From: "Bob Myers" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Ipuwer and Ff2 (V49A) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 18:45:05 -0500 > This sign was introduced by Gardiner in his article on the transcription > of hieratic for encoding the hieratic ligature between Sn:n. It's probably > one of the few signs which is not a real hieroglyph, as the corresponding > hieroglyph, V49, has a rather different bottom part (and was too > "ptolemaic"). > > The latest versions of winglyph have introduced the code V49A for the same > sign, but it wasn't in the original Manuel de Codage. The code Ff2 was > given by Gardiner for his fonts. > > Regards, > > S. Rosmorduc > ______________ Thanks, so exceedingly much! When I came across V49 in _First Steps in Egyptian_, I should have realized that it was a combination of V7 and V9, then looked on the V menu where JSesh has included it in the menu. Dr. Brigatti's dictionary program allows a student to scroll through the extended list with great facility, but I still managed to miss it. Gratefully, Bob ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.28 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:18:49 -0500 17.28 tw.j DA.kw n.sn r wSd st tw.j = I (S10.5 - subject form of the personal pronoun) DAj = verb 3ae-inf = cross (the river), ferry DA.kw = verb + stative suffix = had crossed n.sn = preposition + suffix pronoun = to them tw.j DA.kw n.sn = I had crossed over to them (presumably it is `crossed over' rather than just `crossed' because it makes more sense) r wSd = verb 3-lit = address, question = infinitive = to address/addressing r+ infinitive = action yet to happen (S15.2) r wSd = in order to address st = dependent pronoun 3N = it (S5.4 `st' is used for the singular or plural of nouns not referring to living beings) tw.j DA.kw n.sn r wSd st I had crossed over to them in order to address it (Allen translates as `I crossed over' rather than `I had crossed over' but I do not see how this fits in with the stative expressing a state of being) 17.28 tw.j DA.kw n.sn r wSd st I crossed over to them in order to address it. tw.j = "I", subject pronoun DA.kw = "crossed over", stative with 1s suffix n.sn = "to them", prepositional phrase r = "to" preposition, with the infinive indicates purpose =A714.11.3 wSd = "address", infinitive st = "it", 3n dependent pronoun, the object of 'wSd' Just as in adverbial sentences, the subject-stative construction can have a subject pronoun as the subject (=A717.4, last example). Here the subject is'tw.j', "I". This type of pronoun is found in Middle Egyptian texts from Dynasty 17 onwards (=A710.5). The stative is the first person singular 'DA.kw', "crossed over". This is followed by the propositional phrase 'n.sn', "to them". The sentence concludes with an 'r' + infinitive phrase, indicating purpose (=A714.11.3). The infinitive is 'wSd', a 3-lit. verb meaning "address" or"question". The dependent pronoun 'st' is the object of the infinitive. 17.28 read right to left tw.j DA.kw n.sn r wSd st I crossed over to them in order to address it. tw.j subject pronoun 10.5 I DA verb 3ae-inf cross the river .kw stative suffix 1s n.sn 3pl suffix them r preposition 8.2.7 in order to wSd verb 3-lit address st it ********************************************************************** 17.28 (tw.j DA.kw n.sn r wSd st) (tw.j) impersonal pronoun, 2MS, + suffix pronoun 1MS (DA.kw) stative verb, 1S, 2-lit., = ferry across, cross (n.sn) preposition + suffix pronoun 3Pl., = to them (r) preposition = to (wSd) verb, 3-lit., address, question Once again, my interpretation did not exactly match Allen's. +I crossed to them to address (question) them. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.29 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:26:39 -0500 Exercise 17.29 transliteration: nn ntj aHa.(w) n.k Hr tA kmt translation: There is no one expecting you in this part of Egypt This sentence is a "nn-A" negation of existence sentence (sec. 11.4) where "A" is 'ntj aHa.w n.k Hr tA kmt'. This substantive is a direct relative clause with no antecedent (sec. 12.7); in such a situation, 'ntj' is translated by "one who", "that which", or something similar. This relative clause involves a SUBJECT-stative. The subject is 'ntj' (which makes this a direct relative clause). 'aHa.w' is a stative form from the 3-lit. verb 'aHa'; the stative stem 'aHa' is just the base stem of the verb. The stative suffix should be the 3MS 'w' in agreement with the gender (masculine) and the number (singular) of the subject 'ntj'; as per usual for the 3MS stative suffix, the suffix here is not written. In this sentence, the verb is followed by the prepositional phrase 'n.k'. Allen states that the form 'aHa n' means "wait for, expect"; here we have the 2MS suffix pronoun 'k', "you", attached to the preposition 'n'. Thus 'ntj aHa.w n.k' could be translated as "one (who is) expecting/waiting for you in this part of Egypt". 