From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.5 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:35:20 -0600 8.5 read right to left mj sxmt rnpt jdw Like Sehkmet in the year of pestilence. mj like preposition that states one thing is like another sxmt Sekhmet noun rnpt year noun jdw pestilence noun The sentence is comparing the year of pestilence to Sekhmet who is the goddess of violence. The excercise key said to see 8.14 end but I didn't get a connection. An where did the "in the" come from? Maybe just to make sense? *********************************************************** 8.5 mj sxmt rnpt jdw (Read from right to left) mj = like = primary preposition sxmt = Sekhmet = proper noun rnpt = year = noun jdw = pestilence = noun mj sxmt = like Sekhmet rnpt jdw = year of pestilence (two nouns together - direct genitive) mj sxmt rnpt jdw = like Sekhmet ... year of pestilence This has me puzzled. The answer is "like Sekhmet IN a year of pestilence" so I am not sure why 'in' is not represented by 'm' (8.2.3). In the answer Allen refers to 8.14 (end) - I could find no relevance whatsoever to this exercise. I feel sure I have missed something crucial, but what!? Does anyone know why jdw - pestilence - has the determinative for sky/above (N1)? Were all pestilences believed to originate from 'above' - eg insects? ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.6A Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:36:44 -0600 Exercise 8.6 aHa ib pw m At sAsA "He is steadfast of heart in the moment of headlong attack" aHa ib - nfr-Hr construction (steadfast of heart) pw - subject, demonstrative pronoun masc. singular m - preposition, means [when is used with time] "in", "by", "for", "during" time At sAsA - direct genitive ******************************************************************************* 8.6 P6 D36:D54 F34:Z1 Q3 G43 G17 G1 X1:Z5*N5 S29 Aa17 G1 D54 S29 Aa17 G1 D54 P6 mast p 439 phonogram aHa P6 D36:D54 (adjective) p456 =AB steadfast =BB F34 heart p430 Ideogram for jb F34:Z1 jb (noun) p 454 =AB heart =BB Q3 G43 (demonstrative pronoun) pw p458 see 5.8 G17 (preposition) m =AB in =BB see 8.2.3 G1 X1:Z5*N5 At =AB moment =BB p453 is a variante of G1 X1:F9 N5:Z1 (noun) S29 Aa17 G1 D54 S29 Aa17 G1 D54 sAsA (verb 4-lit) =AB attack headlong, push back =BB p466 transliteration: aHa jb pw m At sAsA it's a A pw sentence where A = adjective + noun , direct genitive : moment of he is steadfast of heart in the moment of headlong attack ************************************************************* Exercise 8.6 (read right to left) aHa jb pw m At sAsA -- "He/She/They is/are/was steadfast of heart at the moment of headlong attack." This sentence uses the pronoun 'm'. The first phrase is an A pw sentence: 'aHa jb pw'. 'aHa' is in the gloss as 'steadfast, and jb we know as heart. "Steadfast" is presumedly an adjective, so since it comes first, it must be used here as a noun with "heart" in a direct genitive. An 'A pw' sentence means "He/She is A" or "They are A", etc., so this is "He/She is one steadfast of heart." That phrase is modified by the prepositional phrase 'm At sAsA'. The gloss tells us 'At' means "moment"; 'm' means "in", "by", "for", or "during" in reference to time. "in the moment" makes the most sense. 'sAsA' is another noun, meaning "headlong attack", again in a direct genitive. So we have "in the moment of (the) headlong attack." Putting this together we have "He is one steadfast of heart in the moment of the headlong attack." Or, using smoothing English idiom, "She is steadfast of heart that the moment of headlong attack." ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.10 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:42:04 -0600 8.10 read right to left Xr zH n jb.k With the advice of your heart. Xr under preposition that denotes possession here translates as with zH advice noun n to, for preposition - the goal of something jb heart noun .k your 2ms personal pronoun And here is the "of" from the preposition n? ************************************************** 8.10 Xr zH n jb.k Read right to left Xr = under = primary preposition zH = advice = noun n = of = indirect genitive jb = heart = noun jb.k = your heart = noun + suffix pronoun Xr zH n jb.k = under the advice of your heart ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.2 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:31:53 -0600 8.2 - Read from right to left - smaw Xr HAt.k - smaw = Chanters - Xr HAt = Compound preposition which is a combination of a preposition and a noun. Xr = "Under" and HAt="front". "Under the front of" or "In front of" - k is a personal pronoun suffix So the meaning of the sentence is - "Chanters Under the front of you" ******************************************************** EXERCISE 8.2 V31A\-F4\:Z1*t-T28\:r-A2\:Z2-w\-a\-M26\ Sma "chanter" [Sin. B 194] Step 0 - Reverse signs orientation M26-a-w-A2:Z2-T28:r-F4:t*Z1-V31A Step A - Allen's Dictionary and Lessons Allen Dictionary: M26-a-A2-A1 = Sma (noun) "singer, chanter" T28:r = Xr (preposition, paragraph 8.2.13) "by, near, during" F4:t*Z1 = HAt (noun) "front, beginning"; rdi HAt n "head toward" (literally, "give front to"); Xr HAt "before, preceding" V31 (V31A) = .k(personal pronoun suffix) "you, your" Step B - Transliterate Smaw Xr HAt.k Step C - Translate Smaw is the plural of masculine noun Sma made with weak consonant -w and plural strokes = singers / chanters Xr is a preposition the preposition that governs the noun phrase that followsHAt.k, "It is regularly used when the noun, noun phrase, or pronoun governed by the preposition is someone of higher status" = near HAt.k is noun phrase made by the noun HAt and the pronoun suffix .k = your front Literally: chanters near your front i.e. chanters preceding you or chanters before you KEY: chanters in front of you literally "under your front" Questions 1) Are the signs V31 and V31A reallly the same, without any difference of meaning ? ============================================================================== From: "Brian Yare" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.5 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:50:21 -0000 << This has me puzzled. The answer is "like Sekhmet IN a year of pestilence" so I am not sure why 'in' is not represented by 'm' (8.2.3). In the answer Allen refers to 8.14 (end) - I could find no relevance whatsoever to this exercise. I feel sure I have missed something crucial, but what!? >> In 8.14 there is a mention of (n) in another sentence. I think we are expected to assume a (m) in our sentence. Brian ============================================================================== Subject: RE: AEL Re: Russian Egyptian Grammar Project. To Timofey Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:44:12 -0000 From: "ALBROW, Julie" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Dear Timofey, Whilst I appreciate what you are trying to do here, I think you are going the wrong way about it. It is entirely possible for a 'non-qualified' individual to write a useful text, but there is no way you are going to receive the funding/sources you require by effectively begging on a mailing list. What you need to do is put together a good proposal for what you want to achieve, how you plan on doing it and timescales. You need to research as to whether there is actually a market for your product and you are not just doing this for self-interest. Once you have put something sensible together you can email/write/contact any number of publishers to ask for their support in what you are doing. If your idea is feasible and worthwhile then the publishers will support you all the way and good universities will allow you to use their libraries for your research. I can't imagine anyone will be sending you money without a serious proposal, and unfortunately your initial email was not well-thought out at all. I am more than willing to read through any proposals you put together (I work in publishing) and offer advice, but I cannot offer to publish it myself! I can also supply you with some contact details for other people who may be able to help you. Very best wishes, and don't be disheartened or aggressive when addressing replies - people are offering you sensible advice in what is likely to be a very difficult path. Julie ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.4 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:34:02 -0600 8.4 Transliteration: pt Hr.k Translation: (the) sky above you Notes: This reads right to left, which wasn't readily apparent. But the spelling of pt, with its distinctive determinative tipped me off. This is a phrase in which the noun pt (sky) is modified by a prepositional phrase Hr.k (above you). The primary preposition Hr means "upon." Allen in the key shows "above," and although I haven't found a reference that shows that meaning specifically, the word upon implies that something is above. The object of the preposition is "you," which is indicated here as the suffix pronoun "k." ***************************************************** #8.4 Transliteration: pt Hr.k Translation: The sky above you sky - noun, object of prepostion Hr - above, primary preposition + .k - you, 2MS suffix pronoun *********************************************************** Chp 8 #4 p-t-DET-Hr-r-k contracts to: pt Hr.k where pt = sky; Hr = on/upon/above; k = you literally: sky upon/above you note: 'Hr-r' version of 'Hr' used with personal pronouns so: (a/the) sky on/above you finally: the sky above you ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.9 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:40:50 -0600 8.9 Transliteration: pXrt jrj Translation: the remedy for it Notes: This is a phrase in which the noun pXrt is modified by a prepositional nisbe jrj. The word jrj is derived from r, meaning "with respect to." It seems that the prepositional nisbe could function either as an adjective or as a noun here, I'm not sure which. Maybe others can shed some light. It could be an adjective: and if so, the phrase would mean something like "the pertaining remedy." It could be an adjective: and if so, the phrase would be two nouns in apposition and mean something like, "the remedy, the pertaining one." How can we tell which it is? Either way, the translation into English seems to be "the remedy pertaining to it," or "the remedy for it." **************************************************** #8.9 