From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.15 Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 00:49:52 -0600 18.15 transliteration: rdj.n.j wAt n rdwj.j m xd dmj.n.j jnbw-HqA translation: I gave the road to my feet north; I reached jnbw-HqA There are two independent clauses here. Both of these clauses have verbal predicates, and both lack any introductory words or proclitic particles. The first clause is 'rdj.n.j wAt n rdwj.j m xd'. It starts off immediately with 'rdj.n.j'. This involves the perfect of the anomalous verb 'rdj' ("give"); the perfect of this verb is formed from the base stem (here the base stem with 'r': 'rdj') with the suffix 'n' attached. The 1CS suffix pronoun 'j' denotes the subject ("I") of the clause. 'wAt' ("road") is the object of the verb. The first clause concludes with two prepositional phrases. The first is 'n rdwj.j' and is a dative. 'rdwj' is the dual of 'rd' ("foot") denoting a pair of feet; 'n rdwj.j' means "to my feet". The other prepositional phrase is 'm xd', which the dictionary in the back translates as "downstream, north". The verb could be translated into English with the simple past tense or the past perfect depending on context. If the action of the second clause is to be viewed as necessarily following the action of the first clause, this would be better represented by translating using a past perfect. Allen translates using the simple past tense giving "I gave the road to my feet north". The second clause in this example is 'dmj.n.j jnbw-HqA'. This starts off immediately with 'dmj.n.j' which involves the perfect of the 3-lit. verb 'dmj' ("reach,touch"); the perfect is formed using the base stem. The 1CS suffix pronoun 'j' denotes the subject ("I") of the clause. The object of the verb in the second clause is the proper noun 'jnbw-HqA'. This is a direct genitive between 'jnbw', which means "walls", and 'HqA', which means "ruler"; hence 'jnbw-HqA' means "Walls of the Rulers". 18.15 rdj.n.j wAt n rdwj.j m xd, dmj.n.j jnbw-HqA Grammar involved: Perfect tense. There are two independent clauses, and each one has a verb in the perfect. The two verbs: rdj.n.j - I gave. The 'n' marks the perfect, and the 'j' shows that the subject is first person singular ('I'). Note: rdj is an anomalous verb 'to give'. It has 2 base stems: dj and rdj. To form the perfect, either base can be used. So 'I gave' could be written as either 'dj.n.j' or 'rdj.n.j'. dmj - 3-weak verb, meaning 'to reach', 'to touch'. dmj.n.j - I reached. The 'n' marks the perfect, and the 'j' shows that the subject is first person singular ('I'). The two verbs are the heart of the sentence ("I gave ..... I reached....."). Now that we've got them out of the way, we can flesh out the rest of the sentence with the other elements. wAt - road, path. This is the object of the verb 'rdj'. rdj.n.j wAt - I gave the road. (Remember, the perfect of a transitive verb denotes completed action AND expresses past time.) rd - foot, leg rdwj - dual of the above. See Allen 4.7 for a review of the dual forms. rdwj.j - my (two) feet rdj.n.j wAt n rdwj.j I gave the road to my (two) feet (This is apparently an Egyptian idiom meaning 'to go' or 'to leave'. Sounds a little quaint, but if English speakers can 'take to their heels', I guess we can let the Egyptians 'give the road' to their feet.) xdj - weak verb meaning 'to go downstream', 'to go north'. From it, the expression 'm xd' is derived, meaning 'downstream', 'in a downstream direction'. Which following the course of the Nile would be north, toward the Mediterranean. jnb - noun, 'wall' HqA - noun, 'ruler' jnbw HqA - place name, 'walls of the Ruler' (name of a frontier fort). This is the object of the verb 'dmj.n.j'. This sentence comes from the 'Tale of Sinuhe', apparently a very popular tale in ancient Egypt. Miriam Lichtheim has a translation of this in her 'Ancient Egyptian Literature (vol.1). She translates the sentence as: "Then I made my way northward." 18.15 rdj.n=j wAt n rdwj=j m xd dmj.n=j jnbw-HqA rdj.n=j 1S perfect of an irregular verb 'to give, put cause' wAt road n to rwdj=j my feet, dual m xd 'downstream' dmj.n=j 1S perfect of a verb (3-lit) dmj 'to reach, touch' jnbw-HqA Walls of the Ruler, the name of a border fort. In hieroglyphs, the word HqA, the Ruler, is written first due to honorific transposition I gave road to my feet [and went] downstream and reached the Walls of the Ruler 18.15 Read right to left. jnbw-HqA = name of a frontier fort (4.15) Transliteration: rdj.n.j wAt n rdwj.j m xd dmj.n.j jnbw-Hqa Dissection: 1) rd.n.j = "I gave," perfect form of rdj "give, put, cause" with the 1st person singular suffix pronoun serving as the subject. 