From: "R Lloyd" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Mummy's Curse Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 07:49:24 PST A question a little of the subject of hieroglyphs - There has always been a debate over whether or not Howard Carter's mummy curse was real or just show. Was there really a curse? How are "curse writings" constructed? Any examples? rilloyd ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:05:16 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk (Ancient Egyptian Language List) Subject: Re: AEL Manual de Codage, seeing hieroglyph What I was looking for, was characters to use when using emai(ASCII) . example: h with a dot under it was represented as H , or that the character "a" represented as an arm rather than someother a would be represented by "<" It was brought to my attention that the Manuel de Codage was the way to go, I found some of the to use in Lesson 3 of the AEL site, However I noticed that other characters were not included. Can someone provide these or would the Demo version of Glyph cover all that are needed. Barbara Petersen nordpete@webtv.net ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:13:31 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Transliterations In a message dated 98-03-09 13:33:06 EST, you write: << For example with the word "nfr" (good) would traditionally be transliterated "nefer", but using Swahil othography, you could transliterate it "nfuri" (The Swahili word for good is "Nzuri"). >> Yet Coptic shows the pronunciation of "nfr" to probably have been closer to "noufe" due to the disappearance of the Egyptian /r/ in vocalization (and sometimes spelling) of words. Sorry, but I can't see much benefit in your suggestions. Andre Renouf ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 14:12:49 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Manual de Codage, seeing hieroglyph Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen wrote: > It was brought to my attention that the Manuel de Codage was the way to > go, I found some of the to use in Lesson 3 of the AEL site, However I > noticed that other characters were not included. Can someone provide > these or would the Demo version of Glyph cover all that are needed. I'm not sure what else you were looking for - that table covers all the sounds represented in the Egyptian language. WinGlyph uses this method, plus extra stuff for representing the placement of the signs (the demo version is the same as the full version except it drwas a line through eash sign). -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Nicholas,Patrizia Myall" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL exercise for beginners Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:12:11 +0100 Dear rene and all, I had a bit of time, so I tried to do Gardiner's 2 exercise, to anticipate the discussion. 1 wbn ra m Axt The sun rises in the horizon. 2 Dd s gr s.t When the man speaks the woman is silent. 3 xd sS m dpx.t r niw.t tn The scribe fares downstream to this town. 4 sDm sS pn n ptH This scribe hearken to Ptah. 5 iw ra m pt Hna iaH The sun is in the sky together with the moon. 6 xm sS ky sxr The scibe doesn't know another plan. 7 hA dpt pn r S iw niw.t m rSw.t When this boat descend to the lake,the town is joyous(could I translate like this?) 8 sDm nDs pn rn This commoner heards the name. 9 iw ky s m pr pn Another man is in this house. Ciao a tutti Patrizia Di Paolo ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 20:05:02 -0500 From: "Jeffrey J. Berns" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Manual de Codage, seeing hieroglyph What I think your looking for can be found in the transliteration font available from http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/ccer_newton.html Here the regular Egyptian transliteration symbols are mapped onto keyboard characters.  For example, typing a lower case "d" shows up as an italic lower case "d" (i.e. the hand).  Typing an upper case "D" shows up as an italic lower case "d" with an underscore (i.e. the cobra). Yet, if you change the font back to, say Times Roman, or if it is displayed in a non-HTML e-mail reader, you would see only "d" and "D". This is a bit of an obtuse explanation.  But by way of example, the tag line on this e-mail, in the transliteration font appears as: nfr sDm nb.i (anx wDa snb) nfr sDm nb.i (anx wDa snb) Jeffrey J. Berns bernsj@erols.com ============================================================================== Subject: Re: AEL Transliterations From: Mr G. Haines To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:21:19 +0000 In reply to my message: ><< For example with the word "nfr" (good) would traditionally be > transliterated "nefer", but using Swahil othography, you could transliterate > it "nfuri" (The Swahili word for good is "Nzuri"). >> Andre Renouf wrote: >Yet Coptic shows the pronunciation of "nfr" to probably have been closer to >"noufe" due to the disappearance of the Egyptian /r/ in vocalization (and >sometimes spelling) of words. Sorry, but I can't see much benefit in your >suggestions. Question: how do you know that the Coptic word "noufe" equates to the AE word "nfr"? > ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:54:58 +0000 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Tony Gist Subject: Re: AEL Beginners Lessons In article <350285C5.2890461A@danny33.demon.co.uk>, Geoff Ponton writes >I'm feeling rather concerned about the discussion on Ancient Egyptian >for beginners. For me (and, I once thought, for everyone) the pleasure >of learning some Egyptian is the use and appreciation of hieroglyphs - >learning Egyptian should be an aesthetic pleasure and there's no >aesthetic pleasure in transliteration. I entirely agree with the above sentiments. I realise that we all have to be able to understand transliteration but is there a method where we can interactively learn Ancient Egyptian using hieroglyphs? >Egyptian is hieroglyphs and beginners need hieroglyphs! What to do about >this? It's a problem and I'd like to hear suggestions. One solution >would be to have a beginner's web site but this would need someone with >the time and expertise to set it up and maintain it. I realise there is a number of introductory web sites but there appears, from a beginners perspective, a giant void between the content of the web sites what is discussed on this list. Help please! >Bring back the hieroglyphs! Tony Gist ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:33:29 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL sitting? Westland@netcomuk.co.uk 'ecrit : > >I have recently read that the sitting figure classifies the person as among the gods and that it therefore is usually shown as part of the written name of Eygptian deities and is displayed among the hieroglyphs written over their sketched portraits. Could anyone explain the significance of this sitting figure or the sitting position, the why and wherefore of its uses etc, any information would be received gratefully...thank you Julie. I suppose you mean the A50 or A51 sign ? "the bearded man sitting on a chair ?" The chair is in fact a throne, an the character can even hold a scepter. This classifies the character as a divine being. The sign is not used, however, as a determinative for "normal" gods. I think the determinative is more or less used for people who are, or should be, 'subject of a funerary cult'. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:37:11 -0800 From: Jeremy Krall To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Translation Question Hello all, This is my first time using this system and I am really in some dire need of help, so please respond if possible. I came upon a web page a few months back and found a very strange phrase on the page, "Iman Ta". Never before had I heard of this phrase and I questioned the validity from the source. She maintained that "Iman Ta" referred to the hidden world inside our souls, comparing it relatively to Duat. I therefore went on and questioned many egyptologists from NA schools, European schools, and Egyptian based schools. None had heard of the phrase and instead thought it might have been a precursor to other words. I therefore returned as skeptical as ever to the source, who dug some more herself and this is what she found. "Imen" (Iman, Imun) was used prior to Amun (Amon,Amen) meaning hidden or the hidden one. "Iment" did refer to Duat and the hidden world, or land below the horizon between night and day. Another word that is relatively similar in sound and meaning may be Amentet. So I ask you all if you can help, what is the true meaning. Is there a literal translation of "Iman Ta"? Is their a meaning behind the word and did it even exist at all? I am familiar with the Islamic meaning but that is not the case here. Thank you all very much. Jeremy ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk'" Subject: AEL AW: AEL Translation Question Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 20:18:20 +-100 Hallo Jeremy, >I came upon a web page a few months back and found a very strange phrase on the page, "Iman Ta". Never before had I heard of this phrase and I questioned the validity from the source. She maintained that "Iman Ta" referred to the hidden world inside our souls, comparing it relatively to Duat. I therefore returned as skeptical as ever to the source, who dug some more herself and this is what she found. "Imen" (Iman, Imun) was used prior to Amun (Amon,Amen) meaning hidden or the hidden one. "Iment" did refer to Duat and the hidden world, or land below the horizon between night and day. Another word that is relatively similar in sound and meaning may be Amentet. ****I share your scepsis. I doubt this was really an Ancient Egyptian phrasing? Your source mixes up three things IMHO: 1) Imn - being the Egyptian form of Amun Whether his name derives from (2) is not certain; there is also a word imn ="create" which perhaps would also qualify? 