Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 10:04:17 -0700 From: Ralph Giles To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.2 On Wed, Sep 27, 2006 at 02:21:39PM -0500, KMOTC wrote: > 17.2 > n = dep.prn `we'; jj.n < jj.n(w) - older form of 1st per. pl. > (n) preposition = to, for > n jj.n (w) we have returned > The subject is the 1PL dependent pronoun 'n', > and it precedes the stative and follows the introductory particles. > N35:Z2 n:{Det in PLURAL} > n - dependent pronoun, 1st plural > n is the object of m.k which has verbal force: "see us". > Also serves to introduce the subject of the verb. Ok, so the 'n' in 'm.k r.f n jj.n(w)' is definitely not a preposition. I don't think it can be both the subject of the stative and the object of 'm.k' either. So I think it is in the dependent 1PL pronoun as subject on the stative, in agreement with the old ending .n(w). At the end of section 17.4, Allen says that the syntax of the subject- stative construction is essentially the same as that of adverbial sentences. Sections 10.5 and 15.4 say that only the suffix (after an introductory particle) or the dependent pronouns can be used as subjects, so we wouldn't expect anything else here. Coming at it from the other side is harder. The only direct mention of the stative as the object of a preposition (in a noun clause) is section 17.11.1, which specifies the compound preposition 'm xt'. Section 17.21.3 says only the subject-stative can occur in a noun clause, not the bare stative, but it's not clear that actually rules out a subject-stative with omitted subject in such a case, though clearly it would be rare. Occam's razor, I guess? Still trying to get the hang of all this, -r ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 19:28:27 -0600 From: "Michael W. Towns" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Ani Papyrus in Egyptian Does anyone know of a PDF or other document that can be downloaded? I am not interested in the English, just a file of the Ani Papyrus in Egyptian. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Michael W. Towns ============================================================================== From: "Marco E. Chioffi - Archeologo" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Ani Papyrus in Egyptian Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 10:00:59 +0200 Try looking for this site http://www.arcomnet.net.au/~vincent/egypt.htm Regard, MArco ============================================================================== From: "Benoit Claus" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Ani Papyrus in Egyptian Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 10:01:04 +0200 Dear Michael, You will find a presentation (photo & hieroglyphic texts) at : http://www.egyptologica.be/papyrus_ani/pa_index.htm Regards, Benoit CLAUS ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 08:03:33 -0700 (PDT) From: george geoffrey conwill Subject: Re: AEL Ani Papyrus in Egyptian To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Mr. Towns, An on-going project of mine is putting a complete copy of the BOD online, using Ani as the source. The idea is to be able to print out the entire text, including illustrations and paste together. My website: http://nekhenu.tripod.com/ Pax et bonum, Geoff Conwill ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 10:06:29 +0100 Subject: AEL Questions and Translations Dear all, As the list is a little quiet at the moment, I would like to pose a few questions to ask you how you would like the list to proceed. Traditionally, the list has chosen a text to work through. The last time we voted was late 2004. The result was a tie between the Merentptah stela and pWestcar. The former has been completed by list members, and although the latter was started, interest in it seems to have waned. I wonder, then, whether it is time to take a new vote? Would there, for example, be interest in working on something from a different phase of the language than Middle Egyptian? If you feel confident that you would have the time and the inclination to work on a particular text via the list, please let us know. I've noticed that there tends to be very little response to the collations posted by the GlyphStudy group. This is work produced by a number of individuals who are working through the exercises in James Allen's Middle Egyptian. They are clearly working very hard and I know they would appreciate very much the opportunity to receive feedback from any AEL members who feel they have the experience to give it. I know many of you are very busy, but if you could find the time to scan the GlyphStudy collations for any areas of doubt expressed or questions raised, that would be great! I'd like to get an idea of how many people are following the GlyphStudy posts. If you are finding them useful, or maybe merely filing them for later reference, please drop me a note off-list to let me know. Best wishes, Mark Wilson AEL Owner ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:14:34 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL New version of JSesh Hello, I have just released JSesh 2.3.2, which should be available on sourceforge. It's not a revolution, but it contains a number of improvement and bug fixes. New features: * Improved ligature system. The font designer has now more control on the way a ligature will behave. * Much improved layout for groups with high signs and low broad signs. Those signs will tend to fill the available space, giving a better result especially in columns. * bug fix for horizontal grouping (used to destroy complex ligatures). * Moved the documentation to docbook, to solve the problem of navigation in the documentation, and to allow the creation of a pdf version thereof. * Cleaned up the extended signs. Some of them did not have the right code. * The user can now specify the encoding to use when reading or writing a MdC file. * Texts from the old Tksesh database are now included in the JSesh distribution, along with a few new ones, among which Israel Stela and the Kamose Stela. * Small improvement when including signs from a font: the same scaling is retained for all signs. * bug fixed in PDF layout: Cartouches are now aligned correctly in PDF output. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 09:16:46 -0700 From: Ralph Giles To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Questions and Translations On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 10:06:29AM +0100, Mark Wilson wrote: > I've noticed that there tends to be very little response to the collations posted by the > GlyphStudy group. This is work produced by a number of individuals who are working > through the exercises in James Allen's Middle Egyptian. They are clearly working very hard > and I know they would appreciate very much the opportunity to receive feedback from any > AEL members who feel they have the experience to give it. Indeed we would! :-) I would also add that next year, after we've finished a few more verb chapters, or perhaps the book entirely, I'm sure there will be some of us in the GlyphStudy group interested in doing a text, so if there's not sufficient interest now, I think there will be in the future. Thanks for running this excellent list, -r ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 10:03:17 -0700 From: Ralph Giles To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New version of JSesh On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 01:14:34PM +0200, ROSMORDUC Serge wrote: > I have just released JSesh 2.3.2, which should be available on sourceforge. Thanks for the new release. A question that came up on the GlyphStudy list no one was able to answer: Is there any way in MdC to explicitly mark the writing direction? In his exercises Allen preserves the writing direction of the original text and I think it would be nice to propagate this information when we make our worksheets, solutions and so on. JSesh of course has an option to set the text orientation and direction from the View menu, but this reformats the entire document and cannot be used on individual strings. If there's not a way to do it in MdC, what do you think about developing an extension? Or perhaps we could use the Unicode format characters for this? Also, I've noticed Allen formats single horizonal or small signs by them selves in a cadrat to align with the center of the text, while JSesh puts them at the bottom. It's possible to fix this with absolute positioning of course, but do you think it would be reasonable to do this automatically? Does one layout or the other more closely match historical practice? -r ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.11 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 13:03:48 -0500 17.11 HAtj nb mAX.(w) n.j Hmwt TAyw Hr a(j)aj jb nb mr.(w) n.j Every heart smouldered for me, women and men were wailing, and every heart was sick for me. HAtj nb = "every heart", noun phrase, the subject mAX.w = "was smouldering", stative 3ms n.j = "for me" Hmwt = "women" TAyw = "men" Hr ajaj = "were wailing", Hr + infinitive jb nb = "every heart", noun phrase, the subject mr.w = "was sick", stative 3ms n.j = "for me" There are three statements combined together here. The first and third have subject-stative constructions, the second is a pseudoverbal construction. The first sentence is 'HAtj nb mAX.w n.j'. The subject, which comes first, is 'HAtj nb', "every heart". (Allen's dictionary gives 'HAtj' = "heart", butin the key he translates it as "chest", possibly to show that it is a different word from 'jb' which is used later in the sentence. Another alternative might be "bosom".) Next is the verb 'mAX', "to smoulder". Because the subject comes first, this suggest that it is a stative with the 3ms suffix unwritten. This sentence ends with 'n.j', a prepositional phrase meaning "for me". So "Every heart smouldered for me". The second part is 'Hmwt TAyw Hr ajaj'. The subject is 'Hmwt TAyw', "women and men". Then there is the preposition 'Hr' and a verb 'ajaj', "to wail". Because it follows a preposition, 'ajaj' must be a verbal noun, possibly an infinitive. The verb belongs to the 4-lit. class, and verbs of this class do not have a 't' ending; so it looks like it is the infinitive. This kind of sentence, subject + 'Hr' + infinitive, is what Allen calls the pseudoverbal construction (Chapter 15). The preposition 'Hr' followed by the infinitive describes action in progress (=A715.2). So "Women and men were wailing". The third part is exactly like the first. The subject which comes first is the noun phrase 'jb nb', "every heart". The stative verb is 'mr.w', and again the 3ms stative suffix is unwritten. This is followed by 'n.j', "for me", just as in the first part. The verb 'mr' is an adjective verb and the stative describes a quality of the subject (=A717.7). So "Every heart was sick for me". The second statement uses a different construction, because it describes an action of its subject. The other two statements describe the state of their subjects. 17.11 Please forgive me on this one. We all know the transliteration, so I'm not bothering to write it here. I have looked at this one till I am turning blue and just can't get it. ARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH !!! 17.11 F4:X1*Z4-F34:V30-U1-G1-F32-Q7-N35:A1-N41-X1*B1:Z2-G47-G1-M17-M17-Z7- D53:A1*Z2-D2-Z1-D36:D36-M17-A2-F34*Z1:V30-U23-G17:D21-G37-N35:A1 F4:X1*Z4-F34 HAt:t(complement):j-{ Det in HAtj "heart"} :V30 nb U1-G1-F32-Q7 mA-A{complement}-X-{ Det FIRE} N35:A1 n.j N41-X1*B1:Z2 Hm-t:{ Det. FEMALE}-{ Det in PLURAL} G47-G1-M17-M17-Z7-D53:A1*Z2 TA-A(complement)-j-j-w-{Det MALE}:{ Determinative MAN}*{ Det in PLURAL} D2-Z1 Hr-{ Used as ideogr of signs meant to be read as ideograms rather than phonograms, for example: Hr "face" but also the preposition Hr "upon"} D36:D36-M17-A1 a:a-j-( Det. SPEAK, THINK, EAT, DRINK} F34*Z1 HAtj*{ Used as ideogr of signs meant to be read as ideograms rather than phonograms} V30 nb U23-G17:D21-G37 mr-m{complement}:r(complement}-{ Det SMALL, BAD} N35:A1 n.j HAtj nb mAX(.w) n.j Hmwt TAyw Hr a(j)aj jb nb mr(.w) n.j VOCABULARY: HAtj - noun, m - "heart" nb - adjective - "every" mAX - verb, 3 lit - "smoulder" n - preposition j - suffix pronoun, 1 sing Hmt - noun, f - "woman" TAj - noun, m - "man" Hr - preposition ajaj - verb, 4 lit - "wail" mr - verb, 2lit - "sick, painful" GRAMMAR: HAtj nb mAX(.w) subject-stative n.j prepositional phrase Hmwt TAyw Hr ajaj adverbial clause - "while, when woman and men ." jb nb mr(.w) subject-stative n.j prepositional phrase TRANSLATION: "Every heart smoulders for me, while women and men are wailing, every heart is sick for me." ************************************************************************ 17.11 read right to left HAtj nb mAX(w) n.j Hmwt TAyw Hr a(j)a jb nb mn(w) n.j Every chest smoldered for me, women and men were wailing, and every heart was sick for me. HAtj noun chest nb every mAX(w) smouldered n.j for me Hmwt women TAyw men Hr a(j)a were wailing jb heart nb every mr.