Transliteration: pXrt jrj Translation: The remedy for it remedy - noun, object of preposition jrj - for it, prepositional adverb **************************************************** Chp 8 #9 pX-r-t-DET-pl.sign-j-r-j contracts to: pXrt jrj where pXrt = remedy/prescription - I'm assuming this is a collective noun, not a plural - but I don't know how one would tell - still, the meaning would be the same; jrj - adverbial form of r (= 'with respect to') meaning 'thereto' or 'with respect to it' or 'pertaining to it' so literally: (a/the) remedy/prescription with respect to it/pertaining to it finally: the remedy pertaining to it, or, the remedy for it Note: the initial 'intestine sign' (F46) is not shown in my edition's sign list (p.430) to have a phonetic value - neither is it listed in the bilateral sign list on p.24-25 ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.8 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:39:34 -0600 #8.8 (wrSy tp jnb jmj hrw.f) wrSy - noun = watchman tp - preposition = upon, atop jnb - noun = wall jmj - prepositional nisbe = in (inherent in) hrw - noun = duty >f - suffix pronoun - 3MS = he, him, his = the watchman atop the wall in his duty ************************************************************* Exercise 8-8 ------------ transliteration: wrSy tp(j) jnb jmj hrw.f translation: the watchman on duty atop the wall (lit., the watchman who is atop the wall and who is in his duty (day)) In this exercise we have a noun, wrSy, being modified by two phrases involving prepositional nisbes. The first such phrase is tpj jnb involving the nisbe tpj and the noun jnb, "wall". This phrase can be translated by the English relative clause "who is atop the wall". The second phrase modifying wrSy is jmj hrw.f with the nisbe jmj governing hrw.f. Apparently, besides meaning "day", hrw can also have the meaning "duty". Translating this with an English relative clause, we have "who is in his duty/day". Putting it all together, we have the translation "the watchman who is atop the wall (and) who is in his duty". In more colloquial English, we have "the watchman on duty atop the wall". ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.7 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:38:21 -0600 8.7 - Read from left to right - m xt jAw n.k jmy - m = in - xt = wake or aftermath - jAw = old age - n.k jmy = "of yours" This is a special construction of a perposition with personal pronoun suffix and the nisbe (jm or jmy) which is usually used as "of me" "of yours" etc. depending on the pronoun. - meaning "In wake of the old age of yours". ********************************************** EXERCISE 8.7 M-M3:x*t-A19-n:k-i-m-i-i xt "wake, aftermath", iAw "old age" [Urk. IV, 1021, 5] Step A - Allen's Dictionary and Lessons Allen Dictionary: m (also M) = m (preposition see 8.2.3) "in" p:M3:x*t = xt (noun) "wake, train, aftermath"; m xt "after," (as a noun) "future" i-A-V1:Z4-A19-Y1 , A19 = iAwi (iAw) (noun) "old age" n = n (preposition) "to, for" k = .k (personal pronoun suffix) "you, your" m-i (also spelled i-m-i-i ) = im , imy (prepositional nisbe) "in" Step B - Transliterate m Ht iAw n.k imy Step C - Translate m xt iAw we have a preposition m that governs a noun phrase made by a direct genitive xt iAw = literally: in the wake of old age i.e. after old age n.k jmy (see 8.10) is a special construction consisting of the preposition n, a suffix pronoun, and the nisbe im (imy) that corresponds to the English construction, in this case "of you, of yours" Literally: in the wake of old age of yours i.e. in your old age, when you will be old KEY: after your own old age Literally: in the wake of the old age of yours ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 8.3 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:32:52 -0600 #8.3 (hr wat nt wart) - read from right to left hr - preposition = upon, on wat - noun = road, way nt - (this one confused me, it must be a preposition - it must be 'of') wart - noun - object = flight = upon the path of flight ************************************** Exercise 8-3 ------------ transliteration: Hr wAt nt wart translation: on/upon the path of flight This is a prepositional phrase consisting of the preposition Hr followed by the noun phrase wAt nt wart. This noun phrase is an indirect genitive involving wAt, "path", and wart, "flight", and specifies the kind of path in question. There are a few viable possibilities for translating the preposition Hr into English depending on the context of the Egyptian phrase (particularly the sentence in which the phrase appears) and the idiomatic tendencies of the translator. Since we are talking about a path (literal or figurative), "on" or "upon" are likely good choices. Other possibilities might include "at" or "onto". ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.1 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:30:41 -0600 Exercise 8.1 nfr tw Hna.j "You are good with me" This is an adjectival sentence (with adjective first - nfr). tw is the subject (which always follows the adj. predicate) - dependent pronoun 2MS. Object of preposition is personal pronoun (1S - "I, me") - suffix form is always used. Can [here] tw be also demonstrative pronoun feminine singular, meaning "this"? "This is good with me"??]