2) imn = "secret, hidden" imn.t = "secret place" 3) imn.t = the West (where the sun sets, and 'thus' also the place of the dead) from imn = right hand ('right side' and 'west' being connected in the Egyptian orientation) So (3) and (2), differently written, are not connected, unless by wordplay. Imenet indeed refers to the Duat, but not as hidden place but as western place. And making at a 'hidden' place *in our souls* seems a total New Age-ism to me. 'Hidden land' would also not be Iman Ta, but t3 imn (ta imen). Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:50:13 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Transliterations In a message dated 98-03-10 14:58:50 EST, you write: << Andre Renouf wrote: >Yet Coptic shows the pronunciation of "nfr" to probably have been closer to >"noufe" due to the disappearance of the Egyptian /r/ in vocalization (and >sometimes spelling) of words. Sorry, but I can't see much benefit in your >suggestions. Question: how do you know that the Coptic word "noufe" equates to the AE word "nfr"? >> It is a fairly obvious conclusion: a) It is used in Coptic texts with the same intent as "nfr" is in Egyptian texts b) One does not have to stretch ones imagination much to see that "nfr" could easily have become vocalised as "noufe". Now let me tell you a story. Years ago in London I was asked to listen to a recording. I have seen it written that Coptic died out as a spoken language hundreds of years ago but this is not strictly the case. Prior to the Second World War there were still a few people in Upper Egypt who spoke this language --outside of church. A philologist--and now I could kick myself for not writing down his name and putting it in a place where I would never lose it--actually recorded some old people speaking Coptic. I was asked to listen to the tape because of my background, not because I am an expert in Coptic. Just believe me, if someone had turned on this recording and said to me "Guess what language this is", I would have replied "Chinese?" All I can give you now is my impressions about this tape. The philologist said in Arabic to the Copts not to use the Coptic pronunciation from church--just the everyday one. All I can recall is what sounded like some very nasal utterances--of which I understood not one word, of course. The only thing I got out of the whole recording was the word "noufe" because, at one point, one of the men laughed and asked of the philologist "Noufe, eh?"-- meaning "Well, was that brilliant enough for you, then?" Andre Renouf ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:10:00 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL exercise for beginners Dear Patrizia, Brava! You have done an admirable job without question. A couple of comments: << 1 wbn ra m Axt The sun rises in the horizon. I suppose you are writing r< as ra. Just clarifying for those out there. I would have said "The sun shines on the horizon". 2 Dd s gr s.t When the man speaks the woman is silent. Absolutely correct. One can also have "When a man speaks, a woman is silent" Oh, for the good old days! 3 xd sS m dpx.t r niw.t tn The scribe fares downstream to this town. 4 sDm sS pn n ptH This scribe hearken to Ptah. 5 iw ra m pt Hna iaH The sun is in the sky together with the moon. 6 xm sS ky sxr The scibe doesn't know another plan. 7 hA dpt pn r S iw niw.t m rSw.t When this boat descend to the lake,the town is joyous(could I translate like this?) Yes. You could also have said "When the boat goes down to the lake" 8 sDm nDs pn rn This commoner heards the name. Yes, he is a "poor man". Might as well get the English right, too--"hears the name" 9 iw ky s m pr pn Another man is in this house. >> Righto! Don't forget, people, that "ky" comes before the noun. Now try those English phrases. I'll write them out later for those without Gardiner who want to have a go translitering them using the vocabulary Patrizia has got above. Andre Renouf ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:37:49 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Translation Question It would be much easier to answer if we had a published source example of the hieroglyphs. Can you cite exact examples so that some of us can look at the original in its context? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne, Australia >Hello all, > >This is my first time using this system and I am really in some dire >need of help, so please respond if possible. > >I came upon a web page a few months back and found a very strange phrase >on the page, "Iman Ta". Never before had I heard of this phrase and I >questioned the validity from the source. She maintained that "Iman Ta" >referred to the hidden world inside our souls, comparing it relatively >to Duat. I therefore went on and questioned many egyptologists from NA >schools, European schools, and Egyptian based schools. None had heard >of the phrase and instead thought it might have been a precursor to >other words. > >I therefore returned as skeptical as ever to the source, who dug some >more herself and this is what she found. "Imen" (Iman, Imun) was used >prior to Amun (Amon,Amen) meaning hidden or the hidden one. "Iment" did >refer to Duat and the hidden world, or land below the horizon between >night and day. Another word that is relatively similar in sound and >meaning may be Amentet. > >So I ask you all if you can help, what is the true meaning. Is there a >literal translation of "Iman Ta"? Is their a meaning behind the word >and did it even exist at all? I am familiar with the Islamic meaning >but that is not the case here. > >Thank you all very much. >Jeremy ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:18:18 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Gardiner's Exercise Here are the sentences that Gardiner gives on pages 37 and 38. They are to be transliterated into Egyptian. As I said before, anyone is welcome to try these by using the vocabulary in Patrizia's last message. 1. The scribe goes down into another boat 2 Ptah knows this counsel 3. (When) this poor man fares downstream to the city, the house is in joy 4. The moon rises in the sky 5. The scribe is silent by day and by night (render: in day, in night) 6. This land is in joy (when) Re goes down into the bark 7. A pool is in this city 8. This woman hearkens to the scribe (read "listens" for "hearkens") 9. A man is there in the house Those things in parenthesis do not get translated. In other words #6 would be "This land is in joy Re goes down into the bark". This is a little like the English "We will all be better off come the Revolution". One person need not do all the sentences. Just select one or two. Of course, it would be best to attempt them all. Each one has a point to make and a lesson to teach. Andre Renouf ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:50:40 +0000 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Tony Gist Subject: Re: AEL exercise for beginners In article <199803092212.XAA02008@alfa.it>, Nicholas,Patrizia Myall writes >Dear rene and all, I had a bit of time, so I tried to do Gardiner's 2 >exercise, to anticipate the discussion. Please, if we are going to begin an introductory series of lessons lets start at lesson one. However, the problem is of course is that not everyone has access to Gardiner's work. Moreover, from what I have gleaned from the list so far Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar is not the ideal book to start from. Is it possible for us to decide what book, text, web page we will start from - but lets assume no prior knowledge. It would be great to this up and running. Tony Gist ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:59:23 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Transliterations Mr G. Haines 'ecrit : > > > Question: how do you know that the Coptic word "noufe" equates to the AE > word "nfr"? First, coptic descend from ancient egyptian without a doubt. We have even texts in what is called "old coptic", which is in fact demotic - or even middle egyptian - transcribed in Greek. This occurs in a number of cases as gloses for hieratic texts. We have side by side the text in hieratic and a transliteration (of the pronunciation) in greek characters. This was probably an attempts to render the vowels for proper recitation. Second, there are phonetic rules, which we can see at work on ancient egyptian itself. For example, the verb "to drink" was first written swr, then swri, and finaly swi. What was happening was that final 'r' was becoming a vowel. swri is what is called "historical writting" : a word keep old letters in its writting, whereas they are no more pronounced. For example, the french name "Lefebvre" keeps in its writing the 'b' from the latin 'faber', but is pronounced "Lefevre". So, the same phenomenon that applied to swr applied to nfr (and to ir, BTW). The orthography of Late Egyptian and the errors made by ramesside scribes are very informative on this kind of evolutions. As a matter of fact, in late egyptian, the sign for 'r' was sometimes used in places where you would expect an 'i', in particular for the 'protetic yod'. A side remark about this is that ancient egyptian often had a tendency to write what they heard, even in the middle kingdom. Sinouhe B (probably. well, the middle kingdom manuscript, not one ramesside copy) manuscript, for example, contains numerous sentences where a preposition like 'm' or 'r' is omitted after or before a word ending or beginning with the same letter. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:02:14 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL exercise for beginners In a message dated 98-03-11 19:21:35 EST, you write: << Please, if we are going to begin an introductory series of lessons lets start at lesson one. However, the problem is of course is that not everyone has access to Gardiner's work. Moreover, from what I have gleaned from the list so far Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar is not the ideal book to start from. Is it possible for us to decide what book, text, web page we will start from - but lets assume no prior knowledge. It would be great to this up and running. >> Dear Tony, The trouble with Excercise I in Gardiner is that there are no glyphs to transliterate or translate--just English phrases. So Patrizia began with the next exercise that has all the vocabulary from Lesson I. Tony, it really doesn't get more elementary than Exercise II. If you study Patrizia's transliteration and translation you will learn some very important things. The next trouble is that a mailing list like this is not the ideal place for beginners to learn the Egyptian language. There is not much we can do about this. But it is a lot better than nothing. No, everybody does not have Gardiner, but in my opinion, it is a very good book and I know nothing that can beat his beginning lessons. Perhaps one day soon someone will put a simple text on the website so everybody will be able to refer to the same thing. But, for now, why not try to follow along and ask as many questions as you need to do? Andre Renouf ============================================================================== From: "Troy Sagrillo" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Transliterations Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:36:31 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Mr G. Haines To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: donderdag 12 maart 1998 2:34 Subject: Re: AEL Transliterations >This brings us back to the Question of Ancient Egyptian. The suggestion that >I am making is that we devlop an orthography of AEL based on the spelling of >a current African language, such as Kiswahili. The idea of this is that we >would use just the ordinary character set found on most computers. This >would make the the AEL much easier to type and send e-mails two and fro. Let me see if I have this correct.... Earlier you wrote: -----Original Message----- From: Mr G. Haines To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: maandag 9 maart 1998 21:06 Subject: AEL Transliterations >Suggested proceedure. >1. Download all the on-line dictionaries that you can find, Akadian, Hebrew, >Kikongo, Ethopian etc. >2. Search the dictionaries for each AEL word, to establish a possible >vocalisation. So what you are suggesting is that rank beginners in the study of ancient Egyptian basically learn Akkadian, Hebrew (Biblical I assume), "Ethiopian" (Which? Ge`ez, Amharic? one of the many other Ethiopic languages?), Kikongo, Swahili, and God knows what else, *just* to "make the AEL much easier to type and send e-mails two and fro"?????? While comparative historical linguistics is all well and good, I seriously don't think anyone really need go to all this trouble for the purposes of learning Egyptian. The Manual de Codage system for transliteration works just fine, though it is best if a student has a copy of the actual hieroglyphic text as well (and there are sources for these on-line or in a number of books). This is certainly much easier that learning languages that are only distantly related to Egyptian (or not at all in the case of Swahili (a Niger-Congo language, not Afro-Asiatic like Egyptian)). If a student needs to know just what the Manual de Codage format is, there is a table that lists the codes for transliteration at: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/names/names.html And all the required signs are in standard ASCII. Moreover, students *must* learn the traditional transliteration in order to use the standard dictionaries, grammars, and other printed resources, as well as to communicate with others, who I assure you, will not have even thought of even trying to transliterate Egyptian according to Swahili phonology. Transliteration is just a fact of life with regard to the study of Egyptian, but it is one of the easier aspects of learning the language (and just be happy it isn't Akkadian! ;-) ). Mr. Haines also wrote: -----Original Message----- From: Mr G. Haines To: Ancient Egyptian Language List This proceedure involves working backwards from languages whose >pronounciations are known, using the comparative method to reconstruct >earlier forms. Most of our information about the oldest states of language >derives from this method, but the further back in time we travel, the less >reliable phonetic deductions are likely to be. True, but using languages from totally unrelated language families to make "reliable phonetic deductions" is not very reliable. Since ancient Egyptian is an Afro-Asiatic language, it seems rather pointless to apply the phonetic system of a language from the Niger-Congo language family (Swahili), just in the same way it would be rather pointless to apply the phonetic system of an Indo-European language. >The question is, if a roman script orthography of AEL is to be devised, what >language should be taken as a model? The idea which immediately comes to >mind is copic, but this is very heavily influenced by Greek. Another choice, >might be current Egyptian arabic, spelled like an African language. At least Coptic *is* Egyptian, albeit in a very late form and written in Greek characters. The Egyptian dialect of Arabic (or any other dialect of Arabic) is only distantly related. >The suggestion I am making is that AEL is pronounced like Swahili Why? What evidence it there? >However, I have found a web site called "The Kiswahili-Bantu Research Unit >for the Advancement of the Ancient Egyptian Language", which claims that the >AEL "pr sp nfr", transliterates to Swahili "ipiwa Saaipo nafura". ("What a >happy occasion") They say they have "incontrovertible evidence through >linguistic studies that the Ancient Egyptians spoke the Kiswahili-Bantu >language of East, Central and Southern Africa". > >This is unfortunately, eyewash: Kiswahili and AEL have different grammatical >structures. Not to mention vocabulary. >The suggestion is, that those on the AEL list construct an on-line >dictionary for their own use, sending e-mails to and fro, etc. Although the >resulting "spoken AEL" would be ficticious, it would be make it much easier >to learn and remember the hieroglypic system. See my comments above regarding the ability to use published dictionaries and grammars, and the need to communicate with other scholars who most certainly will not know this intensely personal "transliteration" system. Seems like a lot of very hard work to re-invent something that is already adequately available now. Moreover, I think you are missing the entire point of just what transliteration is for. It is *not* intended to be an accurate reflection of how ancient Egyptian was *spoken*, but rather a scholarly convention for putting the basic skeleton of Egyptian orthography in to the Latin alphabet. Yes, it is somewhat related to how Egyptian may have been spoken, but not entirely. Additionally, it must be remembered that Egyptian sounded differently at various points in its history, but transliteration only minimally takes this into consideration. Best regards to all, Troy Sagrillo ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:28:19 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL exercise for beginners Tony Gist wrote: > Please, if we are going to begin an introductory series of lessons lets > start at lesson one. However, the problem is of course is that not > everyone has access to Gardiner's work. Moreover, from what I have > gleaned from the list so far Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar is not the > ideal book to start from. I would recommend - once again - that James Hoch's _Middle Egyptian Grammar_ is much better to learn from. It is written entirely from the standpoint of teaching/learning Egyptian, and it takes into acount the advances in our knowledge of Egyptian over the past 50 years. Only chapters 1 - 12 of Gardiner are much good for learning from, especially if you're trying to do it on your own. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL exercise for beginners Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:58:45 -0000 If you cannot afford to buy Gardiner`s Grammar, can you not get it through your local library (inter-library loan if need be) ? A less expensive book is Introducing Egyptian hieroglyphs by Barbara watterson Scottish Academic Press Ltd ISBN: 0 7073 0267 6 She has also published More about Egyptian hieroglyphs ISBN: 0 7073 0362 1 These explain the basics very well for beginners. Mark V nsw-bit@msn.com ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:10:40 -0500 From: "Oscar H. Blayton" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Comparative Reconstruction Mr G. Haines wrote: > > Comparative Reconstruction. > > This proceedure involves working backwards from languages whose > pronounciations are known, using the comparative method to reconstruct > earlier forms. Most of our information about the oldest states of language > derives from this method, but the further back in time we travel, the less > reliable phonetic deductions are likely to be. > ========================================= Cheikh Anta Diop, the late Senegalese linguist did quite a bit of work with Compative Reconstruction of AEL using Coptic and Walaf [a type of West African "lingua franca"] and it seems that this type of approach will eventually lead to a better understanding of the pronunciation of AEL, and of the language itself. I hope this is not off subject. Oscar -- OSCAR H. BLAYTON ATTORNEY AT LAW, INC. 2 EATON STREET, SUITE 708 HAMPTON, VIRGINIA 23669 TELEPHONE (757) 722-4068 FAX (757) 722-4179 E-MAIL: BLAYTON_LAW@SPRYNET.COM ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:42:41 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL exercise for beginners Mark Vygus wrote: > A less expensive book is > > Introducing Egyptian hieroglyphs > by > Barbara watterson This is quite good, but is a little short on exercises, and doesn't advance very far. > More about Egyptian hieroglyphs > ISBN: 0 7073 0362 1 This is not as easy to follow as the first one, and has the same shortage of exercises compared tot the amount of material covered. Unfortunately, when last I checked, it is currently out of print. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: Hiram Patterson To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL exercise for beginners Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:18:43 -0600 > ---------- > From: Stephen Fryer[SMTP:sfryer@prcn.org] > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 1998 11:28 AM > To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > Subject: Re: AEL exercise for beginners > > I would recommend - once again - that James Hoch's _Middle Egyptian > Grammar_ is much better to learn from. It is written entirely from > the standpoint of teaching/learning Egyptian, and it takes into acount > the advances in our knowledge of Egyptian over the past 50 years. > Only chapters 1 - 12 of Gardiner are much good for learning from, > especially if you're trying to do it on your own. > I agree. I have both Gardiner's and Hoch's books and have been using the latter since December. Aside from costing half as much as Gardiner, it is written as a true teaching textbook. It has 16 chapters, each with a vocabulary and an exercise which includes transliteration and translation of hieroglyphic text and transliteration of English textand writing into heiroglyphs. It also has an Egyptian vocabulary appendices on verb forms and verbal instructions. Most important, it has an answer key! They are both valuable in different ways but Hoch's is more user friendly. I would also recommend taking one of the Oriental Institute's hieroglyphic courses as a complement to self-study. Hiram Patterson ARCE - N. Texas ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: Weni Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:00:24 -0000 Are we still interested in translating the Weni Text, or has the group given up ? Mark V nsw-bit@msn.com ============================================================================== From: Tokapu Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:26:52 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL re: Wheeler's response, Imn-t Friends, I am the writer of the of the Web Site which had the Iman Ta posting in= =0Aquestion, Walk Like An Egyptian, A Modern Guide to the Religion and Ph= ilosophy=0Aof Ancient Egypt. I have enjoyed the various responses to the= question=0Aposted. It is a little bit premature, however, to label as "New Agism" the Egypti= an=0Aunderstanding of the human soul. If Egyptian spiritual training is "= New Age"=0Athen it is in the form of a renaissance, and not something "wa= cky" as was=0Aimplied in the statement. If you have not yet understood th= at Osiris=0Arepresents the mystery of the human soul within, then indeed,= the Egyptian=0Amaterial will seem dense and symbolically impenetrable. A= ll true mystery=0Ateaching works that way. Once the place of Osiris is es= tablished, the=0Aremainder of the pantheon have natural, logical places a= nd meanings within the=0AEgyptian world. The symbolism of the horizon, and that unreachable place below the horizo= n, as=0Athe inner dimension of human psychic, emotional and religious exp= erience reach=0Aback to the Neolithic and have survivors in every mytholo= gy of mankind. The=0Aconservatism of ancient Egypt kept this lovely symb= olism functional through=0Aall its generations. The survival of this symb= olism even in the South American=0Asystems suggests that it is perhaps hu= manity=92s oldest religious gesture and=0Aspiritual thought, reaching bac= k even to the days of the great hunts on the=0Aopen plains. The Egyptians also enjoyed puns, visual as well as verbal. Osiris is refe= rred=0Ato as =91That Great Thing In The Western Horizon" which can also b= e read as=0A"That Great Thing in the Hidden Place." The mystery of the ho= rizon is, indeed,=0Athe only mystery large enough to encompass humanity= =92s profoundest realization,=0Athat of the horizons and dimensions withi= n each human being and their reality. Ramona Louise Wheeler http://members.aol.com/tokapu/walkle01.htm ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 01:34:40 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Gardiner Exercise Hopefully, some of you have attempted to translate the English phrases found on the bottom of page 37 and top of page 38 of Gardiner into Egyptian If you did, and want to know how you fared, here is my transliteration. 1. h3 sS m kt dpt "The scribe goes down into another boat" Since "dpt" is feminine, we use "kt" instead of "ky" for "another. 2. rx ptH sxr pn "Ptah knows this counsel" 3. xd nDs pn r niwt, iw pr m rSwt "(When) this poor man fares downstream to the city, the house is in joy" Do you understand that the second part of the phrase is really "it's house in joy"? 4. wbn i From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Re: Weni Sorry Mark (and other Weni-philes). I am reading and noting the contributions, but don't have the time to study them in detail and respond. Unfortunately I am at my busiest time of the year teaching at the university. Geoff has been busy with the EEF (and his studies), and is now on vacation (?). Not sure about the other diehards, but perhaps they are in an equally frantic state. In another 3 weeks I should have more time. Best wishes, Mike D-S >Are we still interested in translating the Weni Text, or has the group given >up ? > >Mark V nsw-bit@msn.com ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:54:42 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner Exercise Dear Andre, Thank you for your kind help with this lesson. I have a question about the use of the particle iw. I can see that you use it when it is a non-verbal sentence, but when you do have a verb, iw can still be used depending on the verb form. > > 5. gr sS m hrw m grH > > "The scribe is silent by day and by night" Isn't it the case that when you start a claus with a verb, it means "May the scribe be silent by day and by night" ? Maybe I am jumping too far ahead at this stage, but I remember when I did these exercises the first time, I was a little confused about Gardiner's the use of iw. Would it be possible to write "iw gr sS m hrw m grH" for "The scribe is silent by day and by night"? Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:13:17 +0000 From: Westland@netcomuk.co.uk To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Comparative Reconstruction Oscar H. Blayton wrote: > > Mr G. Haines wrote: > > > > Comparative Reconstruction. > > > > This proceedure involves working backwards from languages whose > > pronounciations are known, using the comparative method to reconstruct > > earlier forms. Most of our information about the oldest states of language > > derives from this method, but the further back in time we travel, the less > > reliable phonetic deductions are likely to be. > > > ========================================= > > Cheikh Anta Diop, the late Senegalese linguist did quite a bit of work > with Compative Reconstruction of AEL using Coptic and Walaf [a type of > West African "lingua franca"] and it seems that this type of approach > will eventually lead to a better understanding of the pronunciation of > AEL, and of the language itself. > > I hope this is not off subject. > > Oscar > > > -- > OSCAR H. BLAYTON > ATTORNEY AT LAW, INC. > 2 EATON STREET, SUITE 708 > HAMPTON, VIRGINIA 23669 > TELEPHONE (757) 722-4068 > FAX (757) 722-4179 > E-MAIL: BLAYTON_LAW@SPRYNET.COM > > > Now this interests me immensely, could you possibly give my more information on this and maybe point me in the direction of websites etc or books that deal with this, especially in relation to AE. I've often wondered in Hebrew could offer us any clues, does this strike a chord with anyone????? I'd be grateful for any feedback onthis at all... thankyou Julie. ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 10:13:10 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner Exercise In a message dated 98-03-14 08:56:53 EST, you write: << > > 5. gr sS m hrw m grH > > "The scribe is silent by day and by night" Isn't it the case that when you start a claus with a verb, it means "May the scribe be silent by day and by night" ? Maybe I am jumping too far ahead at this stage, but I remember when I did these exercises the first time, I was a little confused about Gardiner's the use of iw. Would it be possible to write "iw gr sS m hrw m grH" for "The scribe is silent by day and by night"? >> Well, it doesn't necessarily imply "may", although it could. But your question is excellent because everybody is usually confused about this. Perhaps, after all this time, I am, as well. I can only tell you all what Gardiner says about it on page 36. Let us use his example "wbn r< m pt" or "the sun rises in the sky". Gardiner says: "In their particular contexts any of the following renderings may be legitimate:" wbn r< m pt The sun rises in the sky The sun rose in the sky The sun will rise in the sky When the sun rises in the sky When the sun rose in the sky If the sun rose in the sky Let the sun rise in the sky That the sun may (might) rise in the sky Now for just "r< m pt" The sun is in the sky The sun was in the sky Let the sun be in the sky When the sun is (was, will be) in the sky The sun being in the sky(circumstantial), etc. Then: "When, however, a sentence with an adverbial predicate like the last one is introduced by "iw", the range of possible meaning is narrower, and almost confined to main clauses embodying an assertion; thus we obtain: iw r< m pt The sun is in the sky The sun was in the sky but also to express an emphatic contrast: whereas the sun is (was) in the sky Gardiner says on page 35: "To introduce (sentences with adverbial predicate) the word "iw" is frequently used...ex. "iw r< m pt" (The sun is in the sky)... When the subject is a noun, the word "iw" occurs only in independent statements or assertions made with a certain detachment, and in these the the presence of "iw" is much more common than its absence. Thus the difference between "iw r< m pt" and "r< m pt" is that, whereas the former gives considerable prominence and importance to the affirmation which is contains, the latter is the form of words chosen for simple unobtrusive description, particularly when there has to be expressed the equivalent of an English "adverb clause", i.e. clause of time, circumstance, condition, etc. When the subject is a pronoun the sentence with "iw" has a wider use (see sections 37.117) I typed this all out because it is difficult to explain, much less understand, but to bring the point home, I'll jump ahead and use Gardiner's example of his last statement about the subject being a pronoun: iw-n m pr-f We are in his house So, the answer to your question is--yes, it is possible to write "iw gr sS m hrw m grH" for "The scribe is silent by day and by night" but I didn't use it because I don't feel it's necessary. Another way I can put it is that, in Egyptian, there really is no "is" in this phrase. It is like like the German" Der Sanger schweigt"(the singer is silent). In other words, in Egyptian, this statement is no different from "wbn r< m pt". Somebody else may disagree with me. But, when I wrote "iw s im pr" (a man is there in the house) I did so because here is a certain circumstance that requires such an emphasis. Is there anybody out there that perhaps has a better explanation of this? Andre Renouf ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:49:59 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner Exercise On 14 Mar 98 at 10:13, Andren4585 wrote: > Another way I can put it is that, in Egyptian, there really > is no "is" in this phrase. It is like like the German" Der Sanger > schweigt"(the singer is silent). In other words, in Egyptian, this statement > is no different from "wbn r< m pt". Basically, my understanding is that the particle iw is used in such sentences to introduce a main clause. This is the circumstantial form of the verb and indicates that the speaker is making a statement of fact (even if what is being said isn't actually factual!). I think section 9 of Hoch makes this point a little more clearly than Gardiner does. The example that Hoch gives is iw Dd s m pr (the man speaks in the house). Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:59:26 -0800 From: Kasia & Malcolm Jarrett To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Comparative Reconstruction Hi! You might want to start with: Loprieno, Antonio. Ancient Egyptian: A linguistic introduction. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995. very inexpensive (less than $20), scholarly, extensive bibliography. -Kasia Szpakowska Westland@netcomuk.co.uk wrote: > [snip] > > > > Now this interests me immensely, could you possibly give my more > information on this and maybe point me in the direction of websites etc > or books that deal with this, especially in relation to AE. > I've often wondered in Hebrew could offer us any clues, does this strike > a chord with anyone????? I'd be grateful for any feedback onthis at all... > thankyou Julie. ============================================================================== From: "Troy Sagrillo" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Comparative Reconstruction Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:28:13 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Westland@netcomuk.co.uk To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: zaterdag 14 maart 1998 16:12 Subject: Re: AEL Comparative Reconstruction >Oscar H. Blayton wrote: >> Cheikh Anta Diop, the late Senegalese linguist did quite a bit of work >> with Compative Reconstruction of AEL using Coptic and Walaf [a type of >> West African "lingua franca"] and it seems that this type of approach >> will eventually lead to a better understanding of the pronunciation of >> AEL, and of the language itself. Julie wrote: >Now this interests me immensely, could you possibly give my more >information on this and maybe point me in the direction of websites etc >or books that deal with this, especially in relation to AE. >I've often wondered in Hebrew could offer us any clues, does this strike >a chord with anyone????? I'd be grateful for any feedback onthis at all... >thankyou Julie. Hello all, I would just like to mention that Copto-Egyptian (i.e., the Egyptian language in all of it's phases, from Old Egyptian through mediaeval Coptic) is an Afro-Asiatic language. That is, it is a branch of the Afro-Asiatic language "super-family", along with the Semitic branch (incl. Akkadian, Arabic, Phoenician, Hebrew, the Ethiopian languages, Ugaritic, Aramaic, etc.), the Libyco-Berber branch, the Chadic branch, the Cushitic branch (includes Somali), and the Omotic branch. You may see a list of the A-A languages at the Summer Institute of Lingusitic's Ethnologue (a catalogue of most of the world's languages): http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/families/Afro-Asiatic.html Julie and others will note that Hebrew (as a Semitic language) is also an A-A language, and therefore related to Copto-Egyptian. The A-A languages likely had their original "homeland" in the area of southern Egypt-Sudan-Somalia before spreading to Asia (in the form of Semitic) and west in the form of Libyco-Berber and Chadic. (If anyone is interested in this, see: Blench, Robert. 1993. Recent Developments in African Language Classification and Their Implications for Prehistory. The Archaeology of Africa: Foods, Metals, Towns. Shaw, Thurston, et al., eds. One World Archaeology 20. Routledge: London and New York, p. 126138.) However, Wolof is not an A-A: it is a member of the Niger-Congo super-family (sometimes called the Niger-Kordofan family). The SIL list of N-C is at: http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/families/Niger-Congo.html Wolof is therefore unrelated to Copto-Egyptian (ancient Egyptian and Coptic are of course different historical phases of the same language), despite Diop's extremely far-fetched claims. (BTW, Diop was not a linguist.) Saying that Wolof and ancient Egyptian are related is the equivilant to saying English (or any other Indo-European language) and ancient Egyptian are related. That there may be words of Egyptian origin in N-C languages is entirely possible given the geography and time depth, just as there are a few words of known Copto-Egyptian origin in Indo-European languages such as Greek, Latin, and even English. But the list is small and entirely due to later borrowings, not a common origin. In terms of reconstructing the original phonology of ancient Egyptian, there are a number of sources. The best of course is seeing how the ancient words were pronounced in the various dialects of the latest phase of the language, i.e., Coptic. Also important are ancient Egyptian words (typically personal names and toponyms) recorded in other languages such as Greek, Latin, Akkadian, Canaanite, and a few others. Thirdly are records in *Egyptian* texts of foreign words and names, especially those whose phonology is better known (typically Semitic languages); this allows us to see what sounds the Egyptians gave to their writing system. And lastly, there is comparison of cognate words with other A-A languages. However, the last is the most speculative of all of these methods. A good place to start reading if interested in these subjects is the intro to: Loprieno, Antonio. 