(w) was sick n.j for me 17.11 Transliteration: HAtj nb mAX.(w) n.j Hmwt TAyw Hr a(j)aj jb nb mr.(w) n.j Translation: Every chest smoldered for me, women and men were wailing and every heart was sick for me. HAtj = chest - noun nb = every - adjective mAX.(w).n.j - verb 3-lit + 3ms stative suffix = smouldered for me Expression of state (17.5) Hmwt = women - noun TAyw = men - noun a(j)aj = wailing - verb 3-lit nb= every - adjective ib = heart - noun mr.(w) n.j adjective-verb 2-lit + 3 ms stative suffix = was sick for stative of an adjective verb describes a quality of its subject (17.7). ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.10 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:58:17 -0500 17.10 (read right to left) jwt pw jr.n.f n.j aHa.kw "What he did was to come to me as I waited." jwt - infinitive of the anomolous verb 'jw', "come, return" pw - demonstrative jr.n.f - perfect of the 3ae-inf. verb 'jrj' "do, make" with 3MS suffix pronoun for subject n.j - dative "to me, for me" aHa.kw - stative of the 3-lit. verb 'aHa' "wait" glossed So literally we have, "Coming is he did to me I waited." We need to understand the grammar to make sense of this. QUESTION/COMMENT Unfortunately, I just didn't get this one. Working backwards from the key, what about this: The sentence is an A pw B sentence. The subject A is the the infinite 'jwt' or "coming". The predicate B is the verb phrase'jr.n.f n.j' acting as an unmarked noun clause. So this is, "Coming is (what) he did to me." This is modified by an adverb clause 'aHa.kw' consisting of the subject-stative "I waited". Since this places a conditionon the meaning of the main clause, we can translate it as "while I waited" or "while I was waiting." So together we have "Coming was what he did to me while I waited." It's more natural in English to so "Coming to me was what he did while I waited." ************************************************************************ 17.10 read right to left jwt pw jr.n.f n.j aHa.kw What he did was to come to me as I waited. jwt anomalous verb to come jr.n.f noun plus suffix pronoun he did jwt pw jr.n.f A pw B what he did was to come n.j to me aHa verb 3-lit wait .kw stative suffix aHa.kw I waited ****************************************************** 17.10 glyphs: jw-w-t-p-w-jrj-n-f-n-j/det-aHa-a-det-k-w-det grouped: jwt pw jr.n.f n.j aHa.kw words: jwt = infin. of jwj = to come/return; pw = it is/was/will be; jr.n.f < jrj = do/make - prob. unmet perfect - so `he has done/he did' n.j = for/to me; aHa.kw - stative of aHa = to wait, so `I is/was/will be waiting' analysis: this is an example of the `sDm pw jr.n.f' (what he did was to hear) construction seen in 14.14.3, where sDm > jwt - so: what he did was to come; followed by n.j `to me' and an unmarked relative clause = a verb in the stative that is relative only by virtue of its context ie `what he did was . as I was waiting/waited, while I was waiting, because I was waiting/waited, etc' finally as per Allen: what he did was to come to me as I waited 17.10 Transliteration: jwt pw jr.n.f n.ju aHa.kw Translation: What he did was to come to me as I waited. jwt = to come - verb anom jr.n.f = what he did n.j = to me - preposition aHa.kw = wait - intransitive verb + .kw 1s stative suffix = as I waited jwt pw jr.n.f is an sDm pw jr.n.f construction meaning what he did was to come. This is an A pw b nominal sentence 17.10 ORIENTATION: horizontal, right to left, normal TRANSLITERATION: D54-G43:X1-Q3-G43-D4:N35:I9-N35:A1-P6-D36:D54-V31:Z7-A1 D54-G43:X1 {Phonogr jw in forms of the verb jwj "come"}-w (complement):t Q3-G43 p-w D4:N35:I9 jr:n:f N35:A1 n:j -P6-D36:D54-V31:Z7-A1 a(complement)-aHa:a(complement):{ Det MOTION}- k:w-{ Determinative MAN; also in first singular pronouns jnk, wj, .kw/kj.} jwt pw jr.n.f n.j aHa.kw VOCABULARY: jwj - verb, anom - "come" pw - domonstrative pronoun jrj - verb 3ai - "do" n - preposition j - suffix pronoun, 1sing aHa - verb, 3lit - "wait" (Allen's note) .kw - stative suffix, 1st sing GRAMMAR: jwt pw jr.n.f is a sDm pw jr.n.f construction (14.4.3) "What he did was .". jwt is the infinitive of jwj. n.j prepositional phrase aHa.kw unmarked adverbial clause, "while I was waiting" TRANSLATION: "What he did was to come while I was waiting." ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.9 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:53:43 -0500 17.9 read from right to left (Xr hm kmt nfr.t(j) n ntt.s rX.t(j) rd.f) (Xr) proclitic particle = then (hm) enclitic particle, indicates this clause is an additional statement = and, also, moreover (kmt) proper name = Egypt (nfr.t(j)) adjective/verb. 3FS stative = good, happy, beautiful (n) preposition = because (ntt.s) this one confuses me ??? (rX.t(j)) verb, stative, 2S = know (rd.f) from allen = he flourishes +And then Egypt must be happy because she knows he flourishes QUESTION/COMMENT There is a lot here I don't quite understand 17.9 xr Hm kmt nfr.t(j) n ntt.s rx.t(j) rd.f QUESTION/COMMENT (I struggled with this one....if I goofed, please let me know.) Build-up: kmt - Egypt nfr - adjective verb meaning 'to be good/happy'. Or alternately, 'to BECOME good / happy'. nfr.t(j) - 3 sing fem stative form. Something (turns out to be the land of Egypt) is in a happy state (as a result of a prior action or condition). xr (see Allen 16.6.3). This is a statement auxiliary, indicating that its clause is the inevitable result of the action in another clause. xr kmt nfr.t(j) - And thus Egypt is in a happy state. And so Egypt is in a happy state. Hm - enclitic particle indicating that its clause is an additional statement to one logically prior. Probably not required in the translation. ---------------------------------------------------- rx.t(j) - she/it knows. Note that 'rx' (to know), despite being a transitive verb, retains its active meaning in the stative. (Allen 17.8) rd.j - 3rd masc sing form of the verb 'to flourish'. He flourishes. rd.j ("he flourishes") seems to be the object of the verb 'rx.t(j)' ("she knows"). QUESTION Have we seen this construction before (finite verb form as the object of a transitive verb)? Or is it a noun clause..."she knows [THAT HE FLOURISHES]? I'm