From: "Brian Yare" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL GlyphStudy: 1.2b - Exercise's solution is wrong ? Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:25:50 +0100 I have been in correspondence with James Allen today, and he agrees that there is an error in the book in exercise 1.2b. The error is in the answer, not the question. "The nb-sign should go above the tA-sign." M23-t:R4 X8 E16 D1*N26:f i Z11 w t*Aa2:O49 V30:N16 D45:N25 Furthermore, he is prepared to help us with further questions, provided that we have made a reasonable attempt at resolving them ourselves. This appears to be a very generous offer, and we must not abuse it. James also says that he is still a member of AEL, but does not give it as much attention as he used to, due to other commitments. Brian Yare ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: GlyphStudy: 1.2b - Exercise's solution is wrong ? Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 15:04:15 -0500 Em htp Michelle, I concur with you, and with Brian, that if we strictly follow the rules given in the text respecting word order, then V30 (nb)=basket with no handle glyph would come before theN16 (tA)=strip of land, because the glyphs are facing RIGHT in this example, and the text instructs us that we should place the glyph that comes first on the top when we are dealing with "flat" signs. See ~1.7 in Allen. FOR A HELPFUL REMINDER ON WHICH DIRECTION TO READ GLYPHS: READ INTO THE FACES. However, I also think there is another principle at work here which accounts for the discrepancy between the textbook explanation and the key, and that is the principle of "BALANCE." Aesthetics seem to play a large part in how signs are arranged, and so I think that the heftier sign "looks" better on the bottom and that is how the Egyptians would have preferred to place it, and Allen's text is reflecting this principle. You do see this in Allen from time to time, where larger signs get moved to the bottom, though I cannot give you an example right now. best, Karen ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 14:13:31 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL GlyphStudy: 1.2b - Exercise's solution is wrong ? michele wrote: > At page 473 there is the answer to the exercise, > I don't agree with the solution for the last but one group (starting > reading from right) where the sign N16 is arranged over the sign V30 > I think that is the opposite and that the sign V30 has to > go upper the sign N16. Is it right ? or no ? The correct sequence/arrangement is indeed V30:N16 D45:N25 (though there would usually be a couple of deteminatives under the N16 V30:N16:N21*Z1 D45:N25 ) -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Brian Yare" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Re: GlyphStudy: 1.2b - Exercise's solution is wrong ? Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:43:48 +0100 << However, I also think there is another principle at work here which accounts for the discrepancy between the textbook explanation and the key, and that is the principle of "BALANCE." Aesthetics seem to play a large part in how signs are arranged, and so I think that the heftier sign "looks" better on the bottom and that is how the Egyptians would have preferred to place it, and Allen's text is reflecting this principle. >> Nice try, and certainly this does happen in many texts. But, in this case, James Allen says that there is an error in the answer to this question. Brian Yare ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL BEGIN LESSON 2 TOMORROW-- AND COMPLETE BY SUNDAY JULY 10 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:21:29 -0500 Em htp gang, We are beginning Lesson 2 tomorrow. We will be spending slightly less time--one day short of a week on this lesson, since we have had much of the material already and we are one day short in America (caught myself that time) due to the holiday weekend. ( : Please learn the pronunciation as presented by Allen in ~2.6 page 18 and don't be overly concerned about getting it absolutely correct. Sounding out words can aid in the memorization of vocabulary, but we need not concern ourselves overmuch with how we sound. You will never be tested on your speaking skills, and if you go on to take classes at a university, acquiring the standard Egyptological pronunciation will do you the most good, whereas trying to recreate ancient Egyptian as accurately as possible--will only leave you unable to speak to your scholarly peers and still unable to speak to the ancient Egyptians *wink*. You will all approach this issue as you are inclined, but my advice is not to stress over pronunciation. Things that stand out for notetaking: ~2.6 on pronunciation, 2.7 possibly on Transcription (you might learn this for now and consult it in the future as it does not really come up again) ~2.8 on Writing conventions and sound changes, especially Weak Consonants--the consonants that go missing will vex you no matter what, but if you can learn to anticipate them it is helpful. Post all your Grammar and homework Questions here on AEL. If you are inclined to discuss Pronunciation--do so on GlyphStudy. Since Luca's updated site is down, if anybody still needs the Flashcard Program for Windows, please email me directly and I will upload it for you at YouSendIt. Use this time to brush up on your Monoliterals/Uniliterals, learning them in order, writing them, dreaming about them, and so on. In Lesson 3 we will get into using the dictionary in earnest, and