From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.20 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:41:15 -0500 17.20 (read right to left) aHa.n nxAw n mfAkt mAt xr.(w) Hr mw "Then a fish-pendant of new turquoise fell in the river." aHa.n - introductory word indicating subsequent action in narrative (section 15.6) nxAw - noun, subject, "pendent" (shaped like a fish) n - preposition "of" mfAkt - "turquoise" noun, object of the preposition, glossed as a misspelling of mfkAw mAt - I couldn't find this in Allen's dictionary or Faulkner. According to the answer key it's the adjective 'mA' "new" with a feminine ending to agree with mfAkt xr.(w) - "it fell" stative of the 2-lit. verb xr "fall" with unwritten 3MS suffix Hr - preposition "upon" mw - "water", noun, object of the preposition This is a subject-stative construction, introduced by aHa.n indicating past tense. The subject is 'nxAw n mfAkt mAt' "a fish pendant of new turquoise" the predicate is the stative "it fell" modified by the adverbial prepositional phrase 'Hr mw' "upon the water" describing where it fell. Question: In section 17.4, Allen says the subjet tends to occur as close as possible to the stative, with modfiers coming after the verb. That isn't the case here with 'n mfAkt mAt'. Is this an exception, or is the a more subtle rule? 17.20 Read right to left. Hint: mfAkt = alternate form of mfkAt "turquoise" Transcription: aha.n nxAw n mfAkt mAt xr(.w) Hr mw Dissection: > aha.n = introductory word, "then." Often introduces stative when used as a past tense (but not perfect) (17.6) nxAw = "pendant (shaped like a fish)" (dictionary) n = indirect genitive, "of" > mfAkt = "turquoise" (from hint) > mAt = "new" > nxAw n mfAkt mAt = "a/the fish-shaped pendant of new turquoise." Why is this not translated "a/the newfish-shaped pendant of turquoise"? mAt modifies mfAkt notice both are feminine) not nxAw. So, it is the turquoise that is new literally, not the pendant. > xr(.w) = stative of verb 2-lit. "fall." .w is the3rd masc. singular stative suffix which is not written out in this case. The aha.n at the beginning is the clue to a stative verb. > Hr = preposition, translated "in" (8.2.10) > mw = "water" Translation: Then the fish-shaped pendant made of new turquoise fell in the water. aHa.n nxAw n mfAkt mAt xr.(w) Hr mw Construction: SUBJECT-stative of an intransitive verb used to describe action that took place in the past. Build-up: xr - intransitive verb 2-lit, 'to fall' xr.(w) - stative, 3rd person singular masculine: He/it is fallen Hr mw - prepositional phrase: upon (=into) the water nxAw - fish-shaped pendant mfAkt - turquoise mAt - new (fem. adjectival form, from the 4-weak adj-verb 'mAwj') mfAkt mAt - new turquoise A fish-shaped pendant of new turquoise is fallen into the water. The stative of INTRANSITIVE verbs is often used to express actions that took place in the past. When used in this construction, They are often introduced by a word such as 'aHa.n', which can be translated as 'Then'. 17.20 ORIENTATION: horizontal, right to left, normal TRANSLITERATION: P6-D36:N35-N35:Aa1-M12-G1-Z7-K1:N35-G17:D36-I9-G1-V31A:X1-N33:Z2-U1- G1-X1:Y1-Aa1:D21-A15-D2-Z1-N35:N35:N35 P6-D36:N35 aHa-a(complement):n N35:Aa1-M12-G1-Z7-K1 n:x(complement)-xA-A(complement)-w-{the bulti fish may be acting as a kind of determinant here} N35 n G17:D36-I9-G1-V31A:X1-N33:Z2 m:m(complment var for D38) -f-A-k:t-{ When triple, occasional substitute for plural strokes.}:{ Det in PLURAL. Also used with words plural in meaning and with false plurals ending in w or wt.} U1-G1-X1:Y1 mA-A(complement)-t:{Det CONCEPTS.} Aa1:D21-A15 x:r-{Det. FALL} D2-Z1 Hr-{ Used as ideogr of signs meant to be read as ideograms rather than phonograms} N35:N35:N35 - mw aHa.n nxAw n mfAkt mAt xr(.w) Hr mw VOCABULARY: aHa.n -verb, particle-"then" nxAw - noun, m-"pendant" (fish shaped) n -preposition mfAkt - noun, f, false plural - "turquoise", Allen notes that the word is actually mfkAt mAwj -adjective verb, 4ai- "new" xr - verb, 2lit - "fall" Hr - preposition- "in" (Allen's note) mw - noun,m - "water" GRAMMAR: aHa.n -introductory verb-particle. nxAw n mfAkt mAt - indirect genitive, introductory subject of the stative verb. QUESTION: mAt is feminine agreeing with mfAkt, but.if mAt is supposed to come from the adjective verb mAwj, then we need an explanation of