptischen Go"tter und Go"tterbezeichungen. (8 Vol.) Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta 113. Leuven: Peeters. Hope this assists. Regards =96 Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, M. A. (Lon) Doctoral Program (Egyptology) Oriental Studies University of Oxford Oxford, United Kingdom http://www.griffis-consulting.com ==============================================================================