From: "Daniel Hunt" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL A new etymology of Djehuty? Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 07:15:18 -0600 Hi, Bob. I don't have these words in my dictionaries - but, then, I only possess Faulkner and Shennum. Can you please tell me where you found these? I suppose the question would be, "How to relate a blade or the act of hacking up to a baboon?" Although Thoth certainly had his martial aspect and baboons can be very violent (I saw a nature film on PBS not long ago which showed the "king" of a troop chase down, catch, kill and devour a young gazelle!), neither possesses a blade that it used to cut things up. Unless, of course, "blade" is being used metaphorically for one of the large incisors, which can do a lot of damage. Still, I do not find Thoth's teeth or his use of them being mentioned in texts or shown in the iconography Does anyone else know of an instance of either? Best, Daniel ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:49:12 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL A new etymology of Djehuty? Hi, Mr. Hunt; I got those from C. Busch's computer dictionary called Hieropreter. I think he cites among his sources the Hannig dictionary and the Beinlich Word List, as well as another list from Meeks? I recently saw a program on PBS about baboons where the king took exception to an offense by a tribe member who had been accepted from outside. The dominant baboon used his fang to lay open the face of the offender. It looked horrible, as if the animal had been attacked with an axe, and never did close up. But, luckily, it didn't become infected and the chastised troop member retained his life and his membership. But, I also hypothesize that, since baboons were kept as pets and were even taught to collect figs, one may have laid hold of a human's knife and drolly threatened the family until it was taken away. If this happened, it would likely have been an anecdote that would have lived long in its telling. Such an image could have been cultivated as a bogeyman. I think that Thoth has a generally benign image. When the god took exception at the theft of a book of secrets, He reported this to Ra, who drowned the culprits. Amenemope also mentions the Baboon as one who will drown the "scribe who cheats". But, a god with a benign image usually keeps it, for example; some texts have Hathor attempting to destroy mankind and Sekhmet as the apothecary who ground the red ochre for Ra to color the beer. In later texts, the ferocious aspect of Hathor is absorbed by Sekhmet. I am guessing that we can't have the goddess of love being represented as too savage, so Sekhmet accepted the "rap". Best regards, Bob ============================================================================== From: "Daniel Hunt" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Djeh as 'knife' Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:23:34 -0600 Thank you, Bob. Thoth had his martial function. He is the one "great in slaughter", "he "who overthrows the enemy in every land", "who overthrows the foes", etc. My research seems to indicate this was especially true of Thoth in the east. I also watched the same PBS show. But I maintain that the incisor itself, with its razor-sharp edge, could have seen as a blade or knife, metaphorically speaking. I think it makes more sense to think of the natural weapon of the baboon as yielding a name DH( w ), than that an animal at some time had actually utilized a real knife. Had the latter been the case, we would expect to have this represented somewhere in the mythology or iconography for Thoth. For now, since it seems that DH of Djeh does indeed have the meaning knife or blade, I'm content with viewing DHwt.y as 'He of the knife [-like fang]'. I appreciate your help with this. Best wishes, Daniel ============================================================================== From: "Daniel Hunt" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL A new etymology of Djehuty? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:56:47 -0600 I am still confused about the words DH, knife, and DHDH, "to hack up", Bob - especially after going to the Beinlich: @ DH & [Leinenstoff] !! Wb V S. 605 !! [lines material] @ DH & [Metall] !! Wb V S. 605 !! [metal] @ DHA & (Verbum vom Zustand des Getreides) !! Wb V S. 605 !! (verb of the condition of the grain) @ DHA & Abgabe !! Wb V S. 605 !! duty @ DHAw & Sieb(?) !! Meeks: AL 77.5268 !! sieve (?) @ DHa & Leder !! Wb V S. 605 !! leather @ DHa & (Verbum) !! Wb V S. 605 !! (verb) @ DHwtj & Thot !! Wb V S. 606 !! Thot @ DHwtj.t & [Fest] !! Wb V S. 606 !! [festival] @ DHrt & [Gef^a^s] !! %>Cern%/y: C.E.D. S. 314; Meeks: AL 77.5273 !! [container] @ DHtj & Blei !! Wb V S. 606 !! lead @ DHDH & [Gott] !! Wb V S. 607 !! [God] @ DHDH & vernichten !! Wb V S. 607 !! destroy @ DHDH & [Affe] !! Wb V S. 607 !! [ape] Here DH is 'metal', from which I suppose 'knife' could be extrapolated. DHDH is "destroy". But it would appears the meanings you cite must either come from Hannig or Meeks. Can anyone else on the list kindly confirm the meanings 'knife' and 'to hack up' from DH and DHDH, respectively? Daniel ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:46:16 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Djeh as 'knife' Daniel Hunt wrote: > Thoth had his martial function. He is the one "great in slaughter", "he "who overthrows > the enemy in every land", "who overthrows the foes", etc. My research seems to indicate this > was especially true of Thoth in the east. Especially those pesky post-Hyksos herders, I would imagine? The additional inference of DHDH as "to destroy by means of a metal instrument" is mine by way of DH as knife and the possible sound of the word imitating its meaning. I suppose the actual texts could tell us whether this is appropriate. An example of DHDH meaning "to destroy by fire" would weaken my interpretation. My intention is to toss up as much data as possible, and let the experts form the interpretation, I guess. > I also watched the same PBS show. But I maintain that the incisor itself, with its > razor-sharp edge, could have seen as a blade or knife, metaphorically speaking. I > think it makes more sense to think of the natural weapon of the baboon as yielding > a name DH( w ), than that an animal at some time had actually utilized a real knife. > Had the latter been the case, we would expect to have this represented somewhere in > the mythology or iconography for Thoth. Or, at least, we might somewhere eventually expect to find a depiction of DHDH with a knife or two? I seem to remember some AmDuat scenes with knife-bearing baboons? Not sure... Sorry, I was born absent-minded. But, as Babi was a baboon deity distinctly separate from Thoth, this may similarly be the case with Djehdjeh, but I have not come across a relevant narrative. > For now, since it seems that DH of Djeh does indeed have the meaning knife or blade, > I'm content with viewing DHwt.y as 'He of the knife [-like fang]'. It sounds like you may be on to something, there. If knife were a feminine noun, though, would we perhaps expect to find the singular ending in .t? How about the form of the name of Thoth: does it perhaps suggest two knives, like a pair of cuspid teeth? Not sure if it is relevant, but I think I remember reading something in the Coffin Texts about a Lake of Two Knives. Anyway, there are Coptic monasteries in Ethiopia who might know first hand about flocks of ibises or troops of baboons, and how they become seasonally more approachable (or not). Bob ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:54:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Oleg Boyko Subject: Re: AEL A new etymology of Djehuty? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List In Thesaurus Linguae Aegyptiae http://aaew.bbaw.de/tla/index.html there is a word DH.tj meaning "lead". I think this is more likely to be a nisba of DH with whatever meaning. The same Thesaurus gives DH for "a kind of linen cloth" and "a metal". The Thesaurus is mainly based on Beintlich with some additions. In my opinion if DHwtj is indeed a nisba, it should be derived from possibly unattested *DHw. However, DH assumption is also worth of giving it closer look. DHDH is rendered as "a name of a god", "to kill" and "an ape". I tried hypothetical causative s. stems and reflexive n. stems: sDH = shin, lower leg, a serpent, a bird nDH.t a tooth nDHDH related to a heart condition (in German: ill condition), and another nDHDH a savior god of Osiris. There are no entries for *sDHw and *nDHw The results of this search may belong to the same semantic area as DHwtj-Thoth: sDH a bird maybe derived from the same biconsonantal unattested root as DHwtj. As for n-stems, they