a) the form (mAt) and b) how it is that the force of the verb completely disappears. The preference would be to translate this as: "a pendant, being new.". Another problem is that, according to 17.4, we should expect to see the indirect genitive after the stative. More help from Allen would be very beneficial here. xr(.w) - subject stative, masculine, agreeing with nxAw. Hr mw - prepositional phrase, indicating where the pendant fell. If we rearrange the sentence the way we want: aHa.n nxAw xr(.w) n mfAkt mA(w?)t Hr mw then Hr mw loses much of the immediacy it gets in the original where it was positioned right after the verb. TRANSLATION: Despite the grammatical difficulties, the meaning seems clear: "Then the pendant (fish shaped) of new turquoise fell into the water." ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.21 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:43:05 -0500 17.21 gm.n.f pA nxAw wAH.(w) Hr pAoyt He found that fish-pendant set on a sherd. gm.n.f = "he found", verb pA nXAw = "that fish pendant", object of the verb wAH.w = "set", stative 3ms Hr pAoyt = "on a sherd", prepositional phrase This is the same pendant as in Ex. 17.20. These exercises are from one of the stories of Papyrus Westcar. Taken out of context there is possibly more than one way of understandingthis sentence, but it is similar to the third example of =A717.19. It contains a stative without preceding subject used after the main verb 'gmj', to find. Allen says that in this case the stative usually refers to the object of the main verb. Here the main clause of this sentence is 'gm.n.f pA nXAw'. Allen gives us "he found" for 'gm.n.f' - this verb form is the subject of the next chapter. Then we have what he found 'pA nXAw', "that fish-pendant", the object of the verb. The subordinate clause 'wAH.w Hr pAoyt' tells us how or where the pendant was found an adverb clause. It was "set on a sherd". 17.21 gm.n.f pA nXAw wAH.(w) Hr pAqyt gm.n.f = he found -given by Allen pA = demonstrative pronoun = this/that nXAw = noun = pendant (shaped like a fish) wAH = verb 3-lit = set, place; add; stop; remain, last wAH.(w) = verb + stative suffix = placed Hr = preposition = on pAqyt = noun = noun = sherd gm.n.f pA nXAw wAH.(w) Hr pAqyt = He found this fish-pendant placed on a sherd 17.21 read right to left gm.n.f pA nxAw wAH(w) Hr pAqyt He found that fish pendant set on a sherd. gm.n.f he found pA demonstrative pronoun 5.8 ms that nxAw noun pendant (shaped like a fish) wAH(w) verb 3-lit set Hr preposition 8.2.10 on pAqyt noun sherd (alternate spelling for shard) 17.21 gm.n=f pA nxAw wAH.(wj) Hr pAqyt gm.n=f - he found pA - this nxAw - pendant (shape like a fish) wAH (verb 3lit) set, place, add, stop, remain, last. Here 3Pl - stative ,the ending wj is not written Hr - upon pAqyt - sherd He found this fish-shaped pendant placed upon a sherd 17.21 (gm.n.f pA nXAw wAhw hr pAqyt) (gm.n.f) Allens tells us: he found (pA) demonstrative pronoun = this/that (nXAw) noun = fish-shaped pendant (wAh.w) verb, 3-lit., set (hr) preposition = upon (pAqyt) noun = sherd =He found this/that fish-shaped pendant set upon a sherd. (It would not be setting, it would be sitting.) ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.22 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:45:04 -0500 17.22 (read right to left) gm.n.f sw sDr.(w) xr tmA "He found it lying on the mat." gm.n.f - "He found" Perfect of the 3ae-inf. verb gmj "find" with 1MS suffix pronoun as subject (glossed in the exercise) sw sDr.(w) - subject-stative construction "it was lying" 'sw' isthe 3MS dependent pronoun, sDr.(w) is the stative of the 3-lit. verb sDr "lie down, sleep" with unwritten 3MS suffix to agree with the subject. xr tmA - prepositional phrase used adverbially "on the mat" or "on a mat" sw sDr.(w) here is a subject-stative construction, and it forms a noun clause acting as the object of the perfect form gm.n.f, saying what he found. As such it follows normal word order: VSO where 'gm.n' is the verb, '.f' is the subject and the subject-stative construction 'sw sDr.(w)' is the object. Within the subject-stative the subject of the stative (not the overall sentence -the person or thing lying on the mat, not the person doing the finding) comes immediately before the stative. In the answer key, Allen give the translation as "He found him lying on a mat." QUESTION: 'sw' could refer to either a person "him" or a thing "it". I don't know if you can only tell from context; judging from the dictionary entry it may be that sDr is a verb only associated with people. Anyone know? 17.22 Transliteration: gm.n.f sw sDr.