2) wAt = "road, path" 3) n = "to" (preposition) 4) rdwj.j = "my feet," spelled D56-D56-A1. rd "foot"is spelled D56. Written twice gives us the dual form (4.7), therefore, this is literally, "my two feet." 5) rd.n.j wAt n rdwj.j = literally, "I gave the road to my two feet" 6) m xdj = "downstream/north," spelled G17-Aa1:D46-P1 7) rd.n.j wAt n rdwj.j m xdj = Allen translates this as "I gave the road to my feet downstream," but the juxtaposition of "road" and "downstream" seems a bit incongruous. A better choice might be the "north" although this might require several additional words in the English that are not actually present in the Egyptian. 8) dmj.n.j = "I reached" perfect from dmj (verb 3ae-inf) "reach, touch" QUESTION: [Note: I do not quite understand why this is spelled dmj.n.j and not dm.n.j] 9) jnbw-HqA = honorific transposition (4.15) requires that this be spelled HqA ("ruler")-jnbw ("walls" from jnb "wall"). The name of the fort could be transliterated as Inebu-heqa and literally translated as "Walls of the Ruler." Translation: Literal: I gave the road to my two feet downstream. I reached Inebu-heqa. Paraphrase: I gave my feet to the road in the north and reached Inebu-heqa, which is "The Walls of the Ruler." ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.17 Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 01:12:19 -0600 18.17 glyphs: m-a-k-t-w-jw-w-t-H-DET-n-k-xAst-t-|-pl.sign grouped: m.k tw jw.t H.n.k xAswt adding in weak consonants: m.k tw jw.t(j), H(w).n.k xAswt words: m.k = look, behold tw = you jw.tj To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.16 Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 01:01:40 -0600 18.16 ORIENTATION: horizontal, right to left, normal TRANSLITERATION: P6-D36:N35-W25-N35:N35-A1-Aa1:X1-Y1:Z2:I9-M16-G1-N29:D36-N35:A1- Y5:N35-Y5:N35:X1-E1-Z2:I9-V15:X1-D36:N35-A1-N35:X1:X1-G17-M17-U1-G1- G17-O1:I9-V31A:I9-S28-D36:N35-A1-D36:I9-G1-M17-M17-O1:I9 P6-D36:N35 aHa-a(complement):n W25-N35:N35-A1 jn-n(complement):n-j Aa1:X1-Y1:Z2:I9 x-t-{ Det WRITING, ABSTRACT, CONCEPTS}:( Det in PLURAL}:f M16-G1-N29:D36- N35:A1 HA-A(complement)-q:{var for D41? - Det FORCE, EFFORT}-n:j Y5:N35-Y5:N35:X1-E1-Z2:I9 mn:n(complement)-mn:n(complement):t-{ Det CATTLE}-{ Det in PLURAL}:f V15:X1-D36:N35-A1 jT(archaizing?):t(complement):(var for D40 - {Det FORCE, EFFORT):n-j N35:X1:X1 n:t:t G17 m M17-U1-G1-G17-O1:I9 j-mA-A(complement)-m-{ Det BUILDING}:f V31A:I9-S28-D36:N35-A1 k:f-{ Det CLOTH)- {var for D41? - Det FORCE, EFFORT}:n-j D36:I9-G1-M17-M17-O1:I9 a:f-A-j-j-{ Det BUILDING, PLACE}:f aHa.n jn.n.j xt.f HAq.n.j mnmnt.f jt.n.j ntt m jmA.f kf.n.j afAy.f QUESTION: Allen transliterates jmA as jmAm, then notes that the m indicates that the A in jmA had been lost in pronunciation. So why the m is included in the transliteration, I don't know. Perhaps the A shouldn't be either? VOCABULARY: aHa.n - introductory word - "then" jtj - verb, 3ai - "take possession of" xt - noun, f - "things, stuff" HAq - verb, 3lit - "loot, plunder" mnmnt - noun, f - "herd" (of cattle) jtj - verb, 3ai - "take possession of" ntt - relative adjective, f - "which" m - preposition jmA - noun, m - "tent" kfj - verb, 3ai - "strip, unravel" afAj - noun, m - "camp" GRAMMAR: aHa.n + perfect indicates past tense, jt.n.j is a perfect form. QUESTION: xt - object of jt.n.j. I don't know why Allen sometimes uses xt and other times xwt when plurals are indicated. Kamrin says xt is the norm. HAq.n.j - also a perfect, assume aHa.n governs this verb as well. mnmnt - object of HAq.n.j jt.n.j - also a perfect, assume aHa.n governs this verb as well. ntt .. afAy.f - relative clause, object of jtj. m jmAa - prepositional phrase/adverbial clause of place. kf.n.j - also a perfect, assume aHa.n governs this verb as well. fAy.f - object of kfj. Structure: aHa.j governs four verbs and their associated phrases. .jt.n.j xt .HAq.n.j mnmnt.f .jt.n.j ntt m jmA.f (substituting a relative object for a nominal one) .jf.n.j fAy.f TRANSLATION: "Then I seized his goods, then I plundered his cattle, then I took what he had in his tent, then I stripped his camp." 18.16 transliteration: aHa.n jn.n.j xwt.f HAq.n.j mnmnt.f jt.n.j ntt m jmAm.f kf.n.j afAy.f translation: Then I got his things, plundered his cattle, took possession of what was in his tent, and stripped his camp. This sentence is composed of four independent clauses. The first clause is 'aHa.n jn.n.j xwt.f'. It starts off with the introductory word 'aHa.n' which is typically translated "then". When a verb in the perfect follows 'aHa.n', it denotes a past event rather than completed action and thus is typically translated using the simple past tense. 