seemingly all are connected to DHDH. It seems we can assume that DH meaning metal is a successor of another *DH having meant just a general concept for anything sharp that can cut. The intensive stem DHDH meaning 'to kill' fits this well, as well as nDHDH for 'tooth'. Another possibility DH for a linen cloth, for a metal and nDHDH for a tooth may have been derived from a concept "bright", then stretched to "to kill" (with a sharp metal weapon with the bright blade.) Why not? Ape is also somewhere in this area: white teeth? brutal murderous anymal, sharp claws? Unfortunately, I do not have resources to make further investigation. It would be great to know what exactly bird and serpend sDH are, and who the gods DHDH and nDHDH are. Perhaps, here the clue to DHwtj could be. Best regards, Oleg ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:22:35 +0200 From: "Luka Trkanjec" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Upper Egypt in hieroglyphs Dear list members, Can anyone enlighten me, please? I am puzzled by the exact meaning of hieroglyphic name of Upper Egypt, which I found to be tA Smaw or Smaw , with the main glyph being the reed-sing sw (M23 in Gardiner). Now, since Sma, Smaw written in same way (but with determinative for man added) means musician(s), I wonder if, translated literaly, tA Smaw would be Land of Reed or Land of Music(ians)??? best regards, with many thanks in advance Luka Trkanjec ============================================================================== From: "Nicole B. Hansen" Subject: Re: AEL Upper Egypt in hieroglyphs To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:16:55 -0500 (CDT) The most plausible explanation I have seen is from Werner Vicychl. He suggested in his _Dictionnaire =E9tymologique de la langue copte_ that the name was related to the word Sma, meaning "thin." He suggested it referred to the narrowness of the Nile Valley as opposed to the Nile Delta. Nicole Hansen, Ph.D. http://www.glyphdoctors.com Chicago, USA PS-I don't remember if I have mentioned it before on this list but we are now offering discounts on our hieroglyphs course for those who wish to sign up for all three units at once. See the Glyphdoctors Web site for details. ============================================================================== From: "Daniel Hunt" To: Cc: "eef" Subject: AEL Asiatic name in Egyptian Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:22:13 -0600 Does anyone have a copy of Schneider's Asiatische Personennamen in agyptischen Quellen des Neuen Reiches? I would like to check this source for the name Yupaao (Yupa'o?), a man mentioned in Egyptian records as hailing from Bashan. I can only think of the Semitic root yp' meaning 'to shine', but have been unable to procure Schneider's book. Thank you. Daniel Hunt ============================================================================== From: "Daniel Hunt" To: Subject: AEL qH.t 'part of the sky'? Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:46:39 -0600 Can list members tell me in what context qH.t, 'part of the sky', is used? I found this listed in the Thesaurus Linguae Aegyptiae. And would I be right in rendering this qehet? Thank you. Daniel Hunt ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 21.15 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:20:39 -0500 21.14 aHa.n mdw r.s m xA n wHm(w) n wart mHtt Looks like a straightforward use of the passive as the main verb of the sentence. mdwj (verb 4-weak): 'to speak' mdw is the passive form, translated as 'it was spoken'. r.s (prep. phrase): 'about it' mdw r.s - "It was spoken about (it)" xA (noun): 'office' wHm(w) (noun): 'herald' wart (noun): 'district' mHtt (nisbe): 'northern' aHa.n (introductory particle): 'then' "Then it was spoken about in the office of the herald of the Northern district." 21.15 aHa.n mdw r.s m xA n wHm(w) n wart mHtt Then it was spoken about in the office of the herald of the northern sector. aHa.n = ?Then?, introductory word mdw = ?was spoken?, passive of mdwj (4AE-inf.) with no expressed subject r.s = ?concerning it?, prepositional phrase m xA = ?in the office?, prepositional phrase n wHmw n wart mHtt = ?of the herald of the northern sector?, indirect genitives This sentence starts with aHa.n, and so the verb mdw must be a sDm.f form that refers to past action. Although this could be the perfective, it is more likely to be the passive. The remainder of the sentence consists of prepositional phrases. So the verb has no expressed subject. This also points to the verb being passive. Hence the sentence begins Then (it) was spoken, followed by r.s, about it. The sentence concludes with a preposition m whose object is a long noun phrase, including two indirect genitives: xA n wHmw n wart mHtt, the office of the herald of the northern sector?. 