Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:58:12 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: blochprint@zelacom.com (Julie Purple) Subject: Re: AEL IRC Date, What happened? Dear Geoff, I understand your frustration, having been in a similar "real life" position in my own area of expertise. I /you want to help, and nobody seems to care. I offer my own apologies, and blame my lack of computer-savvy. I couldn't manage to even *find* the Naos gif in time, nor could I figure out how to get to the discussion-site. And though a Naos.gif was sent to me *twice*, I can't make it show up on my screen. Something about format...??? I kept getting the message from my computer that *you can't do that*. I feel pretty stupid. I wish there were a way to meet in real-time, real life. Pencils, pens and blackboards are so much simpler... Anyhow, thank you for your attempts to help in that way. Again, I apologize for not Showing Up. Sincerely, Julie >Once again, it was my experience that I was the only one who showed up for >this date? Why does everyone sound so enthusiastic about doing such >things in their e-mails, but no one shows up in the long run? This is >doubly frustrating for me, because I had to make special arrangements to >have time to do this. I could have spent my time in other ways. >Moreover, I do not stand to gain anything by showing up, it would only be >help for others. I would be expected to "perform" on there and do my >tricks. So, I am sorry that this venture did not work out, but I do not >have time to keep putting myself out there to help others and have them >take it for granted. > >Geoff Graham >sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu > > > Julie Bloch blochprint@zelacom.com * * * (@v@) * * * ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 11:59:00 PST From: Craig Olinsky To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Looking for Book Suggestions All, Having worked my way (partially) through Gardiner, and still considering purchase of the Hoch book, I have decided to start searching out more detailed books/articles in some of the areas I am more specifically interested in. I thought I might ask here for suggestions. I am looking for works which concentrate primarily on the Hieroglyphic writing system, rather than books primarily centered on the grammar/language. That is, I am interested in studies of the use of characters logographically vs. phonetically, examinations of the use of determinatives, and punning/changes in usage and appearance over various periods. Scholarly works would be preferred over more "popular" texts, although I would prefer to start with more general works than articles dealing with one or two characters specifically. Books would also be a bit easier for me to find locally than most journals. Feel free to reply to me privately or through the list. Thanks in advance, Craig Olinsky (Craig_Olinsky@ccm.ijkk.intel.com) ----- -- not speaking for intel ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:16:40 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Adverbs and Adverbial Sentences Thanks to Stephen for this latest lesson. As usuall the full version is available on the web: http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/exercises/exercise4.html With exercise 3 posted yesterday, and this one posted today, that makes about 2 weeks' worth of exercises which should see us through to the new year. Best wishes, Mark Wilson. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:15:41 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer Reply-to: sfryer@prcn.org Organization: Lund Computer Services To: Mark Wilson Subject: Adverbs and Adverbial Sentences Geoff has asked me to keep the lessons and exercises moving ahead in his absence (since it sounds as though he won't have time to work on then for quite a while). So here is the first bit, which should keep things going for a little while at least (I hope, since I'm going to be incommunicado from Christmas to New Year). This topic is one that needs to be thoroughly digested, since it is basic to a lot of other Egyptian grammar, so if you have any doubts about any of it BE SURE TO ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS! Even if I'm out of touch, there are others on the list who can help out. ADVERBS AND THE ADVERBIAL SENTENCE ADVERBS So far we have talked about nouns, adjectives and pronouns. Now we need to talk about another part of speech: adverbs. An adverb is similar to and adjective in that it describes, or "modifies" another word. An adjective modifies a noun. An adverb modifies a verb or an adjective. They tell how or when or where something happens: He ran QUICKLY. He stayed HOME. He came YESTERDAY (At least that is the basic idea. To confuse the issue a little, there is a tendency to call words that don't fit into any of the other categories, "adverbs.") Egyptian has very few actual adverbs: aA here min today im there ADVERBIAL PHRASES Egyptian makes up for its lack of adverbial words by using adverbial phrases. An adverbial phrase is typically made up of a preposition + a noun phrase. (A noun phrase is simply a noun plus any adjectives