'aHa.n' is followed by 'jn.n.j' which involves the perfect of the 3ae-inf. verb 'jnj' ("fetch, get, use"); the perfect is formed using the base stem. The 1CS suffix pronoun 'j' denotes the subject ("I"). The object of the verb is 'xwt.f'; 'xwt' is the plural of 'xt' ("thing"); with the 3MS suffix pronoun 'f' attached, 'xwt.f' means "his things". Putting the above together and using the simple past tense of "get", we have that the first clause translates as "I got his things". The second clause is 'HAq.n.j mnmnt.f' which involves the perfect of the 3-lit. verb 'HAq' ("loot, plunder"). The 1CS suffix pronoun 'j' is the subject ("I") of the sentence. The object of the verb is 'mnmnt.f'. 'mnmnt' means "cattle"; with the 3MS suffix pronoun 'f' attached, 'mnmnt.f' means "his cattle". Since the string of clauses in this example (sentence) represents a related series of conceptions, we continue to use the simple past tense in translation. Thus, the second clause translates as "I plundered his cattle". The third clause is 'jt.n.j ntt m jmAm.f'. This starts off with 'jt.n.j' which involves the perfect of the 3ae-inf. Verb 'jtj' ("take possession of") (This word had an older form 'jTj'; the spelling with the X1 bread loaf ('t') represents the later form 'jtj'.); the perfect here is formed using the base stem of the verb. The 1CS suffix pronounce denotes the subject ("I") of the clause. The object of the verb in the third clause is the noun clause 'ntt m jmAm.f'. Besides marking this as a noun clause, 'ntt' also serves as the subject of the clause (and corresponds to the pronoun "that" or "what"). The predicate is adverbial and is given by the prepositional phrase 'm jmAm.f', which means "in his tent". Thus, the third clause is translated "I took possession of what was in his tent". The fourth clause is 'kf.n.j afAy.f'. This starts off with 'kf.n.j' which involves the perfect of the 3ae-inf. verb 'kfj'; the perfect is formed using the base stem of the verb. The 1CS suffix pronoun 'j' is the subject ("I") of this clause. The object of the verb is 'afAy.f' which means "his camp". Thus, the fourth clause means "I stripped his camp". 18.16 (rdj.n.j wAt n rdw.j m Xd, dmj.n.j jnbw-hqA) (rdj.n.j) verb, 3-lit., perfect, 1S = I gave, I put (wAt) noun = road (n) preposition = in (rdw.j) plural noun + 1MS suffix pronoun = my feet, my legs (m) preposition + (Xd) = downstream, north I gave the road to my feet downstream. (dmj.n.j) verb, 3-lit., perfect, 1S, = I reached, I touched (jnbww-hqA) plural noun = walls + noun [= ruler direct genitive = walls of the ruler] I touched the walls of the Ruler. 18.16 aHa.n jn.n=j x(w)t=f HAq.n=j mnmn(w)t=f jT.n=j ntt m jmA=f kf.n=j afAy=f aHa.n 'then' jn.n=j 1S perfect of the verb jnj - to take x(w)t=f 'his things' HAq.n=j 1S perfect of the verb (3 lit) HAq, 'loot, plunder' mnmn(w)t=f 'his herds of cattle' jT.n=j 1S perfect of the verb (3ae-inf) jTj, 'to take posession of' ntt relative adjective 'that, which' m 'in' jmA=f 'his tent' kf.n=j 1S perfect of the verb (3ae-inf) kfj 'to strip, unravel' afAy=f 'his camp' Then I took his things, I have plundered his herds of cattle, I took posession of what was in his tent, I stripped his camp. ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:20:00 -0800 (PST) From: Donald Boozer Subject: RE: AEL Re: New Text to Translate To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Cc: GlyphStudy@yahoogroups.com From AEL: The Projet Rosette looks very interesting. This might be a good place for the Allen Group to Start. I think we might at least be able to do some transliteration (if not complete translations). I would agree with Christine who said "There are texts and texts though, if we started off simple maybe or one or two lines a week." I looked at the stelae and monuments at Projet Rosette and some look like the exercises in Allen. What does the group think? ============================================================================== From: "msv" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: New Text to Translate Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:30:39 -0000 As some of you 'are / maybe' interested in doing a text...................would any of you like a go at one of the scarab texts. Very short and fairy basic. ?? mark v ============================================================================== From: "Nick Mills" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.15 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:24:07 -0000 Although the verb 'dmj' ends in the weak consonant 'j', it does not belong to the 3ae-inf. class. It is triliteral (3-lit.) - see p,471 and §13.5. Note: in 'dmj' the final consonant is explicitly written (d-mj-j-D54); in weak verbs the final consonant is dropped from the stem and not written. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk > Sent: 20 November 2006 06:50 > To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.15 > > 8) dmj.n.j = "I reached" > > perfect from dmj (verb 3ae-inf) "reach, touch" > > > > QUESTION: > > [Note: I do not quite understand why this is spelled > > dmj.n.j and not dm.n.j] ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.18 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:03:30 -0600 18.18 read right to left m pH ntj nj pH.n.f tw Don't attack one who doesn't attack you. m preposition pH verb 2-lit attack ntj relative adjective who nj negation don't ntj nj negated perfect in a relative clause pH attack tw personal pronoun 2ms 5.4 you 18.18 ORIENTATION: horizontal, right to left, normal TRANSLITERATION: G17-Q3-V28-F22:D54-N35:X1*Z4-D35-F22:D54-N35:I9-X1-Z7 G17 m Q3-V28-F22:D54 p(complement)-H(complement)-pH:{ Det MOTION} N35:X1*Z4 n:t*j D35 nj F22:D54-N35:I9 p(complement)-H(complement)-pH:{ Det MOTION}-n:f X1-Z7 t-w m pH(w) nty nj pH.n.f tw VOCABULARY: m - negative particle pH - verb, 2lit - "reach, catch, attack" ntj - relative adjective,ms nj - negative particle f - suffix pronoun, 3ms tw - dependent pronoun, 2ms GRAMMAR: m + negatival complement = prohibition. So the verb form probably is pH(w). ntj . relative clause, object of pH nj - negates the perfect form pH tw - object of pH TRANSLATION: "Do not attack him who has not attacked you." or translating the perfect as a present tense: "Do not attack him how is not attacking you." Not much difference. 18.18 Tranliteration: m pH ntj nj pH.n.f tw Translation: Don't attack one who doesn't attack you. m = don't - imperative form of negative verb jmj pH = attack - verb 2-lit ntj= who - relative adjective nj = not/no - negative particle pH.n.f - perfect of verb attack tw = you - 2 ms ntj nj pH.n.f tw = who has not attacked you. 18.18 m pH ntj nj pH.n.f tw m = negtive imperative = don't pH = verb 2-lit = negatival complement = reach, catch, attack m pH = don't attack ntj = relative adjective (S.12.3) = those who are/were = one who . (to agree with the suffix '.f' in 'pH.n.f' below) m pH ntj = don't attack one who . nj = negation QUESTION: (I cannot explain the grammatical reason for nj in this context) pH = verb 2-lit = reach, catch, attack pH.n.f = perfect form of verb + suffix prounoun = (he/it) has attacked tw = dependent pronoun = you, your nj pH.n.f tw = have not attacked you m pH ntj nj pH.n.f tw = don't attack one who has not attacked you ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: Mark V's Request for new Translation projects Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:38:02 -0600 Well Mark V, since you are so keen, we probably should take pity on you *teasing* and try to do some short text with you Come on folks, aren't there any more advanced people out there who would like to start a translation group for something longer in the new year? Mark, maybe if you suggested a text to the long time AEL folks, they would bite--maybe no one wants to select one and organize the study. Show us the Scarab Text you want to do with the Allen group, or link us, and some of us might try to look at it during our break. We are taking off for Winter Holiday after we finish our last collation for