From: "Jaime Pretell" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL New to Egyptian Grammar Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:00:55 -0500 Would you say a lot of Champollion and Budge are still accurate in their translations or have their translations not stood up to new studies? ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:22:33 -0800 (PST) From: Julie Morgan Subject: Re: AEL New to Egyptian Grammar To: Ancient Egyptian Language List hi mark, thanks for getting back to me ! we are having to use gardiner at univesity so it is difficult to get around. i am stuck on "what is an antecendent" and also "logical subject" or "predicate" in "pw". Gardiner uses such flowery language so it would be really nice if someone could to tell me what this means in ENGLISH !! best, julie anne Mark Wilson wrote: > Dear Julie Anne, > > Welcome to AEL! It's difficult to give you a > specific answer as you don't say exactly what > you are having trouble with. It is a common > experience, though, to find Gardiner can > become quite difficult, especially if you are > studying on your own and don't have a teacher. > > There are more up to date grammar books available > that you may find better to work with. A > lot of people are using Middle Egyptian by James > Allen. It's worth noting that the more > recent books on ancient Egyptian take advantage of > improvements in our understanding of > the language since Gardiner wrote his grammar. Have > a look at this page for a bibliography > of recent publications: > > http://www.rostau.org.uk/AEgyptian-L/biblio/biblioindex.html > > These pages have links to online lessons that will > help you to get started. > > http://www.rostau.org.uk/AEgyptian-L/learning/hierointro.html > http://www.rostau.org.uk/AEgyptian-L/learning/learning.html > > Best wishes, > Mark Wilson. > > > > > i am completely new to egyptian grammar and am > finding > > things very troublesome, esspecially gardiner. has > > anyone got any useful tips? > > > > julie anne. ============================================================================== From: "Anne Morrison" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL New to Egyptian Grammar Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 21:06:39 +1030 Hi Julie Anne, I am a member of the AEL list, but I don't post that often because I am working from a slightly different framework (I am working from the field of linguistics, rather than Egyptology). I am currently completing my PhD on the topic "Self-Instruction in Middle Egyptian". I am interested that your university is using Gardiner as a textbook, since I was under the impression from other comments on the list (over time) that most universities were no longer using Gardiner - partly for the very same reasons that you mention (the difficulty of the English!). I would like to be able to say in my thesis that some universities use Gardiner. I was wondering which university you attend, and if you know of other universities using Gardiner also. By the way, I majored in linguistics, and one of the aspects of my PhD is to try and 'convert' explanations of Egyptian language into terminology that is easier to understand. So if you have some questions about Gardiner's terminology, I am happy to try and work out what he is getting at. I found his language pretty obtuse at the best of times. Good luck with your studies, Anne Morrison PhD Candidate University of South Australia ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:07:29 +1000 From: G Watson To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New to Egyptian Grammar Hi Julie As others have said - using Gardiner is dangerous because he is now out of date. Also, as you have found, writing in 1927 he discusses AE grammar in terms of an English grammatical framework that is also now long past its use-by-date and with which few will be familiar. In respect to your queries: The term "predicate" refers to a grammatical analysis which classifies the components of a sentence into subject + predicate - have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_%28grammar%29 for a brief explanation and discussion. The word "antecedent" just means "that which went before", and in this sort of context it means the second of a group of two terms or components. eg in #195 Gardiner discusses the form noun+adjective (epithet), and he calls the noun the "antecedent" of the adj. In respect to "logical subject" - the "logical" indicates that is talking about the "sense" or "meaning" of a sentence rather than simply its structure as revealed by grammatical analysis. In this case I guess he is talking about sentences that have a subject + predicate *meaning* and perhaps looking for unusual examples where this does not exactly match the grammatical structure. Two other terms he uses a lot are the classifications "nominal" (noun-based) vs "adjectival" (adjective-based). Hope this helps Geoffrey Watson Brisbane Australia ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:23:56 -0500 From: pd To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL New to Egyptian Grammar On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 05:36:39 -0500, Anne Morrison wrote: > By the way, I majored in linguistics, and one of the aspects of my PhD > is to try and 'convert' explanations of Egyptian language into > terminology that is easier to understand. That sounds interesting. Have you seen Leo Depuydt's book, "Fundamentals of Egyptian Grammar"? I actually find his unusual approach easier to understand than some other