. ******************************************************************************************** 8.1 The seated man look left to right, to the beginning of the text. So we read right to left. F35 I9:D21 X1:Z7 V28 N35:D36 A1 Sin B31 : = http://www.cwru.edu/univlib/preserve/Etana/notes_story_sinuhe/chapter2p2.pdf F35 is heart and windpipe, phonogram nfr p430 I9 and D21, horned viper , phonogram f p433 and mouth phonogram r p427, are phonetic complement. X1 Z7 is the pronoun tw p470, Z7 curl of rope . V28 N35 D36 is the preposition Hna A1 , the seated man is pronoun suffix 1S .- nfr tw Hna.j pronoun tw 2ms 7.3 follow the adjectival predicate nfr Hna.j with me 8.4 preposition You are good with me. ************************************************************************ Exercise 8.1 (read right to left) nfr tw Hna.j -- "You are good with me." Literally this is "good you with me." 'nfr' is an the adjective meaning good, beautiful, etc. and 'tw' is the dependent 2nd person masculine pronoun. (It can't be tw the demonstrative pronoun because that's feminine and nfr is masculine.) 'Hna' is the preposition meaning "together with", etc. and it's followed by the first person signular suffix pronoun. So that's the phrase "together with me." But what is 'nfr tw'? If it's an A B sentence, then, according to section 7.12(1) it should be 'ntk nfr' with the *independent* pronoun coming first. So that can't be it. The only phrase we've studied where a dependent pronoun can follow an adjective is an adjectival sentence (section 7.3--I had to review this, but indeed we find 'nft tw' right there as an example). So this part is a sentence meaning "You are good." Together, 'nfr tw Hna.j' means "You are good together with me." Allen uses "well" instead of "good" in the key, perhaps in deference to the adverb vs. adjective debate on those two words in English predicates. ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL Re: Russian Egyptian Grammar Project. To Julie To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:43:22 +0300 Dear Julie! I am going to write my grammar for about two years or one year and a half. I am going to work a lot, translate new texts, study new grammars. I need money to live while I write it, to buy necessary books, and to edit it after writing. My market - whole Russia, actually, all people in Russia who wants to know Egyptian, all people such as I - non professional Egyptologist. There is no good Egyptology library in Omsk. I don't think that I will be supported by publishers since I am not professional Egyptologist. But anyway thank you for advice, I should try. Many thanks for your help Truly yours, Timofey Shmakov ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:36:46 -0800 (PST) From: E M Subject: AEL Allen Exercise 8.5 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk In 8.14 Allen explains that time nouns can be used adverbially i.e. they don't need a preposition. For example, in the sentence 'that is enough for today' 'today' is a noun (and 'for' is a preposition), but in 'I saw her today' it is an adverb and no preposition is needed. In English (for some reason) you might say 'I met him last year', but you cannot say 'I met him last year of my studies' - it should be 'I met him _during_ the last year of my studies.' I don't know why such diffirence exists in English (it does not exist e.g. in Russian or in Finnish), but apparently in Egyptian when dealing with time nouns you never need a preposition. So you can equally well say "like Sekhmet last year" and "like Sekhmet [in] the year of pestilence". Hope that was correct and not too rambling. My advice is try not to think in English too much ;-) Cheers, Elena Moltchanova ============================================================================== From: "Nick Mills" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.5 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:22:57 -0000 My understanding is that Allen is refering to the second paragraph of 8.14. rnpt jdw is a noun phrase of time, used here as an adverb. Egyptian does not need to preceded rnpt by a preposition, such as m, in order to make this into an adverb; in English we need to supply a word like 'in. Also, the (n) in the last paragraph of 8.14 is not a preposition. It is the first consonant of nswt (king). Allen has placed it in brackets because the writing M23-X1-A40 does not include a sign with the phonetic value 'n'. Nick ============================================================================== From: labores@azboss.net To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:53:52 -0700 Subject: AEL Help with some AE words I'm strictly a noob with this but I'm trying to find aliterations or AE words for 'striker' (he who strikes) and 'shrike'. A shrike is a non-raptorian bird (perhaps it is a form of a raptor but very small) that impales its prey on thorns or other sharp objects. I've seen them along the Nile on a few occasions but I don't know that they were there during the AE era. I have Gardiner and was able to look up 'strike' but not sure how that would be pronounced or 'spelled'. Thnx