From: "George Fowler" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Question about DHwty Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 11:19:18 -0300 Dear List Members: There was a query about the reason for the two strokes in DHwty on the GlypStudy list. I remember my professor saying (many many years ago) that DHwty was actually the form of an imperfective participle with the meaning "the one who traverses". Checking my limited resources I can find no confirmation for this - no verb with the appropriate root with that meaning. Would anyone on the list be able to provide further information or confirmation on this? Thank you in advance, George Fowler ============================================================================== From: "gilbert" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL James Hoch's drill book Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 16:10:32 +0800 In the very beginning of AEL starting up (in week 1 or 2, see archives), Prof. James Hoch contributed considerably to the discussions about what to do and what direction AEL should take. James Hoch recognized the need not only to have exercises like the ones you can find in his book, in Allen's, Gardiner's or others, he also recognized the need for more practice and drills to master the basic principles of the language. He said (in 1998) that he gave abundant material to his students to practice (on top of the exercises in his book) and was planning to publish that material. Has that ever happened=3F Does anyone know if he actually did publish that practice and drill material, and if so where one can purchase it=3F If not, does anyone have James Hoch's current e-mail address, as the one he gave back then doesn't seem to reach him (any more). I'm putting this question out , as I want to reach as many people as possible who could be a link to me finding those extra exercises (which I need to consolidate my foundation and grasp on AE, having reached lesson 8 in Allen=92s book). Gilbert ============================================================================== From: "tkelly" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL James Hoch's drill book Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 15:21:26 -0700 Gilbert From the Directory of North American Egyptologist. HOCH, James Dept. of Near & Middle Eastern Civilizations, 4 Bancroft Ave./University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, M5S 1A1, Canada Voice: 416-978-2391 Fax: 416-971-2362 E-Mail: james_hoch@campuslife.utoronto.ca http://www.utoronto.ca/gsunion/hoch/ Home: 223 Glebeholme Blvd., Toronto, Ontario, M4J 1S8, Canada Tom Kelly ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL re Question about DHwty Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 10:25:40 +0200 Dear George, >I remember my professor saying (many many years ago) that DHwty was actually the form of an imperfective participle with the meaning "the one who traverses". Checking my limited resources I can find no confirmation for this - no verb with the appropriate root with that meaning. Would anyone on the list be able to provide further information or confirmation on this? **The most agreed upon opinion - still very speculative, of course - is that it is a nisbe, meaning "the one of *DHw.t". Alas, no place by that name is known to exist... Boylan does mention some old (wrong) explanations, but your Prof's is not among them. And I could not think of a relevant verb. Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "Daniel Hunt" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL re Question about DHwty Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 06:39:32 -0600 Could George be thinking of the moon god Khonsu, whose name does appear to mean "the Traveler"? Daniel ============================================================================== From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Loftur_Altice_=DEorsteinsson?= To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL re Question about DHwty Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:01:20 -0000 Dear George. I suggest, that the name DHwty means "offering/offered bread loaf". Accordingly, original form was: wDHw-ty (offering - bread loaf). The reason for the name is the form of the loaf, which resembles half moon. Bread is found written: X1:X2-X4:Z2 and Thoth: X1:X2-DHwty. These forms can be found in Faulkner 2002:292. I hope to receive some response to my suggestion. Regards - Loftur Altice Thorsteinsson ============================================================================== From: "Daniel Hunt" To: Subject: AEL DHwt.y and da'ath? Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 07:28:34 -0600 Could there be a connection (perhaps as some early cognate or borrowing?) between the name DHwt.y and Hebrew da'ath (dah'-ath), "knowledge, perception, skill, discernment, understanding, wisdom"? Daniel Hunt ============================================================================== From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Loftur_Altice_=DEorsteinsson?