(w) Hr tmAm Translation: He found him lying on a mat gmj = find (verb 3ae-inf) gm.n.f = he found sw = him 3ms dep.pronoun sDr = lie down (verb 3-lit) .(w) Hr = on - preposition tmAm = mat - noun Stative sDr.(w) describes the state that 'the man' was in when he was found. "him" is the object of gm.n.f "he found" When the stative is used in an adverb clause after gmj "find" its subject is normally the same as the object of the verb (17.19) ********************************************************************* 17.22 gm.n.f sw sDr.(w) Hr tmAm gmj = 3ae-inf verb = find gm.n.f = he found (see hint in exercise 21) sw = dependent pronoun = him gm.n.f sw = he found him sDr = verb 3 lit = lie down, sleep sDr.(w) = verb + suffix stative = lying down, asleep Hr = preposition = upon tmAm = noun = mat sDr.(w) Hr tmAm = lying on a mat gm.n.f sw sDr.(w) Hr tmAm = he found him lying on a mat 17.22 gm.n=f sw sDr.(w) Hr tmA gm.n=f - he found sw - him (dependent 3MS pronoun) sDr (verb 3lit) lie down, spend the night, sleep. Here 3MS stative, the ending w is not written Hr - upon tmA - mat He found him lying upon a mat ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.19 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:38:52 -0500 17.19 wn.jn sxtj pn snD.(w) Then this peasant became afraid. wn.jn = "then", introductory word sxtj pn = "this peasant", the subject snD.(w) = "became afraid", stative 3ms This sentence has a subject-stative construction introduced by 'wn.jn', "then". This introductory word is usually used in narrative texts (=A715.6), and is used with the stative - usually of intransitive verbs when the stative expresses the past tense (=A7.17.6). Here the subject of the stative is 'sxtj pn', "this peasant". The stative is 'snD.w' with an unwritten 3rd person masculine singular suffix. The verb 'snD' means "to become afraid"; so translating the sentence in the past tense "Then this peasant became afraid". Or, we might say more simply "Then this peasant was afraid." 17.19 glyphs: wn-n-j-n-sxt/sxtj-t-y-j/det-p-n-snD/snd grouped: wn.jn sxtj pn snD words: wn.jn - then existed> `then'; sxtj = peasant/farmer; snD To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.4 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 13:35:54 +0100 For what it's worth, these are my thoughts on the matter. I very much suspect that there wasn't a distinction in Egyptian between the stative of transitive and intransitive verbs. The stative expresses a state which has come about as a result of the action of the verb. In the case of transitive verbs that seems to be most naturally an action performed on the subject, while in the case of intransitive verbs it is perforce an action performed by the subject. That is to say that the stative (probably) does not express a voice; it is in the English translation that we must use use either the active or passive voice. In one sense 'jn' is, of course, just another preposition. However, it does have only one very specific use, to indicate the agent of an action (when the agent is not the grammatical subject). There are probably no distinctions for other verb forms, other than the natural one that for intransitive verbs a passive meaning does not exist. However, as we shall see in Chapter 18, Egyptian has other ways of taking about the past and whether or not the stative can be used as an alternative affects how commonly these are employed. Faulkner does mark some verbs as transitive or intransitive, but only when it is necessary to avoid ambiguity. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk > [mailto:owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk]On Behalf Of Ralph Giles > Sent: 03 October 2006 07:37 > To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > Subject: Re: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.4 > > > Just a clarification question for my own understanding. In section 17.6, > Allen says this construction, with aHa.n + subject-stative to express > past test, can be used with intransitive verbs, or with transitive verbs > in the passive voice when the subject is a personal pronoun. Furthermore, > in section 13.3.4, he says the preposition 'jn' is used to indicate the > agent of a passive. > > So, from this point of view, since "get, fetch, use" are all transitive > verbs in English, to think of this as a passive construction. But is > this a real distinction in Middle Egyptian? Doesn't it make as much > sense to think of the stative as "having no voice" since it can only > express the state of its subject? Instead of giving special grammatical > weight to the prepositional phrase in 'jn' one can just think of it as > another adverbial prepositional phrase? > > Are there other cases where the transitive/intransitive distinction is > important? I've always been wary of Allen's approach of just looking at > the translation to determine transitivity, and this isn't helping. In > English dictionaries, this is given as an attribute of the word, but > it's not in Allen or Faulker's dictionaries. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.25 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:50:21 -0500 17.25 jn jw pA pr sspd.(w) Is that house prepared? jn interrogative particle jw particle pA = "this / that", demonstrative pronoun pr = "house", the subject sspd.w = "prepared", stative 3ms This is a question using the subject-stative construction. It is introduced by 'jn jw', which is the normal way of making a question out of the subject-stative. The subject is 'pA pr', "that house". This is followed by the stative 'sspd.(w)': the 3ms suffix is unwritten. The verb is transitive and it is natural to translate it with passive meaning. 17.25 jn jw pA pr sspd.(w) Is that house prepared? jn jw particles 11.11.2 is pA demonstrative pronoun that pr noun house sspd.(w) verb caus. 3-lit prepared 17.25 transliteration: jn jw pA pr sspd.(w) translation: Is this/that/the house prepared? This sentence, which involves the SUBJECT-stative construction, is marked as a question by starting with the particles 'jn jw'. The subject of the sentence is the noun phrase 'pA pr'. 'pA' is a masculine singular demonstrative pronoun which could be translated as "this", "that", or "the" depending on context. 'pr' means "house". The stative in this sentence is 'sspd.w'. The stative stem is the base stem of the caus. 3-lit. verb 'sspd', which means "prepare". The stative suffix is 'w', which is not explicitly written, in agreement with the gender (masculine) and number (singular) of the subject ('pA pr'). 17.25 jn jw pA pr sspd.(w) jn jw - indicates a question pA - this pr - house sspd - (verb caus 3-lit) prepare, here stative 3MS, the ending w is not written Is this house prepared? ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.24 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:48:43 -0500 17.24 m.k n rx.wjn smsj Look, we know causing to give birth. m.k = "Look", particle n = "we", 1pl dependent pronoun, the subject rx.wjn = "know", stative 1pl smsj = "causing to give birth" infinitive with 't' ending omitted. This is a subject-stative construction introduced by the particle 'm.k The subject is 'n': this is a dependent pronoun, because, just as in non-verbal sentences, dependent pronouns are used after 'm.k'. The stative is 'rx.wjn', with the 1st person plural suffix. The stative of 'rx' means something like "we have learned", that is the same as saying "we know" (=A717.8). Because it is active in meaning 'rx' can take a directobject. The object is 'smsj', which is a caus. 3ae inf. verb meaning "to cause to give birth". Normally the infinitive of this class of verbs has the characteristic 't' ending. Here it is not written; Allen cited this verb as an example in =A714.3.2a. ******************************************************************* 17.24 glyphs: m-a-k-n-pl.sign-r-x-det-w-j-n-pl.sign-s-ms-s-j-det grouped: m.k n rx.wjn smsj words: m.k - look/behold n = we rx.wjn - 1st person pl. form of rx = to know/recognise (lit: experience, learn about 17.8); thus in stative form: we have learned about/we are experienced in/know smsj - form of caus.3ae-inf verb = cause to give birth; some of this class lose the final -t of the infinitive; infinitive can be a .ing noun, `causing to give birth' so: look, we know/have-learned-about/experienced-in causing to give birth finally as per Allen: look, we know midwifery 17.24 Transliteration: m.k n rx.wjn smsj Translation: Look we know midwifery (lit: we know causing to give birth) m.k = Look - introductory n rx.wjn - rx - transitive verb 2-lit meaning to experience/learn about something expresses the state of knowledge = know + .wjn 1pl stative suffix = we - personal dep. pronoun; subject. smsj = cause to give birth - verb 3ae-inf; direct object denoting thing that is known. The stative of the transitive verb rx "know" always has active meaning, expressing an action performed by its subject: rx.wjn means we know (17.8) 17.24 m.k n rx.wjn smsj m.k = proclitic particle = look! n = dependent pronoun 1PL = we rx = verb 2-lit = know, learn rx.wjn = verb + stative suffix 1PL = experienced about = know (S17.8) smsj = verb caus. 3ae-inf = cause to give birth smsj = infinitive = to cause to give birth/causing to give birth (this is a special form of the infinitive - S14.3.2a) m.k n rx.wjn smsj = Look, we know how to cause to give birth = Look, we know midwifery 17.24 m=k n rx.wjn smsj m=k - Look (a proclitic particle) n - we, independent pronoun 1Pl rx. wjn - a 1Pl stative of the verb rx, to know smsj - causing to give birth, infinitive Look, we known causing to give birth (=midwifery) ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY 17.23 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:46:55 -0500 17.23 glyphs: Hmt wab det det pw n ra det det nb sAxbw jw w wr det tj m xrd w det pl.sign 3 grouped: Hmt wab-mw pw n ra nb sAxbw jwr.tj m xdrw 3 words: Hmt = wife wab = laypriest pw = was/is/will be n = of re = Ra nb = lord sAxbw = Sakhbu, a place jwr.tj < jwr = conceive, 3-lit; stative 3rd pers.fem.sing - she has conceived, therefore she is pregnant m = in/of/. jwr m = conceive/be pregnant with xdrw < xdr = son; so plural `sons' literally: she is/was a/the wife (of) a/the laypriest of Ra, lord (of) Sakhbu, she has conceived of 3 sons finally: she is the wife of a laypriest of Ra, lord of Sakhbu, (and) she-is/who-is pregnant with three sons 17.23 Read right to left. sAXbw "a city near Heliopolis" Transcription: Hmt wab pw n ra nb sAXbw jwr.tj m Xrdw 3 Dissection: Hmt = "woman, wife" wab = "laypriest" (see Essay 5) pw = A pw sentence. pw stands as close to the front of the sentence as possible. In this case, Hmt wab Is a direct genitive which cannot be split, so pw comes directly after that phrase and before n ra. n ra = indirect genitive phrase, "of Re." Thecomplete phrase is wab n ra "laypriest of Re" but the pw comes between the wab and n ra. nb sAXbw = "lord of Sakhbu," stands in apposition to ra "Re," so the complete phrase is: wab n ra nb sAXbw "laypriest of Re, lord of Sakhbu." jwr.tj = stative of jwr, verb 3-lit., "conceive." .tj is the 3rd fem. singular stative suffix. Xrdw = plural of Xrd "child." Xrdw in this case can be translated "boys" due to the A1 determinative. 3 = The final three strokes are the number three (xmtw, see 9.2). so Xrdw xmtw or Xrdw 3 is translated as "three boys." jwr.tj Xrdw 3 = a relative clause, literally "she conceived 3 boys." In this case, it can be translated as "who conceived 3 boys." Translations: She is the wife of the laypriest of Re, lord ofSakhbu, who conceived three boys. NOTES: (1) Allen translates this as "She is the wifeof a laypriest of Re, lord of Sakhbu, who is pregnant with three boys." First, defining her as the wife of "the" laypriest rather than "a" laypriest seems a viable alternative. Are there more than one laypriests of Re in the town in which this is taking place? Most likely. Possibly a better alternative is "one of the laypriests of Re," since a number of men took turns at performing these duties. (2) The verb jwr is defined in the dictionary as "conceive. QUESTION: " If we have jwr.tj Xrdw 3, does this mean she has conceived triplets? Or does this simply mean she has literally conceived three boys in the past, but not all of them survived (i.e., were one or more stillborn)? How would the ancient Egyptians know the wife of the laypriest was pregnant with three boys? Any thoughts? 17.23 Hmt wab pw n ra nb sAHbw jwr.tj m Xrdw 3 Hmt - wife wab - laypriest jwr - (verb 3lit) - conceive, Here 3FS stative Xrdw - child The first part is the 'A pw' sentence with the genitive: Hmt wab pw n ra It is the wife of a laypriest of Re, the lord of Sakhebu, who is pregnant with 3 children. Note: in Allen's translation 'pregnant with 3 boys'. QUESTION: Does the word Xrdw mean specifically male child? And despite all the Ancient Egyptian sophistication, how would they know anyway? 