Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 02:40:45 -0800 (PST) From: Carlos Moreira Subject: Re: AEL verb form of "di.f" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi John that seems a simple question for a guy like me, so I 'm gonna take a chance.... di verb f personal suffix-pronoun I guess the rendering can be "he gives", as well as "may he give", or any others. If the sentence is as small as is usual in these kind of formulaic inscriptions, I guess there could be several alternatives, due to the absence of a significant adjoining context. As long as you use the active voice, I guess any of those renderings is fine.... best regards Carlos Moreira Portugal ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:23:09 +0100 From: Michael Hahn To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL verb form of "di.f" Hi John, dj.f can be an adverbial/predicative present/progressive ("by giving, while he is giving, because he gives, etc.") or a Subjunctive (diffucult to translate). Since there is no nominal phrase or verb form in front of the dj.f of your example, I would prefer the latter possibility, therefore your second translation seems to be correct. As Carlos has written di.f could also be a passive form, but this seems to be impossible in this context. Regards, Michael Hahn ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.11 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:17:25 -0600 18.11 read from right to left (jnk hnn nj wrd.n.f m wjA n ra) (jnk) 1S independent pronoun = I (hnn) according to Allen: noun = rower (nj) particle = no, not (wrd.n.f) intransitive verb, 3-lit., perfect, 3MS = he has tired (m) preposition = in (wjA) noun = barque (n) preposition = of (ra) proper noun = Re I am a rower not tired in the barque of Re. 18.11 read from right to left (jnk hnn nj wrd.n.f m wjA n ra) (jnk) 1S independent pronoun = I (hnn) according to Allen: noun = rower (nj) particle = no, not (wrd.n.f) intransitive verb, 3-lit., perfect, 3MS = he has tired (m) preposition = in (wjA) noun = barque (n) preposition = of (ra) proper noun = Re I am a rower not tired in the barque of Re. 18.11 ORIENTATION: horizontal, right to left, normal TRANSLITERATION: W24:V31-A1-D33:N35-N35:P1-D35:G36-D21:D46-A7-G37-N35:I9-G17-G43-M17- G1-P30-Z1:N35-D21:D36-N5:A40 W24:V31-A1 jn:k-{ Determinative MAN} D33:N35-N35:P1 Xn:n(complement)-n:{ Det BOAT} D35 nj G36-D21:D46-A7-G37-N35:I9 wr-r(complement):d-{ Det. WEARY, WEAK, SOFT}-{ Det SMALL, BAD}-n:f G17 m G43-M17-G1-P30-Z1 w(complement)-j(complement)-A(complement)-wjA-{ Used as ideogr of signs meant to be read as ideograms rather than phonograms} TKSesh didn't recognize P30. N35 n D21:D36-N5:A40 r:a-{ Det SUN}:{ Det. GOD} N5 also spells ra, so D21:D36 could also be regarded as complements. jnk Xnn nj wrd.n.f m wjA n ra. VOCABULARY: jnk - independent pronoun, 1st sing. Xnn - noun,m - "rower" nj - negative particle wrd - verb, 3lit - "tire, die" m - preposition wjA - noun, m - "boat" n - genitival adjective ra - noun, proper - "Re" GRAMMAR: jnk Xnn - AB pattern nominal clause nj wrd.n.f - negation of an intransitive perfect verb form, indicating present tense, negating action, ability, or necessity (18.14). A direct relative clause after an undefined antecedent (18.12) m wjA - prepositional phrase wjA n ra - indirect genitive. TRANSLATION: "I am a rower, who cannot tire (die) in Ra's boat." 18.11 glyphs: jn/nw-k-DET-Xn-n-n-DET-nj/nn-wr-r-d-DET-DET-n-f-m-w-j-wjA-n-r-a-ra-DET grouped: jnk Xnn nj wrd.n.f m wjA n ra words: jnk = I Hnn < Hnj - row (3ae-inf) - so = rower - not listed as such in back of book QUESTION what are the rules for making a noun out of a verb? nj = negating particle wrd.n.f To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.9 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:14:11 -0600 18.9 aHa.n TA.n.f jAAt nt jzr wAD r.f aHa.n aAg.n.f Hr at.f nbt jm.s Then he took (up) a branch of green tamarisk against him and then pounded upon each of his limbs with it. aHa.n = "then", introductory word used in narrative texts TA.n.f = "he took", perfect of TAj (3ae-inf.) jAAt nt jzt wAD = "a branch of green tamarisk", noun phrase, the object of the verb r.f = "against him", prepositional phrase aHa.n = "then" aAg.n.f = "he