From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 12.5 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:59:13 -0500 12.5 read right to left (jw pn n wAD-wr rS tj gs (wj).fj m nwy) (jw) - noun = island (pn) - demonstrative pronoun = this (wAD-wr) - noun = The Great Blue-Green (rS) ? I don't know (ntj) - relative pronoun - MS = whose (gs(wj).fj) = its two sides (m) - preposition = in (nwy) - noun = waters =This island in the Great Blue-Green, whose two sides are in the waters. relative clause dependent (ntj) used as a noun? **************************************** Exercise 12.5 transliteration: jw pn n wAD-wr ntj gs(wj).fj m nwy translation: this island of the sea (Great Blue-Green) whose two sides are in waters In this exercise, we have a noun phrase modified by an indirect, relative clause. The noun phrase is 'jw pn n wAD-wr' and consists of the noun 'jw', the demonstrative pronoun 'pn', and there is an indirect genitive governed by 'n' which indicates that 'jw' ("island") is of the 'wAD-wr' ("Great Blue-Green"). The relative clause is 'ntj gs(wj).fj m nwy' and is marked by the relative adjective 'ntj'. This is in the masculine singular form because the word it modifies, 'jw', is masculine singular. This clause has an adverbial predicate; this predicate is the prepositional phrase 'm nwy'. As usual for a clause with an adverbial predicate, the subject precedes the predicate, and here the subject is 'gs(wj).fj'. The coreferent of this relative clause is the suffix pronoun '.fj' attached to 'gs(wj)', and it refers back to 'jw' to which it agrees in number (singular) and gender (masculine). According to section 5.7, the 'j' at the end of 'gs(wj).fj' is there because "the suffix pronouns themselves sometimes have an extra ending 'j' ... when added to a dual noun". Here, this 'j' after the suffix pronoun seems to be the only indication that we are dealing with a dual noun ('gs(wj)') as this not "spelt out" phonetically ('wj') or indicated by a doubled determinative. 12.5 jw pn n wAD-wr nty gs(wj).fj m nwy This island of the Great Blue-Green, whose two sides are in the waters. This is a noun phrase, "jw pn n wAD-wr" - "this island of (genitive) the Great Blue-Green," modified by an indirect relative clause marked by "nty." The subject of the relative clause is the dual masc. noun "gs(wj)" - "two sides," with 3MS suffix pronoun that "echoes" the dual ending - "fj." The adverbial predicate of the relative clause is the prepositional phrase "m nwy," - "in the waters." ************************************************************ 12.5 jw pn n wAD-wr ntj gs(wj).fj m nwy Vocabulary jw - island jw pn - this island wAD-wr - the sea (Mediterranean or Red) gs - side gs.wj - 2 sides (masc dual ending) gs.wj.f - its 2 sides (suffix pronoun for 3ms) m - preposition 'in' nwy - waters Notes to vocabulary: 1. for the final 'j' in gs(wj).fy, see Allen 5.7, where he mentions that the dual sometimes adds an extra 'j' after the personal pronoun suffix. 2. I'm amazed by the way 'nwy' is spelled! The scribe has the adze (U19) that has the sound 'nw'. This is followed by ANOTHER biliteral with the 'nw' sound - the pot (W24). So we've got 2 biliterals, each giving the 'nw' sound. On top of that, he puts a monoliteral 'n' before these two, and a monoliteral 'w' after them. Then (the icing on the cake), he finishes up with the determinative for waters. Amazing. Structure: The second part of the sentence (gs(wj).fy m nwy) is is introduced by the relative marker 'ntj', and describes the main noun. "What kind of island?" "An island whose two sides in the water." This subordinate clause is just a plain 'ol sentence with an adverbial predicate: "its two sides (are) in the water.". The 'ntj' is the relative marker, which indicates that the following clause is used to describe/limit the subject of the sentence Translation: This island of the great Blue-Green, whose 2 sides are in the waters. ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 12.4 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:55:27 -0500 12.4 it.n = i ntt m imAm=f I took that which was in his tent. Here 'ntt m imAm=f' plays the role of a noun. ************************************** 12.4 read right to left Allen's hints: jt.n.j "I took," jmAm "tent" Transcription: jtn.n.j ntt m jmAm.f Dissection: jt.n.j = "I took," spelled V15 (jT)-X1(t)-D36(determinative? TAKE?) N35(n) A1(j - 1s suffix pronoun) (from Allen's hint - we haven't studied verbs yet) ntt = relative marker (feminine) "which, who, what, that..." (12.3/4) m = preposition "in" (8.2.3) jmAm = "tent," spelled M17(j)-U1(mA)-G1(A)-G17(m)-O1(determinative: PLACE, BUILDING) .f = 3rd masculine singular suffix pronoun "his," spelled I9(f) (5.3) Translations: "I took what/who (was) in his tent." "I took that which was in his tent." "I took who was in his tent." Note: Since the relative marker ntt is the feminine form, technically this clause (ntt m jmAm.f) could refer to an object (a feminine noun) OR a female person. The subject could have taken a thing or a woman (with the sentence taken out of context). 12.4 Order: Horizontal, right to left Transliteration: V15:X1-D36:N35-A1-N35:X1:X1-G17-M17-U1-G1-G17-O1:I9 V15:X1-D36{DET - arm}:N35-A1 = j:t-{DET}:n:j N35:X1:X1 = n:t:t G17 = m M17-U1-G1-G17-O1{DET house}:I9 = jmAm.f jt.n.j ntt m jmAm.f Vocabulary from Allen: jt.n.j "I took" jmAm "tent" Vocabulary - miscellaneous ntt - relative adjective, feminine m - "in" - preposition .f - masc sing suffix pronoun Grammar: jt.n.j - verb and 1st person sing suffix pronoun ntt is a relative adjective acting as a noun, the direct object of jt. It has no antecedent but is followed by a relative clause (12.7). m jmAm.f - A relative clause "in his tent". Translation: "I took that (fem, singular or plural) which was in his tent." ******************************************** HMWK 12.4 Transliteration: jt.n.j ntt m jmAm.f Literal translation: I took what in tent his Translation: I took that which was in his tent jt.n.j = I took - verb followed by I = subject - first person masculine singular suffix personal pronoun. ntt = what - direct object, feminine form of relative adjective ntj m = preposition jmAm = tent - noun .f = his - third person masculine singular suffix personal pronoun. This sentence has no antecedent and ntt here is used as a noun meaning "that which" (12.7) ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 12.3 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:51:40 -0500 12.3 read right to left No hints from Allen Transcription: Dr ntt wr s(j) aA s(j) Dissection: Dr ntt = "since" (literally, "since that"), spelled: M36(Dr)-D21(r) N35(n)-X1(t)-X1(t) (12.13.2) wr = "great," spelled G36 (wr)-D21(r) (Ex. 6.11 & dictionary) s(j) = dependent feminine 3rd person singular pronoun, spelled S29(s). j, a weak consonant, is not spelled out here. (5.4) aA = "big, important" (adjective), spelled O29(aA)-D36(a)-G1(A)-Y1 (determinative: CONCEPTS). (dictionary) Translations: "since that it/she is great and it/she is important/big" (literal) "since she is great and important" (referring to a person) "since it is great and big" (a thing or building) Note: Why are the S29's transcribed as s(j) and not as a suffix pronoun (.s)? The subject of an adjectival sentence MUST be a dependent pronoun only (5.4). The weak consonant j is often omitted, and that is what happened in this case. So, "wr s(j)" and "aA s(j)" are two separate clauses: "It/she (is) great" and "It/she (is) important/big." 12.3 Dr ntt wr s(j) aA s(j) since (that) it is great and it is big. Dr = "since" ntt = "that" - noun clause marker wr = "great" - adjectival predicate s(j) = "it" - 3rd fs dependent pronoun, the subject of the clause aA = "big" - adjectival predicate s(j) = "it" - 3rd fs dependent pronoun, the subject of the clause This is an noun clause marked by 'ntt' used as the object of the = preposition 'Dr'. This is translated as "since" (=A712.13.2). The noun clause has two adjectival predicates in apposition. Since an adjectival sentence takes a dependent pronoun as subject, the subject of each must be 's(j)' - not the suffix pronoun '=B7s'. ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 12.1 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:51:20 -0500 12.1 sSmw pn nty wj Xr.f "This situation that I am in." This is a noun phrase, "sSmw pn" - "this situation," modified by an indirect relative clause (= used as an adjective): "nty wj Xr.f" - literally "which I am under it," with the relative marker "nty." The subject of the relative clause is "wj" - "I," and the adverbial predicate is "Xr.f" - "under it." The 3MS suffix pronoun is the co-referent. ***************************************** 12.1 sSmw pn ntj wj Xr=B7f This situation which I am in. sSmw pn = "this situation" ntj = "which", relative clause marker wj = "I", 1s dependent pronoun, the subject of the relative clause Xr=B7f = "under it" This is a noun phrase 'sSmw pn' "this situation" with a relative clause 'ntj wj Xr=B7f'. The relative clause has adverbial predicate. 'sSmw pn' is the antecedent, '=B7f' is the coreferent. Because the coreferent is not the subject of the relative clause, it is an indirect relative clause. Normally suffix pronouns are used after 'ntj' for the subject of a relative clause, but in the 1st person singular, as here, the dependent pronoun 'wj' is used (=A712.6). The relative clause describes "this situation". Translated literally it is "which I am under it.". English does not use a separate coreferent, i.e. "it", in an indirect relative clause. Also, in English one says "in" a situation not "under" it. So, putting it into good English the = translation is "This situation which I am in". ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 12.2 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:51:30 -0500 12.2 right to left jw.j qbw rmw.j n Sw I am in the cool breeze, my fish are in the sunlight. jw particle .j 1s personal pronoun I qbw noun cool breeze rmw noun fish .j 1s personal pronoun my n preposition in Sw noun sunlight This sentence contains two independent clauses. Exercise 12.2 transliteration: jw.j n qbw rmw.j n Sw First clause [jw.j n qbw] = independent jw - particle (not translated, marks nonverbal sentence) n - preposition, here means "in" (usually "of") qbw - "cool breeze" - noun with 4 determinatives "I am in the cool breeze" Second clause [rmw.j n Sw] = independent rmw.j - "my fish" (plural) n Sw - "in sunlight" "My fish are in the sunlight" We can link these two clauses by any connection. Allen uses "while" which is the most logical here. translation: "I am in the cool breeze, while my fish are in the = sunlight" 12.2 jw=B7j n qbw rmw=B7j n Sw I am in the cool breeze while my fish are in sunlight. jw introductory particle =B7j = "I" - 1st person singular suffix pronoun, the subject n qbw = "in the cool breeze" - adverbial predicate rmw=B7j = "my fish" - subject of the subsidiary clause n Sw = "in sunlight" - adverbial predicate This looks like two adverbial sentences. However, Egyptian usually starts adverbial sentences with a particle (=A710.3). So it should probably be viewed as an adverbial sentence with an unmarked subordinate clause. The main clause comes first because only a marked adverb clause can come before the main clause (=A712.18). (Both relative clause and noun clauses come after the main clause, whether they are marked or unmarked.) The main clause is an adverbial sentence with the suffix pronoun '=B7j' as subject and 'n qbw' as predicate. The subordinate clause has the same structure: the subject is 'rmw=B7j' and the adverbial predicate is 'n Sw'. It is an adverb clause because it describes the circumstances of the main clause. There are a number of ways to link the two clauses (=A712.17). Allen links them with "while"; one possible alternative is to write them as two clauses separated by a semi-colon: "I am in the cool breeze; my fish are in sunlight." ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 03:44:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Kathleen Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Mark, I am interested in working through the Shipwrecked Sailor? Kathleen Mark Todd wrote: Just for the record, I'm also more interested at this point in Hieratic. I'm not saying that I'm flawless in reading AE Hieroglyphs, but more interested in writing that is less the standard fare of political billboard propaganda (I mean this in the nicest way!) so common in royal and public inscriptions, and more in literature and lives of the common Egyptians. Plus I like that the heiratic is less telegraphic in its use of language. BTW, cudos to Stephen Fryar for his "basic hieratic primer" -- a great site! Is there room and interest from anyone on this list for working through "The Shipwrecked Sailor" on that site? Mark Todd ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:17:50 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic Mark Todd wrote: > Just for the record, I'm also more interested at this point in > Hieratic. I'm not saying that I'm flawless in reading AE Hieroglyphs, > but more interested in writing that is less the standard fare of > political billboard propaganda (I mean this in the nicest way!) so > common in royal and public inscriptions, and more in literature and > lives of the common Egyptians. Me too :_D For such "everyday" sort of writings there are two major sources, the papyri found at "Kahun" and the papyri and ostraca from Deir-el-medina. The former are in Middle Egyptian and in the style of hieratic which I address on my web site. The latter are in Late Egyptian and in Ramesside hieratic which is considerably different in style, though knowing Middle Kingdom hieratic will "give you a leg up." 'The Petrie Papyri: Hieratic Papyri from Kahun and Gurob (principally of the Middle Kingdom)' were published by F. Ll. Griffith and are available in PDF at http://library.case.edu/ksl/ecoll/books/grihie00/grihie00.html (text volume) http://library.case.edu/ksl/ecoll/books/grihie01/grihie01.html (plates volume - the image resolution is not the greatest but good enough) > BTW, cudos to Stephen Fryer for his "basic hieratic primer" -- a > great site! Thanks! Glad you like it. > Is there room and interest from anyone on this list for working > through "The Shipwrecked Sailor" on that site? Rather than start in on a major project like that (I've seen too many start out with great enthusiasm and then sort of fade after a while) it might be more worthwhile to strat out with the basic exercises to get people up to a sort of common level and then proceed with the shorter examples and other short texts. I think they will be enough of a challenge ;-) -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "rjlittlec@juno.com" Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:57:34 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Hieratic Hi Kathleen, There is not really a complete cheap or easy answer to your question about learning hieratic. Fryer=92s home page http://home.prcn.org/sfryer/Hieratic/lesson1.html. has already been mentioned. He has about 78 different hieratic signs there that will give you a good start. Next up the list, would be a book by Maria Carmela Betro. =93Hieroglyphics The writings of Ancient Egypt=94 which has about 215 basic hieratic symbols with some occasional variations on the 215. These are included as additional information for the basic Gardiner hieroglyphic sign list. The new hardback retails for 29.99 on Amazon.com though you can buy used on the same site for 8 bucks (US) on up, paying extra for shipping. It's a good book for learning things about hieroglyphs. It also has some demotic signs in it as well. Sheldon Lee Gosline wrote 3 books on late Egyptian hieratic. =93Hieratic Paleography 1: Introductory Late Egyptian=94 Not currently available on Amazon. If you can get it, this would be a good book for learning late Egyptian hieratic. He gives stroke order and clear examples of the signs. He also wrote, =93Writing Late Egyptian Hieratic, A beginner's Primer=94. Used and new from $27.99 on Amazon.com. I think the research is pretty good and he gives some good transliterations and translations, but the book is marred by the use of bitmapped hieratic signs which ruins it for me, these need to be corrected in the next edition. In a higher price range,=93Old Hieratic Paleography=94 By Hans Goedicke sells used and new on Amazon.com from $59.95. Published in 1988, it provides extra material not available at the time that Georg Moller published his =93Hieratische Palaographie=94. "Hieratische Palaographie" (four volumes included) began to be published in 1927. It's a cornerstone for learning Hieratic but is still about 178 signs short of the complete Gardiner list. If you are serious about learning Hieratic, you still must have these two books. The drawback is that =93Hieratische Palaographie=94 is going to run you about $220 from Atleest booksellers in the Netherlands. The Atleest internet address is www.atleest.com. Though you can view/download free .pdf files at the address Stephen Fryer mentions. My bias is to suggest you learn Middle Egyptian Hieratic because, it seems to me, that was used for the longest periods of Egyptian history and will give you the best grounding in what to look for in hieratic signs. I think =93formal=94 middle Egyptian hieratic is to Hieratic as the =93formal=94 King James English is to English. I would like to hear other opinions, in case I have left out relevant materials and sources. Thanks, Russell Littlecreek ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:42:59 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic Kathleen wrote: > I appreciate your response and information. Just starting out in my > studies, I also quickly realized that Heriatics was used for everyday > use. I appreciate your web site Stephen. As I move along, I will utilize > the lessons you provided. Are you willing to provide more lessons? I > have made flash cards with the Hieroglyphics/Heriatrics on one side and > the transliteration on the other to help me. Anyone interested in an > electronic copy of the flash cards, let me know and I will forward that. > At this point in my progress, I do not understand what you state > below as "a different numbering system from the current standard", but I am > sure as I move along that that concept will be better understood. Please > send the conversion chart by Michael Tilgner--perhaps an explanation on > the differences between these numbering systems would be helpful as well. The "numbering system" currently in general use is based on the classification system given by Gardiner in his _Egyptian Grammar_; it is also used by Allen in _Middle Egyptian_ and Hoch in _Middle Egyptian Grammar_. It is also used by "hieroglyphic word processors" (you might want to download the WinGlyph program from http://213.132.220.88/CCER/apps/winglyph_demo_setup.exe ). The numbering system used by Moeller was based on a similar classification, but gave sequential numbers to all the signs. > I downloaded a font for Hieroglyphics from greatscott.com, so that I > can type in hieroglyphics. Is there such a download font for Hieratics > available? If you download the WinGlyph program you will have a complete set of all the "Gardiner" signs, plus a transliteration font which I, among others, use on my Web site. No one has succeeded in creating anything similar for Hieratic. Sheldon Gosline attempted something on these lines for Late Hieratic, but my opinion is that it is far from successful. I (and others) have looked at the problem and came to the conclusion that it was not really practical, in considerable part because of the ligatures. > Anyone able to decipher the facsimile link below put out by the LDS > Church? Looks like very poorly drawn and low resolution hieroglyphics - to poor to even attempt to read. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 12.9 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:23:07 -0500 12.9 rX.n=(i) qd=k ti wi m zSi I learned of your character while I was still a nestling Here the second phrase (introduced by ti) is an adverbial clause describing circumstances under which the first clause is true. ******************************************** 12.9 Transliteration: rx.n.(j) qd.k tj wj m zSj Literatal translation: I learned your character (whilst) I in (the state of being a) nestling. Translation: I learned of your character whilst I was still a nestling rx.n.(j) = I learned of- verb followed by .j = I subject - first person masculine singular suffix personal pronoun qd.k = character - noun followed by .k = your - second person masculine singular suffix personal pronoun tj - serves to mark a clause with an adverbial predicate as an adverb clause. Related to the archaic English word Yea! wj = I - first personal singular dependent personal pronoun m = in - preposition. Used here as m of predication (whilst I was in the capacity or identity of something (10.6) allowing the noun "nestling" to function as an adverbial predicate. zSj = nestling - noun This is a nonverbal clause introduced by tj and has an adverbial predicate with a noun or a dependent pronoun (I) as subject. It describes circumstances under which the main clause is true. (12.16.2) ************************************************* 12.9 Transliteration: D21:AA21-Y1:N35-AA28-D47:W24-Y1:V31-U33-G43-M17-AA13:O34-N37:Z4-G48A D21:AA21-Y1{DET writing}:N35 = r:x-{DET}:n AA28-D47:W24-Y1:V31 = q-d:{DET = N33 in words with qd}:k U33-G43 = tj G43-M17 = wj AA13 = m :O34-N37:Z4-G48A = z-S:j rx.n.(j) qd.k tj wj m zSj Note to the transliteration: W24 is a variant of N33 which would presumably be more correct here. Gardiner shows it as N33, for example. Vocabulary from Allen: rx.n.(j) "I learned of", verb and subject qd "character", noun zSj "nestling", noun Vocabulary miscellaneous: .k 2nd sing masc suffix pronoun tj particle marking the start of a subordinate adverbial clause wj 1st sing dependent pronoun Grammar: rx.n.(j) is the verb and subject of the sentence. qd.k is the direct object of the verb rx. tj marks the start of a subordinate adverbial clause (12.16.2). Related to "yes", wj is the subject of the subordinate adverbial clause following tj (12.16.2) m is an m of predication indicating acquired status. zSj noun, object of the m of predication. The adverbial clause consists of m zSj. Translation: rx.n.(j) qd.k tj wj m zSj "I learned of your character even when I was a nestling", rendering tj as "even" putting emphasis on the extreme youth of the subject at the time of the learning. ********************************************* 12.9 rx.n.(j) qd.k, tj wj m zSj Vocabulary: rx.n.(j) - verb, 'I recognized'. qd - 'character' qd.k - your character (2 masc sg) tj - one of the grammatical markers that introduce an adverb clause wj - dependent pronoun 'I' m - preposition 'in', 'in the capacity of' zSj - nestling Note to Vocabulary: The spelling of qd threw me. I couldn't figure out what that 'nw' pot was doing in there. But then I found a note back in 6.7 that stated that the pot was not a biliteral, but a (former?) determinative. Structure 'tj' lets us know that an adverb clause is coming; an adverb clause tells use more about the circumstances surrounding the verb. Here, it gives additional information about the main verb: "I knew your character..... when? - as soon as I saw you? - when you opened your mouth? - right after you hit me with the wet noodle? No ... I knew your character when I was just a nestling. Structure notes 1. if a personal pronoun is used as the subject in the subordinate adverb clause,the Egyptians used the DEPENDENT pronoun (wj). 2. Like relative clauses, the subordinate clause is a stand-alone sentence, with a subject and a predicate. 3. Notice the 'm of predication' (see Allen 10.6). What the sense would seem to be is that I knew you WHEN I WAS IN THE STATE OF A NESTLING, that is, a temporary identification. Question: Is a bird speaking? Or is it a human speaking? I've heard people say they did something 'when they were just a pup.' Does anyone have the context for this sentence? ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLENGLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 12.10 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:27:36 -0500 12.10 read from right to left (mj dpt nn sHry jm.s) (mj) - adverb = like (dpt) - noun = boat , a feminine noun - boats are always feminine (nn) - particle = negation (sHry) - noun = pilot (jm) - preposition - used as adverb = in (.s) suffix pronoun - 3FS =she, it =like a boat with no pilot in it adverb clause with adverbial predicate Exercise 12.10 -------------- transliteration: mj dpt nn sxry jm.s translation: like a boat with no pilot in it This is a prepositional phrase begun by the preposition 'mj'. The object of the prepositional phrase is 'dpt nn sxry jm.s' which consists of the noun 'dpt' modified by the unmarked, indirect relative clause 'nn sxry jm.s'. The clause 'nn sxry jm.s' is nonverbal with an adverbial predicate. The predicate is the prepositional phrase 'jm.s' where the 'j' in 'jm' is typical when the object of the preposition 'm' is a personal pronoun (sec. 8.2.3). As usual for a clause with an adverbial predicate, the subject precedes the predicate. The subject here is 'sxry', the existence of which is negated by the particle 'nn'. Lastly, the coreferent in this relative clause is the suffix pronoun '.s' and refers back to 'dpt' to which it agrees in gender and number. 12.10 mj dpt nn sxry jm.s Vocabulary: mj - preposition, 'like' dpt - feminine noun, 'boat' sxry - masc noun, 'pilot' m - preposition, 'in' Note: see Allen, 8.2.(3). When the preposition 'm' is followed by a suffix pronoun, it takes the form 'jm'. Structure: This example contains a relative clause that further modifies or describes the antecedent 'dpt'. However, it is NOT introduced by the relative marker 'ntj'. This makes it a VIRTUAL relative clause; that is, one without any formal indication that it is a relative clause. As Allen discusses in 12.11, when you have a virtual relative clause modifying an antecedent, the antecedent is indefinite. So in this case you'd have to translate as 'A boat' rather than 'The boat'. The relative clause is 'nn sxry jm.s' - There is no pilot in it. (The feminine 3rd person suffix pronoun 's' is used in order to agree with 'dpt'.) As Allen discusses in 11.4, this can be construed as either: A) a nonverbal negation of existence (nn A), or B) an adverbial sentence negated with the particle 'nn' For the purpose of translation, it really doesn't matter. Literal translation: Like a boat, no pilot in it Free translation: Like a boat without a pilot (in it). 12.10 mj dpt nn sxry jm.s mj = preposition = like dpt = noun = boat mj dpt = like a boat nn = negative sxry = noun = pilot nn sxry = no pilot jm.s = preposition = suffix pronoun = in it mj dpt nn sxry jm.s like a boat, no pilot in it or like a boat without a pilot ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:30:41 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic Russell Littlecreek wrote: > Next up the list, would be a book by Maria Carmela Betro. > “Hieroglyphics The writings of Ancient Egypt” which has about 215 > basic hieratic symbols with some occasional variations on the 215. > These are included as additional information for the basic Gardiner > hieroglyphic sign list. The new hardback retails for 29.99 on > Amazon.com though you can buy used on the same site for 8 bucks (US) > on up, paying extra for shipping. It’s a good book for learning > things about hieroglyphs. It also has some demotic signs in it as > well. I've only glanced at this book, but I would be alittle cautious as to what style of hieratic is being represented for any given sign. It looked rather uneven. > Sheldon Lee Gosline wrote 3 books on late Egyptian hieratic. > “Hieratic Paleography 1: Introductory Late Egyptian” Not currently > available on Amazon. If you can get it, this would be a good book for > learning late Egyptian hieratic. He gives stroke order and clear > examples of the signs. > > He also wrote, “Writing Late Egyptian Hieratic, A beginner’s Primer”. > Used and new from $27.99 on Amazon.com. I think the research is > pretty good and he gives some good transliterations and translations, > but the book is marred by the use of bitmapped hieratic signs which > ruins it for me, these need to be corrected in the next edition. These two books are not really very good > In a higher price range,“Old Hieratic Paleography” By Hans Goedicke > sells used and new on Amazon.com from $59.95. Available currently from David Brown Book Company ( http://www.oxbowbooks.com/ ) at the sale price of US$19.98. Some other good deals there too. > "Hieratische Palaographie" (four volumes included) began to be > published in 1927. Actually written before 1910 (don't remember exact dates offhand). It really needs to be revised because the dating of some of the manuscripts used as examples has changed, but still very usable. > It's acornerstone for learning Hieratic but is still about 178 signs short > of the complete Gardiner list. If you are serious about learning > Hieratic, you still must have these two books. As I mentioned, they are available at http://www.egyptology.ru/lang.htm#Moeller - don't worry about the Russian, the link takes you right to Moeller's books in PDF format. To bad they don't also have the 'Hieratische Lesestucke' ("Hieratic reading book"). > My bias is to suggest you learn Middle Egyptian Hieratic because, it > seems to me, that was used for the longest periods of Egyptian > history and will give you the best grounding in what to look for in > hieratic signs. I think “formal” middle Egyptian hieratic is to > Hieratic as the “formal” King James English is to English. Actually, the form of Hieratic used in the Middle Kingdom went out of use around the end of the 18th Dynasty, the revised form was then used (with gradual changes) till Roman times. However, most people learn Middle Egyptian, which is the language that is being written in the older style of Hieratic, whereas the later form is used mainly for writing Late Egyptian. > I would like to hear other opinions, in case I have left out relevant > materials and sources. I would say that before trying hieratic, given the current teaching materials available, you should get a grounding in reading Egyptian in hieroglyphs. That is usually going to mean Middle Egyptian since that is what is mostly available, and a lot of the material for learning Late Egyptian (for example Friedrich Junge _Late Egyptian Grammar: An Introduction_, translated by David Warburton) assume a good grounding in Middle Egyptian. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:42:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Kim Hegerberg Subject: AEL Beginner Intro & question about a book To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Hello everyone, As a new member of the group I wanted to say how much I have really been enjoying it so far. I am a complete beginner with Hierglyph study so this is all very interesting for me. I really like the James Allen book on Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs. Not sure if anyone else out there is a beginner like myself, but just in case I thought I would recommend a book by Janice Kamrin:Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs : A Practical Guide - A Step-by-Step Approach to Learning Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs which you can get at amazon.com for about $22 new. I think it is very well done too. One question I had, I have seen a lot of criticism about the "Budge books." I had recently bought "First Steps in Egyptian: A Book for Beginners." I am not sure now whether or not I should study it along with the other books I have. If anyone else has worked with this book could you comment on its accuracy in light of the many criticisms of Budge's work? As a beginner I would hate to confuse myself or learn things incorrectly. As I have just learned the monoliteral signs and am now beginning on biliterals I am excited about the prospect of someday soon being able to work through Hieratic on Mr. Fryer's website which I think is really terrific by the way :) Sincerely, Kim ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 12.6 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:51:34 -0500 12:6glyphs: md-D-w-DET-k-n-sw-t-n-DET-jb-k-m-a-k grouped: mdw.k n nswt jb.k m a.k words: mdw.k = you shall speak; nswt=king; jb.k=your heart; a.k=yourhand literally: you shall speak to king, your heart in your hand analysis: a short sentence with a verb, followed by an unmarkedadverbial clause of location, with a connection implied - so caninsert `with/while/and' (or use `.ing' form = your heart being in yourhand) finally: you shall speak to the