From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:30:10 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons > > >From time to time I see people post answers to excersises that they've done > but I think it would be great to have a whole list dedicated to that sort of > thing. I'd start one but I would have no idea how to go about doing so. Dear Suzie, Well, it's funny you should mention it, but that is exactly what this list is for! Things have been fairly quite of late, but we do usually work systematically through a text, or go over exercises. I guess people are busy with other commitments at the moment to actively take part. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:17:18 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Cc: nordpete@webtv.net Subject: AEL Exercise #1 from AEL net site Please provide kind assistance to this beginner. This is my first try. In Chattanooga,TN knowledge is gained through net and books ordered that are recommended on net. This means we are attempting self taught with help from lists, net exercises, and book by Budge(this wll change other books on order.) Decided to jump in and give it a try. Exercise 1 has two parts. Part one: 1. jw=j Hr m33=f (I am seeing him, or I see him) 2. jw=T r s-nm=sn (You will be feeding them) 3. mk sw r jTj.t=n ( (Look) he will be tking us) 4. jw=s Hr sDm=s (She is hearing her, or she hears her) 5. mk wj r sDm=f (Look I will be hearing him, or look I will hear him) Apologize for some confusion on some translations perhaps someone will see my confusion and clarify. Part two: 1. mk wj Hr jnj.t=n 2. jw=n Hr s-nm=s 3. jw=sn r jTj.t=s 4. mk sy Hr m33=f 5. mk Tn r mrj.t=j 6. tw Hr jnj.t=sn 7. jw=sn Hr s-nm=n 8. jw=f r m33=f 9. mk n Hr sDm=T 10. mk st Hr mrj.t=k Barbara Petersen nordpete@webtv.net ============================================================================== From: "Tibs" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:23:28 -0500 Ok, so we have decided to start a thread on intro to hireoglyphics. I guess we now have to decide where to start and which book/texts to use. The only book I go by is my Gardiner bible (Egyptian Grammar) and I am quite familiar with it, up to chaper 27 or so. I can try to answer any questions people have up to that point. Is that a good start for everybody? -------- -Suzie- Kungfu@netcom.ca Pyramids: Tombs built for Egyptian Kings, or a clever attraction built by Disney? ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:03:30 -0600 From: badger@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Jonathan Badger) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Questions about Hoch's chapter 3 exercises Folks - Well, I've been working my way through Hoch's "Middle Egyptian Grammar" and have some questions about the translation excercises at the end of chapter three (p. 55). Here is my transliteration of 3.4 iw hAb it sA=f r ky bw mAA=f s pn bin r r n pr=f And my translation: The father sends his son to another place when he sees that this man is bad concerning the statement of his house. And 3.6 iw TAty rSwt mAA=f Hr nfr n mwt=f The vizer is in a state of joy upon seeing his mother's happiness So, are these correct? I'm not quite confident in them. It would have been nice if the answers to all the excercises had been in the back of the book, but I suppose as the book is used in courses, the excercises might be assigned as homework. Jonathan Badger (badger@aquarius.scs.uiuc.edu) ============================================================================== From: "Simone De Lorenzis" To: "aegyptian-l" Subject: AEL search of an old page of the "Prosopographia Aegypti" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:48:57 +0100 I am a in search of an old page of the "Prosopographia Aegypti" at the CCER site. As those pages have been totally renewed since when I visited them, not allowing an off-line reading as a little dictionary of middle egiptian, i would be grateful to anybody that could send me via e-mail the letter "i" page in zipped format (it should be only 10Kbytes), because when i downloaded the entire site i wansn't able to download this page for a very slow remote connection. Thank you all, Simone De Lorenzis Universit=E0 di Bologna ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:51:24 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons Dear Mark, I would be happy to post some very simple phrases each day and discuss them with those people who are just beginning to study the Egyptian language. Sincerely, Andre Renouf ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:52:01 +0000 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Tony Gist Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons I have received a number of personal emails expressing the same sentiments as myself for trying to get some form of beginners lessons started. Is this possible to achieve some way or another? A common theme in the emails I have received is that it is *very* hard to learn Ancient Egyptian on your own. The beauty of this list is the pool of knowledge that we can all dip into - if only we did not feel slightly intimidated by our lack of knowledge and the perceived advanced nature of the discussions taking place (this was another common theme in the emails I received). Is there anyone willing to help us poor souls to get started in an interactive way. The problem is where should we begin - but I suppose it would be sensible to assume that we know absotutely nothing (not far from the truth in my case). -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ Tony Gist Computer Training Centre (TTS Group) Technical Co-ordinator 84a High St, Bideford, EX39 2JX Tel: (01237) 471423 Fax: (01237) 425279 ============================================================================== From: Jcmoinet Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:05:30 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Datation I am in my first year of hieroglyph studies. We are currently studiing the datation. Does any one know if the months had name ? If yes, what were these names ? Thanks a lot JC MOINET Marseille (France) ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:38:32 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons In a message dated 98-03-02 19:36:59 EST, you write: << > I have been lurking around for quite a while now and as a *complete* > novice I must admit to being completely out of my depth. Is there any > kind soul who would consider starting a thread of introductory lessons > where people like myself can learn and contribute? We have actually been attempting something of the sort. Unfortunately, those of us who have been trying to put together some sort of coherent sequence seem to be rather overwhelmed with other things that require our time. Believe me, it certainly it isn't from not attaching very high value to such a project! >> Well, it doesn't need to be such a big project, really. This is what I propose: "Conversational Egyptian 101". I realize that "conversation" is not normally something one attaches to the study of the Egyptian language, yet this is how one learns other languages from books. After all, few persons study Italian, for example, from volumes that resemble Gardiner's "Egyptian Grammar". People on the Internet have busy