17.23 transliteration: Hmt wab pw n ra nb sAXbw jwr.tj m Xrdw 3 translation: She is the wife of a lay-priest of Ra, lord of Sakhbu, who is pregnant with 3 children This is a nominal sentence of the type 'A pw'. Here "A" includes a direct genitive of 'Hmt', "wife", with 'wab n ra nb sAXbw'. According to the dictionary at the back of the book, 'wab' means "lay-priest". This word is followed by the indirect genitive 'n ra'. The noun phrase 'nb sAXbw', "lord of Sakhbu", is in apposition to 'wab n ra'. The rest of the sentence is the clause 'jwr.tj m Xrdw 3', which is an unmarked, direct relative clause. The antecedent is the noun phrase 'wab n ra nb sAXbw'. This clause uses the stative of the 3-lit. verb 'jwr', which means "conceive"; the stative stem is the base stem. The stative suffix is the 'tj' in agreement with the gender (feminine) and number (singular) of 'Hmt'. The stative is used here to express the state that arises from the action of conceiving, which is being pregnant. The verb is modified by the prepositional phrase 'm Xrdw 3', "with 3 children". 17.23 (hmt wAb pw n ra nb sAhbw, jwr.tj m hrdw 3) (hmt) noun = wife (wAb) noun = lay-priest {direct genitive} (pw) demonstrative pronoun {singular since it is after the noun} =this/that (n) preposition = of (ra) noun = Re (nb) noun = lord (sAhbw) place name = Sakhbu =wife of lay-priest of Re, Lord of Sakhbu second part: (jwr.tj) stative verb, 3-lit. FS, = conceive, become pregnant (m) preposition = with (Xrdw) plural noun = children, boys =she is pregnant with three boys. QUESTION: This one confuses me in a couple of places. Where is the "is" in the first phrase? And where is the who in the second one? Why doesn't it read: The wife of the lay-priest of Re, the Lord of Sakhbu, had conceived three boys? ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.18 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:37:44 -0500 17.18 read right to left Hr.t(j) r jrt jyt Keep away from doing wrong. Hrj verb 3ae-inf go far away .t stative suffix-written before the determinative Hr.t(j) keep away (literally be far) r preposition 8.2.7 "from" something indicating separation jrt verb 3ae-inf Base+t doing jyt noun wrong 17.18 Read right to left Transcription: Hrt r jrt jyt Dissection: > Hr.t(j) = stative of 3ae-inf. Verb Hrj "go far away, become distant." This is an example of the stative used in a main clause as a wish or command. The stative commands or requests a state, whereas the imperative is used to command an action. According to 17.17.2, Hr.tj can be translated several ways: "be far!" or "you should be far." r = preposition, translated as "from" something, indicating separation (8.2.7) > jrt = infinitive form of jrj (verb 3ae-inf.) "make, do." Third weak verbs form their infinitives as base+t, therefore, "making, doing" > jyt = "wrong," spelled M18-M17-M17-X1-G37-Z2. Question: Should we consider this a collective noun in the sense of "wrong doings" or "wrong deeds"? Translation: Literal: "Be far from doing wrong." or " You should be far from doing wrong." Paraphrase: Keep away from doing wrong. 17.18 (hr.tj r jrt jyt) (hr.tj) stative verb, 3ae-inf., 2S = go far away (r) preposition = from (jrt) verb, 3ae-inf., make, do (jrt) noun = wrong Go far away from doing wrong. 17.18 transliteration: Hr.t(j) r jrt jyt translation: Be far away from doing wrong This sentence uses the stative to express a command. The stative stem here is the base stem 'Hr' of the 3ae-inf. verb 'Hrj', which means 'go far away'. Since this is a command, a 2nd person stative suffix (indicating the person addressed) should be attached; here, the suffix is the 2nd person singular '.tj'. This suffix is indicated simply by the X1 sign (flat loaf of bread); this sign appears before the verb's determinatives as is the usual case when the 2S suffix (and the 3FS suffix) is represented by just X1. Since the stative used as an imperative is to command a state, 'Hr.t(j)' is translated by "Be far away". The command is qualified by the prepositional phrase 'r jrt jyt'. ] Here 'r' is being used to mean "from" in the sense of separation (sec. 8.2.7, 5th bullet). The object of the preposition is the infinitival phrase 'jrt jyt'; 'jrt' is the infinitive of the 3ae-inf. verb 'jrj' ("do") and is formed by adding 't' to the base stem. 