that modify it.) We make frequent use of adverbial phrases in English too: He is IN THE HOUSE. She went TO THE STORE. They left IN A HURRY. In Egyptian we have the same sort of thing: m pr in the house r niwt to the city Hr wAt on the road m pr=k nfr in your beautiful house We also have cases where an adverbial phrase is apparently used as an adjective (that is, it modifies a noun): m dpt m wAD wr in a boat on the sea This is usually taken to be a "virtual relative clause," that is it should be understood to mean: m dpt nty m wAD wr in a boat which is on the sea This sort of thing can allow us to string adverbial phrases together to build up meanings. ADVERBIAL SENTENCES Egyptian makes a lot of use of adverbial sentences; in fact they are rather basic to understanding much of Egyptian grammar. An adverbial sentence takes one of three basic forms: iw [NOUN] [ADVERB] iw=[SUFFIX] [ADVERB] [NOUN] [ADVERB] In all cases the noun could be a noun phrase and the adverb could be an adverbial phrase. Notice that two of these types of sentence start with the particle "iw," which is not translated into English. The first type of sentence is used for stand-alone statements of fact (whether true or not!), and in fact you could consider the "iw" to indicate that a factual statement follows. Some examples of this type of sentence are: iw s.t m pr=s The woman is in her house. iw sS Hr wAt The scribe is on the road. Note that although the Egyptian sentence doesn't contain a verb, like the Adjectival Sentence, we have to stick in the copula ("is'" "are," "were," etc.) in English. The second type of sentence is very similar to the first, except that the noun subject is replaced by a suffix pronoun: iw=f m Xnw He is at home. iw=n m dpt We were in a boat. Here the particle "iw" has to do double duty as a sentence opener, and as a support for the suffix pronoun. We will return to this in a moment. The third type of structure does not start with "iw" and cannot be used as an independent sentence. It is used as a "circumstantial clause," that is a subordinate sentence which describes the circumstances in which the main sentence occurs. In English we mark our circumstantial clauses with introductory words ("conjunctions") such as "when," while," "although," "but," etc. Egyptian makes very little use of conjunctions, so you will find you have to supply them yourself when you are translating. The whole sentence structure then becomes: iw [NOUN] [ADVERB] [NOUN] [ADVERB] iw sxt.y m AH.t Hm.t=f m pr The peasant was in the field while his wife was in the house. Now if we want to use a pronoun as the subject of our circumstantial clause, we have to use the suffix pronoun supported by "iw." Unfortunately, at first, this is going to look confusingly like a main sentence, so be a little careful! iw [NOUN] [ADVERB] iw=[SUFFIX] [ADVERB] iw sxt.y m rS.wt iw=f m AH.t=f The peasant is in rejoicing when he is in his field. We could also combine this with an adjectival sentence: nfr.wy pr=i Hm.t=i im How beautiful my house is when my wife is in it! We are starting to build up some rather complex expressions here, and you may be feeling a little like stopping here. However, let me throw just one more idea at you. The infinitive in Egyptian is a noun: mr(i).t loving ii.t coming sDm hearing So if we put a preposition in front of it, we get an adverbial phrase: Hr mr(i).t upon loving (present progressive) m ii.t in coming (present progressive) r sDm to hearing (future) And if we put these into an adverbial sentence we get: iw=i Hr mr(i).t Hm.t=i I am upon loving my wife (=I love my wife.) iw sS m ii.t The scribe is in coming (=The scribe is coming.) iw sS r sDm The scribe is to hearing (=The scribe will hear) These are called "pseudo-verbal" sentences, because the Egyptian sentence doesn't contain a verb, but it is translated into English as if it did. And I believe you have seen something like that before ;-) ******************************************* You should try translating the (few) hieroglyphic exercises now, and then try to translate these sentences. 1) The scribe is in his house. 2) The peasant is at home. 3) The boat is on the sea. 4) She is in the house with her daughter. 5) The peasant is happy (=in rejoicing) when Re' is in the sky. 6) The woman is in the house baking bread while the peasant is in thefield. 7) His majesty will go to that city when the boat is on the river. 8) How sweet the taste of honey is! It is better than anything! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:16:40 +0000 Subject: AEL Message from Geoff Dear all, Just a short note. Geoff has asked me to convey his regrets to the list. He is finding that he is unable to keep up with things while he is away and has decided not to try to follow the list discussion during the holiday period. He is also "terribly sorry" that he could not get through via IRC on Sunday. The failure was unexpected as he had not experienced any problems with the IRC server when he'd tried it out before. Anyway, I think Geoff definitely deserves a rest considering the huge amount of effort that he has put into this project through the year. Regards, and seasons greetings. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:19:56 -0500 From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Nouns, Gender, & Adjectives Hello, I have finally gotten a chance to try this, so here it is. Excersise II 1. jw=j Hr sDm Hm.t=k nfr.t I hear his beatiful wife. 2. mk mw.t=Tn r jTjt jx.t jz Hey, your mother will take the light thing. 3. jw sn=f r jnj.t jH.t dSr.t His brother will bring the red cow. 4. waD xt.w=n Our trees are green. 5. bjn z3=f nDs His little brother is bad. 6. wsx Tj.t Hwt=s Wide is the table of her mansion. 7. mk nb.t pr Hr s.nm hj=s wr Look, the lady of the house is feeding her great husband. 8. jw=sn r jnj.t m-D3j.ty nfr.ty They will bring the two good books. 9. dns nbw=n mk n r jnj.t=f Our gold is heavy. Look, we will bring it. 10. wr jt.w nb= sn nfr sw Great are the fathers of our lord; good is he. On to excersise III ! Raven raven@javanet.com ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:32:19 -0500 From: "Oscar H. Blayton" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Message from Geoff Mark Wilson wrote: > > Dear all, > > Just a short note. Geoff has asked me to convey his regrets to the > list. He is finding that he is unable to keep up with things while he > is away and has decided not to try to follow the list discussion > during the holiday period. > > He is also "terribly sorry" that he could not get through via IRC on > Sunday. The failure was unexpected as he had not experienced any > problems with the IRC server when he'd tried it out before. > > Anyway, I think Geoff definitely deserves a rest considering the huge > amount of effort that he has put into this project through the year. > > Regards, and seasons greetings. > -- > Mark Wilson > weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk > http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html =============================================== APPLAUSE FOR GEOFF FOR THE TREMENDOUS EFFORT HE HAS PUT INTO THIS PROJECT. I for one still have plenty of work to do reviewing and studying what I have already received through the List. Oscar Blayton ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:57:03 -0500 From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 3: Transliteration and Translation Hi All, Here is my attempt at excersise III. I'm not sure where to find information regarding which t's are grammatical endings and which are part of the root words: Gardiner's grammar and Faulkner's dictionary/index (my only resources) don't make the distinction. I'm afraid that when I looked up a couple of examples on the word list the results weren't very helpful. Anyone have a suggestion? 1. h3j sS r k.t dp.t The scribe goes down to another boat. 2. rx ptH sxr pn Ptah knows this plan. 3. xd nDs pn r njwt jw pr m rSwt When this peasant fares downstream to the city the house is in joy. 4. wbn j`H r pt The moon shines in the sky. 5. gr sS m r` m grH The scribe is silent by day and by night. 6. jw t3 tn m rSwt r` h3 r wj3 This land is in joy when Re goes down to the sacred bark. 7. jw S r njwt tn The lake is toward this town. 8. sDm zj.t tn n sS This woman obeys the scribe. 9. jw zj jm m pr The man is there, in the house. Happy Holidays to All-I wish you much good cheer! Raven raven@javanet.com ============================================================================== From: "R Lloyd" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Message from Geoff Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:48:36 PST I want to thank Geoff for being there for all of us. Even though I was more lurker than anything on this site, I feel I learned more here,through discussions, arguments, and examples, than I have learned through reading the text books that are currently out there. Geoff, your knowledge and patience has helped many of us who are not as... experienced. You have ironed out many problem areas and provided solid materials for us to work with. We will all miss you. Richard Lloyd rilloyd@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:07:10 +0100 From: Rymaszewska To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Participles in pWestcar. Hello Hans, a thousand thanks for your examples & explanation - it is inestimable. May I wish you and all Westcarlavers a joyful and marry Christmas and a happy, successful and prosperous (LPH) New Year. Yours Grazyna Rymaszewska ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:50:29 -0500 From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Adverbs and Adverbial Sentences Hi Stephen, Here is my attempt at excersise IV- thanks for giving us something to work on over the holiday! IV 1. jw Hm=f m njwt tn His majesty is in this city. 2. jw dp.t m jtrw The boat is on the river. 3. jw sxt.y pn m 3H.t Hm.t m pr Hr ir.t t This peasant is in the field while the wife is in the house making bread. 4. jw t3 m rSwt r` m pt The land is in joy when Re` is in heaven. 5. nfr.wy pr=k pn z3=k z3.t=k jm How happy your house is when your son and your daughter are there! 6. jw=f Hr jj.t r njwt tn He is coming to this town. 1. jw sS m pr=f 2. jw sxt.y m Xnw 3. jw dp.t mHr w3D wr 4. jw=s m pr Hn` z3.t=s 5. jw sxt.y m rSwt r` m pt (nfr sxt.y r` m pt [?]) 