lives that perhaps do not leave time for memorizing lengthy lists of tenses or conjugations. On the other hand, were they not at least marginally interested in the Egyptian language, they would not be subscribed to this mailing list. Many of you, unless I am mistaken, do not aspire to master Egyptian. Probably, you are merely curious to know what this language is all about, how one says this, how one says that. Even though Egyptian is not an easy language to learn (it will be easier if, at the beginning, we don't have to deal with the hieroglyphs) anybody can learn some words and how to recognize verb endings. I am all for translating texts and would be pleased to participate in some of this myself. But I think we can make an attempt at the "immersion method", as well. I think it would prepare people for tackling the written word. What we must do is use our imaginations. We must purchase a one-way ticket on a time- machine and pretend we have just landed in the Egypt of the Pharaohs. Once the people there realize we are some very strange strangers without Egyptian, they will throw some simple phrases at us and (let us assume we can understand them) we will have to try to make some simple responses because we are stuck in Egypt until we can devise some way to get back home! Believe it or not, this is how foreign languages are most often learned, so why should a dead one be any different? With the permission of the moderator, this is what I would like to try to do. However, I will include brief and simple explanations with the phrases where necessary. The more questions that are asked, the better the understanding of the group will be. For those purists who prefer to start out with the glyphs, we could, at the same time, do Exercise II on page 37 of Gardiner . Anybody who wants to send in their transliterations cum translations, this is the place to get help with them. They are on the Internet (or used to be) but don't go there. Some things are too easy. If you do the work yourself, even with mistakes, you will learn much more. There is no fast or easy way to learn Egyptian. I am new to this list, so perhaps you have already done this exercise here. If so, we can begin with another. Please do not e-mail me privately for we must do this as a class. Comments, please! Andre Renouf ============================================================================== From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:03:33 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk (Ancient Egyptian Language List), Andren4585@aol.com Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons Would love to get on your gooood side and receive the aforementioned thoughts, when can we hope to her more from you? Barbara Petersen nordpete@webtv.net ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:04:55 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Questions about Hoch's chapter 3 exercises Jonathan Badger wrote: > Here is my transliteration of 3.4 > > iw hAb it sA=f r ky bw mAA=f s pn bin r r n pr=f > > And my translation: > > The father sends his son to another place when he sees that this man > is bad concerning the statement of his house. The father sends his son to another place when he sees this bad man at the door of his house. > And 3.6 > > iw TAty rSwt mAA=f Hr nfr n mwt=f iw TAty m rSwt mAA=f Hr nfr n mwt=f > The vizer is in a state of joy upon seeing his mother's happiness or "...when he sees his mother's beautiful face" (literally) > It would have been nice if the answers to all the excercises had been > in the back of the book, but I suppose as the book is used in courses, > the excercises might be assigned as homework. The answers to about half the Egyptian-English exercises are available on the net - I don't have the address here at the moment though. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Datation Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:34:13 -0000 >I am in my first year of hieroglyph studies. We are currently studiing the >datation. >Does any one know if the months had name ? >If yes, what were these names ? As far as I know, the Egyptians did not have names for specific months. They dated their calender by seasons ( Axt / prt / Smw ) each of four months in length. The months would be called month 1 month 2 month 3 month 4 of each season, so :- month 1 of prt etc... >From the Persian period (around 525 B.C.) they used Greek names for the months. see table below July - Thouth - Month 1 of Axt - (Inundation) August - Phaophi - Month 2 of Axt September - Athyr - Month 3 of Axt October - Khoiak - Month 4 of Axt Nocvember - Tybi - Month 1 of prt - (Winter) December - Mekhir - Month 2 of prt January - Phamenoth - Month 3 of prt February - Pharmouthi - Month 4 of prt March - Pakhons - Month 1 of Smw - (Summer) April - Payni - Month 2 of Smw May - Epiph - Month 3 of Smw June - Mesore - Month 4 of Smw I hope this is some help to you Mark V nsw-bit@msn.com ============================================================================== From: "Tibs" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:09:18 -0500 Personally, I don't feel that one can just jump into translating the = Egyptian language without discussing the grammar aspect of it first. = What I sugest is this; take Gardiner's book chapter by chapter and first = have a discussion on the grammar rules and clear up any confusion that = one might have THEN attempt to do the excersises. For example in = Gardiner's lesson II (to prepare for ex. II) he talks about the pattern = in Sentences with Adverbial Predicate a)independent pronoun + adjective: I am happy ink nfr b) adjective + noun or independent pronoun: the woman is happy nfr hmt She is happy nfr sy I f we don't do the grammar correctly then later when texts get harder = then it becomes very confusing. I've seen a lot of first year = hieroglyphics students who have skipped classes and didn't do their = reading and now the professor is so ahead of them that the students are = lost and then come crying to me for help.=20 Comments?? -------- -Suzie- Kungfu@netcom.ca Pyramids: Tombs built for Egyptian Kings, or a clever attraction built = by Disney? ============================================================================== From: "Troy Sagrillo" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL AEL: Month Names and Egyptian Calendrics Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:38:00 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Mark Vygus To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: woensdag 4 maart 1998 21:30 Subject: Re: AEL Datation >As far as I know, the Egyptians did not have names for specific months. They >dated their calender by seasons ( Axt / prt / Smw ) >each of four months in length. The months would be called >month 1 >month 2 >month 3 >month 4 >of each season, so :- > >month 1 of prt etc... The Egyptians used at least two different calenders, the Civil Calendar and a lunar-based Religious Calendar. There may have been a third calendar that aimed to combine the two others, but this is debated. The calendric system described above is that of the Civil Calendar. As is noted, there are not any true month names, only a numbering of months in a given agricultural season (usually with the regnal year of the king). >>From