books. I also like that he uses hieroglyphs in *every* example rather than relying on transcriptions. -Paul Dickson ============================================================================== From: "Bert Leyns" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL transliterations Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 15:17:08 +0100 Hello ! Can anyone suggest to me where I could find a transliteration and/or translation (English, French, German) of the following: - Heqanakhte First Letter - Coptos decree of Necheperure Antef V - Book of the Dead, Chapters 5 and 30 (A & B) Thanks in advance ! Bert Leyns ============================================================================== From: To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL transliterations Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 00:50:35 -0800 Hi ! I have The Heqanakht Papyri by James P. Allen Here are the links for the First Letter: http://img16.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc153&image=8aad6_Heqanakht_First_Letter_01.jpg http://img147.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc280&image=05c6e_Heqanakht_First_Letter_02.jpg 1:st image is the retro 1-17 with numbers refering to the lines of the papyrus. 2:nd is the verso, reverse side of the papyrus. There is also the Textual Notes, but letter I has 17 pages of those. ============================================================================== From: "Brian Yare" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL New to Egyptian Grammar Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:47:33 -0000 << I would like to be able to say in my thesis that some universities use Gardiner. I was wondering which university you attend, and if you know of other universities using Gardiner also. >> The University of Warwick (UK) uses Gardiner for its occasional courses in Hieroglyphics, probably because it has several copies available. The courses are part of the Lifelong Learning Program. Brian Yare ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:56:22 -0800 (PST) From: Julie Morgan Subject: RE: AEL New to Egyptian Grammar To: Ancient Egyptian Language List hi, i attend the university of birmingham.i am not sure whether or not other universities do the same. But we are told that it has not been superseded and should stick to gardiner. it is not really the egyptian that causes the problems it is the terminology he uses ! julie anne ============================================================================== From: "andre dollinger" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL transliterations Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 16:30:19 +0200 Hi Transliterations and German translations of the Hekanakhte papyri I to IV can be found at the Thesaurus Linguae Aegyptiae website (http://aaew2.bbaw.de/tla ). The following steps should be taken: 1.Login zur Suche in der Datenbank 2.Suche in der Datenbank: Navigation in der Gliederungshierarchie der Objekte und Texte 3.Alt=E4gyptisches W=F6rterbuch, Berlin-Brandenburgische Akademie der Wissenschaften 4.Briefe 5.Briefe des Mittleren Reiches 6.Verwaltung/Alltag 7.Briefe der Pap. Hekanakhte kind regards andre dollinger ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:39:35 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Alexandra Velten Subject: RE: AEL New to Egyptian Grammar Dear all, I am completing a PhD thesis about the development of Egyptological linguistic terminology, concentrating in my corpus on Middle Egyptian grammars and related grammatical/linguistic works (so almost the same territory that Anne Morrison works on; I also majored in linguistics and have a monir on Egyptology), and I found it is NOT the terminology Gardiner uses that makes it more complicated, but the fact that (as Anne has already said) we suffer from a lack of standardisation, and as soon as we leave the safety of one grammar's terminology, we get drowned by another grammar's differing terms. I think I only have to mention the abundance of sDm=fs, and the thousand ways of actually writing them down (dots, hyphens, equality signs....) or the (for many people) enigmatic 'circumstantial' forms (which are spelled in most grammars with the quotation marks!) to make my point. And as soon as you have a teacher who NOT only follows Gardiner but tries to incorporate something more modern, you run into trouble. Just my two (Euro-) cents, Kind regards, Alexandra Velten PhD Candidate University of Mainz, Germany velten@uni-mainz.de ============================================================================== From: "msv" To: Subject: AEL Merenptah Stela Line 15 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 18:39:58 -0000 Wakey wakey all you lurkers, where are you.......give it a go Line 14 / 15 wpy Hna =f m iwnw iry sw tA psDt m aDA Hr btAw =f He was Judged in Heliopolis and the Ennead (found ?) him guilty on account of his crimes Dd nb-r-Dr imi pA xpS n sA =i aqA HAty nay sfny The Lord-of-All said, Give the strong arm/power to my son, the straightforward one, lenient and merciful (bA-n-ra mry-imn) pA nhp Hr Hwt-kA-ptH wSbt [16] iwnw (Baenre, Meryamun) the one who cares for Memphis and answers for [16] Heliopolis encouraging comments welcome as usual :-) mark v ============================================================================== From: "Jerzy Prus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL transliterations Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:28:12 -0500 Dear Bert, Letter First by Heqanakhte = MMA 22.3.516, to