king, with your heart in your hand(Allen: ., with your heart with you)Comment: I take this to mean: to speak to the king with sincerity,`with all your heart', rather than implying humility `with your handon your heart' or lack of courage `take heart' - any thoughts anyone? ****************************************** mdw.k n nsw jb.k m a.k "You shall speak to the king, your heart in your hand." This is a sentence whose main clause is "mdw.k n nsw" - "you shall speak to the king," with the (prospective?) verb "mdw" - "speak," and the 2MS suffix pronoun as subject. The adverbial predicate of the main clause is the prepositional phrase "n nsw" - "to the king." The main clause is followed by an unmarked circumstantial clause (with adverbial predicate): "jb.k m a.k" - your heart (is) in your hand." Allen takes the idiomatic expression "jb.k m a.k" to mean "your heart with you." I don't have the benefit of his experience with other instances of this usage, but I agree with the previous poster. To me, it implies a certain openness or honesty - "laying your heart open." But that's very subjective, so I left it at the literal translation. ****************************************************************** 12.6 mdw.k n nswt jb.k m a.k mdw.k = you shall speak n = preposition = to nswt = noun = king mdw.k n nswt you shall speak to the king jb.k = noun + suffix pronoun = your heart m = preposition = in a.k = noun + suffix pronoun = your hand jb.k m a.k = your heart in your hand mdw.k n nswt jb.k m a.k you shall speak to the king, your heart in your hand This is (I think) an unmarked adverb clause - S12.17 ************************************************* 12.6 Orientation: Horizontal, right to left Transliteration: S43-D46-G43-A2-V31A:N35-M22-X1:N35-G7-F34*Z1:V31A-G17-D36:V31A S42-D46-G43-A2 = mdw.k N35 = n M22-X1:N35-G7{DET Horus on standard} = nswt F34*Z1{DET the thing specified):V31A = jb.k G17 = m D36:V31A = a.k mdw.k n nswt jb.k m a.k Vocabulary from Allen: mw.k "you shall speak" Vocabulary miscellaneous n "to", preposition nswt "King", noun jb "heart", noun .k 2nd masc sing suffix pronoun a "arm, hand", noun Grammar: mdw.k is the verb and subject, "you shall speak", the direct object is unexpressed. n nswt is an unmarked adverb clause, indirect object, "to the king". jb.k m a.k is an unmarked adverb clause of circumstance, "your heart (being) in your hand". Translation: "You shall speak to the king, with your heart in your hand", i.e. with trepidation? ============================================================================== From: "Bob Myers" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Coffin Texts Paleography? Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:16:39 -0500 Hi; Looking at Moeller was a thrill. But, does anyone know, is there a similar study for the cursive hieroglyphic script of the Coffin Texts? We now have Wasserman's edtition of Bugde plates /Faulkner translation BD, so it is easy to have a look at the entire Ani manuscript. But, I do not yet know of a work that gives us such a good look of the calligraphy of the Book of Two Ways or texts like that. Thanks. What I have been hearing is that many Egyptian scribes themselves started out practicing a version of cursive hieroglyphic. And, I think we are overdue for a calligraphic Egyptian font that is as a posteriori as we can get and still be readable by beginning students. I was looking at the archives from 7-8 years back where one professor described the ideal focus group for a hieratic font. I hear that there is one, now, though I have not seen samples. Best, Bob ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:02:29 +0100 Subject: Re: AEL Beginner Intro & question about a book Hi Kim, Welcome to the list. Glad you are finding it useful! > One question I had, I have seen a lot of criticism about the "Budge books." I had > recently bought "First Steps in Egyptian: A Book for Beginners." I am not sure now > whether or not I should study it along with the other books I have. If anyone else has > worked with this book could you comment on its accuracy in light of the many criticisms of > Budge's work? As a beginner I would hate to confuse myself or learn things incorrectly. This is something that has been discussed a few times on the list, but not for a while so I think it's worth a recap. Budge was writing his books about 100 years ago, and our understanding of ancient Egyptian has improved dramatically since that time. This is reflected in the recent teaching books available. You would be much better advised to study from a recent book such as James Allen's Middle Egyptian that you mentioned. There is a very real risk that a beginner would indeed be confused by studying in the first instance from Budge. Budge also uses a transliteration system that is different to that which is used today. The general consensus is that his books are still useful for the hieroglyphic texts that are contained in them, and occasionally for cases where you cannot find what you are looking for in a more recent book. A few years ago Geoff Graham, then a PHD student a Yale, posted a very good summary of the pros and cons of using Budge. This post is still available on the AEL site and well worth a look: http://www.rostau.org.uk/AEgyptian-L/faq/week108_budge.txt A couple of other links that beginners may find useful. The first mentions some of the key books people are using at the moment for ancient Egyptian, and the second gives links to some introductory lessons. http://www.rostau.org.uk/AEgyptian-L/biblio/biblioindex.html http://www.rostau.org.uk/AEgyptian-L/learning/learning.html Best wishes, Mark Wilson. ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 04:00:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Kathleen Subject: Re: AEL Coffin Texts Paleography? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Bob, You mentioned that looking at Moeller was a thrill. Can you look at it in English? Or do you understand Russian? Could you please clarify? If there is a hieratic font out there, I would be interested. Thanks, Kathleen Bob Myers wrote: Hi; Looking at Moeller was a thrill. But, does anyone know, is there a similar study for the cursive hieroglyphic script of the Coffin Texts? We now have Wasserman's edtition of Bugde plates /Faulkner translation BD, so it is easy to have a look at the entire Ani manuscript. But, I do not yet know of a work that gives us such a good look of the calligraphy of the Book of Two Ways or texts like that. Thanks. What I have been hearing is that many Egyptian scribes themselves started out practicing a version of cursive hieroglyphic. And, I think we are overdue for a calligraphic Egyptian font that is as a posteriori as we can get and still be readable by beginning students. I was looking at the archives from 7-8 years back where one professor described the ideal focus group for a hieratic font. I hear that there is one, now, though I have not seen samples. Best, Bob ============================================================================== From: "rjlittlec@juno.com" Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 14:02:40 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Coffin Texts Paleography? Bob wrote: "I was looking at the archives from 7-8 years back where one professor described the ideal focus group for a hieratic font. I hear that there is one, now, though I have not seen samples." Could you please provide more information on this?" Thanks Russell Littlecreek ============================================================================== From: "Greg Zuck" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Beginner Intro & question about a book Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:49:34 -0500 Reminder that Mark Collier, How to Read Egyptian, is in a Revised Edition (expanded and corrected) dated 2003 in Introduction to the Revised Edition. Is not Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs, a Practical Guide; a step by step approach to leaning ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, by Janice Kamrin (ISBN 0-8109-4961-X), Abrams, 2004 a 'fun' and easy intro? Greg Zuck ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 12.8 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:59:08 -0500 12.8 (read from left to right) jr.n.