the Persian period (around 525 B.C.) they used Greek names for the >months. >see table below > >July - Thouth - Month 1 of Axt - (Inundation) >August - Phaophi - Month 2 of Axt >September - Athyr - Month 3 of Axt >October - Khoiak - Month 4 of Axt > >Nocvember - Tybi - Month 1 of prt - (Winter) >December - Mekhir - Month 2 of prt >January - Phamenoth - Month 3 of prt >February - Pharmouthi - Month 4 of prt > >March - Pakhons - Month 1 of Smw - (Summer) >April - Payni - Month 2 of Smw >May - Epiph - Month 3 of Smw >June - Mesore - Month 4 of Smw Actually these month names are originally from the Egyptian Religious Calendar, taken in to Aramaic during the Persian period, and later into Greek; today they form the basis of the modern (and mediaeval) Coptic calendar. They were likely drawn from the names of feasts of various deities that fell in the month they name, however, there is a *great* deal of debate regarding this issue and its implications for Egyptian absolute chronology as it may be that some of the month names refer to a feast in the middle of a given month or to a feast at the end of the previous month. I would like to point out that it is not possible to correlate our Julian/Gregorian month names with the month names of the Egyptian Relgious Calendar, nor the Egyptian Religious Calendar with that of the Civil Calendar, given the current state of our knowledge (as I mentioned, there is a lot of debate regarding this issue); also, our calendar does not correlate with the Egyptian Civil Calendar save only approximately. If anyone is interested in these issues, I suggest 1st reading the basic introduction to the Egyptian Civil Calendar in Gardiner's Grammar (Excursus C, pp 203-206). The standard work, even today, on Egyptian calendrics remains Richard Anthony Parker. 1950. The Calendars of Ancient Egypt. Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization 26. Chicago: University of Chicago. (Note that Parker and Gardiner disagreed quite a lot over some of these issues.) There is also a new study of some of the problems with month names and the Religious Calendar as it relates to the Civil Calendar: Leo Depuydt. 1997. Civil Calendar and Lunar Calendar in Ancient Egypt. Orientalia lovaniensia analecta 77. Leuven, Uitgeverij Peeters and Department Oosterse Studies. And after that, there are a heap of specialists' articles that one could plough through if a glutton for pain ;-) Cheers, Troy Sagrillo Dept. of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations University of Toronto ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:25:25 +1000 (EST) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Datation Dear JC MOINET, As you know, dates were usually written as particular days of one of the 12 months of one of the three seasons (eg. 3rd month of inundation (Axt), day one....). I found the following information (below) in Gardiner (Egyptian Grammar), but I suspect there is some standard reference that is more up to date than this. Perhaps someone else can supply one. >From Gardiner, p205: "In the Aramaic papyri of the Persian period and in the subsequent Greek and Coptic documents from Egypt, the twelve months are no longer numbered and allotted to one or other of the three seasons, but receive names derived from certain feasts. The month-names in their Greek forms are Thouth, Phaophi, Athyr, Khoiak, Tybi, Mekhir, Phamenoth, Pharmohthi, Pakhon, Payni, Epiph, and Mesore. (In Dynasty 18-20) some of the originating feasts were celebrated not in the month to which they gave their name, but on the first day of the following month." Gardiner then goes on to cite some examples. Hope this is of some use, Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith >I am in my first year of hieroglyph studies. We are currently studiing the >datation. >Does any one know if the months had name ? >If yes, what were these names ? > >Thanks a lot > >JC MOINET > >Marseille (France) ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL AEL: Tomb protection signs Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:32:41 +-100 Dear AEL'ers, Can someone tell me what the sign V9 means and depicts? It's left out of the two Gardiner Sign Lists I have. :( I found it in WinGlyph though. I've seen it in the claws of the vulture goddess, but the main reason I ask: There are many Ancient Egyptian depictions around of tombs, i.e. depiction the front of tombs. And then above the entrance, a couple of symbols is depicted, no doubt signalling protection. It's basically a pair of Horus-eyes, one eye at each side of the door/roof. But with added symbols. There is slight variation among the half a dozen drawings I have seen, but it exists out of two elements below (or next to) each other. A) Large Horus Eye D10 with below it the basket (_nb_) sign V30 (sometimes the basket is missing) B) The sign V9 (from the intro), below that N35* (= 3xN35; _mw_) (in one case missing), and below that W10 (_wsx_, _j'b_, _xnt_). So together it looks like this: D10 V9 V30 N35* W10 How must I read this?? There is also a drawing that has the Horus-eye on a tomb front holding (with a little arm) the AA4-sign (_b3_), so to me that reads as short/cryptic for "the ba-spirit is protected here!" or sometime like that. Is the W10 sign above standing for AA4? Thanks for any help, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:54:56 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons In a message dated 98-03-04 13:27:46 EST, you write: << a)independent pronoun + adjective: I am happy ink nfr b) adjective + noun or independent pronoun: the woman is happy nfr hmt She is happy nfr sy I f we don't do the grammar correctly then later when texts get harder then it becomes very confusing. I've seen a lot of first year hieroglyphics students who have skipped classes and didn't do their reading and now the professor is so ahead of them that the students are lost and then come crying to me for help. Comments?? >> My comment would be that, even with this, you are going too fast for a beginner. Here is an example of how I would do this: LESSON I INTRODUCTIONS inD Hriw-tn rn-i Andre inedj heriu-ten ren-i Andre Greetings to you all! My name is Andre. If I were speaking to only one of you, I would say "inD Hri-k". This is too soon for us to go into the plural, but one cannot begin without saying "Hello". Actually, this is a very fancy greeting and was probably not used much among the common people, but one sees it in certain texts and you might as well become familiar with it. Now you have seen how a person would say his name. Now is also a perfect time for us all to forget the forms of the verb "to be", as we know it in English. This is not at all how it is done in Egyptian. In Egyptian, there is the noun "rn" (name) and, by putting an "i" on the end of it, the name becomes the property of the first person singular. "i" on the end of verbs means that "I" am doing it, have done it, or will do something in future. This should be easy for any English-speaking person to remember. However, the past and future are beyond us for the moment and we shall live in the present. When I tell you my name, I give the actual name last. But, if I say your name your the name of another person, the order is reversed: R To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AEL: Tomb protection signs Aayko Eyma wrote: > Can someone tell me what the sign > V9 means and depicts? It is Sn or Snw, the ring of protection from magic, which is the original of the cartouche placed around some of the royal names. In the hands of gods, etc., it can symbolize the granting of eternity. > > There are many Ancient Egyptian > depictions around of tombs, i.e. depiction > the front of tombs. And then above the > entrance, a couple of symbols is > depicted, no doubt signalling protection. > It's basically a pair of Horus-eyes, > one eye at each side of the door/roof. > But with added symbols. There is > slight variation among the half a dozen > drawings I have seen, but it exists out > of two elements below (or next to) > each other. > > A) Large Horus Eye D10 with below > it the basket (_nb_) sign V30 > (sometimes the basket is missing) > > B) The sign V9 (from the intro), > below that N35* (= 3xN35; _mw_) > (in one case missing), > and below that W10 (_wsx_, _j'b_, _xnt_). > > So together it looks like this: > > D10 V9 > V30 N35* > W10 > > How must I read this?? > > There is also a drawing that has > the Horus-eye on a tomb front holding > (with a little arm) the AA4-sign (_b3_), > so to me that reads as short/cryptic > for "the ba-spirit is protected here!" or > sometime like that. > Is the W10 sign above standing for AA4? > > Thanks for any help, > Aayko Eyma -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Tibs" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:41:27 -0500 >My comment would be that, even with this, you are going too fast for a >beginner. The reason that I suggested using the Gardiner grammar instead of starting with "Hi. Hello, My name is" is because some of the email I was recieving was from people who were already knee-deep into translating various texts and Gardiner excersisie, so I felt that if we discussed Gardiner's grammar bit by bit then people would get a more soild/useful background. When I was starting out in my hieroglyphics classes we didn't start with "hello" and so on, we started with the Gardiner's grammar. -------- -Suzie- Kungfu@netcom.ca Pyramids: Tombs built for Egyptian Kings, or a clever attraction built by Disney? > ============================================================================== From: "Tibs" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:45:53 -0500 >Sorry to bother you with a stupid question.. >first, let me tell you i dont know a thing of egyptian nor hyeroglyphs, >but i want to learn. >You mentioned there a book : Gardiner's, i belive, wich is tha book? i >mean, the complete title, and will it help me? The book is called 'Egyptian Grammar: Being an Introduction To The study = of Hieroglyphis' by Sir Alan Gardiner (Griffith Institute). It is the text which we used for studying hieroglyphics, and from what I gather it is th= e best text for learning hieroglyphics, although it can sometimes be hard t= o follow and a little dry. -------- -Suzie- Kungfu@netcom.ca Pyramids: Tombs built for Egyptian Kings, or a clever attraction built by Disney? > >thanks and sorry to bother you.. > Jorge V=E1squez > Caracas, Venezuela. > > > ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:19:26 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons In a message dated 98-03-04 23:21:36 EST, you write: << When I was starting out in my hieroglyphics classes we didn't start with "hello" and so on, we started with the Gardiner's grammar. >> Dear Suzie, Back in the Dark Ages, when I began to study hieroglyphs, the first thing our professor did was introduce himself , albeit in English. The problem here would be, I fear, that not everyone has a copy of the Gardiner book. In fact, I venture to say that not everyone on the list is so positive that he wishes to study Egyptian as to go out and purchase this rather expensive--although wonderful--volume. My idea was that, perhaps with an introduction to the language such as I would like to give, some people would get to the point where they might feel more ready and able to see that such an investment in Egyptian would be worthwhile. However, only one individual has expressed interest (by private mail) to continue in my way. Also, I do not see anyone expressing interest in beginning with Gardiner. So perhaps that is the "basic" problem with "Beginner's Lessons" on this list --- that people "think" they might like to learn the Egyptian language but cannot quite envision themselves actually making this effort on an ongoing, everyday basis. Andre Renouf ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:00:38 +0000 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Tony Gist Subject: Re: AEL Beginners Lessons First of all I would like to thank the members of the list who have responded to my initial request for beginners lessons. I would like to make a plea - please assume *no* prior knowledge. Personally, I have no linguistic expertise and no knowledge of a second language. So, maybe it is a tall order to teach someone with my limited experience such a complex topic. Hopefully not! Tony Gist ============================================================================== From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:19:45 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk (Ancient Egyptian Language List) Subject: AEL Fwd: Transiterations I understand that some of the transiterations do not translate well to computer and that is why we use certain other chars. for transiteration, however some times I get reeeeal confused, such as when paradigms use "jw" instead of the various dictionaries that use "iw" (for example) This lends to extra confusion when trying to work the exercises, etc. Also is there a way where we can better describe those characters that MUST be changed for computer use to be better identyfied.(ex: h with period below = H) I know this has been addressed before however, I am still meeting a mental block to incorporating the computer with the actual transliterations. (mode de Codage is no longer available on CCER) and cannot afford to purchase coputerized version or Gardiner. Any other suggestions? Thank-you. Barbara Petersen nordpete@webtv.net ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:56:38 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Fwd: AEL Exercise #1 from AEL net site Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen 'ecrit : > I'm not sure but I believe the transliteration jw should be iw. "jw" is the translitteration in the "german" tradition. "iw" is the "Gardiner" way to write the same thing. > > Exercise 1 has two parts. > Part one: > 1. jw=j Hr m33=f (I am seeing him, or I see him) > 2. jw=T r s-nm=sn (You will be feeding them) > 3. mk sw r jTj.t=n ( (Look) he will be tking us) more simply "Lo, he will take us". A short vocabulary note: in fact, 'ini' is not so much 'to bring' than 'to fetch', so "iw in.n=i" can mean "I bring back". In the same way, but very regularily, 'rx' does not mean 'to know' but 'to learn', hence the usual expression of 'to know' "iw=i rx=kwi mdw nTr" "I have learnt the hieroglyphs" hence "I know the hieroglyphs" Your translations are very good. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== From: Jcmoinet Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:09:37 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Beginners lessons For the beginners who read French, there is a good book called "Cours d'egyptien hieroglyphique" (Hieroglyphic egyptian lessons) written by Pierre Grandet and Bernard Mathieu. I can give you the address of the editor if you need it. Friendly, JC MOINET Marseille (France) ============================================================================== From: "Jason Perry" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:05:49 PST Andre, I would like to say I like your better but not everyone may agree. I have not found Gardnier's(or something). The only volume I found is Sir Budge's volume from '93. That was in a library. So I am mainly finding the lessons on the internet. 'm only using this as like a code for my group in reading(can not let thy teacher read thy notes). You're intro lesson was helpful. Thanks, Jason Perry volcanopele@hotmail.com ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:46:38 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons On 5 Mar 98 at 8:19, Andren4585 wrote: > However, only one individual has expressed interest (by private mail) to > continue in my way. Also, I do not see anyone expressing interest in > beginning with Gardiner. So perhaps that is the "basic" problem with > "Beginner's Lessons" on this list --- that people "think" they might like to > learn the Egyptian language but cannot quite envision themselves actually > making this effort on an ongoing, everyday basis. Dear Andre, As you may know, we have worked systematically through texts and exercises before on this list. We spent a good part of last year going through the story of Khufu and the magician from the Westcar papyrus, and have recently started on the autobiography of Weni. If you take a look at the AEL home page, http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ you will see links to the texts that we have been working on, as well as links to introductory lessons. Sometimes we do undergo quiet periods when people are busy with other commitments, but hopefully we can get back into the swing of things soon. Best regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== From: "Nicholas,Patrizia Myall" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Beginners lessons Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:51:18 +0100 Dear Andre I am really interested to start with the Gardiner's exercise but I am still studying lesson 2 ( I have just bought the book). However, I dont mind your way as well : it is important just to start! The only thing I retain which is important is to use the same transliteration sistem like Manuel de Codage because I start to get a bit confused. Thanks for your contribute! Patrizia Di Paolo ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:06:10 -0800 From: Kasia To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Fwd: Transiterations Hi, Some Egyptologists transliterate the reed leaf as "j", others "i". It does not indicate a different letter. I think it's mainly Faulkner & Gardener that used "i". You will also notice that "jj" and "y" are both used for the double reed leaf. I doesn't really matter which you use, as long as you're consistent. I don't have the manual de codage on my computer, I just keep a printed copy on the wall, must somebody might have one they can send to you. It takes a little while, but I find I don't even need to look at mine anymore. There's really only a few characters that are different (8 I think?). Good luck! --Kasia Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen wrote: > > I think I have my email problem taen care of. > > Barbara Petersen > nordpete@webtv.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Transiterations > Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:05:00 -0500 > From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) > To: Aegyption-L@rostau.demon.co.uk > CC: nordpete@webtv.net > > I understand that some of the transiterations do not translate well to > computer and that is why we use certain other chars. for transiteration, > however some times I get reeeeal confused, such as when paradigms use > "jw" instead of the various dictionaries that use "iw" (for example) > This lends to extra confusion when trying to work the exercises, etc. > Also is there a way where we can better describe those characters that > MUST be changed for computer use to be better identyfied.(ex: h with > period below = H) > I know this has been addressed before however, I am still meeting a > mental block to incorporating the computer with the actual > transliterations. (mode de Codage is no longer available on CCER) and > cannot afford to purchase coputerized version or Gardiner. > Any other suggestions? > Thank-you. > > Barbara Petersen > nordpete@webtv.net ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:16:12 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Fwd: Transiterations Dear Barbara Petersen, >however some times I get reeeeal confused, such as when paradigms use >"jw" instead of the various dictionaries that use "iw" (for example) Strict Manuel de Codage is "iw" not "jw". However, there are some egyptologists who prefer to use their own scheme, and will use "j" instead of "i", "3" instead of A, and ' instead of "a". Until e-mail can use specific fonts to show the true transliteration symbols this will be a problem, but generally people use the strict Manuel de Codage, and the occasional variations are not too difficult to remember. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne,Australia ============================================================================== From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:16:24 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk (Ancient Egyptian Language List) Subject: AEL Manual de Codage #2 The information that I was looking for is in lesson #3 of the AEL site, this is what I was looking for (convert to ASCII from tranliteration) Thanks to everyone who provided assistance. Barbara Petersen nordpete@webtv.net ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:17:37 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons In a message dated 98-03-06 13:12:17 EST, you write: << Dear Andre I am really interested to start with the Gardiner's exercise but I am still studying lesson 2 ( I have just bought the book). However, I dont mind your way as well : it is important just to start! The only thing I retain which is important is to use the same transliteration sistem like Manuel de Codage because I start to get a bit confused. >> This is the exercise I thought we should work on--those who have Gardiner should attempt to translate the 9 phrases. I can give the transliterations for the rest of you. 1. wbn r< m pt 2. Dd s gr st 3. xd sS m dpt r niwt 4. sDm sS pn n ptH 5. iw r< m pt Hn< i To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Help for a beginner. Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:52:45 +0100 Help! How can you tell if a word is feminine using Faulkners Dictionary? He doesn't use .t ,and I don't know which mark he uses to define the feminine. Ciao a tutti, Patrizia Di Paolo. ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:41:42 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL transliteration woes.... Dear Patrizia, The short answer is you don't and he doesn't. This is one of the major differences of opinion between the english/american transliteration system and the german/european system, ie. you have just walked into one of the familiar arguments!! Faulkner follows the simpler english/american system so you miss all the intricacies of affixes (prefixes and suffixes). The advantage is that the words themselves are easy to read and write. The disadvantage is that you lose information content on how the word was derived (morphology). Some would argue the german system is so full of dots and j/y variations you can't read the words easily. Others would argue that you can't tell the difference between many identically spelled words, because the affix information is missing. The good news is that in most cases, nouns that end in a "t", are very often feminine. There are a few exceptions, eg. father "it". Regards, Mike > Help! > How can you tell if a word is feminine using Faulkners >Dictionary? > He doesn't use .t ,and I don't know which mark he uses to define >the feminine. > > > Ciao a tutti, > Patrizia Di Paolo. ----------------------------------------------------------- Dr Mike Dyall-Smith, Dept. Microbiology and Immunology, University of Melbourne, 3052 Australia Tel: +61 3 9 344 5693 Fax: +61 3 9347 1540 e-mail: m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ----------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== From: Jcmoinet Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 11:20:50 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Length units There is a length unit called itrw, with the determinative of water. This length is 20 000 mH. But itrw is also the river (The Nile) Is there a link between those two significations ? Friendly JC MOINET Marseille (France) ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 11:07:18 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons While some of us are working on Gardiner's Lesson II, Mark has given me the go-ahead to explain some more basics of Egyptian to those who are just starting out and have no idea what Egyptian is all about. If I communicate this in an excessively simple fashion, do not be put off. I think a new language is difficult enough in the beginning without being described in grammatical terms the meaning of which some people might not even know. My goal is for all interested parties on this list to attain some understanding of Egyptian and its ways. For now, I am going to render Egyptian into something that resembles a language--but not for long! We have all got to learn to read transliteration. Somebody asked me why I write "<" for Gardiner D36. I think it avoids confusion and, besides, this is what I have accustomed myself to. Let us review a little of what we learned in the last lesson. inwk b3k-k I am your servant inuk bak-k "b3k" is the term for "servant" and the "k" added on the end denotes ownership by the second person singular. But "you" is expressed differently when something is done to "you". Here are some examples: nwt Snm wrt, Snm-s tw nut shenem wrt, shenem-s tu Nut, (the) fashioner great, she fashions you. Remember, then, that the "s" tacked on the end of "Snm" means that "she" is doing something. If a male were doing it, it would be "Snm-f". Please notice that the word for "great" is "wr". We will get to adjectives in another lesson, but this may be a good time to point out that feminine adjectives must get a "t" ending. Please get accustomed to the adjective following the noun. You will find this in most cases. Snm-s wi She fashions me Snm-s sw She fashions him Snm-s st She fashions her Snm-s n She fashions us Snm-s tn She fashions you (all) Snm-s sn She fashions them Now that the goddess Nut has created "them", we can meet these plural forms of the pronouns. ntwtn you (pl) (are) entuten ntwsn they (are) entusen How are they used? Like this: Dd n sn in Hn-f, "ntwtn ix"? djed en sen in Hen-f , "entuten ikh"? Said to them His Majesty, "You are what"? rd-k xnd-k Hr-n im-sn red-k khend-k Her-n im-sen Your two legs, you tread upon us with them Love those ending? Not? Well, that's how Egyptian is written. By now you know what you are getting into. Don't be discouraged. It's all just a matter of time and practice. Doesn't it feel good, though, to be able to read an entire Egyptian sentence, even if it's only in transliteration? Be learning the basic Egyptian "alphabet", though. One of these days some kind soul will put a simple text like "The Tale of the Two Brothers" on the website for us and we will start to translate actual Egyptian writing. Every bookstore worth its salt has a little book explaining the glyphs in an easy manner. I suggest you invest in one if you are still keen to do this. With the use of prepositions like "with", "for", "to", etc., the situation looks like this: Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 11:20:48 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Genitive I have a problem understanding the difference between direct and undirect genitive. How do I have to use them ? Thanks for your help. JC MOINET Marseille (France) ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:33:30 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons In a message dated 98-03-07 13:09:39 EST, I wrote: << nHm tn-wi neHem ten-wi Deliver ye me! (one never commands more than one person with putting "tn" after the verb) >> I meant to say "one never commands more than one person WITHOUT putting "tn" after the verb. Sorry. Andre Renouf ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:50:32 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Genitive In a message dated 98-03-07 13:04:44 EST, you write: << I have a problem understanding the difference between direct and undirect genitive. How do I have to use them ? >> Well, the direct genitive has no genitival adjective. Gardiner gives the following examples on pages 65 and 66: Direct: imyr pr overseer (of) (the) house nb im3x lord/possessor (of) veneration rx xrt-ib nb-f knowing the desire (of) his lord Filiation is sometimes expressed by the help of the direct genitive: i To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: transliteration woes..... Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:12:34 +0100 Dear Mike, thanks a lot for your explanation about feminine suffixes but now I have a new question. Where can I find a list of masculine nouns ending with "t"? (so I can memorize them). regards Patrizia ============================================================================== From: Andren4585 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:47:42 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Length units In a message dated 98-03-07 13:03:39 EST, you write: << There is a length unit called itrw, with the determinative of water. This length is 20 000 mH. But itrw is also the river (The Nile) Is there a link between those two significations ? >>` Very interesting question! No doubt the "itr" was a length unit, but the water det. is present in all words having to do with "depth". I had read that an "itr" was a distance of 3,000 cubits (mH), each royal cubit being about 20 inches. Thus, the "iter" would be equal to between 1,500 and 1,600 metres. Since a fathom only amounts to six feet, one wonders what sort of depth could be implied there! ! Perhaps the determinative has to do with "watered land" (itrw) that is being measured--fertile ground. Andre Renouf Anre Renouf ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:02:36 +1000 (EST) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Re: transliteration woes..... Dear Patrizia, Going over Geoff's lessons for beginners, lesson 2 had a lot to say about nouns. Have you read: http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/exercises/exercise2.html He gives father "it" and tree "xt" as the common examples of masculine nouns ending in "t". Remember those two and you should be able to go for quite a while! Regards, Mike >Dear Mike, thanks a lot for your explanation about feminine suffixes but >now I have a new question. Where can I find a list of masculine nouns >ending with "t"? (so I can memorize them). > regards > Patrizia ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 11:49:25 +0000 From: Geoff Ponton To: Aegyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Beginners Lessons I'm feeling rather concerned about the discussion on Ancient Egyptian for beginners. For me (and, I once thought, for everyone) the pleasure of learning some Egyptian is the use and appreciation of hieroglyphs - learning Egyptian should be an aesthetic pleasure and there's no aesthetic pleasure in transliteration. I know glyphs can't be used in email but, let's face it, transliteration is not the real thing - it's not even a transliteration of the real thing! Unpronounced hieroglyphs are not included so that it is not possible to transliterate back to the proper hieroglyphs. Egyptian is hieroglyphs and beginners need hieroglyphs! What to do about this? It's a problem and I'd like to hear suggestions. One solution would be to have a beginner's web site but this would need someone with the time and expertise to set it up and maintain it. It would also before too long become a rather large site. But isn't it worth investigating? Another way would be to use code that could be translated straight back into hieroglyphs such as those in Winglyph. The demo version is easily available free from the CCER site (www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/). If we did that then, for example, M17-Y5:N35-X1-G43-X1-S34 could be turned into hieroglyphs without difficulty. Like most people I have only a limited amount of time I can use for this fascinating subject. So we do need a slow, steady, *orderly* progress in beginner's lessons. Any comments or suggestions? Bring back the hieroglyphs! Geoff P. -- ------------------------------------- -- danny33@danny33.demon.co.uk A true scientific vision: austere, tragic, alienated and supremely beautiful. A world that isn't for anything; a world that is just there. - Jerry Fodor ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 16:22:29 -0800 From: Kasia & Malcolm Jarrett To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Length units Hi! >From my understanding an jtrw is a measturement based on the distance one can travel within a particular unit of time, along the nile. This explains why the lengths seem to vary (in the AmDuat for example) & it explains the determinative. Ciao! --Kasia Szpakowska (NELC, UCLA) Jcmoinet wrote: > > There is a length unit called itrw, with the determinative of water. > This length is 20 000 mH. > > But itrw is also the river (The Nile) > > Is there a link between those two significations ? > > Friendly > > JC MOINET > > Marseille (France) ============================================================================== From: "Tibs" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:34:06 -0500 I guess I missed alot in the 4 days that I was sick. What made you change your mind and decide to use Gardiner after all? -------- -Suzie- Kungfu@netcom.ca Pyramids: Tombs built for Egyptian Kings, or a clever attraction built by Disney? ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:14:21 +1000 (EST) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Length units Dear JC Moinet, Gardiner, p199, discusses lengths, and specifically mentions the "itrw". To quote:- "A much larger linear measure was the ... "itrw", 'river-measure', the Greek 'schoenus', now estimated on good grounds at 20,000 cubits = 10.5 km. However, in one place as smaller "itrw" occurs in conjunction with the "xt" 'rod', and with two fractions of this which .... measure area." He gives an example of the distance between stela on the hill east of Akhetaten, translated as "makes 6 'itrw', 1.75 rods, and 4 cubits." I assume the 'river-measure' originally meant a measure of distances along a river, since travel up and down the Nile would be so common. Regards, Mike >There is a length unit called itrw, with the determinative of water. >This length is 20 000 mH. > >But itrw is also the river (The Nile) > >Is there a link between those two significations ? > >Friendly > >JC MOINET > >Marseille (France) ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:24:26 +0000 Subject: AEL Minerals question CC: "Steve Neeley" Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned. Please address replies to psneeley@gte.net ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "Steve Neeley" To: "Mark Wilson" Subject: Re: Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:30:54 -0700 From reading Carol Andrews' 'Amulets of Ancient Egypt' I have been able to find the ancient Egyptian words for the following: Cornelian = Herset Lapsi lazuli = Khesbed Turquoise = Mefkat Can someone tell me the words for the following materials: Amethyst Obsidian Fieldspar (Amazon Stone) These materials are used in the pieces of a game I'm working on and I'd like to use the Egyptian words for these gem-stones if possible. Thanks for any help you can give, Steve ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 14:47:04 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Manual de Codage, seeing hieroglyph Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen 'ecrit : > The is where can someone get a copy of the Manual de Codage system > without buying Gardiner's Grammar, can not afford this investment just > now. > > Barbara Petersen > nordpete@webtv.net As has been stated, the demo version of Glyph contains a large part of glyph's interpretation of the manual. For those who want to visualise hieroglyphs written in Manuel de Codage, see web page : http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/try0.html regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Subject: AEL Transliterations From: Mr G. Haines To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:01:25 +0000 Transliterations. If you are finding it difficult to read Ancient Egyptian, you might like to try your hand at compiling a dictionary of transliterations, using the Roman alphabet system used for modern African Languages. Once you have done this, you will have a dictionary of pronouncable words which are much easier to remember. The usual tradition in Egyptology is to insert an "e" as an aid to pronouncation, but this method tends to introduce vocalisations which do not correspond to any exant African word. The spelling system used for Swahili is a good choice, since it only uses the normal letters of the alphabet found on an ordinary typewriter. With this system, you don't have to use any diacritics or weird symbols. For example with the word "nfr" (good) would traditionally be transliterated "nefer", but using Swahil othography, you could transliterate it "nfuri" (The Swahili word for good is "Nzuri"). It should be born in mind that the resulting transliterations are ficticious, but they do produce a language which can be spoken. It is not to be thought that Swahili (or any other African language) is a form of Ancient Egyptian - swahili contains words from many languages such as "Komputa", "Mashine ya fax" and "Teksi". Ethopian has similarities with Egyptian, but these similarities should not be taken to literally: the fact that a similar word exists in another language does not necessarily mean that there is an etymological relationship. Suggested proceedure. 