6. jw z3.t m pr qfn t sxt.y m 3Ht 7. jw Hm=f r sbj r njwt tf dp.t m itrw 8. nDm.wy dpt bjt jw=f r jx.t nb.t Cheers! Raven ============================================================================== From: imarinov@lnd.internet-bg.bg (Ivo Marinov) To: Subject: AEL Exercise 1 Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:05:33 +0200 Hi Geoff, I wish to learn how to read hieroglyphs but I'm still at the very beginning. Thanks for providing us with yours lessons. Here are my answers: 1. iw=i Hr mAA=f I (the king) see him. 2. iw=T r s-nm=sn You (f. sing.) will feed them. 3. mk sw r iTi.t=n Look, he will take us. 4. iw=s Hr sDm=i She hears me. 5. mk wi r sDm=f Hey, I hear him. 1. mk iw=i Hr ini.t=Tn 2. n Hr s-nm=s 3. iw=sn r iTi.t=f 4. mk sy Hr mAA=f 5. mk Tn r mri.t=I 6. iw=tw Hr ini.t=sn 7. iw=sn Hr s-nm=n 8. sw r mAA=f 9. mk iw=n Hr sDm=T 10. mk sw Hr mri.t=k Regards, Ivo Sofia, Bulgaria ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:41:03 -0600 From: Christopher Jacobs To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL beloved with verily a child? mry xr ist ms ( or, for Glyph users, mr:r-i-i-A2 x:r i-s-t ms-s ) Beloved with, verily, a child Is this just a poor translation into later Middle Egyptian, an amazing coincidence, or proof that our familiar holiday greeting is derived from Ancient Egypt? Just a Christmas thought from a lurker who enjoys following the posts he can comprehend. (Geoff's new elementary lessons are a wonderfully clear elaboration on AE after several chapters of Gardiner! I have been assembling them in Adobe Pagemaker and printing them out in workbook form for easier study.) --Chris Jacobs Grand Forks, North Dakota ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:48:30 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List CC: Raven Brooke Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Adverbs and Adverbial Sentences Raven Brooke wrote: > Here is my attempt at excersise IV- thanks for giving us something to work on > over the holiday! Ummm... now that you've done all the exercises, what are you going to do. Maybe I need to make some more exercises on adverbial sentences and pseudoverbal sentences! > 3. jw sxt.y pn m 3H.t Hm.t m pr Hr ir.t t > This peasant is in the field while the wife is in the house making bread. I would translate Hm.t as "his wife" in this sort of context. > 4. jw t3 m rSwt r` m pt > The land is in joy when Re` is in heaven. Or pt could simply be "the sky" > 5. nfr.wy pr=k pn z3=k z3.t=k jm > How happy your house is when your son and your daughter are there! You skipped the "pn" (this) in your translation: try "this house of yours" > > 6. jw=f Hr jj.t r njwt tn > He is coming to this town. Oops!! I obviously wrote that too late at night. With verbs of motion, such as ii, or Sm, the preposition m is used instead of Hr to express actions in progress. So I should have written iw=f m ii.t r niwt tn Your translation is fine. However the meaning of this type of construction might be better captured by "He is on his way..." > > 1. jw sS m pr=f > > 2. jw sxt.y m Xnw > > 3. jw dp.t mHr w3D wr Looks like you couldn't decide whather to use "m" or "Hr" as the preposition here. Actually either one would work, although the Egyptians would probably have preferred "m" > > 4. jw=s m pr Hn` z3.t=s > > 5. jw sxt.y m rSwt r` m pt (nfr sxt.y r` m pt [?]) This is quite correct. Your second suggestion would mean "The peasant is good/beautiful/empty when Re' is in the sky." Maybe he only behaves himself if he thinks Re' is watching? ;-) > 6. jw z3.t m pr qfn t sxt.y m 3Ht You need to use the progressive pseudoverbal construction here. Also the Egyptians would probably have expressed it as "making bread" or "doing bread" iw s.t m pr Hr ir.t t sxt.y m AHt > > 7. jw Hm=f r sbj r njwt tf dp.t m itrw I would have used the verb Sm here (r Sm.t) though what you have is OK, but don't forget that 3rd-weak verbs have infinitives ending in "t" > 8. nDm.wy dpt bjt jw=f r jx.t nb.t The first sentence is fine, but the second has a problem. "It is better than anything," is basically an adjectival sentence, like "It is good" - nfr st. You could think of this as "It is good (compared) to anything else." Therefore we should write it: nfr st r xt nb(.t) Chances are, by the way, that an Egyptian scribe would have left the feminine ending off nb. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:29:13 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Pronunciation? I know that I can learn words, phrses, etc. in a new language much more easily if I have some way of pronouncing them. Ancient Egyptian is generally simply transliterated into a buch of consonants, which is impossible to pronounce (even for those of us wh CAN say "strc prst skrz skrk"). Quite apart from the fact that it is very msileading as to how the Egyptian language originally sounded. There are also grammatical distinctions which were carried at least partially by changes in vowels. So... I was wondering if people were interested in some hints and advice on how to pronounce this stuff in parallel with or together with the introductory lessons that Geoff (and I) have been posting? This is something that is NEVER done in introductory textbooks. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: imarinov@lnd.internet-bg.bg (Ivo Marinov) To: "'aegyptian-l@rostau.demon.co.uk'" Subject: AEL Exercise 2 Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:22:43 +0200 Geoff, I tried to translate the sentences of Exercise 2, but I'm not quite sure = about some of them. I marked them with (?). I'll be grateful if you give = the correct translations and explain them. Thanks. 1. iw=3Di Hr sDm Hm.t=3Dk nfr I hear your beautiful wife. 2. mk mw.t=3DTn iTi.t ix.t iz Look, your (pl.) mother is taking something light. 3. iw sn=3Df r ini.t iH.t dSr.t His brother will bring the red cow. (?) 4. wAD xt.w=3Dn Our trees become green. 5. bin zA=3Df nDs His little son is bad. 6. wsx Ti.w.t Hw.t=3Ds The tables in her mansion are wide. 7. mk nb.t pr Hr s-nm hi=3Ds wr Hey, the lady of the house is feeding her great husband. 8. iw=3Dsn r ini.t m-DAi.ty nfr.ty They will bring two fine books. 9. dns nbw=3Dn mk=3Dn r ini.t=3Df Our gold is heavy for us to bring. (?) 10.wr it.w nb=3Dsn nfr sw Fathers are great, their lord is good. (?) Merry Christmas! Regards, Ivo ============================================================================== From: imarinov@lnd.internet-bg.bg (Ivo Marinov) To: "'aegyptian-l@rostau.demon.co.uk'" Subject: AEL Exercise 2 Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:23:33 +0200 Hi Geoff, I wish to learn how to read hieroglyphs but I'm still at the very beginning. Thanks for providing us with yours lessons. Here are my answers: 1. iw=i Hr mAA=f I (the king) see him. 2. iw=T r s-nm=sn You (f. sing.) will feed them. 3. mk sw r iTi.t=n Look, he will take us. 4. iw=s Hr sDm=i She hears me. 5. mk wi r sDm=f Hey, I hear him. 1. mk iw=i Hr ini.t=Tn 2. n Hr s-nm=s 3. iw=sn r iTi.t=f 4. mk sy Hr mAA=f 5. mk Tn r mri.t=I 6. iw=tw Hr ini.t=sn 7. iw=sn Hr s-nm=n 8. sw r mAA=f 9. mk iw=n Hr sDm=T 10. mk sw Hr mri.t=k Regards, Ivo Sofia, Bulgaria ============================================================================== From: "YED" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Cc: Subject: AEL Thanks for Re: AEL jr.xr=k ir=k form Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:42:59 +0100 Thanks for your answer about my query Happy Christmas and Happy New Year Yves Dupont - Lyon Croix-Rousse - France nouvelles coordonnees : y-dupont@formations.net http://www.formations.net/y-dupont/ ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:48:06 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List CC: Raven Brooke Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 3: Transliteration and Translation Raven Brooke wrote: > Here is my attempt at excersise III. I'm not sure where to find information > regarding which t's are grammatical endings and which are part of the root > words: Gardiner's grammar and Faulkner's dictionary/index (my only resources) > don't make the distinction. Not everyone makes close distinctions on this (Geoff is a bit of a fanatic when it comes to such things). In the first sentence, I would perhaps use k.t because we have a distinction from the masculine ky. Dpt, I might not worry about, since it is always a feminine noun, so it would be OK to put either dp.t or dpt. I'm afraid you made some mistakes when you were representing the transliterations in ASCII, changing the order of words, and dropping some consonants out (were you trying to just work from the hieroglyphs by an chance?) > 3. xd nDs pn r njwt jw pr m rSwt > When this peasant fares downstream to the city the house is in joy. You might want to translate pr as "his house" - it depends on how you see the meaning of the sentence. Like many languages, Egyptian had a tendency to leave out possessives when they thought they were obvious (at least to them!). > 4. wbn j`H r pt This should have been "m pt" -but your translation was right. > 5. gr sS m r` m grH > The scribe is silent by day and by night. This should be "gr sS m hrw m grH" - once again your translation is fine. > 6. jw t3 tn m rSwt r` h3 r wj3 > This land is in joy when Re goes down to the sacred bark. This should be "iw tA pn m rSwt hA ra r wiA." Note that the demonstrative ("this") used is masculine ("pn") to agree with tA. The translation is fine, though you might want to say "his bark." > 7. jw S r njwt tn > The lake is toward this town. This should be "iw S m niwt tn" - The lake is in this town. You seem to be confusing "r" and "m." > 8. sDm zj.t tn n sS > This woman obeys the scribe. The word for woman is s.t (feminine form of s "man"). > > 9. jw zj jm m pr > The man is there, in the house. Once again the word for man is just "s". By the way, for working with Middle Egyptian I don't make any distinction between "s" and "z" because the Egyptians by this period couldn't tell the difference and freely substituted one for the other. > Happy Holidays to All-I wish you much good cheer! Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and a Wonderful New Year to you Raven! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:53:43 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 1 Dear Ivo, Welcome to the AEL discussion forum! Geoff is away for the holidays, but I'll see if I can comment on your answers. > 1. iw=i Hr mAA=f I (the king) see him. Correct. The hieroglyph of the Falcon on a stand can also refer to a god. > 2. iw=T r s-nm=sn You (f. sing.) will feed them. Yes. > 3. mk sw r iTi.t=n Look, he will take us. Yes. > 4. iw=s Hr sDm=i She hears me. Yes. > 5. mk wi r sDm=f Hey, I hear him. Nearly. It should be: Look, I will hear him. > 1. mk iw=i Hr ini.t=Tn Nearly. It should be: mk wi Hr ini.t=Tn Remember, mk is used here instead of iw. That's why you use a dependant pronoun for the subject. > 2. n Hr s-nm=s Almost. You should start the sentence with a particle so that the suffix pronoun has something to join on to. So it should be: iw=n Hr s-nm=s > 3. iw=sn r iTi.t=f Yes. > 4. mk sy Hr mAA=f Yes. > 5. mk Tn r mri.t=I Yes. The suffix pronoun =i should really be in lower case. > 6. iw=tw Hr ini.t=sn Yes. > 7. iw=sn Hr s-nm=n Yes. > 8. sw r mAA=f Almost. You can't start a claus with a dependant pronoun because dependent pronouns tend to have the feel of our accusative case, as well as being used in certain other situations, such as after the particle mk. So the correct sentence is: iw=f r mAA=f Now here's my question to the list. Should we be using dependent pronouns for the objects of our verbs here. For example, I think the above should be iw=f r mAA sw. Any comments? > 9. mk iw=n Hr sDm=T Almost: mk n Hr sDm=T > 10. mk sw Hr mri.t=k Yes, if the 'it' is masculine. I would probably have written mk st mri.t=k using st as the pronoun for objects rather than persons, and without the Hr which implies continuing action. I think you did very well, Ivo. There were just a few minor corrections. Best wishes, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:17:06 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: blochprint@zelacom.com (Julie Purple) Subject: Re: AEL Pronunciation? >for those of us wh CAN say "strc prst skrz skrk"). *ahem* and some who have just a weeeeeensy bit of difficulty with it.... > >I was wondering if people were interested in some hints and advice on how to >pronounce this stuff in parallel with or together with the introductory lessons >that Geoff (and I) have been posting? Yes, pleeeeeeeeeease! And blessings on your head for this! Gratefully, Julie Julie Bloch blochprint@zelacom.com * * * (@v@) * * * ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:01:27 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , OsirisList Subject: AEL MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR! I want to wish everyone on both the Ancient Egyptian Language List and the Osiris List, and especially our hosts, Mark Wilson and Marianne Luban, the very best in this Season of the year, and the very best possible new year, 1998! You have all contributed greatly to my efforts to learn about the Ancient Egyptians and their language, and have been a source of great happiness to me! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: Tokapu Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:04:53 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Pronunciation? Oh, yes, Please!! Ramona Wheeler ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:59:16 -0500 From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 3: Transliteration and Translation Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Raven Brooke wrote: > > > Here is my attempt at excersise III. I'm not sure where to find information > > regarding which t's are grammatical endings and which are part of the root > > words: Gardiner's grammar and Faulkner's dictionary/index (my only resources) > > don't make the distinction. > > Not everyone makes close distinctions on this (Geoff is a bit of a fanatic when > it comes to such things). In the first sentence, I would perhaps use k.t > because we have a distinction from the masculine ky. Dpt, I might not worry > about, since it is always a feminine noun, so it would be OK to put either dp.t > or dpt. > > I'm afraid you made some mistakes when you were representing the > transliterations in ASCII, changing the order of words, and dropping some > consonants out (were you trying to just work from the hieroglyphs by an chance?) > > > 3. xd nDs pn r njwt jw pr m rSwt > > When this peasant fares downstream to the city the house is in joy. > > You might want to translate pr as "his house" - it depends on how you see the > meaning of the sentence. Like many languages, Egyptian had a tendency to leave > out possessives when they thought they were obvious (at least to them!). > > > 4. wbn j`H r pt > > This should have been "m pt" -but your translation was right. > > > 5. gr sS m r` m grH > > The scribe is silent by day and by night. > > This should be "gr sS m hrw m grH" - once again your translation is fine. > > > 6. jw t3 tn m rSwt r` h3 r wj3 > > This land is in joy when Re goes down to the sacred bark. > > This should be "iw tA pn m rSwt hA ra r wiA." Note that the demonstrative > ("this") used is masculine ("pn") to agree with tA. The translation is fine, > though you might want to say "his bark." > > > 7. jw S r njwt tn > > The lake is toward this town. > > This should be "iw S m niwt