pounded", perfect of aAg (3-lit.) Hr at.f nbt = "upon each of his limbs", prepositional phrase jm.s = "with it", prepositional phrase, the feminine pronoun s refers to jAAt Here we have two sentences with verbs in the perfect, each introduced by 'aHa.n'. In each case the subject is the 3s suffix pronoun '.f',"he". Egyptian uses the perfect after 'aHa.n' in circumstances where English uses a simple past tense (§18.9). So, in the first sentences we have "then he took". Next the object is 'jAAt nt jzt wAD'. Here 'jAAT', "branch", and 'jzt', "tamarisk", are nouns in an indirect genitive construction and 'wAD', "green" is an adjective modifiying 'jzt'. Finally we have a prepositional phrase 'r.f', "against him" - where this pronoun must be different from the subject of the sentence. In the second sentence, which begins "then he pounded", the verb does not have a direct object. Instead there is are two prepositional phrases. The first is 'Hr at.f nbt', "upon each of his limbs". The second is 'jm.s', "with it", where the preposition 'm' takes the form 'jm' before suffix pronouns, and the pronoun 's' is feminine referring to the feminine noun'jAAt'. 18.9 read from right to left (aha.n T.n.f jAAt nt jsr wAd r.f, aha.n aAg.n.f hr at.f nbt jm.s) (aha.n) introductory word = then (TA.n.f) verb, 3ae-inf., perfect, 3MS = he took [verb and subject] (jAAt) noun = branch [object] QUESTION: (nt) I had trouble with this - what is it? (jsr) noun = tamarisk (wAd) adj-verb, 3-lit., = green, blue-green (r.f) preposition + 3MS suffix pronoun = to him Then he took a branch, (aha.n) -introductory word = then (aAg.n.f) verb, 3-lit., prefect, 3MS = he pounded or he thrashed (hr) preposition = upon, on (jm.s) preposition + suffix pronoun = with it then he pounded on his every limb with it. 18.9 Transliteration: aHa.n TA.n.f jAAt nt jsr wAD r.f aHa.n aAg.n.f Hr at.f nbt jm.s Translation: Then he took a branch of green tamarisk-wood to him; then he pounded on each of his limbs with it. aHa.n = then - introductory word TAj - verb 3ae-inf = take TA.n.f perfect = took + 3ms subject jAAt = branch - noun nt = of - indirect genitive jzr = tamerisk - noun wAD=green - adjective-verb 3-lit r.f = to - preposition + 3 ms aHa.n = then - introductory word aAg.n.f = pound - verb 3-lit, perfect = pounded + 3ms Hr = on - preposition at.f limb - noun + 3ms nbt = every - adjective jm.s = with - preposition + 3FS - it Perfect as past tense (18.9) 18.9 read right to left aHa.n TA.n.f jAAt nt jsr wAD r.f, aHa.n aAg.n.f Hr at.f nbt jm.s Then he took a branch of green tamarisk wood, then he pounded his every limb with it. aHa.n introductory word then TA.n.f he took jAAt noun branch nt jsr Is this tamarisk wood? wAD adjective-verb 3-lit green r.f aHa.n introductory word then aAg.n.f verb 3-lit he pounded Hr at.f nbt his every limb jm.s with it ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.12 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:24:25 -0600 18.12 jst grt xa.n Hm.f m (n)swt m Hwn nfr jp.n.f Dt.f km.n.f rnpt 18 ... nj pH.n.tw.f m zxz Now, when his incarnation appeared as king, as a beautiful youth, having collected himself and completed 18 years ... he could not be caught in running. jst = "when", particle marking a subordinate clause grt = "now, moreover", enclitic particle xa.n = "appeared", perfect of xaj (3ae-inf.) Hm.f = "his incarnation", subject of xa.n m nswt = "as king" m Hwn nfr = "as a beautiful youth" jp.n.f = "he had collected", perfect of jp (2-lit) Dt.f = "himself", object of jp.n.f km.n.f = "he had completed", perfect of km (2-lit) rnpt 18 = "18 years", object of km nj pH.n.tw.f = "he could not be caught", negated passive perfect of ph (2-lit) m zxz = "in running" There are several verbs in this exercise, all in the perfect. The first clause begins with two particles. The enclitic particle 'grt' comes second in Egyptian, but is usually the first word in translation. 