Lesson 18--that will be next Sunday. We don't want to lose all our Middle Egyptian during December and early January--and while we need to do some review too, we can take a look at the scarab text. I hope it's fun. Remember though, we haven't had the Subjunctive, or Participles or really many verbs types of yet. We are in Lesson 18 of 25... So... we will be at a slight disadvantage if we have to teach ourselves new topics just to translate something. best, Karen ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.19 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:48:36 -0600 18.19 Read right to left. Transliteration: nj rx.n.tw mAat r grgw Dissection: 1) nj = negation. The negated perfect denotes negationof action, ability, or necessity ("can't, don't, does not, does not have to...") (18.14) 2) rx.n = perfect form of rx (verb 2-lit) "know,learn, experience." The perfect rx.n seems to be used whenthe action of learning or experiencing something is more important than the resulting state of knowledge (in which case the stative is used) (18.10) 3) .tw = impersonal pronoun "one" 4) nj rx.n.tw = "One cannot learn, One cannot know" 5) mAat = "truth" (See Essay 10) 6) r = preposition, literally "with respect to." Can be translated "from" in this case (as in, "distinguish the good 'from' the bad") 7) grgw = lies, lying, falsehoods, fabrications (see Note below) Translation: One cannot know truth from fabrications. One cannot learn truth from lies. Note: Allen translates this as "One cannot know truth from lying." I found this sentence to be a little ambiguous. Is it saying one cannot know how to tell the truth except by lying first? Is it saying one cannot know truth without also knowing lies? Allen gives the source as "Westcar 6, 23-24 (partly restored)." Researching this, I found that the sentence is from a story about several people telling stories to a king. Then, Hardedef tells the king these stories can't be verified because they happened a long time ago. In other words, nj rx.n.tw mAat r grgw "One cannot know truth from fabrications." A good discussion of this sentence is available at http://www.rostau.org.uk/WESTCAR/COMNTSP1/TRANSCOM.HTM. One posting states that the word grgw is related to the verb grg meaning "create, establish, found," whichthen leads to grgw being translated as "fabrication," not simply malicious lying. The sentence then seems to say that we can't tell whether these stories are true or fabrications because they are so old, there is no one we can ask to verify their veracity. 18.19 Transliteration: nj rx.n.tw mAat r grgw Translation: One cannot know truth from lying. nj = not - negative particle - negated perfect (18.14) rx= know - verb s-lit rx.n.tw perfect + 2ms =you do not know mAat = truth - noun r = with respect to - preposition grgw = lying - noun Perfect of rx express the action of experiencing or learning about something as completed (18.10) 18.19 nj rx.n.tw mAat r grgw One cannot tell truth from lies. nj = "not", negative particle rx.n.tw = "one knows", perfect of rx (2-lit.) mAat = "truth" r = "from", preposition grgw = "lies" This sentence contains the negated perfect of 'rx' with the impersonalpronoun 'tw' as subject (§18.6). The negated perfect expresses the negation of action, ability or necessity (§18.14); so this means "one cannot know /learn". The object is 'mAat', "truth" and is followed by the prepositionalphrase 'r grgw'., "from lies" (cf. §8.2.7, 5th bullet point). Instead of"know", it is more natural in English to say "One cannot tell truth from lies". This fits with the emphasis on the action of learning instead of the state of knowledge, mentioned in §18.10. 18.19 nj rx.n tw mAat r grgw nj - negation rx.n tw passive perfect of the verb rx 'to learn, to know' mAat 'truth' r 'with respect to' grgw 'lies' One cannot know truth from the lie(s) ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.21 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:08:55 -0600 18.21 read right to left nHmn zA.f aq.(w)r aH, jt.n.f jwat nt jt(j).f His son has surely entered the palace, having taken the inheritance of his father. nHmn particle 16.6.10 surely zA noun son .f his aq.(w) verb 2-lit enter aq.