From: Tokapu@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:05:28 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL : Ankh symbol Friends, The image of the ankh used as a penis sheath may or may not be an absolute definition of the term. Which came first, the sheath, or the meaning of the symbol that made it an image one would incorporate into such a sheath? Remember, the Egyptians combined images as a natural gesture. Tokapu ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:28:57 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni Detailed Orthography Dear Mr. van Haarst, > Thank you very much for the extensive covering of the titles of Weni. It is a > great help. I am glad that it has been useful to someone. > I have two questions concerning Weni. > Can you give tell me more about the word Sma.w. I can not find any > reference in the dictionary. Remember that {S} stands for the /sh/ and not the other /s/'s. Faulkner's dictionary has a typo on page 266. His entry has Sm3w, when it should read Sm`w. > Secondly i have a general question about the offerings that took place in the > chapel of a deceased. The Htp-di-nsw prayer was very often present carved on > the stela next to or interwoven with the autobiography. Was it always the > purpose of this prayer to be read aloud by the visitors ? I thought that the > being there of this prayer was enough, because it was thought to perform its > duty by magic. > On the other hand there are also stelae, which have a so called ' Appeal to the > living ' on them. There the visitor is asked by the deceased to actually recite > the Htp-di-nsw prayer. > A nice example is the stela of Sebekhotep. ( in H. Brunner : Hieroglyphische > Chrestomathie, plate 11 ) . Well, the invocation offering formulae might have performed some functions with no one reading them out loud since they are also often written on coffins which were burried in sealed chambers. On the other hand, this could be for the time period between the person's placement in the coffin and the interment itself. You have already noted the appeals to the living, which give us much of what we know about the desire to have living people prnounce the formulae alloud. Often these appeals make much to do about how it does not cost the reader anything to say the words, nothing out of their pockets, no real offerings need be brought so long as they will read it. The deceased seems to be concerned enough that it get pronounced that we must infer that not pronouncing it was not effective enough. I forgot to mention in response to another post of yours, it was you, was it not(?), that while Pepi can be transliterated pjpj (as opposed to ppjj) on the basis of the fact that it contains two {j}'s, and its Greek pronunciation eventually became Phiops (possibly indicating an ancient pronunciation of *payApi), Teti is transliterated with only one {j} since this is all that was written (ttj), although one wonders by analogy with the other name if ttj might not represent **tjt which is a known word with the meaning of "divine image". However, the Greek name gives us Othoes, which might even indicate a reconstruction like **jtt *'atAti(?). Furthermore, I suspected that there might have been some confusion on both of our parts concerning the accidental use of Teti when you intended Pepi. Thanks for clearing that up. Dear Mr. Goelet, Thank you for your thoughts on the smr w`.t.j title. I agree with your reasoning. I really appreciate yours and Mr. Kadish's enlightening contributions, as I am sure, everyone else does as well. Be well! Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Dictionaries Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:14:02 -0000 Are there any dictionaries for "Old Egyptian" ? There seems to be quite a few words in the Weni text that I cannot find in Faulkner, where do you find them ? Thanks in advance Mark V ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:18:26 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Francesca Subject: AEL translation I have a request regarding translation of Egyptian names. The name Neferhotep appears in many documents. But how is it translated exactly ? If 'nefer' means beauty and 'hotep' peace, aren't there many possible translations ? How do egyptologists go about translating this name ? "Beauty is peace", "Beautiful is peace" ? confused Francesca ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:22:54 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Re: AEL translation At 04:18 PM 2/9/98 +0100, Francesca wrote: >I have a request regarding translation of Egyptian names. >The name Neferhotep appears in many documents. But how is it translated >exactly ? >If 'nefer' means beauty and 'hotep' peace, aren't there many possible >translations ? How do egyptologists go about translating this name ? >"Beauty is peace", "Beautiful is peace" ? > >confused >Francesca It can further mean, "Beauty is at peace", if you consider it similar to the name of an OK queen, Neith-hotep, "Neith is at peace", possibly the wife of the First Dynasty king, Aha, or the name "Amenhotep", "Amen is at peace". An alternate translation can be "content, satisified" instead of "at peace". So, your name, Neferthotep, can also mean "beauty is content/satisfied", "contented beauty", or perhaps (and someone like Geoff Graham can confirm this, likely): "Beautiful is contentment". Best -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg Member, American Research Center in Egypt International Association of Egyptologists University of Alabama at Birmingham Special Studies http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/1692/index.html ============================================================================== From: Aayko To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Was-scepter (AW: AEL : Ankh symbol) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:41:04 +-100 Greg Reeder wrote: >The ankh sign may have a connection to the penis sheath worn by the king during the Heb Sed ritual. See for instance Florence D. Friedman "The Underground Relief Panels of King Djoser" JARCE Vol. XXXII 1995, Fig.17 (Northern Panel Under South Tomb) where the sheath looks very much like