= To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Question about DHwty Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:35:07 -0000 Dear List members. Besides Faulkner, I have Shennum and Hannig. I have certainly not memorized these books. You are correct George, that the god shown in Faulkner is A40 (PtH) and not C3 (DHwty). You notice, that A40 is always used as determinant for Thoth, on page 324 in Faulkner. I do not believe that this matters. People recognize Thoth, but perhaps someone can explain this, if this correspondence is allowed on line. It seems clear that Thoth was called "the loaf" ! I agree, that we are also talking about "a time of the month", since half moon is the 15th of a month. Also it can hardly be a coincidence that the 15th nome was dedicated to Thoth and the nomes were 30, like the days of the Egyptian month. We are touching several important things. I am hoping for an online discussion about this. Regards - Loftur <><><><><> Dear Loftur: Wow! What detective work. How did you ever find that reference in Faulkner? Have you got it all memorized? (Unlike me) I'm not enough of an authority to question your grammatical reasoning but I now wonder if the rationale for the three specific signs is maybe not more straightforward. X1:X2 A40 (not G26 for Thoth) = "White bread (Gardiner 598) of the God" and meaning, as you quite properly point out, the shape (and colour) of the quarter Moon. In other words a time of the month? Maybe my imagination is getting the better of me. It would be nice to know the contexts in which this form is used. Budge ( 817) cites as reference, a book by Maspero but that doesn't help me much. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. Best regards, George <><><><><> Dear George. I suggest, that the name DHwty means "offering/offered bread loaf". Accordingly, original form was: wDHw-ty (offering - bread loaf). The reason for the name is the form of the loaf, which resembles half moon. Bread is found written: X1:X2-X4:Z2 and Thoth: X1:X2-DHwty. These forms can be found in Faulkner 2002:292. I hope to receive some response to my suggestion. Regards - Loftur Altice Thorsteinsson <><><><><> ============================================================================== From: "George Fowler" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Question about DHwty Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 09:17:45 -0300 Dear Loftur & List members: While, as you say, Falkner always shows Thoth with the A40 determinative, the references to Thoth in the Pyramid Texts (at least the ones I was able to check - about 1/2 of the references listed by Faulkner) never use it. It's always G26 or rather R7 G26. Not sure if this actually means anything. I apoligize for not replying on line originally but I wasn't sure if the astronomical speculation to which I referred would be an acceptable subject for the list. I'm new to this business. Best regards, George ============================================================================== From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Loftur_Altice_=DEorsteinsson?= To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Fw: AEL Question about DHwty Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 08:50:58 -0000 Dear List members. According to Budge, in The Gods of the Egyptians, the 15th Finger-Breadth of the Royal Cubit was dedicated to Thoth (Budge 1969:291). The Royal Cubit had 28 fingers, but the Common Cubit 24. I wish to correct my statement, that the Egyptian nomes were 30 in number. Their number was different at different times. Anyway, Thoth is firmly connected to the 15th and it is very likely that this is a correspondence to the half moon and the bread loaf name of Thoth. Regards - Loftur ============================================================================== From: Tokapu@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 20:40:21 EDT Subject: Re: Fw: AEL Question about DHwty To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk In a message dated 5/25/2007 2:10:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hlutverk@simnet.is writes: Thoth is firmly connected to the 15th and it is very likely that this is a correspondence to the half moon The lunar references to Thoth relate to his role in the round of the calendar. Thoth was known as the creator of the Calendar system, as well as having won the sacred Five Yearly Days from the Moon in order to let Nut give birth to the five children of Geb. Thoth is referred to as "the counter" in several coffin texts, as well as later texts. The lunar calendar is paleolithic, predating the solar calendar. Thoth is also considered the one who reconciled the mathematical rounds of the lunar, stellar and solar calendars, creating the calendar system used during the entire length of the nation's existence, as well as being the forerunner of our modern calendar, via Julius and Augustus Caesar. Ramona Wheeler author of "Walk Like An Egyptian: A Modern Guide To The Religion And Philosophy Of Ancient Egypt" and "My Daily Horus Scope" available online from Amazon.com and barnesandnoble.com ==============================================================================