stuck here. When it is used in a noun clause, the SUBJECT-stative is normally introduced by 'ntt'. (See 12.13.2) So we've got a noun clause with a stative INSIDE IT... ntt rx.t(j) rd.f - "The fact that she knows he flourishes" The preposition 'n' joins with the 'ntt' to give the sense of 'because'. n ntt rx.t(j) rd.f - "Because she knows that he flourishes" (I'm stretching here). The stative likes to have an additional subject (nominal or pronominal) go with it. So the suffix pronoun for the 3rd fem singular is tacked onto the introductory particle 'ntt', giving 'ntt.s'. n ntt.s rx.t(j) rd.f - "Because she knows that he flourishes" -------------------------------------------------------------- SO.... putting both halves together, you get: Because she (=Egypt) knows he flourishes, she (will of necessity) be in a happy state." *************************************** 17.9 glyphs: x-r-Hm-m-a-km-m-t-DET-f-r-t-n-n-t-t-s-r-H-t-DET-r-d-rwD-DET-DET-f grouped: xr Hma kmt nfr.t n ntt.s rH.t rd.f words: Hr = then; Hma - variant spelling of enclitic part. Hm = and, also, moreover kmt = Egypt; nfr.t = nfr.tj = stative of nfr = be good/perfect/beautiful/happy; n ntt = for, because < from the fact that, ntt.s = that she/it - precedes clause where subject is a pers.pron (here `she/it' for Egypt (fem)); rH.t = rH.tj = she/it knows (stative form with present meaning) rd.f = he flourishes (given) literally: then moreover (= and then) Egypt is/has-become/will-be good/happy because it knows he flourishes Now Hr = is a statement auxiliary, indicating inevitable result of the action described - so `is good/happy' > `must be good/happy', because of .. finally: and then Egypt must be happy, because it knows he flourishes 17.9 transliteration: xr Hm kmt nfr.t(j) n ntt.s rx.t(j) rd.f translation: And then Egypt must be happy because it knows he flourishes This sentence starts off with the proclitic particle 'xr' followed by the enclitic particle 'Hm'. 'xr' indicates the inevitable result of an action described in a preceding clause, and it is frequently translated by "then". The other particle 'Hm' indicates that the clause in which it occurs is an additional statement to one that has been made earlier; it is frequently translated by "and, also, moreover". Next we have a SUBJECT-stative construction. The subject is the noun 'kmt', "Egypt". We then have the stative 'nfr.t(j)'. 'nfr' is the stative stem of the 3-lit adjective verb 'nfr' which means "good, beautiful, happy". This has the stative suffix 'tj' attached; this suffix is third-person feminine singular in agreement with the gender and number of the subject 'kmt'. The sentence is modified by a prepositional phrase starting with the preposition 'n'. The object of this preposition is the noun clause 'ntt.s rx.t(j) rd.f' which is marked by 'ntt'; the combination 'n ntt' means "because". This clause contains a SUBJECT-stative construction; the subject is the suffix pronoun 's' attached to 'ntt', and rx.t(j)' is the stative. 's' is the 3FS suffix pronoun, and it refers to the same thing as 'kmt' ("Egypt") which is a feminine, singular noun. The stative stem 'rx' is from the biliteral verb 'rx'. Attached to this stem is the 3FS stative stem 'tj', which agrees in gender and number with the expressed subject 's'. The stative of 'rx' is generally translated into English by "know" with active meaning, and so 'n ntt.s rx.tj' translates to "because it knows/knew". The object of the verb is 'rd.f' which Allen tells us to translate as "he flourishes". 17.9 (read right to left) xr Hm kmt nfr.t(j) n ntt.s rx.t(j) rd.f "And then Egypt became good for she knows (that) he flourishes." xr - proclitic particle "then" (sect. 16.6.13) indicates an inevitable result Hm - enclitic particle "and" (sect. 16.7.8) kmt - feminine noun "Egypt", subject nft.t(j) - stative of the 3-lit. adjective-verb, 3FS suffix "became/is good" n - preposition ntt.s - particle marking a noun clause with 3FS suffix pronoun as subject rx.t(j) - stative of the 2-lit verb rx "know" with 3FS rd.f - "He flourises," verb form as an unmarked noun clause, object of the stative, glossed by Allen. The subject pronouns and suffixes for everything but the 'rd.f' are feminine singular third person, referring to the noun 'kmt'. In a noun phrase as the object of a preposition, 'n ntt' can be translated as 'because' as well as for (section 12.13.2, from the answer key). In the answer key, Allen translates the stative nfr.t(j) as "must be happy" to convey the sense of inevitablity from the particle 'xr'. ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 10:06:25 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , ROSMORDUC Serge Subject: Re: AEL New version of JSesh Ralph Giles a écrit : > > On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 01:14:34PM +0200, ROSMORDUC Serge wrote: > > >> I have just released JSesh 2.3.2, which should be available on sourceforge. >> > > Thanks for the new release. A question that came up on the GlyphStudy > list no one was able to answer: Is there any way in MdC to explicitly > mark the writing direction? In his exercises Allen preserves the writing > direction of the original text and I think it would be nice to propagate > this information when we make our worksheets, solutions and so on. > > There were a number of suggestions, but the MdC itself does not include anything on the subject. In 1994, Hans van den Berg proposed a system, but as far as I know, winglyph does not implement it, and simply saves the text orientation in a specific header. The problem of text orientation is tricky, especially if you want to be able to mix them. I have the project of introducing a new construct in JSesh which will allow one to have multiple zones with explicit orientation. (The operator will be called "zone", and there are already a few lines of codes in JSesh about it, but it's not supported yet). > Also, I've noticed Allen formats single horizonal or small signs by them > selves in a cadrat to align with the center of the text, while JSesh > puts them at the bottom. It's possible to fix this with absolute > positioning of course, but do you think it would be reasonable to do > this automatically? Does one layout or the other more closely match > historical practice? > > There is no consistent historical practice on the subject. I feel Hieroglyphic texts tend to center signs, but when transcribing hieratic, signs are usually put on the base line. As most of the texts I work with are originally hieratic texts, I chose the latter option. Now, you have the option "center small signs" in the "View" menu. Of course, the selected option should probably be saved along with the text. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 23:37:03 -0700 From: Ralph Giles To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.4 On Wed, Sep 27, 2006 at 02:27:34PM -0500, KMOTC wrote: > 17.4 (aHa.n.(j) jn.kw r jw pn jn wAw n wAD-wr) > [...] > (jn.kw) transitive verb from 3ae-inf., = fetch, get, use - stative 1S > Basic construction: stative with a transitive verb, > showingthe result of a prior action performed on its subject. > [...] > jn - preposition indicating the agent > wAw n wAD-wr - wave of the sea. > with the stative is used for past action, > jn - "by" marks the agent of the passive verb > wAw - "a wave" Just a clarification question for my own understanding. In section 17.6, Allen says this construction, with aHa.n + subject-stative to express past test, can be used with intransitive verbs, or with transitive verbs in the passive voice when the subject is a personal pronoun. Furthermore, in section 13.3.4, he says the preposition 'jn' is used to indicate the agent of a passive. So, from this point of view, since "get, fetch, use" are all transitive verbs in English, to think of this as a passive construction. But is this a real distinction in Middle Egyptian? Doesn't it make as much sense to think of the stative as "having no voice" since it can only express the state of its subject? Instead of giving special grammatical weight to the prepositional phrase in 'jn' one can just think of it as another adverbial prepositional phrase? Are there other cases where the transitive/intransitive distinction is important? I've always been wary of Allen's approach of just looking at the translation to determine transitivity, and this isn't helping. In English dictionaries, this is given as an attribute of the word, but it's not in Allen or Faulker's dictionaries. -r ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.14 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 18:43:56 -0500 17.14 sd.kw m pAqt gs.kw m tpt sDr.kw Hr Hnkyt sd = verb 2-lit = get dressed (in a kilt) zd.kw = verb + stative suffix 1S zd.kw = I am dressed/ I was dressed m = preposition = in pAqt = noun = fine linen sd.kw m pAqt = I was dressed in fine linen gs = verb 2-lit = get anointed, anoint gs.kw = verb + stative suffix 1S = I was anointed m = preposition = with tpt = noun = first class oil gs.kw m tpt = I was anointed with first class oil sDr = verb 3-lit = lie down, spend the night sDr.kw = I lay down/I slept Hr = preposition = on Hnkyt = bed sDr.kw Hr Hnkyt = I slept on a bed (As the speaker is presumably describing himself when dead, then 'I lay/laid down' is not appropriate; personally I think 'I laid' or 'I was lying' is just as good as 'I = slept' sd.kw m pAqt gs.kw m tpt sDr.kw Hr Hnkyt = I was dressed in fine linen, I was anointed with first class oil, I was lying on a bed *************************************************************************= **************************************************************** Allen Exercise 17.14 sd.kw m pAqt, gs.kw m tpt, sDr.kw Hr Hnkyt "I was dressed in fine linen, I was anointed with first class oil, I slept upon the bed." This consists of three subject-stative sentences (or main clauses) with intransitive verbs, expressing the past tense as in section 17.6. Each is refined by a simple adverbial prepositional phrase. sd.kw - stative of the 2-lit. verb sd "get dressed (in a kilt) with 1st person singular suffix as subject. m pAqt - adverbial prepositional phrase. "in fine linen" gs.kw - stative of the 2-lit. verb gs "become anointed" with 1S suffix m tpt - adverbial prepositional phrase "with first class oil". Note the somewhat tricky spelling on tpt, with D1 followed by both the Z1 literal stroke and Q3 as a phonetic complement. sDr.kw - stative of the 3-lit. verb sDr "lie down, sleep" with 1S suffix as subject Hr Hnkyt - adverbial prepositional phrase "upon a bed" ************************************************************************* 17.14 O34:D46-S28-D36:V31A-G43-A1-G17-H2-N29:X1*Z5-S28:Z2-W12:O34-D36:V31A- G43-A1-G17-D1-Z1-Q3:X1-F34:Z2-O34:M36:D21-A55:V31A-G43-A1-D2-Z1-V28- M2:N35-V31A:M17*M17-X1:D41-S28-Z1 O34:D46-S28-D36:V31A-G43-A1 s:d-{ Det CLOTH}-{Var for D39 or D40?}:k- w-{ Determinative MAN; also in first singular pronouns jnk, wj, .kw/kj.} G17 m H2-N29:X1*Z5-S28:Z2 { Phonog pAq}-q(complement):t(complement)*{ Replacement for complex or dangerous signs}-{ Det CLOTH}:{ Det in PLURAL} W12:O34-D36:V31A-G43-A1 g:s-{ var for D37-44}:k-w-{ Determinative MAN; also in first singular pronouns jnk, wj, .kw/kj.} G17 m D1-Z1-Q3:X1-F34:Z2 tp- Used as ideogr of signs meant to be read as ideograms rather than phonograms-p(complement)-t:{ Det in HAtj "heart"}:{ Also used with words plural in meaning and with false plurals ending in w or wt.} O34:M36:D21-A55:V31A-G43-A1 s:Dr:r(complement)- Det. LIE, DEAD. Ideogram for sDr "lie down":k-w-{ Determinative MAN; also in first singular pronouns jnk, wj, .kw/kj.} D2-Z1 Hr- Used as ideogr of signs meant to be read as ideograms rather than phonograms V28-M2:N35-V31A:M17*M17-X1:D41-S28-Z1 H(complement)-Hn:n(complement)- k:j*j-t: {Det ARM and actions associated with the arm or hand }-{ Det CLOTH}- {Used as ideogr of signs meant to be read as ideograms rather than phonograms} sd.kw m pAqt gs.kw m tpt sDr.kw Hr Hnkyt VOCABULARY: sd - verb, 2 lit- "get dressed" kw - stative pronoun, 1st sing. m - preposition pAqt - noun, f - "fine linen" gs - verb, 2 lit - "get anointed, anoint" tpt - noun, f - "first class oil" sDr - verb, 3 lit - "lie down, spend the night, sleep" Hr - preposition Hnkyt - noun, f - "bed" GRAMMAR: Three straight adverbial clauses: 1) sd.kw m pAqt 2) gs.kw m tpt 3) sDr.kw Hr Hnkyt That verbs are explicit makes no difference, the pattern is still subject - prepositional phrase. In the so-called "non-verbal"adverbials, the intro particle jw may be a verb originally. The verbs, taken transitively, are passive in meaning. TRANSLATION: "I was dressed in fine linen" "I was anointed with fine oils" "I was laid upon a bed." ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.16 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 18:22:38 -0500 17.16 jw.k swt sA.t(j) m t.k tx.t(j) m H(n)qt.k But you are sated on your bread and drunk on your beer. jw introductory particle .k = "you", 2ms suffix pronoun, the subject swt = "but", enclitic particle sA.tj = "are sated", stative, 2s m = "on", preposition, in the sense of "by" t.k = "your bread", noun phrae, object of the preposition tx.tj = "are drunk", stative, 2s m = "on", preposition Hnqt.k = "your beer", noun phrase, object of the preposition This exercise is an example of a compound sentence (=A717.9). There are two subject-stative constructions with the same subject. The sentence is introduce by the particle 'jw' and the subject is '.k'. Neither is repeated before the second stative. Following the particle, 'swt', "but", the first stative is 'sA.tj', followed by the prepositional phrase 'm t.k'; the second stative is 'tx.tj', 'with the prepositional phrase 'm Hnqt.k'. The verbs 'sAj' and 'tx' mean "to become sated" and "to get drunk" respectively. The stative expresses the state resulting from those actions. Thus "you are sated" - 'm t.k', "on your bread" - and "you are drunk" - 'm Hnqt.k', "on your beer". 17.16 jw=k swt sA.t(j) m t=k tx.t(j) m Hnqt=k swt (particle) - but sA.t(j) - 2S stative of the 3ae-inf verb sAj - to become sated t - bread tx.t(j) - 2S stative of the 2lit verb tx - to get drunk Hnqt - beer But you have become sated with your bread [and] drunk with your beer 17.16 Read right to left Transcription: jw.k swt sA.t(j) m t.k tx.t(j) m x(n)qt.k Dissection: > jw.k = particle introducing subject of the stative > swt = "but" (16.7.9), occurs in 2nd position > sA.t(j) = "become sated" (verb 3ae-inf.) (stative) > m t.k = "on your bread" > tx.t(j) = "get drunk" (verb 2-lit.) (stative) > m x(n)qt.k = "on your beer" This is a compound sentence. At its core is: jw.k sA.tj tx.tj = You are sated (and) drunk. Translation: But you are sated on your bread (and) drunk on your beer. But you have become sated (and) drunk on your beer. 17.16 (read right to left) jw.k swt sA.t(j) m t.k tx.t(j) m H(n)qt.k "But you became sated on your bread, you got drunk on your beer." jw.k - introductory particle marking temporary action, with 2MS suffix pronoun as subject swt - enclitic particle translated as "but" sA.t(j) - stative of the 3ae-inf. verb "sAj" "become sated", with 2MS suffix to agree with the subject m t.k - adverbial prepositional phrase "on your bread". Sometimes a loaf of bread is just a loaf of bread! tx.t(j) - stative of the 2-lit. verb tx "become drunk", with 2MS suffix. m H(n)qt.k - adverbial prepositional phrase "on your beer". These are two parallel sentences, both with the subject-stative construction. In the second sentence, the actual subject is omitted, but since the suffix agrees with the first, we can assume they are the same. Both are modified by adverbial prepositional phrases describing on what, exactly, the person addresses has become sated and drunk. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.13 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 18:20:30 -0500 17.13 m.t zA-nht jw.(w) m aAm(w) Construction: SUBJECT-stative of an intransitive verb, indicating past tense Build-up zA-nht - personal name, 'Sinuhe'. jj - anomalous verb, 'come' aAm(w) - Asiatic m.t - introductory particle, addressed to a female. jj is an anomalous (irregular) verb. It can use, as its base, both 'jw' and 'jj'. It uses 'jj' here. The 3rd person pronominal suffix for the stative - 'w' - is added to it, although it remains invisible in the writing. Usually the stative is tenseless, but with an intransitive verb, it expresses past tense. jj.(w) = he came zA-nht jj.(w) = Sinuhe came m aAm(w) - as an Asiatic. See 'm of predication', Allen 10.6. Behold - he came in the identity of / looking like an Asiatic. 17.13 transliteration: m.t zA-nht jw.(w) m aAm(w) translation: Look, Sinuhe has returned as an Asiatic This sentence is an example of the SUBJECT-stative construction. It starts off with the proclitic particle 'm.t' ("Look") which, from the 2FS suffix pronoun '.t', indicates that a woman (or some female entity) is being addressed. The particle is followed by the name 'zA-nht' ("Sinuhe"), which is the subject of this sentence. This is followed by the stative 'jw.w'. 'jw' is the stative stem of the anomalous 3ae-inf verb 'jwj', which means "come, return". The stative suffix in this case is 'w' in agreement with the gender (masculine) and number (singular) of the subject ('zA-hht', the name of a man). The verb is modified by the prepositional phrase 'm aAm(w)'. The object of the preposition is 'aAmw', which means "Asiatic". The preposition 'm' here has the meaning "as" ("in the capacity of") (sec. 8.2.3, 6th bullet). 17.13 m=t zA-nht jw.w m aAm(w) m=t - look, 2FS (=A716.6.7) jw.w - 3MS stative of jwj (irr.) to come, return m - 'as', 'in the capacity of' (=A78.2.3) aAm(w) - Asiatic Look! Sinuhet has returned as an Asiatic 17.13 m.t sA-nht jw.(w) m aAm(w) m.t = proclitic particle 2FS = Look! sA-nht = Sinuhe - given by Allen jwj = verb anomalous = come, return jw.(w) = verb (+ stative suffix 3MS) = has come/returned m = preposition = as aAm(w) = noun = Asiatic - given by Allen, but in the dictionary m.t sA-nht jw.(w) m aAm(w) = Look, Sinuhe has returned as an Asiatic ***************************************************** 17.13 (read right to left) m.t zA-nht jw.(w) m aAm(w) "Behold, Sunihe returned as an asiatic." m.t - introductory intensifier. Note the 2FS suffix pronoun; this sentence is spoken to a woman. zA-nht - personal name, subject, glossed as "Sinuhe" jw.(w) - stative of the anom. verb jwj, "come, return", with unwritten 3MS suffix to match the subject m aAm(w) - adverbial prepositional phrase "as an Asiatic" This is a simple subject-stative construction expressing past tense. The verb is intransitive, but modified by the adverbial prepositional phrase. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.17 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 13:23:37 -0500 17.17 transliteration: m Dd grg jw.k wr.t(j) translation: Don't tell a lie when you are great The main clause of this sentence contains a negative imperative. This negative imperative is constructed using the imperative 'm' of the verb 'jmj' followed by the negatival complement 'Dd' of the 2-lit verb 'Dd' ("say, tell, speak"). Thus, 'm Dd' means "Don't tell/say". The object of 'Dd' is 'grg', which means "lie"; hence, 'm Dd grg' means "Don't tell a lie". The phrase 'jw.k wr.t(j)' is an unmarked adverb clause, and is an example of the SUBJECT-stative construction. It starts off with the proclitic particle 'jw' to which the subject, the 2MS suffix pronoun 'k', is attached. The stative here is 'wr.tj'. 