'jst' marks a clause as subordinate. Although unmarked subordinate clauses always come after the main clause, a marked clause can come before the main clause (§12.18). The verb 'xa.n' has a nominal subject 'Hm.f', "his incarnation". This is followed by two prepositional phrases 'm nswt', "as king" and 'm Hwn nfr', "as a beautiful youth". This gives us "when his incarnation appeared as king, as a beautiful youth". The next two clauses are "jp.n.f Dt.f" and 'km.n.f rnpt 18' are unmarked clauses subordinate to the first clause. The perfect in such clauses commonly denotes prior circumstance (§18.11). Possible translations are "after he had collected himself" or "having collected himself" and "after he had completed 18 years" or "having completed himself", etc. (It is also possible that these clauses describe actions after he appeared as king, but there is no compelling reason for interpreting them in this way.) In the final clause in fact, the main clause of the sentence the verb has been made passive by the suffix 'tw' (§18.6). It is also negated by 'nj'. The negated perfect conveys inability (§18.14). Although often translated in English by the present tense, in this case the context requires a past tense: "he could not be caught" (cf. §18.14, last example). Transliteration: jst grt xa.n Hm.f m (n)swt m Hwn nfr jp.n.f Dt.f km.n.f rnpt 18 nj pH.n.tw.f m zxz Translation: Now when his incarnation appeared as King as a fine youth having collected himself and completed 18 years, he could not be caught when running. jst = proclitic particle (16.6.5) used to mark a clause grt = moreover/now - enclitic particle (16.7.10) xa.n (xaj = appear - verb 3ae-inf) xa.n = appeared, perfect Hm.f = incarnation + 3ms m = as - preposition Hwn= youth - noun nfr = fine - adjective-verb 3-lit jp.n.f (verb 3-lit = collect) perfect + 3ms = he collected Dt.f = self - noun + 3ms = himself km.n.f = complete - verb 2-lit, perfect + 3ms = he completed rnpt 18 = year 18 - noun nj - negative particle + pH = catch verb-2 lit pH.n caught + .tw passive perfect + 3ms = he could not be caught (negative perfect (18.17 + perfect with suffix tw 18.6) ************************************************ 18.12 ORIENTATION: horizontal, left to right, normal TRANSLITERATION: M17-S29-X1-W11:D21:X1-N28:D36:N35-U36-A42-I9-G17-M23-X1-A42-G17-V28- M42:N35-A17-F35-M17-Q3:Y1-N35:I9-I10&X1&Z1-I9:I6-G17-Y1:N35:I9-M4- X1:V20-Z1*Z1*Z1*Z1:Z1*Z1*Z1*Z1- .. D35:F22-D54:N35-X1&G43-I9-G17-S29- Aa1-S29-D54- M17-S29 X1- j-s-t W11:D21:X1 g:r:t N28:D36:N35 xa:a(complement):n U36-A42-I9 Hm-{ Det. KING}-f G17 m M23-X1-A42 nswt-t(complement)-{ Det. KING} G17m V28-M42:N35-A17 H-wn:n(complement)-{ Det. CHILD, YOUNG} F35 nfr M17-Q3:Y1-N35:I9 j-p:{ Det WRITING, ABSTRACT, CONCEPTS}-n:f I10&X1&Z1-I9 D&t&{ Used as ideogr of signs meant to be read as ideograms rather than phonograms}-f I6-G17-Y1:N35:I9 km-m(complement)-{ Det WRITING, ABSTRACT, CONCEPTS}:n:f M4-X1:V20-Z1*Z1*Z1*Z1:Z1*Z1*Z1*Z1 rnpt-t(complement):10- 1*1*1*1:1*1*1*1 .. D35 nj F22-D54:N35-X1&G43-I9 pH-{ Det MOTION}:n-t&w-f G17 m S29-Aa1-S29-D54 s-x-s-{ Det MOTION} jst grt xa.n Hm.f m nswt m Hwn nfr jp.n.f Dt.f km.n.f rnpt 18 .nj ph.n.tw.f m sxs VOCABULARY: jst - proclitic particle grt - enclitic particle xaj - verb, 3ai - "appear" Hm - noun,m - "Incarnation" f - suffix pronoun, 3 sing,m m - preposition nswt - noun,m - "king" Hwn - noun,m "youth" nfr - adj - "good, beautiful" jp - verb, 2 lit - "allot, assign" Dt - noun, m - "body, self" jp Dt = "collect oneself" km - verb, 2 lit - "complete" rnpt - noun, f - "year" nj - negative particle pH - verb, 2 lit - "reach, catch, attack" sxs = zxs - verb, 3 lit- "run" GRAMMAR: jst - marks a clause as dependent (16.6.5) grt - "moreover" xa.n Hm.f - perfect form of xa, subject is Hm m nswt - prepositional phrase, m of acquired status m Hwn nfr - another prepositional phrase, m of acquired status, the adjective nfr following and agreeing with its noun. jp.n.f - perfect form Dt.f - noun + suffix, direct genitive km.n.f - perfect form rnpt - noun used adverbially as an expression of time nj ph.n.tw.f - perfect passive, with negative denying action, ability, or necessity m sxs - prepositional phrase used adverbially, m + infinitive indicates concomitant action TRANSLATION: "Moreover, His Incarnation appeared as a king and as a beautiful youth. He had composed himself as if he were an 18 year old . He cannot be caught when running." Allen notes that this is a description of the king as an athlete. QUESTION ABOUT CONTEXT Probably in the sed festival? ************************************************ 18.12 (read left