'aHa.w' is modified by the prepositional phrase 'Hr tA kmt'. Allen tells us to translate 'Hr' as "in" and 'tA' as "this part of". 'kmt' is "Egypt", so the prepositional phrase means "in this part of Egypt". Putting the pieces together, the relative clause 'ntj aHa.(w) n.k Hr tA kmt' means "one (who is) expecting you in this part of Egypt". Since this is the "A" part of a nn-A sentence of negation, the entire sentence means "There is no one (who is) expecting you in this part of Egypt". 17.29 Transliteration: nn ntj aHa.(w) n.k Hr tA kmt Translation: There is no one expecting you in this part of Egypt nn = not, no - particle ntj = who, which - relative adjective aHa - verb 3 lit - aHa n = wait for, expect aHa.(w)3MS stative suffix n.k = for - preposition + you 2ms suffix pronoun Hr = in - preposition tA = Allen translates as; this (part of)- feminine singular demonstrative pronoun kmt = Egypt - noun 17.29 (nn ntj.w aha n.k hrtA kmt) (nn) negation (ntj.w) stative verb 3MS, who exists (aha) verb, 3-lit., = stand up (n) preposition but the (aha) + (n) = expecting you (n.k) preposition + suffix pronoun (hr) preposition = in (tA) noun = land (kmt) place name) = Egypt direct genitive = He is not who is expecting you in the land of Egypt. No one exists expecting you in the land of Egypt. I see that Allen said 'in this part of Egypt,' but think 'the land of' is better. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.27 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:11:44 -0500 17.27 m.tn SwAww nw tA Hpr m xwdw words: m.tn = behold ye/look you lot SwAww - masc.pl of SwAw = outcast, renegade nw - indirect genitive for masc. pl or dual = of tA = land xpr - short form of xpr.wj - 3-lit verb = evolve, happen - they have evolved xpr m = become (evolve into) xwdw - masc.pl of adj-verb xwd = be rich (note: 3 determinatives!) so: look, (the) outcasts/renegades of (the) land have become rich/ rich-ones/rich-men example of stative - have become and so now are rich - state as a result of an action 17.27 transliteration: m.tn SwAww nw tA xpr.(wj) m xwdw translation: Look, the outcasts of the land have become rich men This sentence, which involves the SUBJECT-stative construction, starts off with the enclitic particle 'm.tn' ("Look") and indicates through the 2PL suffix pronoun 'tn' that more than once person is being addressed. The subject is the noun phrase 'SwAww nw tA'. 'SwAww' is a plural noun meaning "outcasts". This is followed by the indirect genitive 'nw tA' where the genitival adjective 'nw' has the plural form in agreement with the number of 'SwAww'. Since 'tA' means "land", 'SwAww nw tA' translates "outcasts of the land". 'xpr.(wj)' is a stative form from the 3-lit. verb 'xpr'. The stative stem 'xpr' is just the base stem of the verb. The stative suffix, which is not explicitly written, should be the 3rd person, plural form 'wj' in agreement with the number (plural) of the subject. The stative is modified by the prepositional phrase 'm xwdw'. 'xwdw' is a plural noun (one could view this as a substantivized adjective, but Allen states that all adjectives other than 'nb' are really adjectivized nouns) means "rich men". 'xpr m' means "become"; since we are dealing with the stative of an intransitive verb and the sentence starts off with 'm.tn', a translation into the present perfect is likely appropriate. Thus, '... xpr.(wj) m xwdw' could be translated "... had become rich men". 17.27 m=tn SwAww nw tA Hpr.(wj) m xwDw m=tn Look (2Pl) SwAw - an outcast, here plural nw - of (genetive) tA - land Hpr - to become, here 3Pl stative with the suffix wj omitted xwD - rich Look, the outcasts of the land have become rich. ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:10:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Seta Subject: AEL As(h) - Foreign God in Egypt: To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Greetings, Is there any information available as to what the name of the God "As(h)" meant in contexts of the Ancient Egyptians? If there are any good (English, as sadly I have no proficient second language as of yet) references any of you could suggest on both the God and the language relating to this God, please share. I would be greatly appreciative. Thank you one and all! Sincerely, ~ Katie Bidwell PS: This question is also to be posted in a broader sense on the EEF list as well. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.30 WITH EXTRA Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:28:53 -0500 17.30 (read right to left) Hmwt TAww jw.(wj) r mAA n.j "Women and Men came to see me." Hmwt - plural noun "women" TAww - plural noun "men" Together these form the subject "women and men" jw.(wj) - stative of the anom. verb "come" with the unwritten 3PL suffix to agree with the plural third person subject So we have a subject-stative construction r - preposition "to" indicates purpose or direction mAA - infinitive of the 2ae-gem. verb mAA "to see" n.j - dative with 1S suffix pronoun. As translated, this is the dative of the infinitive. If it were the dative of the subject-stative it would probably be closer to it 'jw.(wj) n.j r mAA', "came to me to look" This is the subject stative, which can be translated as a simple past tense, although there is no introductory particle. The subject is the noun phrase 'Hmwt TAww' "women and men". The prepositional phrase 'r mAA n.j' "to look at me" is adverbial, indicating the purpose for which they came. 'r' governs an infinitival predicate used as a noun clause, with mAA and its dative n.j. Literally this is "look to me", but as the entry in Allen's dictionary suggests, this can be translated instead as the transitive "see me" with the dative commuted into a direct object. Question: In the answer key, Allen gives the transliteration 'Hmwt TAw jw.(w) r mA n.j' which is different from mine on three counts. I'd believe TAw instead of TAww, because it's just the addition of plural strokes to the spelling of the singular 'TAw' in the dictionary. However, the Errata in Allen website does say 'TAww' is correct. Allen gives the stative suffix as 3MS .(w) instead of 3PL (.wj). I assume this is just a typo, but it's not listed in the Errata. Third, Allen give mA instead of mAA. Based on section 14.3.2c, it looks like this is probably actually 'mAn.j' one word. 17.30 Hmwt TAw jw.w r mA n.j Construction: Stative of an intransitive verb used to express past tense. Build-up: jwj - anomalous verb, 'come', 'return' jw.w - 3rd person plural stative 'they came' mAA - 'to see', 'to regard' jw.w r mAA - they came (in order) to see See Allen 14.11.3; 'r'+infinitive is used to express purpose. jw.w r mAA n.j - they came to see me (literally, to see 'to' me.) Hmwt - women TAw - males, men Hmwt Taw - women and men (see Allen 4.12; "conjunction is usually expressed just by one noun following the other." Hmwt TAw jw.w r mAA n.j Women and men came to see me. 17.30 transliteration: Hmt-pl.sign-TAw-pl.sign-jw-pl.sign-r-mA-n-j ie: Hmwt TAww jw.w r mA n.j words: Hmwt - fem.pl of Hmt - woman, wife TAww - m.pl of TAw/TAy - man, husband jw.w - form of jw.wj = they've come (lit: they are come) r = to, in order to, for - a purpose mA - short form of mAA = to see, infin. same as base form r mA -in order to see/look at n.j = to/for/at me so: women (and) men have come in order to see/look at me ************************************************ 17.30 Hmwt TAww jw.wj r mA n.j Hmwt = noun = women TAww = noun = men jwj = verb anom = come, return jw.wj = verb + stative suffix 3PL = had come (the plural strokes have been used here for .wj; QUESTION: this is transliterated in the answer as .w not .wj, I am not sure why). r mAA = verb 2ae gem = see, look mAA n = look at (dictionary) mA n = infinitive = to look at, looking at (S14.2.c = in the infinitive the verb mAA varies between germinated and base stems - mAA and mA) r + infinitive = describes purpose r mA n = in order to look at r mA n.j = in order to look at me Hmwt TAww jw.w r mA n.j = Women and men had come (in order) to look at me ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:41:53 +1000 From: G Watson To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Examples of handwritten hieroglyphs Sometime ago I recall seeing a web page on which someone had collated examples of handwritten hieroglyphs from a number of modern egyptologists. I have recently wanted to access this but have been unable to find it using google. If anyone could give me the link it would be much appreciated. Cheers Geoffrey Watson Brisbane, Australia ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:09:33 +0200 (CEST) From: Mic Mog Subject: Re: AEL Examples of handwritten hieroglyphs To: Ancient Egyptian Language List May be, it was this page: http://www.yare.org/languages/scripts/index.htm Michele Moglia ============================================================================== From: "Nicole B. Hansen" Subject: Re: AEL Examples of handwritten hieroglyphs To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:59:14 -0500 (CDT) Geoffrey-I believe this is what you are looking for: http://www.yare.org/languages/scripts/index.htm Nicole B. Hansen Study hieroglyphs online at http://www.glyphdoctors.com ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Examples of handwritten hieroglyphs Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:35:47 -0500 m Htp Geoffrey, Was it Brian's site? http://www.yare.org/languages/scripts/index.htm best, Karen ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY ASSIGNMENTS FOR LESSON 18 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:47:45 -0500 2006 NOVEMBER ASSIGNMENTS: LESSON 18--THE PERFECT Problems 18.1-18.7 DUE SUNDAY NOVEMBER 5 18.8-18.14 DUE SUNDAY NOVEMBER 12 18.15-18.21 DUE SUNDAY NOVEMBER 19 18.16-18.28 DUE SUNDAY NOVEMBER 26 best, Karen ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:37:17 +0100 (BST) From: ANGELA MANN Subject: AEL Query on stative translations To: Ancient Egyptian Language List In 17.6 Allen explains that stative can be used to express a past or perfect tense but, as I read it, is still expressing a completed action. This is confusing me. Using exercise 17.30 as an example, the translation is 'Women and men came to look at me'. I think this describes an ongoing action. Surely 'Women and men had come to look at me' is more in keeping with the basic priniciple of the stative - to describe a state of being/completed action? What does anyone else think? Angela ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:19:44 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Query on stative translations The status of the stative depends partly on its context. In discourse, it stresses the completion (and often the result) of the action: mk wi iy.kw : "see, I have come" (and I'm here now) But in narratives, it can be a simple counterpart of the sDm.n=f, especially for intransitive verbs which don't have non-nominal sDm.n=f. So both translations of exercice 17.30 are possible, depending on context. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:25:37 +0100 (BST) From: ANGELA MANN Subject: Re: AEL Query on stative translations To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Thanks - it all slowly starts to make sense! Angela ============================================================================== From: "Chris Bloom" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY ASSIGNMENTS FOR LESSON 18 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:22:57 -0700 Hey Karen and all: Bad news. My kids downloaded a very very nasty worm/virus on my computer and I could not get rid of it. As a result, I had to format my harddrive and start all over again. I have lost everything, including past lessons, GlyphScribe and other visual translation programs. I also lost all my bookmarks for these sites. Can anyone help get me restarted? Thanks in advance. Chris Bloom Oregon USA ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Allen GlyphStudy: FOR CHRIS--ABOUT LOST MATERIALS Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:54:13 -0500 Chris, that's terrible! Could you not have saved some things before reformatting? I have had computer disasters too but nothing quite that total. Why don't you join GlyphStudy --at yahoogroups, I have you down as an AEL only person, but at GlyphStudy you can reaquire all your links, lost programs, and other study aids like Koala's grammar charts and the worksheets. All that stuff is up over there. Really anybody studying with the Allen Study group over here should also be on GlyphStudy, since AEL cannot handle the attachments we often send --in exchanging study materials. As for the Collations, they are not up at Michele's site or on GlyphStudy yet, but you can get them back via AEL's Archives. Just do a search for ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION and that should bring them up. best, Karen PS have you started in with Allen yet ( : ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 01:02:02 +0100 (GMT Standard Time) From: "Stuart Ray Banham" To: Subject: AEL The Battle of Kadesh Hi everybody my name is Stuart and I have been slightly confused about the hieroglyphic representation of the city of Kadesh. In Budge`s Egyptian reading book he represents the first glyph as a mooring post, I don`t know the number of this glyph and can only find it in Budge`s books. Jim Loy told me it should be Aa28 and that makes a lot of sense to me, but can anyone out there give me the proper hieroglyphs for the name of the city of Kadesh. Cheers Stuart Ray Banham. ==============================================================================