'wr' is the stative stem of the 2ae-gem. verb 'wrr' meaning "great"; the stem in this case is the base stem. The stative suffix is the 2S 'tj' which agrees in number (singular) and case (2nd person) with the subject 'k'. So, 'jw.k wr.tj' means "you are great". As an adverb clause, its function in this sentence is to give the circumstances of the main clause: when you are great, you shouldn't lie (possibly because being "great" means being powerful, and the powerful don't need to lie?). 17.17 m Dd grg jw.k wr.t(j) m = negation of the imperative = don't Dd = tell (negatival complement) grg = noun = lie m Dd grg = don't tell a lie jw.k = particle + suffix pronoun = when you (S10.3 - indicates a statement that is true only in specific circumstances) wrr = 2ae-gem verb = be great wr.t(j) = verb + stative suffix 2S/3FS = have become great m Dd grg jw.k wr.t(j) = Don't tell a lie when you have become great 17.17 Read right to left Transcription: m Dd grg jw.k wr.t(j) Dissection: > m = negation of the imperative (16.4) > Dd = (verb 2-lit.) "speak, say, tell" > grg = "lie" (noun) > m Dd grg = "Don't tell a lie." > jw.k = subject of the stative introduced with a particle > wr.t(j) = stative of "become great" > jw.k wr.tj = this is an unmarked adverb clause(17.12, 12.17) = "When you have become great" or "for you became great" or "for you have become great." Translations (alternatives): (literally) Do not tell a lie for you have become, and are now, great. Do not tell a lie when you have become great. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.15 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 13:16:57 -0500 17.15 jw.j grt rx.kw nb n spAt tn Analysis: rx - to know. This is a transitive verb (you know SOMETHING), and as such, should have a passive meaning in the stative. However, it keeps its transitive meaning. So with the pronominal suffix for the 1st person singular .kw added, it means "I know" Like the majority of sentences with adverbial predicates and stative constructions, the clause with the stative verbin it usually takes an introductory particle. In this sentence, we see our old friend 'jw' with the 1st person singular suffix pronoun tacked on. jw.j rx.kw - I know (someone or something). nb n spAt tn - the lord/owner of this estate. Last element is the enclitic particle 'grt'. This is used to signal that a new line of thought or additional statement is coming. Translation: Now, I know the owner of this estate. 17.15 jw=j grt rx=kw nb n spAt tn grt (particle) - moreover rx=kw - 1s stative of the verb rx, 'to know'. Always translated as an active (=A717.8). nb - lord, owner n - 'of', indirect genitive spAt - 'estate' tn - 'this', refers to the preceding word 'estate' I know, moreover, the lord (owner) of this estate 17.15 jw.j grt rx.kw nb n spAt tn jw.j = particle + suffix pronoun = I (16.61 - asserts statement is true) grt = enclitic particle = now, moreover, but (because this is preceded by jw it more likely = moreover) rx = verb 2-lit = know rx.kw = verb + stative suffix 1S = I am experienced (S17.8 - stative of rx always expresses an action performed by its subject) - .kw agrees with the subject = j = I jw.j grt rx.kw = moreover, I am experienced = moreover, I know nb = noun = lord, master, owner n = preposition = of spat = estate tn = demonstrative pronoun = this, that nb n spAt tn = the owner of this estate jw.j grt rx.kw nb n spAt tn = Moreover, I know the owner of this estate ************************************************************** 17.15 Read right to left Transcription: jw.j grt rx.kw nb n spAt tn Dissection: > jw.j = the subject of the stative is normally introduced using a particle when it is a pronoun (17.4). In this case, .j the first person singular. > grt = "moreover" (16.7.10) > rx.kw = stative of rx "know" (verb 2-lit.). See17.8, stative of rx always has an ACTIVE meaning, literally meaning "experience." So, jw.j rx.kw = I know/I knew (lit., "I am experienced about..." > nb = lit., "lord" > n = indirect genitive > spAt = "estate, farm." Spelled, Aa8-X1-O49 > tn = demonstrative pronoun (5.8), "this, that" > nb n spAt tn = indirect genitive construction showing possession, lit. "lord of this/that estate." "owner of this/that estate/farm." Translation alternatives (depending on context): Moreover, I knew the owner of that estate. Moreover, I know the owner of this estate. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 17.12 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 13:09:07 -0500 17.12 ORIENTATION: horizontal M17-Z7-A1-W19-M17-O34:A1*Z1-V15:X1-Z7-A24-G17-D36:Aa1*Aa1-Z7-N2-G53- Z6:A1-O35-Z7-G37-V28-D36:F51-Z2:A1-G1-D46:Z7-D54 M17-Z7-A1 j-w-j W19-M17 mj-j(complement) O34:A1*Z1 z:{ Determinative MAN}*{ Used as ideogr of signs meant to be read as ideograms rather than phonograms} V15:X1-Z7-A24 { Phonogr jT in form of jtj "take possession"}:t-w-{ Det. FORCE, EFFORT} G17 m D36:Aa1*Aa1-Z7-N2 a:x*x-w-{ Det NIGHT} G53-Z6:A1 bA-{ Det DIE, ENEMY}-j O35-Z7-G37 { Phonogr z in zj "go away, perish"}-w-{ Det SMALL, BAD} V28-D36:F51-Z2:A1 H-a:{ Ideogr for Haw "body"}-{ Det in PLURAL}:j G1-D46:Z7-D54 A-d:w-{ Det MOTION} jw.j mj z(j) jtw m axxw bA.j zj(.w) Haw.j Ad.w VOCABULARY: jw - particle j - suffix pronoun, 1st sing mj - preposition - "like" zj - noun, m - "man" jtw - adjective, m - "overtaken" (Allen) axxw - noun, m - "nightfall" bA - noun, m - "Ba" zj - verb, 2 lit - "go" Ha - noun, m - "body", usually plural Ad - adj verb 2 lit- "be weak, listless" GRAMMAR: jw.j mj z(j) jtw m axxw - adverbial clause, subject: j, prepositional phrase: mj zj, supporting prepositional phrase: m axxw, axxw is a noun used adverbially, m locates the point in time. bA.j zj(.w) is a subject-stative, as is Haw.j Ad.w TRANSLATION: "I am like a man overtaken at nightfall. My Ba is gone. My body is weak." 17.12 jw.j mj z(j) jtw m axxw, bA.j zj.w, Haw.j Ad.w Analysis: 3 distinct sentences rolled into one. Part 1: z(j) - man z(j) jtw - noun followed by adjective: a man overtaken. axxw - nightfall Although 'm' usually means 'in', it can also express thesense of the English 'with / by / through'. jw.j z(j) jtw m axxw - I'm a man overtaken