an ankh. And p. 26 note 151 that notes work by John Baines, "Ankh-sign, Belt and Penis Sheath," SAK 3 (1975), 1-24. ***Thank you dear Greg and others for this interesting thread! A penis sheath indeed would be a more logical origin for the mightly LIFE symbol than a sandal! Although so would Ms Evans reference (spine). I suppose discussing hieroglyphs as such is a valid topic for AEL? I was wondering about the was-scepter, as I just saw a large depiction of it, it being yellow with black spots. I suppose it's of panther skin, which has a religious connotation somehow (see priests' clothing and clothing of heir to the throne in a certain ritual). But what does this odd divine scepter exactly depict? S41 (with spiral shaft) is an older form than S40, I've read, but that does not help me much. The 'head' is often said to be a head of the Seth animal. Is there an universal agreement upon that? This 'head' seems to varry slightly with the god carrying it, though, and never really resembles a stylized animal's head, not even that of the odd Seth animal. Also: was Seth associated with a spotted animal/cat..? And what about the crescent/fork at the base..? kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:47:16 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni P2 L3-L8 Dear Mr. van Haaarst, Thank you for all your dedication to this translation. I am sorry I did not answer you earlier but I accidentally deleted the response I was composing. Because I have little time at the moment, I will need to be rather brief in what follows. Perhaps we could slow down just a little bit in order to allow more people to digest what we are doing, as well as allowing people with many other commitments to take full part in this without missing major chunks. > L3 : rDi wi Hm=f m zAb r nxn > His majesty appointed me Judge, ' Mouth of Hierakonpolis ' > > This zAb r nxn is determined by a sitting man , so i think that the title zAb > (judge) is meant and r nxn is an apposition : Mouth of Hierakonpolis. > Another possiblity is to read zAb iry nxn : judge over Hierakonpolis. rdj wj Hm=f m z3b jr.j nxn the weak consonants in the title jr.j nxn were not all written. Now attempt a translation again. > L4 : ib=f mH(.w) im(=i) r bAk=f nb > because his heart was more filled with me than with any other of his > servants. > > The stative is used here to express the fact that his majesty's heart was and > still is full of Weni. That is the perfective aspect of the stative : the > action is completed, but the result of the action continues. Correct. > L5 : sDm(=i) xt wa.k(wi) Hna tAyty zAb TAty m sStA nb > I listened to (legal ? ) matters, being alone with the Chief-judge (?), > the vizier, concerning every secret sDm=j jx.t w`.kj Hn` t3y.t.y z3b m sSt3 nb Basically correct. > L6 : [ x.t nb.t] Xnm.t m rn n nsw.t n ipA.t nsw.t n Hw.t-wr.t 6 > and [every case] connected with the name of the king, with the royal > harem and the 6 great houses. jx.t nb.t Xnm.t m rn n.j n jp3.t-n.j-sw.t n Hw.t-wr.t srs.t Basically correct. > L7 : n mH ib n Hm=f im(=i) r sr=f nb > because the heart of his majesty was more filled with me than with any > other courtier yes. > L8 : r saH=f nb r bAk=f nb > official or servant of his. yes. Sorry I had not enough time to go into any detail. Perhaps we can discuss all of this some more. Let's not go too quickly, please. ;-P Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:33:41 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL translation Dear Francesca, > I have a request regarding translation of Egyptian names. > The name Neferhotep appears in many documents. But how is it translated > exactly ? > If 'nefer' means beauty and 'hotep' peace, aren't there many possible > translations ? How do egyptologists go about translating this name ? > "Beauty is peace", "Beautiful is peace" ? I would suggest, since the word is nfr and not nfr.w that we are dealing with a nominalized adjective. ...probably "one beautiful/perfect of rest/peace". Yours, Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:00:46 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Was-scepter (AW: AEL : Ankh symbol) Dear Mrs. Eyma and Reeder, Re: was-scpeter: At UC Berkeley's ARCE conference several years ago, a speaker suggested that this scepter was actually a dried bull's penis, such as is used as a whip in Italy at the pallo events of Tuscany. He even brought one in to demonstrate how the musculature at the base was like the forked bottom of the staff, and the hooked feature, reinterpreted as an animal head was, much like the glans of the animal. This could make some sense in a connection with Seth, for, as you will remember, the membrum virilis of Seth while in the form of a raging bull was removed by Horus in vengeance for the murder of his father Osiris, along with his testicles and his right foreleg. The phallus of Seth would also be considered to have great potency, as one might imagine, judging from his mythological character. Now, all of this is mere speculation and not necessarily well supported in Egyptian sources, so I would urge caution in adopting it as a premise. Moreover, the w3s scepter seems to have had an important relationship with the Bukhkis Bull of Montu of Armant during the New Kingdom, so further investigation might well be fruitful in that direction. I am sorry I cannot presently go search out the reference to this talk at UC Berkeley, but if anyone considers this to be a subject they would like to research in the future, at least one could find an old program from the conference, and then contact the person who concocted the idea. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: USHorus@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:00:54 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL translation Francesca wrote, >I have a request regarding translation of Egyptian names. The name Neferhotep appears in many documents. But how is it translated exactly? If 'nefer' means beauty and 'hotep' peace, aren't there many possible translations? How do Egyptologists go about translating this name? "Beauty is peace", "Beautiful is peace"? >> As an ancient (age-wise) Egyptian myself, I would translate Neferhotep as the Gentle/Calm/Elegant/Serene Beauty, someone like Audrey Hepburn. The meaning of the word 'peace', as the opposite of 'War' doesn't fit here. Even though I have command of both English and Arabic, I cannot translate most of the words in Egyptian love songs. Egyptians (ancient and modern) are very affectionate. To add to your and others' confusion :-), Neferhotep, Meri-, etc. are not names, but epithets. Epithets were, and still are, being used regularly before names of people, neteroo (gods/goddesses), etc. It would be like calling my wife, dear (name). Moustafa Gadalla http://members.aol.com/ushorus ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 20:45:08 -0500 From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List CC: sfryer@prcn.org Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Adverbial Sentences - Review Hi stephen, Here is my translation of the remaining sentences in the excersises.Thanks again! 5. jw Xrw H`w m Xrt-nTr The voice of joy is in the necropolis. 6. jw wdp.w nbw Hr jrt=f Every servant has his duty. 7. jw Xnw m sgr jbw m gmj The palace is silent when hearts are mourning. 8.jw=j r Smt I am walking. 9. jw mS` pn n nsw Hr m33 This army of the king is watching. 10. jw=f r jTj.t ` t3wj He takes possession of the southern lands. 11. jw Hm.wt `S3 Hr qdj=f Many craftsmen were involved in it's building. 12. jw=f Hr wnm t 500 He eats five hundred loaves of bread. 13. jw=j r wHm Hb.w=k I will continue to hold your festivals. Phew! The absence of a vocabulary made this much more challenging! Your encouragement was much appreciated.On to Weni... ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 21:19:16 -0500 From: "Oscar H. Blayton" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni Detailed Orthography Dear Geoff, I have just finished your "AEL Weni Detailed Orthography", it is a quarter past nine (p.m.), and I am still in the office at my computer. I have found this exercise extremely helpful, and it has given a great deal to think about and review. Your efforts in this regard are greatly appreciated. I know that my heartfelt thanks are little reward for all of your work; but I offer it anyway. With great appreciation, I remain Yours truly, Oscar Blayton ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:52:00 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Hieroglyph question Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned to whom replies should be addressed. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "Steve Neeley" To: Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:02:13 -0700 >>Two questions for a good samaritan Egyptian Hieroglyph expert out there: (1) Carol Andrews in her book 'Amulets of Ancient Egypt' notes that many New Kingdom coffin inscriptions and some New Kingdom tomb wall texts contain the cry: 'May Re live and the Turtle die!' Can anyone tell me how to write that with hieroglyphs? (2) Also, I need to know the ancient Egyptian term for 'spell' as in magic spell. Does anyone know the term and how to write it in hieroglyphs? Although these questions seem strange they are important for a project I'm working on and I appreciate any help you can give. Thanks for any help you can give, Steve ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:22:07 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni Detailed Orthography Dear, Mr. Balyton, On the contrary, even the thanks of one interested individual means a lot to me. I only make such postings in order to help people, and if I know that I am helping even one person, I am truly content that my efforts are not wasted. I wish I could do more of what I did in these beginning posts regarding Weni, however, the pace of translation is actually going faster than what is possible for me to keep up with in such great detail. Moreover, I have too many academic responsibilities to always spend so much time writing on the internet. I do use the internet as a convenient break from other activities which I am required to perform, and my love of the Egyptian language really makes this a pleasure for me. Perhaps, from time to time, I will be able to do detailed analyses like those first ones at different locations in the text. I hope that those who are already capable of translation will be able to move along at their pace, and that those who need fundamental background in the hieroglyphic system and in grammar will also be able to reap some benefits too at another slower pace. Maybe there ought to be two separate threads taking place on the same text: one for beginners and another for people at an intermediate stage. In some respects I think it is more useful and valuable to provide some basic starting point for beginners, since those at the intermediate stage already have a certain number of resources at their disposal. On the other hand, catering only to beginners will be stifling and frustrating to those who are ready to move faster on a given text. I only wish that there were other experts (if I may refer to myself as such, since I am but a graduate student in pre-exam stage) who might take a more active role, so that more than one level of discourse on the Weni text could be pursued simultaneously. I do understand how time consuming such activity can become, and thoroughly understand the reasons why not many professionals have time to coach translations in this format. I probably ought not to devote as much time as I do to this, so that I can focus in on my own career, but I do have a strong desire toteach, and this forum provides a welcome opportunity for me to try and learn the best ways to go about this interest of mine. Thank you for you kind note. Be well. Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Anpwhotep" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 12:55:49 -0700 Subject: Re: AEL translation On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:18:26 +0100, Francesca wrote: >I have a request regarding translation of Egyptian names. >The name Neferhotep appears in many documents. But how is it translated >exactly ? >If 'nefer' means beauty and 'hotep' peace, aren't there many possible >translations ? How do egyptologists go about translating this name ? >"Beauty is peace", "Beautiful is peace" ? > I've seen 'Htp' variously translated as 'gift of', 'sacred to', 'beloved of', 'is satisfied', and 'is pleased'. So, neferhotep could, depending on context, mean 'gift of beauty', 'sacred to beauty', 'beloved of beauty', 'beauty is satisfied', or 'beauty is pleased'. Also, in the Coffin Texts, both components are used as Divine Names, and thus could be a whole other ball of wax. inp.w-Htp.w Hm nTrw (Yes, I do sign my name E15:R4, and no, it hasn't improved my handwriting any. ;) ) ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:03:00 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Hieroglyph question Dear Steve, > (1) Carol Andrews in her book 'Amulets of Ancient Egypt' > notes that many New Kingdom coffin inscriptions and some > New Kingdom tomb wall texts contain the cry: > > 'May Re live and the Turtle die!' `nx r` mwt St {sandle-strap}{water waves}{shaded circle}{mouth}{arm}{sun disk}{stroke}{owl}{t-loaf}{fallen person with blood pouring from head}{pool}{t-loaf}{tortoise} > Can anyone tell me how to write that with hieroglyphs? > > (2) Also, I need to know the ancient Egyptian term for 'spell' > as in magic spell. Does anyone know the term and how > to write it in hieroglyphs? Snj.t {pool}{water wave}{t-loaf}{man with hand to mouth} Yours Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: Hans van Haarst To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:37:05 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Dictionaries > From: Mark Vygus > To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > Subject: AEL Dictionaries > Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:14:02 -0000 > Reply-to: Ancient Egyptian Language List > Are there any dictionaries for "Old Egyptian" ? > There seems to be quite a few words in the Weni text that I cannot find in > Faulkner, where do you find them ? > > Thanks in advance > > > Mark V Hello Mark, The best dictionary, which covers Old , Middle and Late Egyptian is the one by Erman and Grapow : Woerterbuch der Aegyptischen Sprache. It consists of 5 volumes dictionary + 6 volumes ' Belegstellen ' Kind regards, Hans van Haarst emailadress : hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== From: "maria and les " To: Subject: AEL Names of Dogs? Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:42:28 -0000 Firstly, I will introduce myself breifly, I am Maria Goodman from a little village in Cambs. In the U.K. I am a total beginner as far as hieroglyphs are concerned but have been fascinated by the Ancient Egyptians and the language for years. Is their anyone out there who can tell me if their is a hieroglyph that describes dogs? I have breeds of dog who are depicted on many Ancient Egyptian freizes etc. No luck finding a hieroglyphic description. Also how difficult would it be to translate names of dogs into hieroglyphics? I hope I am not being to vague Thanks in Advance Maria Goodman maria@anubis.abel.co.uk ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:20:33 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL translation Dear Mr.(?) jnpw-m-Htp.w ;-P > I've seen 'Htp' variously translated as 'gift of', 'sacred to', > 'beloved of', 'is satisfied', and 'is pleased'. So, neferhotep could, > depending on context, mean 'gift of beauty', 'sacred to beauty', > 'beloved of beauty', 'beauty is satisfied', or 'beauty is pleased'. Nice of you to bring this up, because it does take some explanation. The root verb in question is Htp "rest". This verb has many different connotations in Egyptian, such as "set" of the sun, moon, or stars; "be at peace" or even "be happy" of sentient beings; it even serves as a euphamism for "die". It is from its meaning of "rest" that the English translation of "peace" sometimes becomes appropriate. There is also the related causative form s-Htp "appease", and because of this connotation, various related nouns such as "offering", which is afterall really an "appeasement" for spirits and gods, have developed, and can be translated as "gift", although in Egyptian itself, there was no real distinction. We were looking at the name nfr-Htp which could mean various different things, as it has been pointed out. Your name, jnpw-Htp, originally perhaps jpw-Htp.j and later jnpw-Htp.w would mean "Anubis is at rest/contented/happy", as you must already know. On an analogy with this, one might see nfr-Htp (assuming the non-writing of a final weak consonant /j/ or /w/) might mean "the beautiful/perfect one is at peace/rest/is content/happy". I have already suggested another possibility which was "beautiful/perfect one of rest/peace/contentedness." This might even be taken further as "beatific of offerings", but it is hard to saywhether such a contortion is warranted or not. Perhaps there are other possibilities as well. Names often prove to be the most difficult words to translate. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:56:13 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL translation I think Nefer-Hotep might be some epithet (There is a Khonsu NeferHotep), a little like xwfw is an abreviation for Xnwm-xw=f-wi and ms an abreviation for (some god)-ms=w It would be something like X nfr=w Htp=w (some god) has become perfect and satisfied/at peace regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== From: Paola Tesoriere To: "'AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk'" Subject: AEL Greetings from South America Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:54:56 -0300 Hello there! My name is Paola and I am from Buenos Aires, Argentina (South America). = I've just signed up to your list and although I still don't have any = significant contribution on the Ancient Egyptian Language to share with = you, I though it was rude to listen to your conversations without = introducing myself. I hope I will be making these contributions soon. = I've written to Mr Graham asking him to let me know what is it exactly = that you are discussing but in case he is too busy (he mentioned being = so somewhere :-) ) I'd appreciate if somebody out there would help as = well. Looking forward to enjoying this list, Yours truly, Paola. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:11:31 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Francesca Subject: AEL again translation I would like to thank all persons who have sent me a response regarding the translation of Neferhotep (nfr-Htp). This will help me with my future hieroglyphic studies and translations. I do have another question: I have just received a book written in Italian and translated in English as well titled "The face of Osiris -- painted funerary shrouds of Roman Egypt". The Italian translation of Osiris is not -- as I have usually seen it written -- Osiride, but rather Osiri. I was wondering if anyone could help me with understanding why there are two possibilities of name. I believe that in English, the names of Osiris, Isis and Horus remain unchanged. Why would the Italians use two names ? Can anybody help me out ? confused (still) Francesca Jourdan ============================================================================== From: "Anpwhotep" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 13:19:00 -0700 Subject: Re: AEL translation -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:20:33 -0500 (EST), Graham wrote: >Dear Mr.(?) jnpw-m-Htp.w ;-P Or, as most people call me, Bill. :) >> I've seen 'Htp' variously translated as 'gift of', 'sacred to', >> 'beloved of', 'is satisfied', and 'is pleased'. So, neferhotep could, >> depending on context, mean 'gift of beauty', 'sacred to beauty', >> 'beloved of beauty', 'beauty is satisfied', or 'beauty is pleased'. > >Nice of you to bring this up, because it does take some explanation. The >root verb in question is Htp "rest". This verb has many different >connotations in Egyptian, such as "set" of the sun, moon, or stars; "be at >peace" or even "be happy" of sentient beings; it even serves as a >euphamism for "die". It is from its meaning of "rest" that the English >translation of "peace" sometimes becomes appropriate. That's one I haven't run across yet. Of course, I have a lot to learn yet. :) I'm so used to using 'going West' as a general term covering death that I hadn't even thought of the connotations of 'rest'. >There is also the related causative form s-Htp "appease", and because of >this connotation, various related nouns such as "offering", which is >afterall really an "appeasement" for spirits and gods, have developed, and >can be translated as "gift", although in Egyptian itself, there was no >real distinction. That's a good point, as you're just as likely to want to appease your friends and neighbors as you are to want to offer them rest. ;) >We were looking at the name nfr-Htp which could mean various different >things, as it has been pointed out. Your name, jnpw-Htp, originally >perhaps jpw-Htp.j and later jnpw-Htp.w would mean "Anubis is at >rest/contented/happy", as you must already know. On an analogy with this, >one might see nfr-Htp (assuming the non-writing of a final weak consonant >/j/ or /w/) might mean "the beautiful/perfect one is at peace/rest/is >content/happy". I have already suggested another possibility which was >"beautiful/perfect one of rest/peace/contentedness." This might even be >taken further as "beatific of offerings", but it is hard to saywhether >such a contortion is warranted or not. Perhaps there are other >possibilities as well. Names often prove to be the most difficult words >to translate. That's for sure. So many possibilities, and of course, with some names, the meaning is likely to be obscure simply because it's impossible to know what the person giving the name was thinking, unless they say why they did it. With others (such as, for instance, meri-Sw), there are limited possibilities, and so are easier to translate. Then again, I'll freely admit that I make no more effort to translate an Egyptian name than I do any other. As long as I have an idea of the constellation of meaning the name falls into, I'm comfortable with it. Yes, this is probably lazy, but I figure nfr-Htp is easily as good a name as Anastasia.. (And one I'd probably be more likely to give someone, given my preferences.) inp.w-Htp.w -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later. iQEVAwUBNOIHpdDXhzqsqjxxAQFVwwgAiSirNavIh7+VFndbu0bMCtPKfOG7ZO7Q UX0pex1SmmV82zs/HP5n8pEMmc+8MIZPemCRmYnzZHH2+GvaKZvXTvVpYJDw6GLS 4WDACYb+7EvjOvkPswSC0DkhywMtvMYkRBtcjsaWWj6CCmbBrCtoD4YimXH0uRHe s/s3ZePwFOYv2ag7vSnBuPPhRq7eAlRUtIjnDlsm4ylP4GScAVbxnvkDkQ53PhN8 u6SMcnWIQjebC1bNxdYlh6WRQpwxA66llMOXYfj49HZ4xMYYzct7sK+GEBUZKz9f 6bfnl0X55eaH+saa2koEo0HEjfLxv42SMrarumnoz+raO8gJ+46oyw== =jaqF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:37:32 -0800 From: Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Greetings from South America Paola Tesoriere wrote: > > Hello there! > My name is Paola and I am from Buenos Aires, Argentina (South America). I've just signed up to your list and although I still don't have any significant contribution on the Ancient Egyptian Language to share with you, I though it was rude to listen to your conversations without introducing myself. I hope I will be making these contributions soon. I've written to Mr Graham asking him to let me know what is it exactly that you are discussing but in case he is too busy (he mentioned being so somewh > Looking forward to enjoying this list, > Yours truly, > Paola. Welcome to the list, Paola. I am glad to meet somebody from Argentina interested in Ancient Egypt(ian language). Thanks for your E-mail introducing yourself. I myself live in Belgium (Europe). Having finished a licentiate in Classics (Greek and Latin) and one in Egyptology, I am now (trying to) complete my doctorate (+/- PhD) on Saite (26th dynasty) Pyramid Texts. Are you a student in Egyptology? How did you get to know this list? Yours, Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues udjat@skynet.be Udjat, Eye in the Sky ============================================================================== From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:18:11 -0500 To: owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Cc: nordpete@webtv.net Subject: AEL New kid on block Okay, enter one gregarious person, with an avid desire to learn heirogliphs. Have been studing on-line primer on Guardian Net. Will listen most of the time, however, please be gentle with this beginner. I apologize ahead of time for my Naivete. Great to hear some of you already, just joined on the 10th of Feb. Will copy advanced info as I know this will be important later. Thanks ahead of time for your patience Barbara Petersen Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA B.Pete. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:43:30 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Names of Dogs? Dear Ms. Goodman, > Is their anyone out there who can tell me if their is a hieroglyph that > describes dogs? Tzm "dog", also later jw and jwjw "dog" There is a dog determinative, but these words are spelled out phonetically, most of the time. > I have breeds of dog who are depicted on many Ancient Egyptian freizes etc. > No luck finding a hieroglyphic description. I do not know much about this subject, but I am sure that books and articles most likely have been written about it. Perhaps the place to begin would be by looking up "Hund" in the _Lexikon der Aegyptologie_, ed. Wolfgang Helck. > Also how difficult would it be to translate names of dogs into > hieroglyphics? Not difficult at all, if you tell what the names are. Yours, Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:36:38 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL again translation Dear Ms. Jourdan, > I do have another question: I have just received a book written in Italian > and translated in English as well titled "The face of Osiris -- painted > funerary shrouds of Roman Egypt". The Italian translation of Osiris is not > -- as I have usually seen it written -- Osiride, but rather Osiri. > I was wondering if anyone could help me with understanding why there are > two possibilities of name. Let's go back to the beginning of the name and trace its development through history. I think it will make better sense then. 3sjrj or wsjr, depending on which theory of the name you believe is correct ended up as Osiris in Greek. In Coptic it comes to us as {ousire} or {ousiri}. I would assume that some of the Italian authors are treating the name in the way that Greek words are treated by Italian through Latin. Osiris would be declined with a genitive form of Osiridis and an ablative form of Osiride. Generally, Italian takes the ablative forms of ancient Greek names. On the other hand, some other authors might be going back to the Egyptian Coptic form of the name for its ending rather than classicizing it in this way. The fact remains that most nouns in Italian have to end in a vowel, so it is going to be one approach or the other in order to accomplish this necessity. > I believe that in English, the names of Osiris, Isis and Horus remain > unchanged. Why would the Italians use two names ? Can anybody help me out ? In earlier Egyptological literature, there used to be considerable variation in the usages of Egyptian names. In order to create more homogeneity in English-language Egyptological scholarship, people had to come to a concensus on what forms of these proper names ought to become the standard. Because so many people disagreed on how one could best reconstruct the Egyptian language, since it was written only with consonants and no vowels, it was generally decided that when a Greek name for a god or king was available, it ought to be used by preference. That way the problem of reconstruction was avoided altogether. Example: English "Hathor": {haOr} is the Greek name for an Egyptian goddess, whos name has been reconstructed variously by different people. There is not even a complete concensus an the exact consonantal structure of her name. H.t-Hr, H.t-Hr.t, Hw.t-Hrw, Hw.t-Hr.y.t, and various other possible options have each been proposed. I tend to think that Hw.t-Hrw is by far the most likely, but even with this one skeleton, you can fill out the vowels variously. Just for fun, I will propose what I think the name actually must have once sounded like, but I guarantee you that there will be people who will say; "NO! That is impossible, it must have been ..." Old Kingdom *HiwatHAru > Middle Kingdom *HiwtHAru > New Kingdom *HutHAr > Late Period *HatHOr, then borrowed into Greek at this stage as {haOr}, and going into Coptic as {haOr} as well. Now, in order to write this name in its "original form", exactly which period is one going to pick as the standard in the first place? Then, there will also be people who have differnt theories as to how it could be reconstructed. If you look at the books of E.A. Wallis Budge, you will find him calling her "Hethert". So, with fifty different ways to write an Egyptian name in English, the student would be entirely confused until he/she learned why this was the case, but that could take an awful lot of work as you ight well imagine. This is why most Anglophone Egyptologists have concured in recognition of the necessity to set standard academic spellings and forms for these names. Students can learn them all this way and see consistency from one book to another, and if they advance in the Egyptian language, they will then know more about the names in question, but they should not feel obliged to pick one of the multitude of crazy spellings out there everytime they come accross a new Egyptian proper name. Does this make sense? Be well. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:33:58 +1100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Linda Evans Subject: AEL Was-scepter Dear Aayko, Graham, and anyone else following this thread! I've been away for a few days and so have only just received your postings regarding the was-scepter. I believe that the talk about the dried bull's penis that Graham heard at UC Berkeley was probably delivered by either Andrew Gordon (UC Berkeley?) or Calvin Schwabe (UC Davis). They have been following this line of enquiry for some years and have published a number of papers, most recently in JARCE: Gordon, Andrew H. and Schwabe, Calvin W., 'The Egyptian was-scepter and its modern analogues: Uses as symbols of divine power or authority', JARCE, (1995), XXXII, pp. 185-196. Schwabe, Calvin W. and Gordon, Andrew H., 'The Egyptian was-scepter and its modern analogues: Uses in animal husbandry, agriculture, and surveying', Agricultural