1995. Ancient Egyptian: A Linguistic Introduction. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. [Loprieno also gives a reconstruction of both Older Egyptian (Old and Middle Egyptian) and Later Egyptian (Late Egyptian, Demotic, and Coptic). Also look at: Vycichl, Werner. 1990. La vocalisation de la langue egyptienne. Volume 1: La phonetique. Bibliotheque dEtude 16. Cairo: Imprimerie de lInstitut francais darcheologie orientale. And for the really serious, there are: Ehret, Christopher. 1995. Reconstructing Proto-Afroasiatic (Proto-Afrasian): Vowels, Tones, Consonants, and Vocabulary. University of California Publications in Linguistics 126. Berkeley & London: University of California Press. Hodge, Carleton Taylor, Ed. 1971. Afroasiatic: A Survey. Jana Linguarum (Series Practica) 163. The Hague and Paris: Mouton & Co. N. V. [dated, but still a good introduction] Best regards, Troy Sagrillo ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 18:56:59 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner Exercise In a message dated 98-03-14 12:02:29 EST, you write: << Basically, my understanding is that the particle iw is used in such sentences to introduce a main clause. This is the circumstantial form of the verb and indicates that the speaker is making a statement of fact (even if what is being said isn't actually factual!). I think section 9 of Hoch makes this point a little more clearly than Gardiner does. The example that Hoch gives is iw Dd s m pr (the man speaks in the house). >> Mark, I wouldn't argue with Hoch, but plenty of main clauses are going to be introduced in Egyptian texts and statements of fact made without "iw". That is why I would say to beginners who are by now frightened and discouraged from this --don't worry about it. Leave it to the ancient Egyptians to worry about "iw" and where to put it. Just recognize that, when you see it, that it is an auxilliary verb and that its presence neither makes nor breaks the phrase. That is to say, the meaning of the phrase must be deduced from other words therein--not "iw". Should you need to write a phrase in Egyptian and you are not sure if "iw" is required, put it in or leave it out. Why should you be wrong when the ancients, themselves, were not consistent in this "iw" business? >From my observation, these are some tips: If you are dealing with the present tense you do not need "iw" so much, perhaps, as when dealing with the past and future tenses. It seems to figure more in these contexts. Also, if a phrase has two separate clauses, the second clause will be the one more like to contain the "iw". Example: xd nDs pn r niwt, iw pr m rSwt "(When) this poor man fares downstream to the city, the house is in joy" Andre Renouf ============================================================================== From: "Ivo Marinov" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner Exercise Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 23:17:55 +0200 Hello Andre, I think it will be useful to us, the beginners, to go trough Gardiner exercises. If anyone does not know, a key to first eight of them is located at http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/gri/8.html Here is my attempt on exercise II: a) 1. The sun shines on the horizon. iw wbn ra m p.t 2. When a man speaks, a woman is silent. iw mdw s gr s.t 3. The scribe travels downstream in a boat to this city. iw xd sS m dp.t r niw.t tn 4. This scribe listens to Ptah. iw sDm sS pn n ptH 5. The sun is in the sky together with the moon. iw ra m p.t Hna iaH 6. The scribe does not know another plan. iw sS n rx k.y sxr 7. When this boat goes down to the lake, the city is in joy. iw hAi dp.t tn r S niw.t m rSw.t 8. This poor man hears the name. iw sDm nDs pn n rn 9. Another man is in this house. iw k.y s m pr pn b) 1. hAi sS r k.y.t dp.t The scribe goes down to another boat. 2. rx ptH sxr pn Ptah knows about this plan. 3. xd nDs pn r niw.t iw pr m rSw.t When this commoner travels downstream to the city, (his) house is in joy. 4. wbn iaH m p.t The moon shines in the sky. 5. gr sS m hrw m grH The scribe is silent by day and by night. 6. iw tA pn m rSw.t hAi r wiA This land is in joy, when Ra goes down to the bark. 7. iw S m niw.t tn The lake is in this city. 8. sDm s.t tn n sS This woman obeys the scribe. 9. iw s im m pr The man is there, in the house. Best wishes, Ivo Marinov. ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:06:33 -0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Francesca Subject: AEL Djoser / Nefertari I am looking for the name of Djoser's spouse. Is there any document about her at all ? By the way, was Nefertari also a wife of Tutankhamen ? I know only of Ramses II's Nefertari. How would the name be spelled in AE ? nfrt-ari ? Thank you Francesca ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 08:59:12 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Re: AEL Djoser / Nefertari At 01:06 PM 3/15/98 -0100, Francesca wrote: >I am looking for the name of Djoser's spouse. >Is there any document about her at all ? In looking through Budge's _The Book of the Kings of Egypt_ (1976, rept of 1908 edition, AMS Publishing), I do not see any reference to the name of Djoser's wife, and this volume is one of the more meticulous of works of Budge, and is still used in scholarly work for its hieroglyphic representations. >By the way, was Nefertari also a wife of Tutankhamen ? Most hieroglyphic references only point to Ankhsenamen as Tutankhamen's chief royal wife, although lesser wives were possible, especially foreign ones. However there is a time differential that would preclude Nefertari from being one of them, I think, with some 30 years' span from the death of Tutankhamen (say, ca. 1327 BCE), and the ascension to the throne of Seti I (Ramses II's father) in 1294 BCE (using Nicolas Grimal's chronology here). Were she the wife of Tutankhamen, she would have been an "older woman", by ancient (and even modern) Egyptian standards, by the time she married Ramses II and made Chief Wife at his ascension to the throne in 1279 BCE, almost _50 years_ after the death of Tutankhamen. Knowing that Ramses II and Nefertari had children together (attested to on monuments), I can't see this as being very likely. Further, IF Nefertari were of the "blood royale" (which seems to have been assumed by the Rammessid kings (she first being a consort of Seti I, I believe)), then it sort of begs the question of why Ay felt it necessary to marry Ankhsenamen (Tutankhamen's Chief Wife), and Horemheb to marry Mutnomdjet (Nefertiti's half-sister, and by the date of marriage and subsequent death, in her mid to late forties, from her remains), if Nefertari was available. (See Geoffrey Martin's _Hidden Tombs of Memphis_ , as to the analysis of the Mutnomdjet remains found there). Of course, this also ignores the entire history of Ramses I as well, with his own wife, known only as Sat-Ra. I know only of >Ramses II's Nefertari. How would the name be spelled in AE ? nfrt-ari ? There are several versions of Nefertari's name, as Budge's _Book of Kings_ indicates. Her standard name (Nefertiri Mer(en) Mut, "Nefertiri, much loved [beloved] by Mut") seems to have been rendered (with goddess reference (Mut) first): Mwt mr n nfr .t iry Of course, _nfr.t iry_ means "the good/beautiful (fem) companion". See Gardiner's, p. 537 for the use of /y/ for the "\\" sign (Z4) which comprises the last glyph in her name. /i/ is also used in an optional spelling as in 'nfr.t iri' that I have seen elsewhere, but Gardiner disagrees. HTH. Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg Member, American Research Center in Egypt International Association of Egyptologists University of Alabama at Birmingham Special Studies http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/1692/index.html ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:38:53 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Djoser / Nefertari In a message dated 98-03-15 10:19:17 EST, you write: << Further, IF Nefertari were of the "blood royale" (which seems to have been assumed by the Rammessid kings (she first being a consort of Seti I, I believe)), >> This is interesting. I must admit I have never heard of this connection between Seti I and Nefertari. What makes you reach this conclusion? Andre Renouf ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: Re: AEL Datation Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:10:25 +0100 the following informations on the Egyptian names of months can be found in "Lexikon der Aegyptologie", Vol. III, column 299, entry "Kalender" (calendar): For religious purposes the original lunar calendar remained in use until the late period. Its months had popular names after the festivals which were celebrated in them. Since the 19th dynasty they were also used in the civil calendar, but, however, written very seldom. Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl Appendix: The names of the months as cited above are: Axt I DHwti (old: txi) Axt II pA-n-IpAt (old: mnxt) Axt III Hwt-Hr Axt IV kA-Hr-kA (old: NHb-kAw?) prt I tA-aAbt (old: Sf-bdt) prt II (pA-n-)mxr (old: rkH wr) prt III pA-n-Imn Htpw (old: rkH nDs) prt IV (pA-n)Rnnwtt Smw I (pA-n-)xnsw Smw II pA-n-Int (old: xnt-Xtj) Smw III Ipip (old: Ipt Hmt) Smw IV mswt-Ra (old: wpt-rnpt) Vocabulary (according to Hannig, Rainer, Grosses Handwoerterbuch Aegyptisch-Deutsch (2800 - 950 v. Chr.), Verlag Philipp von Zabern, Mainz, 1995) hieroglyphic writing - transliteration - translation i-p:t-F27-B1 - ipt - (1) Ipet (a goddess); (2) Ipet (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 third month of the Smw-season and called Ipip); (2) Ipet (a feast/festival in this month) i-p:t-Hm-t-B1-s - ipt-Hmt=s - festival of goddess Ipet wp:p-t-rnp-t:Z1 or F14-W3 - wpt-rnpt - (1) New Year's Day; (2) festival on New Year's Day; (3) Wepet-renpet (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 fourth month of the Smw-season and called mswt-Ra); pA-A-n-i-p:t-O45 - pA-n-IpAt - Paophi (second month of Axt-season) [no hieroglyphs given] - pA-n-Imn-Htp - Paremhatep (a month) [pA-A-n] i-in:n-t:N25 - pA-n-int - a feast/festival m:n-x:t-Y1:Z2 - mnxt - (1) Menkhet (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 second month of the Axt-season and called pA-n-IpAt); (2) Menkhet (a feast/festival) m:a-x:r-W3:N5-Z3 - mxr - a festival pn-pA-mxr Mshir (second month of of the prt-season) G21-H-b-D30-kA-kA-kA-..:W3 - nHb-kAw - the Neheb-Kau-festival (first day of first month of the prt-season) r:n-w-t:t or r-nn-w-t:t - rnnwtt - (1) Renenutet, Thermutis (goddess of harvest); (2) Renenutet (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 fourth month of the prt-season); (2) a feast/festival of harvest r:k-H-Q7-..:X4 wr:r - rkH wr - (1) "Great Burning" (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 second month of the prt-season and called pA-n-mxr); (2) a feast/festival r:k-H-Q7-..:X4 n:D-s-G37 - rkH nDs - (1) "Small Burning" (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 third month of the prt-season and called pA-n-Imn-Htp); (2) a feast/festival O10 or O6-Hr:r-..:Z5-I12 - Hwt-Hr - (1) goddess Hathor; (2) Hathor (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 third month of the Axt-season); (3) Hathor (a feast/festival in this month) x:n-sw-w - xnsw - (1) Khons (a god); (2) ... [medical term]; (3) Khons (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 first month of the Smw-season, sometimes also called pA-n-xnsw); (2) Khons (a feast/festival in this month) W17-F32-ti-M17A - xnti-Xti - (1) Khenticheti (a god); (2) Khenticheti (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 second month of the Smw-season and called pA-n-int); (2) Khenticheti (a feast/festival in this month) S:f-M34-t:Z1 - Sf-bdt - (1) Shef-bedet (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 first month of the prt-season and called tA-aAbt); (2) Shef-bedet (a feast/festival) kA-Hr:Z1-kA-W3:N5 or kA*kA:Z2-W3:N5 - kA-Hr-kA - (1) Koiak (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 fourth month of the Axt-season); (2) Koiak (a feast/festival in this month) t:A-a-b-t:Z5-W3:N5-Z - tA-abt or tA-aAbt - (1) offering festival; (2) Tobe (first month of the prt-season) t:x-y:W3 - txi (1) Tekhi (until Dyn. 18 a lunar month; since Dyn. 19 first month of the Axt-season and called DHwti); (2) a feast/festival (in this month) G26B-W3:N5 or W3:N5-G26B-G7 - DHwti - (1) Thot (a feast/festival); (2) Thot (first month of the Axt-season) ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 18:09:58 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner Exercise Mark Wilson 'ecrit : > Dear Andre, > > Thank you for your kind help with this lesson. I have a question > about the use of the particle iw. I can see that you use it when it > is a non-verbal sentence, but when you do have a verb, iw can still > be used depending on the verb form. iw before a sDm=f form "iw=f sDm=f" or "iw sDm=f" normaly is used to denote an habit, a repeated action : *iw ra wbn=f m pt ra nb Ra rises in the sky every day The problem with "iw" and Gardiner is that large parts of Gardiner's theories about sDm=f are obsolete, and must be taken with a grain of salt. > > > > > 5. gr sS m hrw m grH > > > > "The scribe is silent by day and by night" > > Isn't it the case that when you start a claus with a verb, it means > "May the scribe be silent by day and by night" ? Maybe I am jumping > too far ahead at this stage, but I remember when I did these > exercises the first time, I was a little confused about Gardiner's > the use of iw. > > Would it be possible to write "iw gr sS m hrw m grH" for "The scribe > is silent by day and by night"? You are right ; you could find also : iw sS gr=f m hrw m grH because when you have a nominal subject, the iw=f sDm=f tend to be more "iw Subject sDm=f" than "iw sDm Subject" regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:36:26 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Re: AEL Djoser / Nefertari At 11:38 AM 3/15/98 EST, Andre Renouf , Andren4585 wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-15 10:19:17 EST, you write: > ><< Further, IF Nefertari were of the "blood royale" (which seems to have been > assumed by the Rammessid kings (she first being a consort of Seti I, I > believe)), >> > >This is interesting. I must admit I have never heard of this >connection between Seti I and Nefertari. What makes >you reach this conclusion? Perhaps the word "possible consort" would have been a better choice of words; mea culpa. Comes from reading so many books over various phases of Egyptian history research. ;)) Maspero (in his _Struggle of Nations_ (1925)) indicated that Nefertari was the 'heiress daughter' (usually first daughter) of his wife Tuaa, and as such, may have been associated with her in a "royal marriage" of sorts, since she held a better claim to the throne than did Seti I himself. It is merely a theory, although the Dedicatory Stela of Abydos, in which Seti names Ramses II as his heir, seems to state that she (and her sisters) were a key reason for Ramses II to be the heir, as they were given in marriage to him and solidified his claim to the throne (so ran Maspero's reasoning, anyway). Since then, there has been some retrenchment on the idea of Nefertari as being the "wife/consort" of Seti I, it seems, and even that Nefertari was even related to Ramses II, although the lingering idea of she being his sister/half-sister still remains in some works. Hope this clarifies the situation. Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg Member, American Research Center in Egypt International Association of Egyptologists University of Alabama at Birmingham Special Studies http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/1692/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 19:43:28 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner Exercise Andren4585 'ecrit : > In a message dated 98-03-14 08:56:53 EST, you write: ... A notice for those working from Gardiner : Gardiner grammar is a monument, still an important reference today. The first chapters are IMHO a pleasure to learn from. Yet, on the specific subject of sDm=f and (to a lesser extend) sDm.n=f forms, his theories are superseded by those of Polotsky (who, in turn ... :-) ). There have been a number of mails on the list about that, have a look at the archive. > am, as well. I can only tell you all what Gardiner says about it on page 36. > Let us use his example "wbn r< m pt" or "the sun rises in the sky". > Gardiner says: "In their particular contexts any of the following renderings > may be legitimate:" > > wbn r< m pt > The sun rises in the sky this one is very unlikely. It could mean : " It is in the sky that the sun rises ", but "the sun rises in the sky" would be rendered by "iw ra wbn=f m pt" or perhaps "ra wbn=f m pt", a kind of sentence which occurs. > The sun rose in the sky same as above, in a way. The Egyptian tenses are relative, not absolute. That is, "wbn" occurs in the same timeframe as the rest of the text. if the text refers to the past, wbn is past. > The sun will rise in the sky This tense is called now "prospective sDm=f". If I'm not mistaken, it was discovered by Gunn, Gardiner's assistant. It can be a future, or express a wish, or a promise. > When the sun rises in the sky > When the sun rose in the sky > If the sun rose in the sky These values still holds today. They are "circumstantial sDm=f", usually in the second part of a sentence (if the sun... could be, depending on the rest of the sentence, a nominal sDm=f, the one that appears in > Let the sun rise in the sky > That the sun may (might) rise in the These two are both prospective sDm=f, like the one above. > sky > > Now for just "r< m pt" The sun is in the sky > The sun was in the sky > Let the sun be in the sky > When the sun is (was, will be) in > the sky > The sun