to right) jst grt xa.n Hm.f m (n)swt m Hwn nfr, jp.n.f Dt.f, km.n.f rnpt 18... nj pH.n.tw.f m sxs Then, moreover, his incarnation arose as a king of beautiful youth, collected himself, completed 18 years ...He could not be caught in running. jst - introductory particle marking the clause as dependent grt - "then, moreover" enclitic particle xa.n - perfect of the 3ae-inf. verb xaj "arise" with omitted subject pronoun Hm.f - "his incarnation" subject of the perfect xa.n m - preposition, introducting a phrase used adverbially (n)swt - king m Hwn nfr - second prepositional phrase "of beautiful youth" modifies (n)swt jp.n.f Dt.f - perfect of the 2-lit. verb 'jp' "allot assign" with masc. singular subject pronoun suffix. 'Dt.f' is"his self" the object of the verb. The dictionary entry for 'jp' says 'jp Dt' has the meaning "collect" so this is "He collected himself" km.n.f - perfect of the 2-lit. verb 'jm' "complete" with masc. singular suffix pronoun as subject rnpt 18 - 18 years nj - negative particle pH.n.tw.f - passive of the verb 'pH' "reach, attack, catch" passive construction, with the impersonal pronoun .tw as the subject and the 1MS suffic pronoun .f as object. m sHs - prepositional phrase "in running" with the infinitive of the 3-lit. verb sHs. This passage consists of several sentences. The first is introduced by the relative marker 'jst'. This is supposed to make the clause dependent, I thought on previous statements not seen here, but Allen translates this as "when his incarnation arose..." making it a clause relative to the action after the elipsis. QUESTION: I don't see how this is correct based on the text of sect. 16.6.5. Am I missing something? It is certainly a clearer translation. The final sentence after the elipsis is a negated perfect construction (section 18.14) negating action or ability, usually translated in the present tense QUESTION: (perhaps this is another reason for Allen's "when"?) It also uses a passive construction (sect. 18.6). The subject is the impersonal pronoun '.tw' and the object is given afterward by the suffix pronoun '.f'. So the meaning is "One could not catch him" or "He could not be caught". This is modified by and adverbial prepositional phrase 'm sHs' "in running." When the king was a young and beautiful 18 year old, no one could catch him in running. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.10 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:16:03 -0600 18.10 jw jb.f gp.(w) mj z(j) wnm.n.f kAw nw nht jw = proclitic particle jb.f = noun + suffix pronoun = his mind gp = verb 2-lit = cloud up gp = root or base stem and could be any verb form up to S17. However, the only one that would make sense is the stative, therefore: gp.(w) = was clouded up jw jb.f gp.(w) = his mind was clouded up mj = preposition = like z(j) = noun = man wnm = verb 3-lit = eat wnm.n.f = perfect form of verb + suffix pronoun = he had eaten mj z(j) wnm.n.f = like a man who had eaten kAw = noun = fruits nw = indirect genitive = of nht = noun = sycamore kAw nw nht = the fruits of the sycamore jw jb.f gp.(w) mj z(j) wnm.n.f kAw nw nht = his mind was clouded up, like a man who had eaten the fruits of the sycamore 18.10 jw jb.f gp(w) mj z(j) wmn.n.f kAw nw nht (For a short sentence, there sure is a lot of grammar in it!) Basic structure: stative verb in the main clause; perfect verb in a relative clause. 1. Main clause jb - heart (or mind, to the Egyptian way of thinking) jb.f - his heart gp (2-lit) - verb meaning 'to cloud up' gp.w - 3rd person masculine singular stative. The stative shows the result of a completed action, or the expression of a state. jb.f gp.w - his mind is clouded. (That is, as a result of some action, his mind is now in a clouded state.) jw jb.f gp.w - same translation, nothing new, but the particle 'jw' introduces the verbal phrase. jw jb.f gp.w mj z(j) - his mind is clouded like a man 2. The next clause (a relative clause) 'describes the hypothetical man that the subject is like: the subject of the sentence is like A MAN WHO HAS EATEN THE FRUIT OF THE SYCAMORE TREE. Relative clauses can be divided into 2 camps those that are marked by the xxxxx 'ntj', and those that don't have this word. This clause is unmarked. The second thing to notice