History, (1988), 62, pp. 61-89. Linda ____________________ Linda Evans Animal Behaviour Lab Department of Psychology Macquarie University Sydney NSW 2109 Australia ____________________ ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:03:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Dr X Subject: Re: AEL again translation To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Cc: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Hi there, A quick and exhaustive reply. As you know Italian is a late stage of Latin and Italian nouns derive mainly from the Latin singular accusative by dropping the final -m (e.g. panem becomes pane (bread)). In Latin Osiris belongs to the third declension and in the accusative makes Orsiridem (Osiris, Osiridis 3rd dec) therefore in good Italian it should become Osiride but as it is a proper name used by classicists it sometimes is used as it is in Latin droppind final 's' that sounds awkward to our ears. best regards giorgio On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Francesca wrote: > I would like to thank all persons who have sent me a response regarding the > translation of Neferhotep (nfr-Htp). This will help me with my future > hieroglyphic studies and translations. > I do have another question: I have just received a book written in Italian > and translated in English as well titled "The face of Osiris -- painted > funerary shrouds of Roman Egypt". The Italian translation of Osiris is not > -- as I have usually seen it written -- Osiride, but rather Osiri. > I was wondering if anyone could help me with understanding why there are > two possibilities of name. > I believe that in English, the names of Osiris, Isis and Horus remain > unchanged. Why would the Italians use two names ? Can anybody help me out ? > > confused (still) > Francesca Jourdan > > ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:49:20 +0000 Subject: AEL Administrative Dear all, I will be away for the next 3 days, which means that messages sent to AEL between now and sunday evening will unfortunately not be distributed to the list until early sunday evening (U.K. time). Apologies in advance for the inconvenience. On another matter, did anyone realise that last friday was AEL's first birthday! The list started out 1 year ago with just 25 people who were interested in getting together on-line to study Ancient Egyptian. Almost since day 1, the list membership has continued to grow so that as of just now we have no fewer than 227 members. I would like to thank every one of you for your interest in this list, and in particular Geoffrey Graham, Michael Dyall-Smith, and Stephen Fryer for their consistent support of this project over the last 12 months. I know that many of you have commented to me over the last year about how much you have learnt from AEL and how satisfying the experience has been. I certainly have got a tremendous amount out of this myself. Let's hope the next 12 months is equally as successful. Best wishes, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== From: Paola Tesoriere To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Greetings from South America Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:59:01 -0300 >Are you a student in Egyptology? How did you get to >know this list? Dear Patrick, Hello there! God, does what you study sound difficult! I take off my hat = for you! I've been putting a lot of my brain to understand Middle = Egyptian Grammar and I'm still working on it. Basically I am a = "self-made" student of Egyptology, since it is very difficult to find = resources here. There's not even a university career called Egyptology! = So I've been searching everywhere: books, internet, videos, you name it. = I have somebody here who helps me out once in a while, but basically I'm = on my own. Searching is what have brought me to your list, so be kind = with me since I am probably very mistaken about many things! :) Kind regards, Paola. =20 ============================================================================== From: Aayko To: "AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk" Subject: AEL AW: AEL Names of Dogs? Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:17:21 +-100 Dear Mrs. Goodman, >Is their anyone out there who can tell me if their is a hieroglyph that describes dogs? The Egyptian word for dog/hound is _Tzm_, (tjezem), written: V13+O34+G17+E14 (Gardiner's sign list) The E14 is a depiction of a dog. The following is not a direct answer to your question, but I felt like sharing it with you, as I always found it such a charming and interesting subject myself (and likely all fellow dog-owners will agree). On a stela in the saff-tomb of king Injotef II, near El-Taraf (called 'Saff el-Kisasiya'), this pharaoh of the 11th dynasty is depicted in the year of his death (year 50) with his 5 favourite dogs. The stela is damaged, but the dogs are still very recognizable. I've a large upclose photo of it before me; not that I could tell the race of the animals. (They are taken to be greyhounds, but they do show variation in posture and ears). Even more interesting: the name of each dog is written above each dog! (Written with the dog determinative E14). And yet more intruiging: they bare foreign names, and in three cases an Egyptian translation of the name is given on the stela, written to the right of the dog (in two cases introduced by _r Dd_ , below translated as 'i.e.') I remembered these five dogs and their names being debated in Holscher's 'Libyer und Aegypter', on which the following is based: 1)_ bHk3i i.e. "Gazelle"_ The name, Behekay, is derived by scholars from the Bedauye word _bok_ , or the Geez word _bahak_, both meaning "gazelle". (Bedauye is likely Beja??, a Cushite language; Geez is an Ethiopian language). "Gazelle" is Egyptian _m3(H)HD_ , Mahedj, which Faulkner rather translates "oryx". This dog must have been elegant and swift? 