being in the > sky(circumstantial), etc. "ra m pt" could be either : * an independant clause. In this case, the absence of 'iw' presents the sentence as being linked with the opinion, wishes, etc. of the speaker. It could mean, for example : the sun is in the sky ! * linked to another sentence, and mean, in this case : (and) the sun is in the sky or when the sun is in the sky > So, the answer to your question is--yes, it is possible > to write "iw gr sS m hrw m grH" for "The scribe is silent by > day and by night" but I didn't use it because I don't feel > it's necessary. Another way I can put it is that, in Egyptian, there really > is no "is" in this phrase. It is like like the German" Der Sanger > schweigt"(the singer is silent). In other words, in Egyptian, this statement > is no different from "wbn r< m pt". Somebody else may disagree with me. > But, when I wrote "iw s im pr" (a man is there in the house) > I did so because here is a certain circumstance that > requires such an emphasis. Is there anybody out there > that perhaps has a better explanation of this? The "normal" sentence is the one with "iw", not the reverse. If a one says : iw s m at tn It's a plain constatation : there is a man in this room. mk s m at tn It's something you can see : lo, there's a man in this room. But, on its own : s m at tn means Gosh ! there's a man in this room ! To sum up : in themes, put 'iw' in front of independant sentences, when possible. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL WG: AEL Djoser / Nefertari Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 19:41:11 +0100 Dear Francesca, (1) Djoser's wife the "Lexikon der Aegyptologie", Vol. I, column 1112, states [1975] that three "daughters of the king" were mentioned in the time of Djoser, one of them may have been his wife: (a) Int-kAw-s, (b) Htp-Hr-Nbti, (c) = name is destroyed. Thomas Schneider, Lexikon der Pharaonen, Zuerich, 1994, pp. 115-117, entry "Djoser", writes that Htp-Hr-Nbti was Djoser's wife (according to the egyptologist W. Helck). Then Djoser would have been son-in-law of Khasekhemui. But it seems that the discussion about the Djoser's family is far from over. (2) Tutankhamun's wife Tutankhamun's wife is Anx-s-n-pA-Itn (later: Anx-s-n-Imn). It is for example documented on the golden throne of Tutankhamun [object 91 in Tutankhamun's tomb] (may be you have a photograph of it in a book or catalog), where there is an inscription Hmt nswt wrt mrt-f "the beloved great wife of the king". - I don't believe that there is any evidence that Nefertari had been ever Tut's wife. (3) Nefertari Nofetere was Ramses's II. main wife. Her tomb (No. 66 in the Valley of the Queens) is one of the most beautiful ones and a lot of photographs can be found in many books on Ancient Egypt. I have a cartouche giving her name as Nfrt-iri mrit n Mwt "Nefertari, loved by Mut". By the way, it seems that there is no common transliteration of her name. Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Francesca [SMTP:sole@lunet.it] > Gesendet am: Sonntag, 15. M=E4rz 1998 14:07 > An: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk > Betreff: AEL Djoser / Nefertari >=20 > I am looking for the name of Djoser's spouse. > Is there any document about her at all ? >=20 > By the way, was Nefertari also a wife of Tutankhamen ? I know only of > Ramses II's Nefertari. How would the name be spelled in AE ? nfrt-ari > ? >=20 > Thank you > Francesca >=20 ============================================================================== From: DPeregrine Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:55:00 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Comparative Reconstruction Troy, A quick question if I may- does Guanche, the now unhappily extinct tongue of the Canary Islands, classify as an Afro-Asiatic language? I know this is not strictly on-topic so you can reply on or off list to: Diane Peregrine DPeregrine@aol.com ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL AW: AEL Comparative Reconstruction Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 19:45:55 +-100 > Cheikh Anta Diop, the late Senegalese linguist did quite a bit of work > with Compative Reconstruction of AEL using Coptic and Walaf [a type of > West African "lingua franca"] and it seems that this type of approach > will eventually lead to a better understanding of the pronunciation of > AEL, and of the language itself. ***Some MAJOR reserve and skepsis are in order here: 1) Wolof was Diop's native language, and it is a well-known principle that historical linguists tend to project their own mother tongue onto the proto-language of the family. (Such biases even more rule amateur linguists, as we can daily see on the Net) 2) Diop is a principle Afrocentrist, with all the hidden programs and questionable historics attached. He f.e. proposes a pan-african language family, in which no scholar follows him. And only on that premiss he sees links between Wolof and Ancient Egyptian. The plain facts are that AE is a member of the Afro-Asiatic language family, and Wolof is an (archaic) member of the Niger-Congo language family, and the two families are not in ANY scholary classification related. The ONLY way in which AE and Wolof could share similarities, is that they in prehistoric times lived side by side somewhere in the Saharan region, with AE borrowing *some* traits from a Wolof ancestor. Not impossible, but that at best would be minimal borrowing done several millenia before Dyn.1, it would not spell a genetic relation between the two individual languages. Trying to reconstruct how AE sounded on the basis of how Wolof sounds, would be comparable to trying to determine how Latin sounded on the basis of how modern Finnish sounds. For completeness sake though, this is the relevant work, Julie: C.A. Diop - Parente genetique de l'egyptien pharaonique et des langues negro-africaines; IFAN-NEA, 1977 kind regards, Aayko Eyma PS: With 'New Age-ism' I meant simply what it suggests: a 'hinein-interpretation', projecting modern (in this case: spiritual/occult) views into ancient believes. Cf. point (1) above, cf. modern-ism, cf. german-ism, etc. So it did NOT imply 'wacky', Ramona. And the fact remains that AE 'west' and 'hidden' can NOT be read interchangably unlike you claim - different words etymologically, and differently written as well. Be my guest to see a mystical wordplay there, but unless you show me an AE text making that 'sacred pun' (and they had heaps of those!), than it simply remains YOUR wordplay, not an Ancient Egyptian one. Well to be seperated. ============================================================================== From: DPeregrine Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 14:49:15 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Djoser / Nefertari Re: Wives of Djoser I always hate myself later when I don't cite sources in notes I make to myself! However, I find that I scribbled in the margin of my Clayton "Chronicle of the Pharaohs" that among Djoser's wives were a Satet, and also a Heterphenebty who I further note was his sister. Comments anyone? Would anyone be kind enough to remind me where the dickens I got this? Diane Peregrine DPeregrine@aol.com ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:51:37 -0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Francesca Subject: Re: AEL WG: AEL Djoser / Nefertari At 07:41 PM 3/15/98 +0100, you wrote: >the "Lexikon der Aegyptologie", Vol. I, column 1112, states [1975] that >three "daughters of the king" were mentioned in the time of Djoser, one >of them may have been his wife: (a) Int-kAw-s, (b) Htp-Hr-Nbti, (c) = >name >is destroyed. Thanks for this info. I did not even know he had had daughters! >(2) Tutankhamun's wife >I don't believe that there is any evidence >that Nefertari had been ever Tut's wife. As I said in a previous thank you message to Katherine G-G, I was just double-checking as I had just read this on a website. It seemed awkward. >(3) Nefertari I have a cartouche giving >her name as Nfrt-iri mrit n Mwt "Nefertari, loved by Mut". By the way, >it seems that there is no common transliteration of her name. Thanks for all your help. Francesca ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:46:01 -0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Francesca Subject: Re: AEL Djoser / Nefertari At 08:59 AM 3/15/98 -0600, Katherine wrote: >In looking through Budge's _The Book of the Kings of Egypt_ (1976, rept of >1908 edition, AMS Publishing), I do not see any reference to the name of >Djoser's wife, and this volume is one of the more meticulous of works of >Budge, and is still used in scholarly work for its hieroglyphic >representations. Thanks. I had looked in my sources and nowhere have I found anything. I just wondered if MAYBE ... somewhere that info. could be read. >Most hieroglyphic references only point to Ankhsenamen as Tutankhamen's >chief royal wife, although lesser wives were possible, especially foreign >ones. Just asking because I saw Nefertari mentioned as Tut's wife on a website Thanks for the transliteration of her name. >Knowing that Ramses II >and Nefertari had children together (attested to on monuments), I can't see >this as being very likely. I didn't either. Thank you again, Francesca ==============================================================================