'jyt' means "wrong", so 'r jrt jyt' means "from doing wrong". ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 08:33:16 +0200 From: "Sa Ra DjtAnkh IrtRa" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL New version of JSesh Hi! And version 2.3.4 is available since 2006.OCT.10... :-) Be well! With love: Sa Ra DjtAnkh IrtRa http://djtankh.galltakri.org ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 15:33:02 +0100 From: Paul Tatum To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Manual de Codage Hello everyone, it's my first post to this list. I've been browsing the AEL site and the texts, trying to get acquainted. A lot of links are outdated, and I can't find a specification for manual de codage. I think I've got it worked out basically, but would like to know the details of the postioning notation, which signs use phonetic notation, etc, etc. So any pointers would be gratefully noted. TIA, Paul Tatum. ============================================================================== From: "Bob Myers" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Manual de Codage Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:55:26 -0500 Hi; The only application I know of that will export in pure MdC that can be read by all others is InScribe 2004. But, to learn MdC, itself, I find that TKSesh is the most helpful, because it gives most if not all known phonetic possibilities when you use the glyph menu to key in the glyph. Also, when you use the phonetic value, if a different glyph from the one you wanted comes up, you can hit the space bar and it will scroll through most known variations. Bob ============================================================================== From: "saqqara" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Manual de Codage Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:09:44 +0100 The original MdC documentation (in English, French and German) is given in Manual for the Encoding of Hieroglyphic Texts for Computer-input (Jan Buurman, Nicolas Grimal, Jochen Hallof, Michael Hainsworth and Dirk van der Plas, Informatique et Egyptologie 2, Paris 1988). Not yet available as an online resource. This MdC document is not entirely a rigorous specification. Also, since 1988, there have been extensions in terms of sign lists and coding syntax and functionality. Not all features of the original specification have found widespread adoption. So, in practice, there are various dialects of MdC in use. Software that supports MdC provides documentation on its use of MdC (e.g. InScribe, JSesh, MacScribe, WinGlyph) and this is probably your best first port of call for practical purposes. I'll mention that work is being done on a new specification - MdC2007 - intended to address the reality of existing multiple dialects and take into account some other developments since 1988. This will be fully documented online. Several developers of hieroglyphic software are involved in this process and I'm currently editing a draft to be published for public comment, probably before the end of the year. Bob Richmond www.saqqara.org ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 08:22:13 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Manual de Codage The most complete description of MdC that I know of on-line is at http://www.catchpenny.org/codage/ -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:01:22 +0100 From: Paul Tatum To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Re: Manual de codage Hello everybody, thank you for your replies. I fired up JSesh, and that explained most of what I wanted on the "splash page". Lovely editor, BTW. Also I found the page at http://www.catchpenny.org/codage/ which Stephen Fryer recommended to v.good. Thanks, Paul Tatum. ============================================================================== From: "Bob Myers" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Ipuwer Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 04:15:35 -0500 Hi; I was trying to make a close inspection of section 11 of the Lamentations of Ipuwer using Prof. Enmarch's paleographic study and with transcription into hieroglyphic. I can identify all of the glyphs except for the fourth one of the first line. Would it