is that the antecedent ('a man') is not definite or particular. It's not referring to a specific individual, but rather to ANY man who is foolish enough to eat the fruit of a sycamore tree. SO....given those two facts, we can apply the rule that Allen sets out in section 18.12; the perfect is used in unmarked relative clauses after an undefined antecedent. (Whew!) So, now that we understand the underlying grammar, we can build up the clause: wnm (3-lit) - to eat wnm.n - perfect form of the verb wnm.n.f - he who has eaten/he who ate. (Remember, the perfect of a transitive verb denotes completed action AND expresses past time.) wnm.n.f kAw - he who has eaten the fruit wnm.n.f kAw nw nht - he who has eaten the fruit of the sycamore tree. ************************************************ 18.10 transliteration: jw jb.f gp.(w) mj z(j) wnm.n.f kAw nw nht translation: His mind is clouded like a man who has eaten the fruits of the sycamore The main clause of this sentence contains a SUBJECT-stative construction. It starts off with the proclitic particle 'jw'. This is then followed by the subject 'jb.f', "his mind". The subject is then followed by the stative of the 2-lit. verb 'gp' which means "cloud up". The stative suffix is not written, but from the gender (masculine) and number (singular) of the subject 'jb', the stative suffix is 'w'. 'gp.w' is modified by the prepositional phrase 'mj zj wnm.n.f kAw nw nht'. The object of the preposition 'mj' ("like") is 'zj wnm.n.f kAw nw nht', which consists of the noun 'zj' ("man") modified by the unmarked relative clause 'wnm.n.f kAw nw gp'. The clause 'wnm.n.f kAw nw nht' has a verbal predicate where the verb is in the perfect. This is 'wnm.n' from the 3-lit. verb 'wnm' ("eat"); the perfect of a triliteral verb is formed from the base stem with the suffix 'n' attached. The 3MS suffix pronoun 'f' is the subject of the clause; this refers to the same thing as the antecedent 'zj', so this is a direct relative clause. The object of the verb is 'kAw nw nht'. 'kAw' is a plural noun meaning "fruits". This is connected in an indirect genitive with 'nht' meaning "sycamore"; since 'kAw' is plural, the plural form, 'nw', of the genitive adjective is used. We thus have that 'zj wnm.n.f kAw nw nht' means "a man who has eaten the fruits of the sycamore". 18.10 jw jb=f gp(.w) mj zj wnm.n=f kAw nw nht jw proclitic particle, serves to assert that a statement is true from the speaker's point of view or with respect to another statement jb=f his mind gp (verb 2-lit) cloud up, here 3MS stative mj like zj man wnm (verb 3-lit) eat, here 3MS perfect kAw fruits nw of (indirect genetive, A is plural) nht sycamore His mind is clouded like (that of) a man, who has eaten fruits of a sycamore ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:51:35 -0800 From: To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Re: follow up question on form of "dj.f" Hi everyone: A follow up question as to the verb form of "dj.f" when the phrase appears after "Dd-mdw jn [name]".: I understand that "dj.f" is likely subjunctive, but this still leaves us with at least two very distinct possible translations, and I would like to learn which one is correct. They are as follows: 1) "Words to be recited by N, so that N may give offerings..." [In this translation, the words to be recited by N have to be found elsewhere. The problem is, in some instances there appears to be no other incantations written on the artifact for N to recite.] 2) Words to be recited by N: "May N give offerings..." [If this translation is correct, N is being asked to recite the words starting with "dj.f". Of course, N would not literally say "May N give offerings...", but might say "May offerings be given..." etc.] Would anyone be willing to clarify this point for me? Thanks again for taking the time to read my post. Sincerely, John Corridan ============================================================================== From: "Nick Mills" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.12 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:51:06 -0000 Although Allen omits to say so in §16.6.5, he did point out in in §12.8 that a marked adverb clause can come before the main clause. As far as I know, this use of 'jsT' is not