21.15 aHa.n mDw r.z m xa wHmw n wart mHtt aHa.n - then (continuing the narrative) mDwj - to speak, here, passive form r.z - about it m - in xa - office wHmw n wart mHtt - herald of the northern sector (Allen) SO: Then it was spoken about in the office of the herald of the northern sector ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 21.14 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:20:04 -0500 21.14 wnn.f m pt mj jaH words: wnn situation has not yet happened; so = he will be m pt = in the sky mj jaH = like the moon m pt mj jaH = adverbial predicate finally: he will be in the sky like the moon 21.14 wnn.f m pt mj jaH wnn - verb to be, here prospective form f - 3M posessive suffix m - in pt - sky mj - like jaH - moon SO: You will be in the sky like the moon. 21.14 wnn.f m pt mj jaH wnn = verb 2ae-gem = exist,be wnn.f = prospective + suffix pronoun = he will be m = preposition = in pt = noun = sky mj = like jaH = moon last sign is determinative for divine wnn.f m pt mj jaH = He will be in the sky like the (divine) moon 21.14 read from right to left wnn.f m pt mj jaH wnn.f - verb, 2ae-inf. geminated, plus 3MS suffix pronoun, prospective = he will be m - preposition = in pt - noun = sky This with the above 'm' is an indirect genitive and also the direct object of the sentence. mj - preposition = like jaH - noun = moon This word plus the above preposition are the indirect object. =He will be in the sky, like the moon. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 21.13 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:19:27 -0500 21.13 jw HApw Xt jr n.f jkmw One who is discreet, a shield has been made for him. jw introductory particle HApw Xt = discreet, literally concealed of belly jr = ?has been made, passive n.f = for him, dative jkmw = a shield?, subject of jr Allen's dictionary give the meaning of HApw Xt as discreet. It comes from the verb HAp, to hide and literally means concealed of belly. Because of the w ending, I suspect HApw is a participle. The phrase has the nature of an adjective used on its own as noun one who is discreet After that is jr n.f jkmw. Here the dative n.f refers back to HApw Xt, which is an example of a preposed noun phrase (topicalization). Compare the examples in §18.4 p.227 where the direct object of the verb is preposed. The subject of the verb is jkmw, shield. Context strongly suggests that the verb must be passive. A shield is unlikely to be the actor.; i.e. a shield can be made, but a shield cannot make anything. Also, if the sentence is active it doesn't make sense without a direct object, i.e. the something that is made. 21.13 transliteration: jw HApw Xt jr n.f jkmw translation: (As for) the discreet one, a shield has been made for him This sentence consists of a single clause containing a verb in the passive. It begins with the particle 'jw' 'HApw Xt' is a participial phrase that literally means "(one) who is concealed of belly". This is an idiom for "(one) who is discreet". The appearance of this phrase before the verb is for the purpose of specifying the topic of the sentence (topicalization). It is resumed by the suffix pronoun 'f' attached to the preposition 'n' later in the sentence. The verb in this sentence is 'jr' which is the passive of the 3ae-inf. verb 'jrj' ("make"). The subject of the sentence is 'jkmw' which means "shield". The passive in main clauses is used to express completed action or as a past tense; thus, 'jr jkmw' can be translated "a shield was made" or "a shield has/had been made". The prepositional phrase 'n.f' means "for him". This is a dative, and it precedes the nominal subject since it involves a suffix pronoun. 21.13 jw HApw Xt jr n.f jkmw "The one who is discreet, a shield has been made for him." jw - introductory particle HApw Xt - noun phrase "concealed of belly" an idiom for "discreet" jr - passive of the verb jrj "make, do" n.f - dative "for him" jkmw - noun shield Literally we have, "The discrete (one), a shield has been made for him." HApw Xt is topicallized by placing it first, and then echoed in the suffix pronoun of the dative. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 21.12 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:18:52 -0500 21.12 transliteration: jr wnn.k m sSm(w) Hr wD sxr(w) n aSAt H(j)Hj n.k zp nb mnx translation: If you are a leader commanding the conduct of a multitude, seek for yourself every beneficial/worthwhile deed. This is a conditional sentence. It starts off with the protasis which is marked by 'jr'. 'jr' is followed by 'wnn.k m sSmw'. 'wnn' is the prospective form of the 2ae-gem. verb 'wnn'. Attached to 'wnn' is the 2MS suffix pronoun 'k' which serves as the subject ("you") of the sentence. Last in the sentence is the prepositional phrase 'm sSmw'; 'sSmw' means "leader" and the preposition 'm' is used here in the sense of "as" someone/something. The prospective of 'wnn' is used here to allow what would be an adverbial predicate to appear in the protasis of a conditional sentence marked by 'jr' (sec. 21.7). In this case, the cognate clause is 'jw.k m sSmw' which means "you are a leader". Thus, 'jr wnn.k m sSm(w)' means "If you are a leader". Last in the protasis is the unmarked adverb clause 'Hr wD sxr(w) n aSAt', which has a pseud-overbal predicate using 'Hr'. The subject is not explicitly written as it is the same as in the clause it is modifying. 'wD' is the infinitive of the 2-lit. verb 'wD', "command". The object of the verb is 'sxrw n aSAt' in which 'sxrw' ("conduct") is followed by the indirect genitive 'n aSAt'. 'aSAt' means "multitude". Putting it all together, 'Hr wD sxr(w) n aSAt' means "(you) are commanding the conduct of a multitude". The apodosis of the sentence is 'HjHj n.k zp nb mnx'. 'HjHj' is the imperative of the 4-lit. verb 'HjHj' ("seek"). The object of the verb is the noun phrase 'zp nb mnx' where the noun 'zp' ("deed") is modified by the adjectives 'nb' ("every, each, any") and 'mnx' ("beneficial, worthwhile"). The prepositional phrase 'n.k' is a dative and means "for yourself" (here translated using the reflexive pronoun "yourself" since it refers to the same thing as the agent of the action); this dative appears before the object of the verb since it involves a pronoun. Putting the above together, the apodosis means "seek for yourself every worthwhile deed". 21.12 jr wnn.k m sSm(w) Hr wD sxrw n aSAt HjHj n.k zp nb mnx jr = if (introduces prospective in conditional sentence; S21.6 and S21.7) wnn = verb 2ae-gem = exist, be wnn.k = prospective + suffix pronoun(S21.7) = you will be/are to be m = m of predication = as sSm(w) = noun = leader, guide, pilot QUESTION: jr wnn.k m sSm(w) = if you are to be (as) a leader (Allen translates as: If you are a leader-- so I am not sure about this) Hr wD = verb 2-lit= command Hr wD = pseudoverbal construction (S.15.2) = will be commanding (to agree with the future tense of wnn above) sxrw = noun = plan, conduct n = preposition = of aSAt = noun = multitude Hr wD sxrw n aSAt = (who) will be commanding the conduct of a multitude HjHj = verb 4-lit = seek (I would have preferred the subjunctive you should seek S19.5.1, but I think for that it would have been HjHj.k, so I have gone for the imperative). HjHj = imperative = seek n.k preposition + suffix pronoun = for yourself zp = noun = time, occasion, event, deed nb = all, every mnx = adjective-verb 3-lit = functional, worthwhile, beneficent HjHj n.k zp nb mnx = seek for yourself every worthwhile deed jr wnn.k m sSm(w) Hr wD sxrw n aSAt HjHj n.k zp nb mnx = If you are to be a leader, who will be commanding the conduct of a multitude, seek out for yourself every worthwhile deed. 21.12 ORIENTATION: Right to left, Horizontal, Normal TRANSLITERATION: jr wnn.k m sSm Hr wD sxrw n aSAwt HjHj n.k zp nb mnx TRANSLATION: "If you are a leader, when giving orders to the multitude, seek for yourself every worthwhile moment." VOCABULARY: jr = "if" wnn = verb, 3gem = "be" k = suffix pronoun, 3ms sSmj = verb, c3inf = "lead" wD = noun,m = "decree" wD = verb, 2lit = "command" sxr = noun, m = "plan, method, advice, conduct" aSAt = noun, f = "multitude" HjHj = verb, 4lit = "seek" n = preposition zp = noun, m = "time, occasion, event, deed" mnx = adj. verb, 3lit = "functional, worthwhile, beneficient" GRAMMAR: jr = marks the protasis wnn.k = prospective active, used an alternative to the subjunctive in the protasis (21.6) m sSm = if this