Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 17:46:19 +1100 From: "Saint Simian" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Weird possessive tw=f Hi-ho, peoples. I'm new to the list, but I've been doing Egyptology on-and-off for a few years. Just this year I've been reading some texts on my own, but I've hit a grammar snag I hoped someone could help me with. It concerns a weird possessive construction I've encountered in the Dream Book (P. Chester Beatty III). It looks like an ordinary noun followed by tw=f. By the context it obviously means "his", and the Gardiner translation (1935) translates it as "his". But I haven't been able to find any explanation of this construction, and I wondered if anyone here might be familiar with it. How does it work exactly? And is there a reference in Gardiner's Grammar for it? Here are some examples from the Dream Book: 1,21 (i)x.t tw=f his possessions 2,2 niw.tyw tw=f his townsfolk 2,12 Dr.t tw=f his hand Any thoughts? I'll bet this works for other pronouns too, but this is the only time I've ever seen it. Thanks in advance, Saint Simian, Patron Saint of Evolution ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:05:25 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weird possessive tw=f Saint Simian a écrit : > > Hi-ho, peoples. > > I'm new to the list, but I've been doing Egyptology on-and-off for a > few years. Just this year I've been reading some texts on my own, but > I've hit a grammar snag I hoped someone could help me with. > > It concerns a weird possessive construction I've encountered in the > Dream Book (P. Chester Beatty III). It looks like an ordinary noun > followed by tw=f. By the context it obviously means "his", and the > Gardiner translation (1935) translates it as "his". But I haven't > been able to find any explanation of this construction, and I wondered > if anyone here might be familiar with it. How does it work exactly? > And is there a reference in Gardiner's Grammar for it? > > Here are some examples from the Dream Book: > 1,21 (i)x.t tw=f his possessions > 2,2 niw.tyw tw=f his townsfolk > 2,12 Dr.t tw=f his hand > > Any thoughts? I'll bet this works for other pronouns too, but this is > the only time I've ever seen it. > > Thanks in advance, > Saint Simian, Patron Saint of Evolution > The text is ramesside, and the orthography of the time is somehow disturbing when you are used to Middle Egyptian. The idea is that the final "t" in words wasn't heard anymore (it started already in the Middle Kingdom). So, to indicate the actual presence of a "t" which was pronounced, the scribe wrote ".tw". Conversely, plain final "t" meant little, and you even find feminine words without a "t" and masculine words with "t". So, it's simply x.t=f and Dr.t=f. For the niw.tyw, it's a bit more unusual. See http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/Qenherkhepeshef/intro2.html To deal with those texts, I would suggest getting a Late Egyptian grammar :-), Neveu's "Langue des Ramsès", or Junge's Late Egyptian Grammar. Best regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "A.P.de Visser" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Weird possessive tw=f Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:19:03 +0100 Hi I think the -form is a combination of the old female demonstrative and the possessive , or simply.You can find something in the beginning of Lesson IX in Gardiner. I hope Iam right. Regards Bram de Visser ,Holland ============================================================================== From: "Paul" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:33:24 -0500 Subject: AEL Re: Study Guide for Sinuhe I should have proof-read it more carefully :) A few of the hieroglyphic images were missing from the version of Sinuhe I announced a few days ago. I have fixed the file-naming problems that caused that I regenerated the PDF file. It is available at http://www.twonotes.us/hg/Sinuhe.pdf -Paul Dickson > To help me in my own studies I prepared a different arrangement of Jon J > Hirst's translation of Sinuhe (that is the version you see at Jenny > Carrington's web site) that puts the hieroglyphics, transliteration, and > translations side by side on each page. This makes jumping back and > forth much easier. You can cover part of the page with another piece of > paper and then see how well you are doing. > > With the kind permissions of Jenny Carrington and Jon Hirst I can make > this available to everyone interested. You can get the 56 page PDF file > here: > http://www.twonotes.us/hg/Sinuhe.pdf > It is about 1.5 MB in size. > > -Paul Dickdon > ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 07:33:39 +1100 From: "Saint Simian" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Weird possessive tw=f On 05/12/2007, Serge Rosmorduc wrote: > The text is ramesside, and the orthography of the time is somehow > disturbing when you are used to Middle Egyptian. > > The idea is that the final "t" in words wasn't heard anymore (it started > already in the Middle Kingdom). So, to indicate the actual presence of a > "t" which was pronounced, the scribe wrote ".tw". Conversely, plain > final "t" meant little, and you even find feminine words without a "t" > and masculine words with "t". > > So, it's simply x.t=f and Dr.t=f. > > For the niw.tyw, it's a bit more unusual. > > See http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/Qenherkhepeshef/intro2.html > > To deal with those texts, I would suggest getting a Late Egyptian > grammar :-), Neveu's "Langue des Ramsès", or Junge's Late Egyptian Grammar. > > > Best regards, > > S. Rosmorduc SENSATIONAL! You're a saviour, Monsieur Rosmorduc! Your explanation fits perfectly. You're right, I know Middle Egyptian but wasn't expecting these LE forms. Your explanation of the dropped ".t" in feminine words replaced by ".tw" fits perfectly. I had wondered why they used ".tw=f" for some words and simply "=f" for others (like nTr=f)! You've also explained why they drop so many of the ".t" infinitives. Almost every line starts with the "Hr + infinitive" construction, but *very* few tertiae infirmae verbs show the infinitive ".t". I think your website may also have answered the question of why some infinitives appear to have full plural markings. It was driving me nuts, and forcing me to doubt the scribe's (and soon my own) sanity. I don't like to doubt the scribe (who, after all, knew Egyptian a lot better than I do), but when you're face-to-face with "Hr + verb", there's not that much it could be! So thank you for your enlightened help. It's probably about time I dipped my toe in the pool of Late Egyptian. Saint Simian, Patron Saint of Evolution ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:09:54 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Chassinat's Edfou Hi; Would anyone happen to be familiar enough with editions, revisions, and the volumes of _Edfou_ to know if the inscriptions from the perfume lab (in the Great Hall area) are to be found with any facility? I was looking for the kApt recipe (there are two in the temple, somewhere), so I could compare it with Plutarch's account, make an interlinear PDF, etc. [There is an overwhelming amount of information at the Edfu Projekt, but I am on an older Mac at the moment, and cannot make use of the advanced applications. And the e-mail server would not deliver a query to the listed contact address.] Best wishes, Bob ==============================================================================