possibly be some variation of M108? It rather resembles an inverted T23, but I'm reasonably sure of the superfluity of that observation. Best regards, Bob ============================================================================== From: "raymond usher-cooper." To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Preposition/particle 'xr' Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 19:19:09 +0100 I'm sorry that I have not been able to contribute much to the list over the last few months. I've scarcely had more than a nodding acqaintance with this machine recently and have not been able to keep abreast of things at all. Now that I have a little more time I will try to catch up as far as I can and find out what I've been missing. ************************* I was scanning through Collier and Manley the other day and, although I've never noticed it before, I now find myself curious to know how they have arrived at their reading of 'before/ in front of' for the preposition/particle 'xr'.....Htp-di-nsw xr Asir. Unless I am mistaken it doesn't appear to be attested anywhere else. Are the followers of the school of C&M innocently talking rubbish when they translate the offering formula as 'an offering that the king gives before Osiris'... In Gardiner, Faulkner and Allen it is variously translated as [prep: by, with, near, under]...[part: then, and, further]. I note that in the short C&M wordlist the entry 'xr' is followed directly by ['xr' together with determinative A15 - the verb 'to fall'] and I wonder if they arrived at their reading by extrapolation from this verb. Can anyone enlighten me? Regards, Raymond Usher-Cooper. ============================================================================== From: "Bob Myers" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Ipuwer Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 04:23:11 -0500 Thanks to the new hieratic signs included in the JSesh glyph menu, I found the aforementioned symbol, designated as Ff2. ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 17:51:45 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Participle question in A.III scarab_Gilukhipa Paul Wheeler a écrit : > > In : Scarab of A.III, recording the arrival of the princess Gilukhipa [De > Buck p.67] > Sentence of my questionning : « bjAyt jnnyt n Hm=f » > > What is « jnnyt » ? > > 1/ My thinking is that it is a passive perfective due to context and the > « y » ending. But why the use of the geminate stem. Which should not be ?? > There would be two answers for this. The lasy one, would be that it's a late XVIIIth dynasty text. The other one is that the aspectual value of perfective and imperfective are definitly tricky. Malaise-Winand, Grammaire, § 845 (free translation) "... the inacomplished (imperfective) participle can be used where one would wait for the accomplished (perfective) participle, when there is an idea of *plurality* or serialization ... in one of the arguments of the verb (subject, object....) or even an idea of intensity." A nice example is "Dhwty-Htp *mri* nsw, *mrrw* niw.t=f...." There is only one king (hence the perfective participle) but many people in the town. > 2/ Why the plural strokes at the end of « jnnyt » ? > a. is it just to agree with the noun it modifies ( « bjAyt) and thus to > translate « Wonders brought to his Majesty » > b. is it a participle used as a noun : « Wonders (are) what have been > brought to his Majesty » > a. is much more likely Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 17:23:58 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Ipuwer Bob Myers a écrit : > Thanks to the new hieratic signs included in the JSesh glyph menu, I found the > aforementioned symbol, designated as Ff2. This sign was introduced by Gardiner in his article on the transcription of hieratic for encoding the hieratic ligature between Sn:n. It's probably one of the few signs which is not a real hieroglyph, as the corresponding hieroglyph, V49, has a rather different bottom part (and was too "ptolemaic"). The latest versions of winglyph have introduced the code V49A for the same sign, but it wasn't in the original Manuel de Codage. The code Ff2 was given by Gardiner for his fonts. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ==============================================================================