were an m + infinitive construction, I would have expected m sSmt. But the text shows sign A1, which is either a suffix pronoun (not likely, considering that the subject has already been seen in wnn.k) or a determinative (my choice), in which case sSm is a participle and the m is an m of acquired status. COMMENT: When I first went through the book I thought sSm was a noun, which force it would have it were actually a participle. I think a note from Allen would have been very useful here, since we haven't had participles yet. Hr wD = Hr + infinitive construction. sxrw n aSAwt = direct and indirect objects of wD HjHj = imperative or subjunctive with understood subject n.k = prepositional phrase, indirect object, reflexive zp nb = object of HjHj and modifying adjective zp nb mnx = zp mnx is a noun and a qualifying adjective. nb comes between them because it preceeds all other adjectives (6.3). GARDINER SIGNS: M17-D21-E34:N35-N35:V31-G17-S29-T31-G17-D54-A1-D2-Z1-V24-Z7:Y1-S29- Aa1:D21-Y1:Z2-N35-I1:X1*Z2-A1*B1:Z2-O4-O4-Z4:D54-N35:V31-O34:Q3*O50- V30-Y5:N35-Aa1-U22:Y1 M17-D21 j-r E34:N35-N35:V31 wn-complement-n-k G17 m S29-T31-G17-D54-A1 complement-sSm-complement- Det MOTION- Determinative MAN D2-Z1 Hr- Used as ideogr of signs meant to be read as ideograms rather than phonograms, for example: the preposition Hr "upon" V24-Z7:Y1 wD-complement (placed after a vertical sign)- Det CONCEPTS- S29-Aa1:D21-Y1:Z2 s-x-r- Det CONCEPTS- Det in PLURAL N35 n I1:X1*Z2-A1*B1:Z2 aSA-t- Det in PLURAL- Determinative MAN- Det. FEMALE- Det in PLURAL O4-O4-Z4:D54 h-h-j- Det MOTION N35-V31 n-k O34:Q3*O50 complement-complement-zp V30 nb Y5:N35-Aa1-U22:Y1 mn-complement-x- Det in mnH "functional"-Det CONCEPTS ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 21.11 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:17:32 -0500 21.11 read right to left zzp z(j) m xt mjnt, rdjw zpw.f r gs.f m aHaw When a man survives after dying, his deeds will be placed beside him in heaps. zzp zj when a man survives m xt after mjnt verb 4ae-inf. die rdjw verb anom. will be placed zpw noun deeds .f personal pronoun his r gs beside .f him m preposition 8.2.3 in aHaw noun heaps 21.11 zpp z(j) m xt mjnt, rdjw zpw.f r gs.f m aHaw words: zpp z(j) = man zpp z(j) = `when a man survives' = given by Allen m xt = `after' (prep) or `future' (noun) mjnt compound preposition, so `after dying' (compare example 14.11.4 m xt jt ? after returning) rdjw , rdj - `give, put , cause' ? could be prospective, prospective passive or passive zpw.f gs.f = his side aHaw literally: (when) a man survives after dying, his deeds will put/ will be put/are put to his side in heaps better: when a man survives after dying, his deeds are/will be put beside him in heaps ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 21.10 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:16:52 -0500 21.10 jr pH st, nn jrt jw, wnn.f jm mj nTr The main clause in this sentence is wnn.f jm mj nTr: "He will be like a god there." This appears to be a case of the prospective of the verb 'wnn' allowing a following prepositional phrase ('mj nTr': "like a god") to function like a prospective; that is, to express an action or condition that has not yet happened. (See Allen 21.7, first two paragraphs.) (Or, it could just be the prospective of the verb 'wnn' acting as a verb in its own right. I'm not sure.) Now there are two syntactical units preceding the main clause. pH (verb 2-lit): 'to reach'. Allen glosses this as "he who reaches". st: 3rd person neutral dependent pronoun. 'it', the object of the verb. pH st: 'He who reaches it (the afterlife)' nn jrt: this is the infinitive of the 3-weak verb jrj: 'to do'. It is negated by the particle 'nn'. See Allen 14.15: an infinitive after the negative particle 'nn' expresses an action whose existence is denied. Here it is an (unmarked) adverbial clause indicating how the action of 'reaching' something is carried out. jw (noun): 'evil' So if we ignore the introductory particle for the moment, we have: ...pH st, nn jrt jw, which can be translated as: '...he who reaches it, without doing evil'. In normal Egyptian word order, the subject usually follows the verb. However, this is a long subject, and to emphasize it, it is moved to the front of the sentence. See Allen 18.4; he describes this syntactical device as topicalization. The fronted subject is often introduced by the particle 'jr', which I believe is what we're seeing here. "As for he who reaches it, without doing evil, he will be like a god there." 