1. Download all the on-line dictionaries that you can find, Akadian, Hebrew, Kikongo, Ethopian etc. 2. Search the dictionaries for each AEL word, to establish a possible vocalisation. Here are some clues: Sound Change. >From the earliest days of comparative philology, it was noticed that the sounds of related languages corresponded in apparently systematic ways. The most famous of these "sound shifts" were worked out by Jacob Grimm in 1822, and have become known as "Grimm's Law". Grimm noticed that where a word in Sanskrit, Latin or Greek began with P, the same word would begin with F in a Germanic Language. e.g. Latin: Pater, English: Father. According to Grimm, this also works for other consonants, so that for instance, words begining with C in French will begin with H in English. eg. French: English cheval, Horse coeur, Heart cent, Hundred etc. The circular relationship between these correspondences is a major feature. G becomes K which becomes X, which becomes GH, which then becomes G again. T becomes TH which becomes DH, which becomes D, which then becomes T again. P becomes F which becomes BH which becomes B, which then becomes B again. In summary: G -> K -> X ->GH -> G T -> TH -> DH -> D - >T P -> F ->BH - B-> -> P In addition these correspondences have been noted: "M" is often exchanged for "N" "M" often becomes "B" e.g arabic "bazagurnna" for "mezzogiorno" ("mid-day rest") "R" and "L" are often confuted. e.g arabic "let" becomes "ret" ("oh that") "GI" is often exchanged with "DI" e.g arabic "adibo" for "agibo" (I will bring it) "K" may be pronounced "G" "H" at the end of a word may be dropped or an "H" may be added to a word ending in a vowel. "D" may be dropped at the end of a word. e.g Arabic "usta", for "ustad", ("master"). "S" may be used instead of "SH". eg. arabic "Sagar" instead of "Shagar" ("tree") "W" may be "G" e.g. French "Guillume" for"William" Have fun. Please report any findings to "Gavin.Haines@btinternet.com" ============================================================================== Subject: AEL MacScribe Demo From: Mr G. Haines To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:03:41 +0000 Hieroglyphics with MacScribe Demo You can use the demo version of Mac Scribe to view hieroglypics obtained from the AEL web page. Proceed as follows. 1. Download a copy of "MacScribe" 2. Download a copy of "Creator Changer" from a Mac archive (try WWW.download.com) 3. Put "Simple Text" (part of S7.5) on your computer (if you previously removed it) 4. From your browser, go FILE save as text e.g. "TEST" 5. Launch Mac Sribe and go FILE SAVE AS e.g. "ANUBIS" 6. Launch Simple Text 7. From Simple Text, go FILE OPEN....and load the file you just saved. e.g. "ANUBIS" You'll see the following: ++Created by : MacScribe 1.2b4 =A9 1989-1993 =C9ric Aubourg +ORL 8. From Simple Text, go File Open...and load in the file you previously saved from your web browser, (in this example is was called "TEST") and you'll see e.g. the following: aHa-D36:D54-p:Z7-ir:n-sw-t:n-zA-G5-D37:D37-f-A50-r-md-d:t-A2-D{{25,0,95} }&&d{{51,109,58}}-f-#-.-.-#-A2-n-z{{25,425,100}}:p{{40,5,100}}-#-.-.-! #-.-#-.-.-#-m-r:x-Y1:t-n-n:t-tyw-M33\t1-Z9:D54-D35-r:x-Y1:n-X1-Z7-mA:Aa1 1-D36:X1*Z5-Y1:Z2-r-g:r-grg-G37:Z2-! .-#-. 9. Now, cut and paste this to the file you called "ANUBIS". The beginning of your file in the window called "ANUBIS" now looks like this: ++Created by : MacScribe 1.2b4 =A9 1989-1993 =C9ric Aubourg +ORL aHa-D36:D54-p:Z7-ir:n-sw-t:n-zA-G5-D37:D37-f-A50-r-md-d:t-A2-D{{25,0,95} etc. etc. (the rest of the hieroglypic text) 10. Now save this file under another name and call it e.g. "OSIRIS" 11. Launch "Creator changer" and click on the file called "OSIRIS" and clic= k on "Make Like" and select any MacScribe File, (in this example, it was called ANUBIS). 12. Your Simple Text file has now become a MacSribe file, and you can view the hieroglypics. Explanatory note: MacScribe is an Apple Mac program for typesetting hieroglyphs. It can be purchased from the CCER and details are available at the CCER web site, where you can download a demo version. The demo version can read (ie. show you the hieroglyphs corresponding to the text files) and print these files, although they some signs will have lines through them. Even the demo version will enable you to look at the files, as well as any other pieces of hieroglyphic text in Glyph/Macscribe format (which are sometimes sent as part of the AEL discussion). =A0 ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: Re: AEL Sinuhe Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:51:01 +0100 Dear Suzie, anything you want to know about Sinuhe but are afraid to ask you can find in a special bibliography on Sinuhe with more than 350 entries at http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~aegypt/sinlit.htm It was prepared by Orell Witthuhn (aegypt@mailer.uni-marburg.de) and has the following categories: - hieroglyphic and hieratic editions, - grammars and handbooks (using Sinuhe), - discussions/explanations of the text, - translations If this doesn't help, nothing can. Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: Re: AEL Length units Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:51:09 +0100 Dear JC Moinet, the "Lexikon der Aegyptologie", Vol. III, column 1200, entry "Masse und Gewichte" (Measures and Weights) has this to say: "For long distances there is the measure jtrw since the time of the kiosk of Sesostris of Karnak of 20,000 cubits = ca. 10.5 km, obviously rightly explained as the distance which has to be drawn by a towing crew." [my translation] citing a dissertation by Adelheid Schlott, Die Ausmasse Aegyptens, Tuebingen, 1969, p. 132. Therefore one can conclude that there is indeed a etymological connection between jtrw "river" and jtrw "river-measure of length". Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 19:09:17 +0000 From: Westland@netcomuk.co.uk To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL sitting? I have recently read that the sitting figure classifies the person as among the gods and that it therefore is usually shown as part of the written name of Eygptian deities and is displayed among the hieroglyphs written over their sketched portraits. Could anyone explain the significance of this sitting figure or the sitting position, the why and wherefore of its uses etc, any information would be received gratefully...thank you Julie. ==============================================================================