(j) nn mj qd jsT w(j) m jmj-jb nbt.f jr.n.(j) = I did nn = demonstrative pronoun (neutral) = this/that mj qd = prepositional phrase (S6.7) = 'like the shape', meaning 'whole' jr.n.(j) nn mj qd = I did all this jsT = particle - marks an adverb clause (describes circumstances when main clause is true = e.g. when w(j) = dependent personal pronoun = I/me/my m = preposition = as jmj-jb = confidant nbt.f = noun + suffix pronoun = his lady jsT w(j) m jmj-jb nbt.f = when I (was) as a confident (of) his lady jr.n.(j) nn mj qd jsT w(j) m jmj-jb nbt.f I did all this, when I was a confident of his lady ***************************** Exercise 12.8 ------------- transliteration: jr.n.(j) nn mj qd jsT w(j) m jmj-jb nbt.f translation: I did all this while/since I was a confidant of his lady This is a sentence with a verbal predicate. The subject and verb are given by 'jr.n.(j)', and Allen tells us that this translates as "I did". The object of the verb is the (neuter) demonstrative adjective 'nn' ("this"). Here, 'nn' is modified by the prepositional phrase 'mj qd', which literally means "like the shape", but has the idiomatic meaning "all, whole, entire" (sec. 6.7). As concerns this chapter, the main point of interest in this sentence is 'jsT w(j) m jmj-jb nbt.f', which is a clause marked by the particle 'jsT' standing at the beginning. This is a nonverbal clause with an adverbial predicate; as usual for such clauses, the subject (here the dependent, personal pronoun 'wj') precedes the predicate. The predicate is the prepositional phrase 'm jmj-jb nbt.f' and is an example of the 'm' of predication: 'wj' ("I") is identified as a 'jmj-jb nbt.f' ("confidant of his lady"). The clause 'jsT w(j) m jmj-jb nbt.f' plays an adverbial role in this sentence. It describes the circumstances under which "I did all this". 12.8 read left to right Allen's hints: jr.n.(j) "I did;" mj qd: S6.7; jmj-jb "confidant" (literally, "one who is in the heart") Note for Allen's hint for mj qd: 6.7 tells us that mj qd means literally "like the shape," but is translated "whole, complete, entire, all." Transcription: jr.n.(j) nn mj qd jsT w(j) m jm(j)-jb nbt.f Dissection: >jr.n.(j) - "I did," spelled D4(jr)-N35(n). The weak consonant "j" is not spelled out. >nn = "this/that/these/those," spelled M22 twice (when M22 is doubled it is transcribed "nn") (5.8). >mj qd = "complete, whole, entire, all" (literally, "like the character"). Spelled: mj > W19 (mj)-M17(j); qd > Aa28(qd)-D46(d)-N33(determinative, usually spelled using W24)-Y2(variant of Y1, determinative CONCEPT) (6.7) >jr.n.(j) nn mj qd = "I did all this" or "I did all these" >jsT = adverbial clause marker translated variously as "when, although, while, for, and..." (12.16.1) >w(j) = 1st person singular dependent pronoun "I." Spelled G43 (w) with weak consonant "j" not spelled out. (5.4) >m = "in (the function of)," "m of predication," spelled G17(m). (10.6) >jmj-jb = "confidant" (literally, "one who is in the heart") >jmj = nisbe, "(one who is) inherent in," spelled Z11(jm), weak "j" is not spelled out. (8.6.1) >jb = "heart," spelled F34 (jb) -Z1 (F34 is meant to be read as "heart") >nbt = "lady," (female counterpart of nb "lord"), spelled V30(nb)+X1(t). >.f = 3rd person masculine singular suffix pronoun, spelled I9(f) (5.3) >jm(j)-jb nbt.f = an indirect genitive phrase, "a/the confidant of his lady." Translation: Allen's Translation > I did all this while I was a confidant of his lady. Alternatives: The ambiguous nature of the adverbial marker jsT provides the opportunity (or challenge) to translate the sentence a number of ways: I did all this while I was a confidant of his lady. I did all this although I was a confidant of his lady. I did all this when I was a confidant of his lady. I did all this for I was a confidant of his lady. Notes: Allen translated nn mj qd as "all this;" however, it could just as easily be interpreted "all these" as in "all these things." Also, jmj-jb could be translated as "the confidant," signifying a special relationship to nbt.f: I did all this when I was "the" confidant of his lady. 12.8 jr=B7n(.j) nn mj qd jsT w(j) m jmj-jb nbt=B7f I did all this while I was his lady's confidant. jr=B7n=B7(j) = "I did" (a verb form expressing completed action) nn = "this" 3n demonstrative pronoun, object of the verb mj qd = "whole", "entire" (literally "like the shape"), an apparent adjective (=A76.7) jsT adverb clause marker w(j) = "I", 1s dependent pronoun, the subject m the 'm' of predication jmj-jb = "confidant" (literally "one who is in the heart"); jmj is a prepositional nisbe nbt=B7f = "his lady" This example has a main clause with a verb, and a subordinate adverb clause marked by 'jsT'. The object of the verb in the main clause is a demonstrative pronoun used on its own. When used in this way Egyptian usually uses the neutral forms of the demonstrative (=A75.9). The phrase 'mj qd', for which Allen helpfully refers us to =A76.7, is one of a number of prepositional phrases equivalent to the English adjectives "whole", "entire" or "complete". So the main clause is "I did the whole of this" or "I did all of this". The subordinate clause is an adverbial sentence of identity with the 'm' of predication (=A710.6). The subject is 'w(j)', a dependent pronoun, because this type of pronoun is used as subject in clauses with adverbial predicate introduced by 'isT' (=A712.15.1). The remainder of the sentence forms the object of the preposition. First, there is a prepositional nisbe 'jmj' used as a noun (=A78.7) with 'jb' as it's object. Allen tells us to translate this as "confidant". Following that there is a direct genitive 'nbt=B7f', "his lady". Because the main clause is in the past it is appropriate to use the past tense for the subordinate clause. So this clause translates as "I was his lady's confidant". The adverb clause says something about when the main clause is true. Common translations of 'jsT' are "when" or "while", but other words like "for", "and" or "although" are possible, depending on context. In the key Allen has used "while". ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY 12.7 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:52:20 -0500 12.7 wjn.sn tp tA nn tw jm.f wjn.sn = they don't want to be tp = preposition = atop/on tA = noun = land wjn.sn tp tA = they don't want to be atop/on the land nn = negative particle tw = pronoun = you jm.f = preposition + suffix pronoun = in it nn tw jm.f = you not in it wjn.sn tp tA nn tw jm.f = they don't want to be atop/on the land, you not in it or = they don't want to be on the earth without you on it ****************************** 12.7 right to left wjn.sn tp tA nn tw jm.f They don't want to be on Earth without you in it. wjn reject-here means don't want to be .sn 3pl suffix pronoun they tp on tA noun Earth nn negation without tw 2ms dependent pronoun you jm in .f 3ms it They don't want to be on Earth - independent clause without you on it - dependent clause ****************************** Exercise 12.7 transliteration: wjn.sn tp tA nn tw jm.f First clause [wjn.sn tp tA] = independent wjn.sn - "they don't want to be" tp - preposition - "on, upon" tA - "land" "They don't want to be on land" Second clause [nn tw jm.f] = subordinate, dependent nn - "not" (negates a sentence) tw - you im.f - "in it" - "it/him" refers to the noun land "You are not in it" translation: "They don't want to be on land as you are not in it" 12.7. wjn=B7sn tp tA nn tw jm=B7f They don't want to be upon the earth while you are not on it. wjn=B7sn = "they don't want to be" - wjn is a verb, the suffix pronoun sn is its subject tp tA = "upon earth" - prepositional phrase, part of the main clause nn negates a clause with adverbial predicate tw = "you" - 2nd ms dependent pronoun, the subject of the clause jm=B7f = "on it" - adjectival predicate This is a verbal sentence with an unmarked subordinate clause. The subordinate clause has an adverbial predicate, and is negated by 'nn', which stands at the beginning of the clause. Because there is only one earth ("the" earth), 'tA' is normally be considered a defined noun. So, although '=B7f' could be the coreferent