2) _ 3b3qr_ No Egyptian translation given; the name, Abaqer, is derived by scholars from the Tamaschek word _abaikur_ = "greyhound" (Tamaschek is a Touareg/Berber language) 3) _phtz i.e. "Blackie"_ No explanation is found for the name Pehetez. "Blackie" is Egyptian _km(m)w_, Kemu. 4) _tqrw w H3t [V30] Xnft_ The name, Teqeru, is explained by sholars from the Berber word _tagere_ = "cask". Perhaps someone on AEL can make sense out of the Egyptian? Hoelscher renders it "Khnft-pot (?)". Perhaps this was a dog with a big appetite?? (analogue to us namecalling a pet that eats anything: 'Dustbin') :P 5) _tknrw_ The name /Tekenru/ is not explained. The stela btw is named by egyptologists 'the Dog-stela of Inyotef". An inspection report from dynasty 20 (Ramses IX) mentions it: "The image of the king stands upon this stela with his hound named Behka between his feet" (Gardiner p.118-119). Best wishes, Aayko Eyma Holland ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:48:49 -0800 From: Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Administrative Mark Wilson wrote: > > Dear all, > > I will be away for the next 3 days, which means that messages sent to > AEL between now and sunday evening will unfortunately not be > distributed to the list until early sunday evening (U.K. time). > Apologies in advance for the inconvenience. > > On another matter, did anyone realise that last friday was AEL's > first birthday! The list started out 1 year ago with just 25 people > who were interested in getting together on-line to study Ancient > Egyptian. Almost since day 1, the list membership has continued to > grow so that as of just now we have no fewer than 227 members. > [snip] Dear Mark and other members, HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Keep up the good work and let the list prosper and grow. Yours, Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues udjat@skynet.be Udjat, Eye in the Sky ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:15:20 -0200 (GMT) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: ioniccentre@hol.gr (Isidoros) Subject: Re: AEL Administrative - Congratulations on the Year >On another matter, did anyone realise that last friday was AEL's >first birthday! The list started out 1 year ago with just 25 people >who were interested in getting together on-line to study Ancient >Egyptian. Almost since day 1, the list membership has continued to >grow so that as of just now we have no fewer than 227 members. > >I would like to thank every one of you for your interest in this >list, and in particular >Mark Wilson Congratulations Mark. I think I am about to celebrate my 1 month on AEgyptian, and I 'd like you to know that I appreciate it, and that I 've realized a couple of things at times that were important to me. Thanks. May they be many and merry. Isidoros The Ionic Centre ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 17:17:30 -0500 From: herburgauer@sprintmail.com To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Question >From a quiet participant: Congratulations on the first year of existence and the enjoyable exchange of questions and answers! Question: How does one view the Westcar vocabulary on page 11 past lines 1-4? The next line instructions are covered up and I cannot figure out how to get to them. Thanks for your help! Herbert J. Burgauer ============================================================================== From: Tokapu@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:09:24 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL seven scorpions Dear Raven, Welll, just to get you started, I have my own translation of The Lament of Isis up with my Web site. That is at http://members.aol.com/tokapu/walkle01.htm It is an old piece of work, and I have it up for copyright protection, but it will get you started. Ramona Wheeler ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:15:53 -0800 From: Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Greetings from South America Paola Tesoriere wrote: > Dear Patrick, > Hello there! God, does what you study sound difficult! I take off my hat = > for you! I take off my hat for you, Paola: you are studying the language on your own with very little help. And you are not discouraged by it, on the contrary it seems. >I've been putting a lot of my brain to understand Middle = > Egyptian Grammar and I'm still working on it. Basically I am a = > "self-made" student of Egyptology, since it is very difficult to find = > resources here. There's not even a university career called Egyptology! Well, there isn't anymore in Belgium either, at least not in the Flemish part of our small country... [snip] >Searching is what have brought me to your list, so be kind = > with me since I am probably very mistaken about many things! :) We are ALL here to learn from each other. We have all started knowing very little or absolutely nothing about the Ancient Egyptian language. So never feel too shy or too afraid to ask any questions you may like. Remember: there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. Bye for now, Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues udjat@skynet.be Udjat, Eye in the Sky ============================================================================== From: "Jason Perry" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Help for the "Just Starting" Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:23:49 PST Hi, I am in the 8th Grade in the States and have started learning Egyptian to use as a code between my friends Thomas, Val, and David. I decided on Egyptian for several resons. First, a "code" would be too easy to break. Second, it would would be a lot harder to learn(I got a 5 day weekend this time due to P/T conferences and Prsident's Day). Lastly, I have been fond of ancient Egypt and especially the Pharaoh Ankhnaton. I started out Wednesday and using what I have gotten from the AEL website and Egyptlogica Vlaanderen VZW I have learned about 72 symbols and a vocab base of 36 words. My major question of the moment is how you change the tense of verbs like I loved I am loving I will love not nesarrily those but of all verbs. How do you change the tense of Egyptian verbs. Thank you for your time in help answer this question. Jason Perry E-Mail: volcanopele@hotmail.com Website: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/9975 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ==============================================================================