tn" - The lake is in this town. You seem to be > confusing "r" and "m." > > > 8. sDm zj.t tn n sS > > This woman obeys the scribe. > > The word for woman is s.t (feminine form of s "man"). > > > > > 9. jw zj jm m pr > > The man is there, in the house. > > Once again the word for man is just "s". By the way, for working with Middle > Egyptian I don't make any distinction between "s" and "z" because the Egyptians > by this period couldn't tell the difference and freely substituted one for the > other. > > > Happy Holidays to All-I wish you much good cheer! > > Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and a Wonderful New Year to you Raven! > > -- > Stephen Fryer > Lund Computer Services > > ************************************************** > The more answers I find, the more questions I have > ************************************************** Hi Stephen, Thanks for the great feedback on this lesson! A humorous thing happened which helps to explain my silly errors: When I read that the excersise was based on the second lesson of Gardiner's grammar I thought I would save myself the time of copying all the glyphs from the web to work with and worked right from my notebook-without realizing that the portion of the lesson we were using had originally been a translation into hieroglyphs by me when I was barely aquainted with the language! Naturally the subsequent transliteration/translation back into English suffered somewhat in the process.If only I'd had someone to correct me in the first place... Thanks again for your help! I hope your holiday and the coming year are filled with joy. Raven ============================================================================== From: "Lynette" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Pronunciation? Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 20:00:24 +1100 Absolu-a-tootlely! (That's yes) Stephen that's a great idea. Although I was under the impression that the pronunciation of AEL was open to conjecture. And by the way, how DO you pronounce "strc prst skrz skrk"? It's been bugging me since you posted it last time! Lynette F. Watters Love is the Law. Love under will. lunetta@mountains.net.au ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 14:04:36 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Hans van Haarst Subject: AEL Westcar P11 L1-L10 Hello Westcarlover, First of all a Merry Christmas and a wonderful 1998 for everybody in this group, especially for Geoff Graham and Mike Dyall-Smith, who have done so much for this Westcar discussion. Thanks a lot ! We are on the last page ! L1 : iri.w is irr=T pA iy.t Hr-im=i What do you do ? To me do you come L2 : iw=i Hr snsn wTs.t and now I am getting involved in treason ! L1 starts with a passive sDm=f used impersonally. Then follows the interrogatory particle 'is'. So literally this means something like : "Is there being acted ?" Next follows a new sentence that consists of a nominal/emphatic sDm=f : irr=T ,the object : pA iy.t and the adverbial adjunct/vedette : Hr-im=i. L2 is a circumstantial subclause, which normally would function as the vedette/pilot term. iw is an important particle. It is a marker of time ('now' I am getting involved in treason) as well as a marker of the adverbial nature of the sentence. In iw sDm.n=f, sDm.n=f represents a circumstantial verbform with relative past tense ( relative with respect to the time of the speaker or the main sentence ). But in combination with iw it represents an absolute past tense. In relation to 'now' he has heard (relative past tense)=> he has heard (absolute past tense) Also according to the theory of Polotsky, a bare sDm.n=f is the nominal/emphatic sDm.n=f. However in iw sDm.n=f the verbform is circumstantial. So iw is also a marker of 'adverbialness' Here the construction 'iw=i Hr snsn wTs.t' is used to indicate an action that is going on (progressive aspect). L3 : aHa.n TA.n=f mHy SAi r=s Then he took a bundle of flax against her Here again we see the combination aHa.n+circumstantial sDm.n=f, which is a typical narrative verbform. L4 : aHa.n ir.n=f r=s sx.t bin.t and gave her a fierce beating. Any ideas why r=s is before sx.t bin.t ? I don't understand it because normally r=s, an adverbial adjunct comes last in a sentence. Maybe it has to be n=s ? A dative always shifts to the front of the sentence. L5 : SAs pw ir.n tA wbAy.t The maid went The construction sDm pw ir.n=f is the equivalent of aHa.n sDm.n=f. It is used here because verbs of movement like iy, Sm, SAs etc. don't have a circumstantial sDm.n=f. This construction is also used to lay stress on the dynamics of the verbal action. L6 : r ini.t n=s ikn n mw to fetch for herself a bucket of water. r+ini.t is r+infinitive of ini. Instead of the preposition Hr, r is used here. The preposition r+inf. is often used to express the purpose of the verbal action (Gardiner p. 228). Do not confuse this with the pseudo-verbal construction with r+inf (Gardiner p. 253). The dative n=s is shifted to the front of the sentence (compare L4). L7 : aHa.n iTi.n sy msH Then a crocodile seized her. The wordorder is here Verb Object Subject, and not the usual Verb Subject Object (VSO) because