of an indirect relative clause with 'tA' as antecedent, this is unlikely, as unmarked relative clauses are normally used for undefined antecedents. Instead the subordinate clause is adverbial and describes the circumstance under which the main clause is true. After 'nn' a dependent pronoun is used as the subject of the clause. With a suffix pronoun 'm' becomes 'jm'. In translation the adverb clause can be linked to the main clause by a word like "while" or "since". ============================================================================== From: "saqqara" To: "AEL" Subject: AEL Hieratic font requirements Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:56:10 +0100 Given recent on-list interest in hieratic... In conjunction with research on Egyptian Hieroglyphs in Unicode, I've been looking at some related issues such as how hieratic and cursive hieroglyphs ought to fit in the scheme of things. It must be said that bringing the benefits of Unicode support to Ancient Egyptian is not something that will happen overnight, we are talking years not months, yet as Sam Gamgee observed, "It's the job that's never started as takes longest to finish". On the positive, the software infrastructure needed for the hieroglyphic script immediately provides some real benefits to work with hieratic script. The obvious negative is the much lower utility of a single hieratic font compared with its hieroglyphic sibling. Nevertheless, my personal view is that a model or exemplar hieratic font would have some value, not only for educational purposes but also to help focus attention on what is required for a more elaborate and useful treatment on computer. So, questions for list members: 1. Is this something you'd be interested in and/or would find useful? 2. For such a model font, would you prefer a style that gravitates toward Middle or Late Egyptian? 3. Are there any specific features you would like to see in such a font. Off list comments to saqqara@csi.com. Thanks Bob Richmond www.gameset.com ============================================================================== From: "Andy Woodgate" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 08:03:30 +0000 Kathleen, Apart from them being two different languages (the link was specifically set up to translate from Russia), the .pdf is a different matter.  The translation facility provided by Altavista (and there are others), will only work on text you enter or complete websites…   http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish http://www.freetranslation.com/ However, as these .pdf are effectively images collated together and some of the writing is handwritten then the only way you can get a translation is to enter the words in the translators yourself.    Hope this helps. Andy >Kathleen wrote. >  Your idea works great on the home page.  That is amazing!. But does not work when opening the PDF file for >HIERATISCHE PALD.OGRAPHIE. Leipzig, 1909-1936.  Any other suggestions? ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:39:43 -0700 (PDT) From: george geoffrey conwill Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear All, I'd like to add my vote for the "Shipwrecked Sailor". Pax et bonum, Geoff Conwill ============================================================================== From: "Brian Yare" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: AEL Spiegelberg, Die Demotischen Denkmaeler Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 09:57:52 +0100 There have been several requests for this. This 3-volume set from the General Catalogue of the Cairo Museum is now available from us on CD-ROM. It comprises: Die Demotischen Inschriften, 1904 Die Demotischen Papyrus - Text, 1908 Die Demotischen Papyrus - Tafeln, 1906 Brian Yare Yare Egyptology http://www.yare.org/egypt ============================================================================== From: "Jim Ashton" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Hieratic font requirements Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:39:16 +0100 I strongly agree that provision of hieratic unicodes would be helpful. I wonder if the lack of them is related to the fact that so many hieratic texts are "converted" into hieroglyphs (with the mistakes and "interpretations" which that involves) and are thus more available to the student in this form. I would dearly love to be able to read (I can't, yet) a printed version of the hieratic text of the boating trip from the court of Khufu, for example, (with the uncertainties highlighted), rather than the multiple versions (e.g. Quirke, Lichtheim etc.) of the hieroglyphic text. The question is: would this availability of an "original" text remove some of these differences in appreciation of the story? Please keep up the pressure, Bob, Gandalf will thank you for it! Jim Ashton ============================================================================== From: ANuttyQuilter@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:05:59 EDT Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk I too would like to have a go at the Shipwrecked sailor having just translated it from hieroglyphs Tania Godwin-Evans ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:36:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Chip Jones Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic font requirements To: Ancient Egyptian Language List I'm not pushing for Sheldon Gosline's work, but he has received little recognition for his work with Late Egyptian Hieratic. He has already done the work with LEH fonts in 1999, part of his "hieratic font project" in 1999. In my possession is his CD rom which already has all of the hieratic fonts present. This Rom was distributed by Gosline's "Shangri La press" in Pennsylvania. All I have is an old email address, Shangri-La@egypt.net If that doesn't work, then I'd be happy to send my ROM to anyone interested in borrowing my copy. Otherwise, Sheldon is somewhere in the world and should be easily located? Chuck Jones ARCE Orange County ============================================================================== From: "Brian Yare" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Hieratic font requirements Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 08:24:59 +0100 << I strongly agree that provision of hieratic unicodes would be helpful. >> From earlier in the discussion, or maybe from another discussion, I was led to believe that there was a one-to-one mapping from hieratic to hieroglyphs. If this is the case then there is no need for an additional set of Unicodes for hieratic. Please, someone, confirm that I am being naive? Brian Yare ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 07:41:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Julie Morgan Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic To: Ancient Egyptian Language List hi, strangely enough we have just coverd the shipwrecked sailor at uni and will be doing the first three pages for our exam on may 17th. If anyone is interested that would be great! But i have to stick with birmingham school and use gardiner so allen does not really help here - any takers? best, julie anne ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:52:31 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , ROSMORDUC Serge Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic font requirements Jim Ashton a écrit : >I strongly agree that provision of hieratic unicodes would be helpful. I >wonder if the lack of them is related to the fact that so many hieratic >texts are "converted" into hieroglyphs (with the mistakes and >"interpretations" which that involves) and are thus more available to >the student in this form. I would dearly love to be able to read (I >can't, yet) a printed version of the hieratic text of the boating trip >from the court of Khufu, for example, (with the uncertainties >highlighted), rather than the multiple versions (e.g. Quirke, Lichtheim >etc.) of the hieroglyphic text. The question is: would this availability >of an "original" text remove some of these differences in appreciation >of the story? >Please keep up the pressure, Bob, Gandalf will thank you for it! > >Jim Ashton > > Hello, I'm probably going to be a bit