for your help. Leo D. Bores, M.D. Medical Research Director Ophthalmic International, Inc. voice: 480-837-6810 FAX: 480-837-6870 ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:52:09 -0800 (PST) From: Chip Jones Subject: Re: AEL Help with some AE words To: Ancient Egyptian Language List My Egyptian and Coptic soundexes will find those words for you. Download them from my website: http://members.cox.net/intruder1400/index.htm. They are used with Microsoft Excel and Access. You must copy the specialized Coptic and Egyptian fonts into Control Panel "fonts" first. Everything is there waiting for you. Charles Jones, M.Div. Las Vegas, NV> Member ARCE labores@azboss.net wrote: I'm strictly a noob with this but I'm trying to find aliterations or AE words for 'striker' (he who strikes) and 'shrike'. A shrike is a non-raptorian bird (perhaps it is a form of a raptor but very small) that impales its prey on thorns or other sharp objects. I've seen them along the Nile on a few occasions but I don't know that they were there during the AE era. I have Gardiner and was able to look up 'strike' but not sure how that would be pronounced or 'spelled'. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 23:48:08 -0800 From: Ralph Giles To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.9 On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 01:40:50AM -0600, kmotc wrote: > pXrt jrj > It could be an adjective: and if so, the phrase would mean something like "the pertaining remedy." > > It could be an adjective: and if so, the phrase would be two nouns in apposition and mean > something like, "the remedy, the pertaining one." > > How can we tell which it is? I found this one really confusing as well. Allen gives "pertaining to" as the meaning of jrj, so I don't see where the final "it" in the answer key comes from. The nisbe doesn't govern anything and seems to be just used on it's own. Is the meaning more like "pertinent remedy"? Can anyone offer some insight into this, or other examples of a prepositional nisbe standing alone as an adjective? -r ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 07:43:34 -0500 From: David Muller To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.9 Ralph Giles wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 01:40:50AM -0600, kmotc wrote: > > >>pXrt jrj > > >>It could be an adjective: and if so, the phrase would mean something like "the pertaining remedy." >> >>It could be an adjective: and if so, the phrase would be two nouns in apposition and mean something >>like, "the remedy, the pertaining one." >> >>How can we tell which it is? > > > I found this one really confusing as well. Allen gives "pertaining to" > as the meaning of jrj, so I don't see where the final "it" in the answer > key comes from. The nisbe doesn't govern anything and seems to be just > used on it's own. Is the meaning more like "pertinent remedy"? > > Can anyone offer some insight into this, or other examples of a > prepositional nisbe standing alone as an adjective? > > -r > > With regards to the original poster's question, there is effectively no difference between looking at jrj as an adjective modifiying pXrt and considering it a noun in apposition to pXrt. In fact, non-primary adjectives are basically nominal (Loprieno, p. 56: "Egyptian adjectives are syntactically treated as substantives [noun or noun equivalent]. Nouns can function as appositions to a preceding noun ... when used attributively, adjectives follow the modified noun."). Both of your translations convey the same information. "the remedy, the pertinent one" more accurately reflects the syntax of the Egyptian phrase, while "the pertinent remedy" is a more natural English translation. With regards to Ralph's questions, I think part of the problem is that nisbes do not have a direct analogue in English. Allen gives the *rough* translation "pertaining to" (a compound preposition) for jrj (which is not a preposition). If one translates the Egyptian phrase by direct substitution, you obtain "remedy pertaining to". But this isn't a good English translation because we need an object for the preposition. Presumably, the ailment that remedy is for has been defined previously in the text, so we can simply use "it" to complete the translation. One doesn't have to be confined to the "translations" that Allen gives for the prepositions, the adverbs derived from the prepositions, and the nisbes. He is merely giving the sense of what the words mean. I believe the meaning of the phrase in this exercise is very much like "pertinent remedy" and may even be a "better" translation than Allen's depending on the context and how you would have translated the surrounding the text. Regards, Dave ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 12:11:36 -0600 From: Allise Garrison Subject: Re: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY HMWK COLLATION 8.9 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List I'll own up to being the original puzzled poster. And of course I should have said in the second paragraph - it could be a noun. Allise Garrison alliseg@everestkc.net ==============================================================================