(w) r entered into aH noun palace jt verb 3ae-inf take possession of n of .f his jwat noun inheritance jt(j).f noun father ********************************************************************** 18.21 glyphs: n-Hm-m-a-n-zA-DET-f-aq-q-DET-r-aH-a-DET-iTi-t-a-n-f-jw-a-t-/-DET-pl.sign-n-t-j-t-f-DET-f grouping together: nHmn zA.f aq r aH jt.n.f jwat nt jt.f adding in weak consonants: nHmn zA.f aq.(w) r aH jt.n.f jwat nt jt(j).f words: nHmn = surely zA = son, zA.f = his son aq.w < aq = enter; aq.w = he is/has entered stative of intrans. verb is past tense r = to, into aH = palace, cabin jt.n.f < jtj = take possession of; jt.n.f = he has taken possession of jwat = inheritance - fem. Noun nt = of, agreeing with jwat jtj.f < jtj = father, jtj.f = his father so, two short statements, one with stative indicating past, one using the perfect 1. surely his son has entered the palace 2. he has taken possession of the inheritance of his father can combine in various ways, most simply with `and' finally as per Allen: His son has surely entered the palace, having taken his father's inheritance Allen Exercise 18.21 (read right to left) nHmn zA.f aq.(w) r aH jt.n.f jwat nt jt(j).f "Surely his son who has entered the palace has claimed his father's inheritance." nHmn - particle "surely" zA.f - "his son" aq.(w) - stative of the 2-lit. verb 'aq' "enter" with unwritten 3MS suffix. Again, we know this because we have a verb following a subject, so it must be the subject-stative construction. r - preposition "into" aH - "palace" object of the preposition jt.n.f - perfect of the 3ae-inf. verb 'jtj' "take possession of" with 3MS suffix pronoun as subject jwat - noun "inheritance" object of the verb 'jtj' nt - preposition marking in indirect genitive, feminine to agree with 'jwat' jt(j).f - his father. This exercise has two verbal clauses. 'zA.f aq.(w) r aH' is "His son has entered the palace." 'jt.n.f jwat nt jt(j).f' is "He claimed his father's inheritance." QUESTION: In the key, Allen treats these as two independent clauses, and they can work that way. "Surely his son as entered the palace. He claimed his father's inheritance". I thought the first clause was actually a noun clause, acting as a preposed subject to 'jt.n.f'. Is that equally valid? ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:33:09 EST From: EmbrdrKBH@aol.com Subject: Re: AEL Re: New Text to Translate To: , I have to agree with this. As much as I want to translate anything and everything, I really don't think I'm quite ready. Not just yet. Karen Louisville ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "AEL" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.20 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:58:10 -0600 18.20 transliteration: nj qbb.n xrwj m Xnw kmt translation: An enemy cannot become calm in the capital of Egypt. This sentence involves a negated perfect. The negation is accomplished by the particle 'nj' which is the first word in the sentence. This is followed by 'qbb.n' which is the perfect of the 2ae-gem. verb 'qbb' ("cool, calm"); the perfect is formed using the geminated stem in this case. The subject of the sentence is 'xrwy' ("enemy"). The sentence concludes with the prepositional phrase 'm Xnw kmt'. 'Xnw' means "capital" and 'kmt' means "Egypt"; these are in a direct genitive, so 'Xnw kmt' means "capital of Egypt". The negated perfect denotes the negation of action, ability, or necessity, and it is normally translated using the present tense in English. One translation is "an enemy cannot become calm in the capital of Egypt". If this sentence is about a defined enemy occupying the capital, another possible translation is "the enemy is not calm in the capital of Egypt". 18.20 s: nj-q-b-b-DET-DET-DET-n-xrw-w-j-j-DET-DET-m-Χn-n-nw-w-DET-km-m-t-DET grouping: nj qbb.n xrwy m Xnw kmt words: nj = neg. particle qbb.n < qbb = be cool, be calm; qbb.n - perf form of adj.verb thus `has become calm/cool' BUT when negated > present tense and shows lack of action, ability, necessity nj qbb.n = he is not calm, he cannot be calm, he does not need to be calm xrwy = enemy m = in m Xnw = inside, in the interior kmt = Egypt m Xnw kmt = inside Egypt so, perf of adj.verb with adverbial phrase iterally: he is not/cannot be/cannot become calm, the enemy, in the interior of Egypt finally as per Allen: an enemy cannot become calm in the capital Egypt 18.20 nj qbb.n xrwy m Xnw kmt An enemy cannot become calm inside Egypt. nj = "not", negative particle qbb.n = "become