21.10 read right to left jr pH st nn jrt jw wnn.f jm mj nTr As for he who reaches it without doing wrong, he will be like a god there. jr at the beginning of a sentence as for pH he who reaches st dependent pronoun it nn particle 16.6.8 without jrt 3ae-inf. base+t doing jw noun wrong wnn 2ae-inf will be .f personal pronoun he jm mj preposition 8.2.4 like nTr noun god 21.10 jr pH st nn jrt jw wnn.f jm mj nTr "When he who reaches it doesn't not make an error, it will be for him there (the afterlife) like a god." jr - introduces a contingent clause pH - verbal construction glossed as "he who reaches" st - 3N dependent pronoun "it" object of pH "If/when he who reaches it" nn - negative particle jrt - infinitive of jrj "to do, make" jw - noun "complaint, error" object of jrt "without making an error" - dependent clause modifying the previous one jw - particle. This marks truth from the speaker's point of view wnn.f - prospective of the 2ae-gem. verb wnn "be, exist" with 3MS suffix pronoun as subject. jm - prepositional adverb "there, therein" mj - preposition "like" nTr - noun "a god" object of mj, adverbial prepositional phrase "He will be there like a god." - result clause "When he who reaches it without making an error (is there), he will be there like a god." Question: how to distinguish prospective wnn.k "he will be" from passive wn n.k "it will be for him?" which is how I initially translated it. 21.10 ALLEN: pH = "He who reaches". st and jm refer to the next life. ORIENTATION: Right to left, Horizontal, Normal TRANSLITERATION: TRANSLATION: "As for he who reaches it, without having done evil, he shall be in it like a god." VOCABULARY: jr = preposition = r jw = noun, m = "complaint, error, wrong" wnn = verb, 3gem = "be" GRAMMAR: jr = r jr pH st = jr refers to pH, which I think, is a participle, st is the object of the verbal force of the participle. nn jrt jw = a negated infinitive in narration (14.15 and 14.14.2) "without doing evil" or ? nn jr.t(w) jw = negated passive subjunctive with tw (19.11 and 19.4) of desireable outcome (19.1) "let no harm be done". I prefer the infinitive choice. wnn.f = prospective active + suffix pronoun as subject. jm = adverbial preposition mj nTr = prepositional phrase GARDINER SIGNS: M17-D21:F22-S29-X1-D35:N35-D4:X1-E9-Z7-G37:Z2-E34:N35-N35:I9-M17-G17- W19-M17-R8-G7 M17-D21 j-r F22 pH S29-X1 s-t D35:N35 nn-complement D4:X1 jr-t E9- Z7-G37:Z2 jw-complement-Det BAD- used with words with false plurals E34:N35-N35:I9 wn-complement-n-f M17-G17 j-m W19-M17 mj-complement R8-G7 nTr-Det DIVINE ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 18:49:52 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL A new etymology of Djehuty? Hi; As a postscript, since wild speculation and pure coincidence sometimes provide clues to an investigation, I was thinking, "What two things does an alchemist need most in order to ply his grand experiment?" DHty--metallic lead, and DHwty, Hermes: patron of alchemy. Also, if DHwty is a word with an Egyptian etymology, it might serve to ask what meaning it had to the Egyptians, so I thought that, being an archetypal blend of Hw (creative impulse) and siA (pattern recognition), DHwty actually means "the god whose genius is rooted in good conscience". Then perhaps we can work backward, etymologically, if being the Heart and Tongue of Ra is central to the identity of the god. But, there could be another dimension, yet. When asked about Dr. House, Hugh Laurie said, "If I could reduce the character to a formula, I wouldn't." If DHwty was an obscure word to the Egyptians, this may have seemed very suitable for "The Inscrutable One". Personally, I have suspected a connected with the word sDH in its meaning of "that part of the thigh not covered by the kilt". To me, it suggests that DHwty in his role as a god of mysterious insights might preside over a psychologically demilitarized zone between decency and intimacy and literally mean, "The Dandler", or that older cousin who spoils you in order to nurture an interest in letters. If it also means "The Parliamentarian Whip", its converse connotation might be just as appropriate as a complementary opposite, as we find in many a mystery. Bob ==============================================================================