uncommon. > -----Original Message----- > From: KMOTC > Sent: 14 November 2006 04:24 > To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.12 > The first is introduced by the relative marker 'jst'. > This is supposed to make the clause dependent, > I thought on previous statements not seen here, > but Allen translates this as "when his incarnation arose..." > making it a clause relative to the action after the elipsis. > > QUESTION: > > I don't see how this is correct based on the text of sect. 16.6.5. > > Am I missing something? > It is certainly a clearer translation. > ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.14 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:11:21 -0600 18.14 gm.n sw wpwtjw Hr wAt pH.n.sn sw r tr n xAwj Point of grammar illustrated: Use of the perfect of a transitive verb to express an action in the past. There are actually 2 independent sentences here. They both use the perfect, and they both have a pronoun as the object. Sentence #1 gmj - to find gm.n - perfect form, 'found' gm.n wpwtjw - Nominal subject: the messengers found. (See Allen 18.4; the verb in the perfect comes before the subject.) Now we need them to find someone or something: gm.n sw wpwtjw - the messengers found HIM. (See Allen 18.4; when the object is a pronoun, the dependent form is used.) Hr wAt - on the road. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Sentence #2 pH - to reach, catch pH.n.sn - perfect form with the 3rd person plural suffix - THEY reached/caught. pH.n.sn sw - they reached HIM. Finally, the prepositional phrase acts as an adverb, telling WHEN they found him... tr - time r tr - at the time r tr n xAwj - at (the time of) dusk. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment: Usually the perfect-expressing-past-time is preceded by an introductory word or particle. But this is not mandatory; these two sentences begin with the perfect form of the verb, without any introduction (Allen 18.9). ************************************************ 18.14 transliteration: gm.n sw wpwtjw Hr wAt pH.n.sn sw r tr n xAwj translation: The messengers found him on the road; they reached him at (the time of) dusk There are two independent clauses here, both of which have verbal predicates involving the perfect. The first clause is 'gm.n sw wpwtjw Hr wAt'. Without any introductory words or particles, it starts off immediately with the verb. This is 'gm.n', which is the perfect of the 3ae-inf. verb 'gmj' which means "find". As a 3ae-inf. verb, the perfect is formed using the base stem. The subject of the clause is 'wpwtjw', which means "messengers". The direct object is the 3MS dependent pronoun 'sw'; the object precedes the subject here because the subject is a noun while the object is a pronoun. The last part of the sentence is the prepositional phrase 'Hr wAt,' which means "on the road". There are no contextual clues (either from surrounding text or from introductory words or particles) here to suggest a preference in translation using the past perfect versus the simple past; a translation using the past perfect seems quite reasonable in light of the second clause (even more so if the second clause had begun with 'aHa.n'). In any case, Allen translates using the simple past; this gives the translation "the messengers found him on the road." The second clause is 'pH.n.sn sw r tr n xAwj'. Like the first clause, this one has no introductory words or proclitic particles, and it starts off with 'pH.n.sn'. 'pH.n' is the perfect of the 2-lit. verb 'pH', "reach, catch"; the perfect is formed from the base stem with the suffix 'n' attached. The 3PL suffix pronoun 'sn' is the subject of the clause. The object of the verb is the 3MS dependent pronoun 'sw'. The last part of the clause is the prepositional phrase 'r tr n xAwj'. 'tr' is a noun meaning "time, season". This is connected in an indirect genitive with 'xAwj' which means "dusk". Thus, 'r tr n xAwj' means "at the time of dusk". Putting the pieces together, the second clause translates to "they reached him at the time of dusk". My inclination is to simply shorten this to "they reached him at dusk"; it's less literal, but it sounds better. 