Merisu about the renting of land was translated by T.G.H. James, The Heqanakhte Papers and other Early Middle Kingdom Documents, New York 1962 MMA: translation - p.13-14, commentary 12-31, pl.1-4 - photo. and hieroglyphic transcription. The second translation was maded by Hans Goedicke, Studies in the Hekanakhte Papers, Baltimore 1984 Halgo Inc., p.38-76; translation p.43-45, commentary p.45-76, hieroglyphic transcription pl.4-7. The last translation was maded by James P. Allen, The Heqanakht Papyri, New York 2002 MMA, p.15-16 - translation, p.21-37 - commentary, pl.8-9 - photo black/white (in colour see CD), hieratic epigraphy and hieroglyphic transcription - pl.26-29. Regards, Jerzy Prus ============================================================================== From: "A.P.de Visser" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Merenptah Stela Line 15 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:42:56 +0100 Hi Mark Like Serge you translate the as a perfective.In that case we have to do with a perfective passive participle? Or might it also be a Prospective form and be translated as or ? The whole sentence as follows: the Ennead will make him guilty(or:declare him wrong) because etc. Regards Bram ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 19:57:58 +0100 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Merenptah Stela Line 15 > >Hi Mark >Like Serge you translate the as a perfective.In that case we have to >do with a perfective passive participle? > > In Ramesside texts, the usual form for the past is the "perfective sDm=f" (nothing to do with Gardiner's perfective), which is simply the equivalent of the "iw sDm.n=f " (in fact, its origin is a sDm.n=f, but the ".n" had already fallen in the XVIIth dynasty, as Kamose's stella shows. It surfaces now and then in XVIIIth dynasty texts, which normally revert to Middle Egyptian). Grammatically, this rendering isn't problematic at all. >Or might it also be a Prospective form and be translated as >or ? >The whole sentence as follows: > >the Ennead will make him guilty(or:declare him wrong) because etc. > > It's definitly a possibility. In the context, I would favour the perfective, though. Regards, Serge Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:26:18 +0100 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Merenptah Stela Line 15 msv a écrit : > Wakey wakey all you lurkers, where are you.......give it a go > > > Line 14 / 15 > wpy Hna =f m iwnw iry sw tA psDt m aDA Hr btAw =f > He was Judged in Heliopolis and the Ennead (found ?) him guilty on > account of his crimes Just a little correction : read sw wpy Hna=f m iwnw Which is a "first present" (see http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/Qenherkhepeshef/intro4.html ). "wpy" is an old perfective, with past passive meaning. "he has been judged" In my last mail, in answer to a question about "iry", I said it was probably a perfective, but could be a prospective. Well, I answered too fast. In this context, the only option is a perfective sDm=f. > > Dd nb-r-Dr imi pA xpS n sA =i aqA HAty nay sfny > The Lord-of-All said, Give the strong arm/power to my son, the > straightforward one, lenient and merciful > > (bA-n-ra mry-imn) pA nhp Hr Hwt-kA-ptH wSbt [16] iwnw > (Baenre, Meryamun) the one who cares for Memphis and answers for > [16] Heliopolis I agree with this translation. "Ddw" might also be a prospective, in this case with final meaning : hence/so that the lord of all said... but the context still favours a perfective. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "msv" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Merenptah Stela Line 15 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:55:49 -0000 Bram, Thanks, I was always told that iri meant 'make / act / do' and I couldn't think of an English translation that made modern sense, so used 'found', or 'will find'. thanks mark v ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:44:55 -0800 (PST) From: Julie Morgan Subject: Re: AEL New to Egyptian Grammar To: Ancient Egyptian Language List hi anne, first let me thank you for replying and it is always good to hear from other students. I attend the university of Birmingham and am currently studying ancient history and archaeology. just finishing my dissertation but gardiner is adding to my present fragile state! The most difficult aspects of gardiner for me are the A PW sentances and "clauses". unfortunately i do not have a backgound in linguistics or modern languages which makes it all the more difficult. But i am determined to overcome this and pass my exams this summer. any help or advise - like expalining gardiner in modern english - would be wonderful ! best wishes, julie anne ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 13:50:55 +0100 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL AEL: New mailing list about JSesh Hello, For those among you who use JSesh, I'm pleased to announce that I have set a mailing list dedicated to the software. Discussions on this list might be: users desiderata request for clarification bug reports more general discussions on JSesh and hieroglyph encoding in general. The list will be moderated and archived. To subscribe, go to http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsesh-general And, BTW, a new version of JSesh with minor bug fixes is out on: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/jsesh/JSesh-install-2alpha14c.jar?download Regards, S. Rosmorduc ==============================================================================