Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:42:55 +0200 From: "Luka Trkanjec" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL T-V distinction in Ancient Egyptian Dear all, Is there any evidence that in the Egyptian language, at any point in it's long history, there was a distinction in second person between an informal, singular form ("thou" in old English) and more formal, plural form ("ye"/"you")? AFAIK, there is a variant of such distinction present in modern Egyptian Arabic, even though modern Arabic doesn't have it. thanks in advance -- best regards, Lucius ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:36:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Weben Banu Subject: AEL The hdn-branch, Thoth, and the name of Hathor To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hello, everyone! In an article by Harold H. Nelson titled "The Rite of 'Bringing the Foot' as Portrayed in Temple Reliefs' Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 35(1976), 82-86, the author explains that the retreating priest used a bundle of hdn-plant in this exit rite. Here, it is written hdn, but a friend tells me that he distinctly remembers seeing a dot under the h in a different article. Gardiner notes in a different article that the hdn-plant was sacred to Thoth, who is "Lord of the Hdn." (The ref. is Davies-Gardiner, Tomb of Amenemhet, pp. 94-5). I have looked through my grammars and my copy of Faulkner's Concise, and can not find a reference to either hdn or Hdn. I'm intrigued to know what kind of plant the hdn was- can any of you with the German dictionaries take a look for me, or does anyone else remember hearing of this plant before? If so, can you give me a source to look up? Also, I was looking at the transliteration of Hathor's name- which shows up in one of my dictionaries as Ht-Hrw, and one as Ht-Hr. I have heard that the reconstructed vowels render this name as something like Hoot-Hoor, or Haut-Hoor. The Sahidic Coptic writing of the name, hathôr, seems to bear this out- but I was wondering. I know that the ancient Egyptians didn't always write their letters in the order that they were pronounced, and I know that w's are weak consonants which are often dropped off the ends of words. But looking at the second part of that name, you'd think it would be Haut-Heroo instead of -Hoor. Is it possible to both write the w out of order *and* drop it, or is the "oo" we see in the second part of the name a distinct vowel from the w- which was dropped. Or am I completely off the mark with this pronunciation to begin with? How would you pronounce the name? Many thanks, everyone! I hope that you find this as interesting as I do! Katherine ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:02:57 -0400 From: msesheta To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL The hdn-branch The much maligned Budge has hdn listed as: "A plant used in the making of incense" An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary - Volume 1 - page 452 His spelling is heten with Gardiner D46 for the "t" Nothing more is said about what kind of plant it is. I hope you can find more information. Shelley Weben Banu wrote: ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:53:45 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL The hdn-branch msesheta wrote: > > The much maligned Budge has hdn listed as: > > "A plant used in the making of incense" > > An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary - Volume 1 - page 452 > > His spelling is heten with Gardiner D46 for the "t" > > Nothing more is said about what kind of plant it is. I hope you can > find more information. > > Shelley The also maligned Boylan has for hdn, if I remember correctly, "calamus". ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:44:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Grant Hicks To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL The hdn-branch The Beinlich wordlist has hdn [Pflanze, Material f=C3=BCr Wedel] which I take to mean (I'm no expert in German) a plant that was used for sweeping (according to "The New English-German Dictionary (http://tinyurl.com/26ffk4), Wedel = duster, frond, whisk). Modern brooms are made out of broomcorn (Sorghum vulgare), which IIRC is related to plants known to have been grown in the ancient Near East and Africa (varieties of millet). Grant ============================================================================== From: "gilbert" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL The hdn-branch Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 05:14:18 +0800 Try the Open Forum of Glyphdoctors=2E http://www=2Eglyphdoctors=2Ecom The owner of the site is an Egyptologist (Ph=2ED=2E) and there are some Egyptologists answering questions that have an encyclopaedic mind for anything Egyptian=2E Good Luck Gilbert ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL re: The hdn-branch Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:33:45 +0200 Gilbert: Try AEL, where there are a lot of enthousiastic people who have an encyclopaedic mind for anything Egyptian. ;o Dear Weben, >can any of you with the German > dictionaries take a look for me, or does **Okay, below. Apparently the exact plant species is not known with certainty. > In an article by Harold H. Nelson titled "The Rite of > 'Bringing the Foot' as Portrayed in Temple Reliefs' > Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 35(1976), 82-86, the > author explains that the retreating priest used a > bundle of hdn-plant in this exit rite. **Hannig and WB only say that the plant came from Nubia, Hannig mentions the rite you signal as: jn rd m hdn jnt aA = "Spur verwischen mit Heden-Reisig und Verschlieszen der Tuer (Szene im Kultbildritual)" So the plant feautured in a bundle of twigs (Reisel) used to wipe away footsteps. WB calls that instrument a "Wedel" (fan). I guess it depends on whether the plant had a woody nature (like a witch's broom) or not. Det. was usual M2 (plant), but in Greco-Roman period also M1 (tree). >Here, it is > written hdn, but a friend tells me that he distinctly > remembers seeing a dot under the h in a different > article. **Probably a modern error. Hannig and WB only give as variants hDn and hAdn, and Greco-Roman period htn. > Gardiner notes in a different article that the > hdn-plant was sacred to Thoth, who is "Lord of the > Hdn." (The ref. is Davies-Gardiner, Tomb of Amenemhet, > pp. 94-5). **WB says that in the Greco-Roman period, nb htn was an epitheth of Thot, and he also had the name htnj. Hannig says that there was a festival called hdn Hwt-Hr "Reisig der Hathor". BUT as Robert said, Boylan p. 212 says that Hdn can mean calamu, a reed used by scribes. So the mentioned epithets of Thoth refer to the writing material, not the plants/brooms. Which would mean that the large ritual hdn would also mean something like "brush", I guess. I found this reference: Goyon, Jean-Claude. Une identification possible de la plante hdn des anciens Égyptiens. In: Fs Westendorf (1984), pp. 241-250. He suggests the plant could be "Bypleurum", which is attested in the manufacture of brooms and in pharmacy, and its bad smell is suited to keep insects out of the temple. (free after AEB) (I suspect this is the same as Bupleurum??) He will probably have references to older theories. Also of interest may be: Nelson, H. H., The Rite of "Bringing the Foot" as portrayed in Temple Reliefs, JEA 35 (1949), 82-86 HTH Aayko Eyma ==============================================================================