18.14 glyphs: gm-m-n-sw-w-wp-p-w-tjw-jw-pl.sign-Hr-wA-A-t-DET-pH-DET-n-s-n- pl.sign-sw-w-r-t-r-DET-Det-n-xA-A-w-pl.sign-DET grouped: gm.n sw wpwtjw Hr wAt pH.n.sn sw r tr n xAwj words: gm.n To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 18.13 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:00:19 -0600 18.13 aHa.n dpt tf jj.t(j) ... aHa.n.j Sm.kw rdj.n.(j) wj Hr xt qA sjA.n.j ntjw m Xnw.s Then that boat came ... then I went and placed myself in a tall tree because I had recognised those who were inside it. aHa.n = "then" dpt tf = "that boat" jj.t(j) = "came", stative 3fs aHa.n.j = "then I" Sm.kw = "went". stative 1s rdj.n.j = "I placed" wj = "me / myself", 1s dependent pronoun, object of rdj.n.j Hr xt qA = "in a tall tree" sjA.n.j = "I had recognised" ntjw = "those who", relative adjective Xnw.s = "inside it" This exercise uses a mixture of stative and perfect verbs. The intransitive verbs are in a subject-stative construction and the transitive verbs are in the perfect (§18.9). The first clause begins with 'aHa.n', "then", which can be used with both the subject-stative (§17.6) and the perfect (§18.9) when describing action in the past. In this clause we have a subject-stative construction with theintransitive verb 'jj', "to come". The subject is 'dpt tf', "that boat"; It precedes the verb 'jj.t(j)', with a 3fs stative ending. The second clause also begins with 'aHa.n' followed by another subject-stative construction. This time the subject is the suffix pronoun'.j', which is attached to 'aHa.n' and the verb is 'Sm.kw', "I went". Again this is an intransitive verb. This is followed by the perfect of the transitive verb 'rdj' with an unwritten 1s suffix pronoun as subject. The object is the 1s dependent pronoun 'wj'. This is completed by the prepositional phrase 'Hr xt qA', "in a tall tree". So this reads "I placed myself in a tall tree". This is not describing action prior to the previous phrase. In a similar manner to the last example of §18.11 it is translated: "I went and I placed ...". The final clause has another verb in the perfect, 'sjA.n.j', "I recognised". The object is the relative clause 'ntjw Xnw.s', "those who were inside it"(§12.4). The context suggests this is a clause of prior circumstance that conveys causality (§18.11, 3rd example). 18.13 read from right to left (aha.n dpt tf jj.t(j).....aha.n.j Sm.kw, rdj.n.j wj hr Xt qA, sjA.n.j ntjw m hnw.s) (aha.n) introductory word = then (dpt) noun = boat (tf) demonstrative pronoun FS = this/that (jj.tj) verb, stative 3FS, = it came Then that boat came (aha.n.j) introductory word +1S suffix pronoun = then I (Sm.kw) verb, stative 1S, 3ae-inf., = went then I went (and) (rdj.n.j) verb, 1S, perfect, 3-lit., = I recognized (wj) dependent pronoun 1S = I, me, my, myself (hr) preposition = upon (ht) noun = tree (qA) adjective = tall, high I put myself on a tall tree (sjA.n.j) verb, 1S, perfect, 3-lit., = I recognized (ntjw) relative adjective 2M Pl., = those (m) along with (hnw.s ) = inside I recognized those inside it 18.13 aHa.n dpwt tf jj.t(j) ... aHa.n=j Sm.kw rdj.n(=j) wj Hr xt qA = sjA.n=j ntjw m Xnm=s aHa.n then dpwt boat tf demonstrative pronoun FS, 'that' jj.t(j) 3FS stative of an irregular verb 'to come' Sm.kw 1S stative of a verb Smj (3ae-inf) 'go, walk), I went rdj.n(=j) 1S perfect of an irregular verb 'to give, put, cause' wj myself Hr upon xt tree qA high sjA.n=j 1S perfect of a verb (3-lit) sjA 'recognise' ntjw relative adjective 'who, which', plural m in Xnm=s inside it Then the boat came... Then I went and put myself on a high tree and recognized those inside it [the boat] ============================================================================== From: "msv" To: Subject: AEL Is anybody there ? Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:15:20 -0000 It seems ages since anyone talked about translating another text...........is anybody interested in starting a text ? By now the 'Allen' group should be more than able to join in. Does anyone have a suggestion of a short text to get this group going again ?? mark V ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: New Text to Translate Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:54:44 -0600 Hey Mark V, I'm not actually sure the Allen Study Group is ready for text translation just yet. (even our Egyptlish text project---Peter Linentail--has fallen by the wayside due to time constraints and folks not being up to it just yet) We seem to keep ourselves pretty busy just getting the homework problems done every week ( : Give us a bit longer, I think we need to finish Allen and then maybe even do some review before we start translating a text. Any other takers? best, Karen ============================================================================== From: "msv" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: New Text to Translate Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:32:03 -0000 Karen, Thanks for replying. Perhaps the group would like to suggest something for the rest of us to do. Maybe a text that 'Allen' refers to in his book ? mark v ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 08:36:06 -0800 (PST) From: Donald Boozer Subject: Re: AEL Re: New Text to Translate To: Ancient Egyptian Language List I would agree with Karen. Even as a homework volunteer in the Allen Study Group, I don't feel qualified yet to start translation of texts. I find great pleasure in being able to understand a little of some of the photographs of inscriptions I see in books. However, with only a few of the verb chapters in Allen covered, I feel I could get lost very quickly in trying to understand an entire text. This would be my only grievance with Allen so far: that he doesn't include longer passages in the Exercises. This being said, I look forward to working on a full text after we finish Allen. ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:55:46 +1100 (EST) From: Christine Mair Subject: Re: AEL Re: New Text to Translate To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Karen, Personally, I am really struggling with Allen - just trying to keep my head above water but doing the homework does make me try at least. There are texts and texts though, if we started off simple maybe or one or two lines a week. Anyway thats just my opinion. Christine ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 15:07:55 +0100 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL JSesh version 2.3.6 Hello, Version 2.3.6 of JSesh is available from http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/JSesh/download/ The most notable change is the addition of a SVG export module, which can be used to export your JSesh texts to inkscape, for instance (I would be very interested to know if adobe illustrator can read them, too). This is very interesting for professional uses, as inkscape can itself export to formats used by professionnal typesetters, like EPS or adobe illustrator (with the later, beware of page formats). Archives for JSesh versions can be found at http://sourceforge.net/projects/jsesh/ regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Euverte Vincent" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Re: New Text to Translate Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 15:37:20 +0100 Dear AEL members, I always appreciated the seriousness of your work on the Allen Glyphstudy Collection. It represents a huge amount of common efforts to bring a high added value to the original texts. Looking ahead, you appear to seek for new challenges, new texts to analyze and to translate, ... We (the Rosette project) are a group of (currently french-speaking) amateurs in egyptology, and we have a very similar goal. We built a Web-based application which can assist in the text analysis, and more important, is able to store original texts with multiple translations in several languages. I wonder if there may be some room for commonality and synergy here. We have a lot of source documents, still not interpreted, waiting for the good will of a translator. Typically, they are original photos from the British Museum and from le Louvre, and many pictures taken all across Egypt. They all are available in high resolution, often with some indications on the source (material, period, current location, ...). Looking forward your insights on this proposal, Best regards, Vincent Euverte Site perso : http://vincent.euverte.free.fr/ Application Rosette : http://projetrosette.info/ Forum projet Rosette : http://66456.aceboard.fr/ ==============================================================================