independent pronouns that are object shift to the front. L8 : SAs pw iry r Dd st n rdDd.t A going was done to tell this to Rededjedet This is the passive variant of SAs pw ir.n=f (Gardiner p.312) L9 : in pAy=s sn by her brother. The preposition 'in' is used to express the agens (Gardiner p. 42) In better english : Her brother went to tell it to R. L9 : gm.n=f rdDd.t Hms.ti (L10) tp=s Hr mAs.t=s ib=s Dw(.w) r x.t nb.t That he found Rededjedet was, while she sat with her head on her lap, while her heart more angry than anything. The sentence starts with a nominal/emphatic sDm.n=f form. This is followed by the object (rdDd.t). Next there are 3 adverbial adjuncts to Rededjedet : 1. Hms.ti , stative (or old perfective, pseudo-participle) 3. s. f. (Gardiner p. 234) 2. tp=s Hr mAs.t=s , pseudo-verbal construction without introductory word (Gardiner p.246) 3. ib=s Dw(.w) r x.t nb.t , pseudo-verbal construction without introductory word (Gardiner p.246) When a pseudo-verbal sentence starts with a nominal subject (here tp=s and ib=s) no introductory particle (such as iw) is needed. In this case the last adjunct shoul be the vedette. However If there are more than 1 adjunct you can often get a better translation by : "making a subordinate clause of the initial verbform and turning the clauses of circumstance into main sentences".( Polotsky, Egyptian Tenses, p. 8 ) So by applying this rule-of-thumb we get the translation : When he found Redjedet she sat with her head in her lap, while her heart was more angry then anything. Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== From: DPeregrine Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 17:26:40 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Pronunciation? Please sir, may we have more vowels? Speaking as a descendant of western European barbarians, I need those vowels to visualize! Just sticking e's in everywhere possible doesn't do it for me, especially as we seem to have some indication of other, perhaps persistent vowels in a good number of Coptic words. When an article cites names and words in consonant only format I am often left staring dully at the page for some time before it dawns on me that this is a name, place name or word with which I am actually familiar from a more vowel-rich publication. As you may perceive, I need any help I can get, and I doubt if I am alone in this. DPeregrine ============================================================================== From: imarinov@lnd.internet-bg.bg (Ivo Marinov) To: 'AEL Email List' Subject: AEL Exercise 4 Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:43:17 +0200 Hello, Although I was not familiar with many of the words in this exercise, I tried to solve it. Here is my attempt: 1. iw Hm=f m niwt tn His majesty is in this city. 2. iw dpt m itrw The boat is on the river (Nile?). 3. iw sHt.y pn m AH.t Hm.t m pr Hr iri.t t This peasant was/is in the field while (his) wife was/is making bread in the house. 4. iw tA m rS.wt ra m p.t The earth is in rejoicing when Ra is in the sky. 5. nfr.wy pr=k pn sA=k sA.t=k im This house of yours is (so) beautiful when your son and your daughter are in it. 6. iw=f Hr ii.t r niwt tn He is coming into this city. --- 1. iw sS m pr=f 2. iw sHt.y m Xnw 3. iw dpt m wAD wr 4. iw=s m pr sA.t=s Hna 5. iw sHt.y m rS.wt ra m p.t 6. iw s.t m pr Hr iri.t t sHt.y m AH.t 7. iw Hm=f r ii.t r niwt tn dpt m itrw 8. Sorry, I will need some help to translate these sentences. I don't know words like "honey", "taste" and "sweet". Regards, Ivo Marinov (imarinov@internet-bg.bg) ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:15:44 +0000 From: laura tilling To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Pronunciation? YES! YES! YES!!!!!!! Please? Laura ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:49:27 -0500 (EST) From: Amy R Annino To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Pronunciation? I for one would be excited to learn how to pronounce the words! It is often hard to learn a language without knowing the pronunciation (tried it in Welsh, didn't work with that either); saying it helps me remember it. I hope it works out and you're able to add it to the postings, but I also hope it's not too much extra work for you! -Amy ============================================================================== From: imarinov@lnd.internet-bg.bg (Ivo Marinov) To: 'AEL Email List' Subject: AEL Exercise 3 Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:51:32 +0200 Hello, I have used the holidays to do this exercise. Here are my answers: 2. rx ptH sxr pn Ptah knows this plan. 3. xd nDs pn r niw.t iw pr m rS.wt When this citizen floats (in a boat) downstream, (his) house is in joy. 4. wbn iaH m pt The moon shines in the sky. 5. gr sS m hrw m grH The scribe is silent during the day and the night. 6. iw tA pn m rS.wt hAi t wiA This land is in joy when Ra goes down to the lake (?). 7. iw S m niw.t tn The (???) is in this city. 8. sDm s.t tn n sS This woman listens to the scribe. 9. iw s im m pr The man is there, in the house. Best wishes, Ivo (imarinov@internet-bg.bg) ==============================================================================