by nightfall. jw.j mj z(j) jtw m axxw - I'm LIKE a man overtaken by nightfall. ------------------------------------------------------- Now, here come the statives :-) Part 2: zj - (2-lit verb) - 'to go' bA.j zj.w - My ba is gone. SUBJECT-stative construction, with the 3rd person masculine singular pronominal suffix. Part 3: Ha - body. Usually used in the plural Ha.w - body (parts) Ad - adjective verb meaning 'to be weak, listless' Haw.y Ad.w - My body (parts) are listless. Another SUBJECT-stative construction with the 3rd plural ending. The last 2 sentences express states of being, resulting from a previous action. Whatever the action was, it must have been bad, 'cause it resulted in the states of ba-being-gone, and body listlessness. Worse than the flu. 17.12 jw.j mj z(j) jtw m axxw bA.j zj.w Haw.j Ad.w I was like a man overtaken by nightfall; my ba had gone, and my body was weak. jw introductory particle .j = "I", 1s suffix pronoun, the subject mj = "like", preposition zj = "a man" jtw = "overtaken" m axxw = "by nightfall", prepostional phrase bA.j = "my ba", noun phrase, subject of zj.w zj.w = "had gone", stative 3ms Haw.j = "my body", noun phrase, subject of Ad.w Ad.w = "was weak", stative 3ms The first part of this exercise is a sentence with adverbial predicate: 'jw.j mj zj jtw m axxw'. It is followed by two subject-stative constructions: 'bA.j zj.w' and 'Haw.j Ad.w'. The subject of the first sentence, introduced by the particle 'jw', is '.j',"I" and this is followed by the prepositional phrase 'mj z(j)', "like a man" This doesn't make much sense on its own, and so the next phrase tells us what sort of man. Allen tells us 'jtw' is "overtaken" then there is 'm axxw', by darkness. Because Allen tells us this is from a story, it makes sense to translate it in the past tense. So "I was like a man overtaken by darkness". The subject of the first stative is 'bA.j', "my ba", and the verb is 'zj.w',"had gone" (or "was gone"). The subject of the second stative is 'Haw.j',"my body" and the verb is 'Ad.w'. This is an adjective verb and the stative describes a quality of the subject (=A717.7). So "my body was weak" (had become weak). 17.12 jw.j mi z(j) jtw m axxw bA.j zj.w Xaw Adw Story, so narrative will be in the past tense jw.j = particle + suffix pronoun = I was (S10.3) mi = preposition = like z(j) = noun = man jtw = overtaken m = preposition = by axxw = noun = nightfall jw.j mi z(j) jtw m = I was like a man overtaken by nightfall bA.j = noun + suffix pronoun = my ba zj = verb 2-lit go zj.w = verb + stative suffix 3MS (agrees with ba) = was gone bA.j zh.w = my ba was gone Xaw.j = noun = suffix pronoun = my body Ad = adjective-verb 2 lit = weak, listless Ad.w = verb + stative suffix 3MS (agrees with body) = was listless Xaw Adw = my body was listless jw.j mi z(j) jtw m axxw bA.j zj.w Xaw Adw = I was like a man overtaken by nightfall, my ba (was) gone, my body (was) listless 17. 12 read right to left jw.j mf z(j) jtw m axxw bA.j zj.w Haw.j Adw I was like a man overtaken by nightfall, my ba gone, my body listless. jw.j I was mj preposition 8.2.4 like z(j) noun man jtw verb 3ae-inf overtaken m by axxw noun nightfall bA.j ba zj verb 2-lit go zj.w gone Haw.j my body Ad.w listless 17.12 Transliteration: jw.j mj z(j) jtw m axxw bA.j zj.w Xaw.j Ad.w Translation: I was overtaken by nightfall, my ba gone, my body listless. jw.j proclitic particle + 1s suffix pronoun mj = like zj = man jtw = overtaken (given by Allen m = by axxw = nightfall - noun bA.j = ba - noun + .j 1s suffix pronoun xj.w go - verb 2-lit + w 3ms stative suffix Subject-stative construction as past tense (17.6) Haw.j = body - noun + 1s suffix pronoun Ad.w = adjective-verb 2-lit = listless + 3ms stative suffix Stative of an adjective verb describes a quality of its subject (17.7) ============================================================================== From: "Marco E. Chioffi - Archeologo" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Help Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 17:58:09 +0200 Cielo altoGood afternoon. I am translating the stele of Gebel Barkal and I would have necessity to consult on the subject the notes of Cumming and Barns, but I don't succeed in finding them. Could someone help me? J.W.B. Barns, Some readings and interpretations in sundry Egyptian texts, in The journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 58 159-166, 1972: B. Cumming, Egyptian Historical Records of the Later Eighteen Dynasty, Fascicole I, Aris and Philips, Warminster, 1982. Thanks in advance to all. Marco E. Chioffi ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 13:21:51 -0700 From: Ralph Giles To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Cc: ROSMORDUC Serge Subject: Re: AEL New version of JSesh On Tue, Oct 03, 2006 at 10:06:25AM +0200, ROSMORDUC Serge wrote: > There were a number of suggestions, but the MdC itself does not include > anything on the subject. In 1994, Hans van den Berg proposed a system, > but as far as I know, winglyph does not implement it, and simply saves > the text orientation in a specific header. > There is no consistent historical practice on the subject. I feel > Hieroglyphic texts tend to center signs, but when transcribing hieratic, > signs are usually put on the base line. As most of the texts I work with > are originally hieratic texts, I chose the latter option. Now, you have > the option "center small signs" in the "View" menu. Of course, the > selected option should probably be saved along with the text. Thanks for the clarification, and the pointer. I had not noticed the 'center small signs' option. It's exactly what I was looking for. > The problem of text orientation is tricky, especially if you want to be > able to mix them. I have the project of introducing a new construct in > JSesh which will allow one to have multiple zones with explicit orientation. > (The operator will be called "zone", and there are already a few lines > of codes in JSesh about it, but it's not supported yet). I am glad to hear you at least have this planned as a JSesh feature. I suppose whenever we finally get a unicode encoding for hieroglyphs, we can use the unicode mechanisms to solve this problem in that context. (Perhaps off topic) Why do you prefer a file header instead of an inline marker like $r and $b, for example? -r ==============================================================================