negative, but I feel it might be interesting to say why there are no hieratic fonts. As far as I know, there were a number of attempts at hieratic fonts in the XIXth century. However, they haven't been used, and not only for technical reasons. Simply, they don't help much. It's a bit like having "handwritten" fonts for latin text. It's fun, but nobody uses them for real texts. In most cases, hieratic signs can be paired with a hieroglyphic equivalent. When they can't, either : * you can introduce the hieratic sign in your hieroglyphic font. That's the case of a number of signs in the Gardiner fonts, some of which made it into actual hieroglyphic texts (like Z12, which is originally the left arm of the A25 sign), others, like Ff1 (a "comma"-like sign) were designed to render specific hieratic signs. The list could certainly be expanded a bit (see for instance http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/JSesh/hieroglyphs/signesDemotiques/ , or Hannig dictionary). * The sign is not identified, and a hieratic font would not help either. * there are a number of cases when multiple interpretations are possible. For instance, I remember a Deir-el-Medina ostracon where the original transcriber proposed the reading "mw" where in fact a simple "n:A" was probably to be understood (the two groups can be very much alike in hieratic). But in this case, if you had a hieratic font, what would you do ? - have a different sign for both groups ? then the rendering problem would be the same as in hieroglyphs. - have only one sign ? but both groups are *usually* different. When a hieratic text is edited, the editor normally includes a fac-simile drawing (or good and readable photographs or both), along with the hieroglyphic rendering. In some other cases (for instance Bibliotheca AEgyptiaca books), when (often for cost reasons) there is no facsimile or photograph, the difficulties will be highlighted with fac-simile of obscure or incertain signs. In any case, a hieratic font would not give a faithful rendering of the original text. It might be somehow useful for pedagogical purposes, though. BTW, the Westcar Papyrus' edition by Blackman includes the photographs of the papyrus (but they are not that readable). As for your last question, most of the difficulties (and hence differences in translations) in translating texts like the shipwrecked sailor or Westcar come, not from the hieratic, but from grammatical and above all lexical uncertainties. There are of course cases where knowing hieratic is useful, even when reading hieroglyphic texts. Occasionaly, the egyptian scribe would make a mistake when rendering the original hieratic draft into hieroglyphs, or even, ignoring the correct hieroglyphic equivalent, directly render a hieratic sign in hieroglyphs (famous cases include n:t:k for F29). Now, to learn hieratic, as S. Fryers pointed out, you first need to have a firm grasp on the language itself. In a way, to read a hieratic text (if it's not a very calligraphic hieratic) you need vocabulary and aquaintance with texts and formulas. Plus practice. People who are good at hieratic practice a lot. Of course, a problem when one wants to start hieratic is that it's more difficult to find hieratic texts than hieroglyphic ones. Often, the classical litterary texts were published long time ago, and the original edition with the hieratic facsimile is both out of print and over expensive ; and, of course, the later publication usually give only a hieroglyphic rendering, being content with giving a bibliographical reference, which can help the professional or the lucky student who has access to a good library, but is frustrating to the amateur (or less lucky student). Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Bob Myers" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Cc: Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic font requirements Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:53:53 -0500 Here is a letter to the group I sent on 4/10/06 that I never saw circulated: Hi; Looking at Moeller was a thrill. But, does anyone know, is there a similar study for the cursive hieroglyphic script of the Coffin Texts? We now have Wasserman's edtition of Bugde plates /Faulkner translation BD, so it is easy to have a look at the entire Ani manuscript. But, I do not yet know of a work that gives us such a good look of the calligraphy of the Book of Two Ways or texts like that. Thanks. What I have been hearing is that many Egyptian scribes themselves started out practicing a version of cursive hieroglyphic. And, I think we are overdue for a calligraphic Egyptian font that is as a posteriori as we can get and still be readable by beginning students. I was looking at the archives from 7-8 years back where one professor described the ideal focus group for a hieratic font. I hear that there is one, now, though I have not seen samples. Best, Bob P.S. One scholar on the Glyph Study group responded that the photos of the coffins upon which the texts are inscribed are in the Oriental Institutes of Leiden and Chicago, but no paleographic study has been done. If we look at the scripts of the underworld books and funerary papyri of Dynasty XIX, they are beautiful, but the more often used glyphs are sometimes severely abbreviated, and a beginning student would not readily recognize some. I am guessing that this might be less the case with Dynasty XII coffins, but as I have not seen the actual texts, I don't know. ============================================================================== From: "Bob Myers" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic font requirements Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 21:41:00 -0500 Mr. Rosmorduc wrote: >It's a bit like having "handwritten" fonts > for Latin text. It's fun, but nobody uses them for real texts. In most > cases, hieratic signs can be paired with a hieroglyphic equivalent. > In any case, a hieratic font would not give a faithful rendering of the > original text. It might be somehow useful for pedagogical purposes, > though. Hi; You are worthy of veneration for the creation of JSesh. And, what a great explanation of the dynamics at work in the modern study of manuscripts. So, if there is a new font for cursive hieroglyphic some day, maybe it should be called, "Pedagogic Fun". I now understand just why it would probably never serve to clarify any academic question other than to approximate the aesthetic adventure of an ancient Egyptian scribe. Sorry to sound so ecstatic. Thanks. Bob ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 19:43:25 -0500 From: "Nicole B. Hansen" Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic font requirements To: Ancient Egyptian Language List I have to say that I agree with Serge's negativity on this one. I think having a hieratic font would almost be a danger in teaching because it would, by its very nature, put too much emphasis on one scribe's handwriting over another. I think perhaps a more pressing problem with hieratic is one that Serge mentions: >Of course, a problem when one wants to start hieratic is that it's more >difficult to find hieratic texts than hieroglyphic ones. I think what would be helpful would be electronic editions of texts. Many of them were published long ago and are out of copyright so there would be no legal hurdles for them to be scanned and put online by someone or some organization wanting to do so. Perhaps some of these scanning intitiatives that promise millions of books online in the next few years will tackle some of these books. With scans of texts available, then it might be possible to produce some sort of database of either hieratic characters or words and use it for many types of analysis and research. There's some great work going on along those lines with Arabic papyri at the University of Zurich(http://orientx.unizh.ch:9080/apd/project.jsp), and I can only imagine what amazing things could be done if such an initiative were launched for Egyptian. Nicole B. Hansen Ph.D. candidate, Egyptology, University of Chicago Study hieroglyphs online at http://www.glyphdoctors.com Chicago, USA ==============================================================================