calm", perfect of qbb (2ae-gem) xrwy = "an enemy", the subject of the verb m Xnw kmt = "inside Egypt", prepositional phrase This sentence contains the negation of the perfect of the adjective verb'qbb', "to be cool / calm" with 'xrwy', "enemy", as the subject. The perfectof an adjective verb expresses acquistion of a quality (§18.3, penultimate paragraph). So 'qbb.n' means "to become calm". The negative denotes the negation of action, ability or necessity, which gives "An enemy cannot become calm". The sentence concludes with the prepositional phrase 'm Xnw kmt', "inside Egypt", with the compound preposition 'm Xnw' (p. 464) - literally "in the interior". Allen Exercise 18.20 (read right to left) nj qbb.n xrwy m Xnw kmt nj - negative qbb.n - perfect of the 2ae-gem. verb 'qbb' "cool, calm" xrwy - for xrwj "enemy" subject of the perfect m - preposition "in" Xnw - "inside, interior" kmt - "egypt" in direct genitive with Xnw This sentence is a negated perfect construction, marked by the initial particle 'nj'. The completion being negated is 'qbb.n xrwy' "an enemy became calm" or "an enemy was calm". More liternally "an enemy could not achieve calmness." This is modified by an adverbial prepositional phrase 'm Xnw kmt' "in the interior of Egypt". Saying where the enemy could not become calm. More freely, this is, "An enemy cannot be calm inside Egypt." Question: In the key, Allen translates 'Xnw kmt' as "capitol of Egypt", and gives this as a variant in the dictionary. Does the O49 determinative indicate this meaning in particular, or could one only choose between the meanings by context? Faulkner gives "Royal residence, often with det O49," but otherwise just gives the spelling with O1. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 02:26:10 -0800 (PST) From: Carlos Moreira Subject: AEL imn renders Amon. Why ? To: Ancient Egyptian Language mailing list Folks, I'm sure this is a very simple question for you, but it is something that keeps bugging me. Why is the first phoneme /i/ in the /imn/ particule usually rendered as "a", such as in Amon/Amun/Amen ? Is it mainly because we know such is how our classical sources wrote Amon's name, starting with an A instead of an I, or is there also some underlying reason for using A in many instances where an I would be more straightforward. Maybe I didn't explained myself well, but basically why do we transliterate the "i" so many times into "a" ?? Amon is just one of few words where I have noticed this swapping of vowels. thanks in advance Carlos Moreira Portugal ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:34:31 +1100 From: Rob Persson To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL imn renders Amon. Why ? Carlos, I believe that Amun is used as a translated word, whereas jmn(w) / imn(w) is used in transliteration. Your correct with the Classical sources - Amun being Ammon or Hammon in them. As you may know, the glyph did not represent the /i/ when we say /imenu/. The was a palatal approximant/glide (the /y/ in English /yes/). The vowel sound after the /j/ would have changed over time, but around the Late Period, would have been something of an /ah/ sound; the vocalisation in the Late Period would have been something like /yamen/, although it's impossible to tell. Hence the Greek Ammon, which has become Amen, Amun, and Amon over time. It's interesting that the Ancient Greek seems to have preserved the Ancient vocalisation. If you're eager to drown in linguistics, have a look at Loprieno's book /Ancient Egyptian: A Linguistic Introduction/, he deals with phonology quite extensively in chapter 3. Hope that helps, Rob Persson ============================================================================== From: Raweaver02@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:03:19 EST Subject: Re: AEL Re: New Text to Translate To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Sure, why not? Part of the allure learning ancient Egyptian is being able to decipher the snippets that you see in museums, on coffins, on stelae. I love Allen's textbook, I love working through it slowly and methodically, and I enjoy the slow accumulation of grammatical knowledge. And I plan to stick with it. But it might be fun to switch gears, so to speak, and broaden my horizons by taking a side look at another genre. Count me in! rich weaver ============================================================================== Subject: RE: AEL Re: New Text to Translate Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:16:43 -0000 From: "Stott Mark \(Royal Devon and Exeter Foundation Trust\)" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Dear Mark, I think the Amenhotep III scarabs would be ideal material. Thers also good material on the French site - possibly the hymn to the Aten from Ay's tomb (translation but not transliteration also available from Miriam Lictheim). Mark ============================================================================== From: "raymond usher-cooper." To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: Is anybody there? / New Text to Translate Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:26:26 -0000 I have just begun working on the 'Dream' stela of Tuthmoses IV and, if anyone would care to join me, I would be glad to have some additional input and support since I feel fairly certain I will eventually run into a problem or two along the way. Though I did notice that the response to Mark's invitation seemed a little thin on the ground - nevertheless, if anyone has an alternative proposal and prefers to tackle some other reasonably short text - then I'll be happy to go along with it whenever a decision has been reached. Regards to all, Raymond A. Usher-Cooper. ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 00:49:14 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re: New Text to Translate Does anyone have an MdC of the Thoth hymn from the statuette at Deir el Medina? My greatest interest in translating texts is the religious poetry and the wisdom literature. ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Re: Is anybody there? / New Text to Translate Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:46:40 +1100 Hi Raymond, I haven't done any hieroglyph work for ages, but the 'Dream' stela of Tuthmoses IV might tempt me to get back into it. Is the text online? Jenny Carrington ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Raymond Usher's Request for the Dream Stele Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:58:16 -0600 Hey Raymond, I think this also sounds like a cool project, though perhaps beyond the Allen Study group? Can you tell us where we can find this text? And what are you doing about vocabulary? Is there an online source for this and also for the vocabulary, or would one need a dictionary? I ask, because not all the GlyphStudy folks have advanced resources yet, and while I don't think we can commit to a long text yet, some of our group might like to follow your discussions if you get this project up and going. I would like to follow this project if you can point us toward a readily accessible source and I can find vocabulary. It seems that there are a few things folks want to translate--so it's just a matter of setting things up ( : Bob Myers wants to do the Thoth hymn so anybody who is interested in that, please chime in, and Mark Vygus wants to do the Scarab Texts (the GlyphStudy group is already going to take as stab at these--since they are relatively short) Perhaps Mark, Bob and Raymond could do the Thoth Hymn and the Dream Stele after we do the Scarab texts? and join us for those? Since we will want as many advanced folks as possible. I will leave that up to those of you who are qualified to tackle more advanced translations ( : best, Karen ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL imn renders Amon. Why ? Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:57:38 -0800 Hello, Carlos There was really no swapping. /i/ was the best glottal stop the Egyptians had and it was the rule rather than the exception for it to be vocalized as something like "a". We write it /i/ but it was rarely what we would consider any kind of real "i"--and there is already /a/ and /A/, the last being quite a complex grapheme. ============================================================================== From: "Nick Mills" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL Re: New Text to Translate Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 10:02:12 -0000 If we start a new text, other than the scarabs, I'd be interested in participating. Nick Mills ==============================================================================