you will need your skills. We will also have many more problems in Lesson 3 and in future Lessons, so will also begin dividing them up in smaller sections to be due by a certain date. Please try to stick to the schedule as best as you can. We will be moving more slowly in Lesson's 4 and especially 5 but I do not want to give long assignments--two or three weeks to do a lesson or half a lesson and just leave folks on their own, because experience tells me folks will only procrastinate. If you do find we are moving too quickly, that jobs and children and other concerns don't allow you to keep the pace then we can modify the schedule if it's a problem. For now I think the lessons are easy enough we can do them in a week or so. When we move into more difficult material, I will ask for feedback on pacing from the entire study group. best, Karen ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL GlyphStudy: 1.2b - KEY IS INDEED WRONG and WE MOVE TO LESSON 2 TOMORROW Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 17:20:37 -0500 Well, it's official then Exercise 1.2b should be written out with nb over tA. My aesthetics argument is not in accordance with the book's author--so I respectfully concur While I am taking up space in your mailboxes. Were there any other questions about Lesson 1? We will be moving on to Lesson 2 tomorrow. best, Karen ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:34:45 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela (l. 11-12) Let's go on with Merenptah : l. 11 : xfa nAy=sn wHy Xr st-rA=f Their hamlets have been captured under his autority bn kA.t n fAi xni ? m nAy hrw the work of bringing loot (for them) (?) is not in these days ; fA xni : the WB III, 287, 2 gives the unsure translation "bear a burden". I think in this case, the "burden" is loot. Aside from the unsure meaning of xni, one can remark the use of a negative adverbial sentence. Ax kp, iw=tw wDA.0 m tA bgrt It's useful to hide, one being safe in the cave bgrt : Hoch, semitic words num. 143 (p.113) and num. 228. "Cave", typically an hidding place. "iw=tw...." : the "iw" there is the Late Egyptian circumstantial "iw", which introduce... a circumstantial sentence. wDA.0 is an old perfective (I write the .0 to express that there is no desinence). pA nb aA n km.t The great lord of Egypt, wsr (12) nx.t ny-sw power and victory belong to him A rather ME construct. "ny-sw" tends to always come firts in LE. nim aHAwy Hr rx wstn=f ? who fights, when he learns how he (the king) strides. Cleft sentence, with "Hr rx..." as an unmarked circumstantial. wstn=f : lit. "his striding". I translated "when he learns...", and not "knowing", which would have required the use of an old perfective, not an infinitive. Another hypothesis I had was "who fights while being able to out-stride him", with =f being used as a direct object. Grammatically, it's more Late Egyptian, and I have a few examples of "Hr rx" meaning "being able to". But "wstn", when used transitively, is only known with the meaning "to use something freely". Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "A.P.de Visser" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela (l. 11-12) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:03:31 +0200 I am very glad with the proceedings of Merenptahs heroic activities. Concerning this I have a small question for Serge: 1.11 I wonder if also could be ,which might mean instead of your.This is also the translation I found in the ANET,namely . Kind regards Bram ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROSMORDUC Serge" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:34 AM Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela (l. 11-12) > Let's go on with Merenptah : > > l. 11 : > xfa nAy=sn wHy Xr st-rA=f > Their hamlets have been captured under his autority > > bn kA.t n fAi xni ? m nAy hrw > the work of bringing loot (for them) (?) is not in these days ; > > fA xni : the WB III, 287, 2 gives the unsure translation "bear a > burden". I think in this case, the "burden" is loot. > Aside from the unsure meaning of xni, one can remark the use of a > negative adverbial sentence. > > > Ax kp, iw=tw wDA.0 m tA bgrt > It's useful to hide, one being safe in the cave > > bgrt : Hoch, semitic words num. 143 (p.113) and num. 228. "Cave", > typically an hidding place. > "iw=tw...." : the "iw" there is the Late Egyptian circumstantial "iw", > which introduce... a circumstantial sentence. > wDA.0 is an old perfective (I write the .0 to express that there is no > desinence). > > pA nb aA n km.t > The great lord of Egypt, > > wsr (12) nx.t ny-sw > power and victory belong to him > > A rather ME construct. "ny-sw" tends to always come firts in LE. > > nim aHAwy Hr rx wstn=f ? > who fights, when he learns how he (the king) strides. > > Cleft sentence, with "Hr rx..." as an unmarked circumstantial. > wstn=f : lit. "his striding". > > I translated "when he learns...", and not "knowing", which > would have required the use of an old perfective, not an infinitive. > Another hypothesis I had was > "who fights while being able to out-stride him", > with =f being used as a direct object. Grammatically, it's more Late > Egyptian, > and I have a few examples of "Hr rx" meaning "being able to". But > "wstn", when used > transitively, is only known with the meaning "to use something freely". > > Regards, > > S. Rosmorduc > ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 15:29:25 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela (l. 11-12) A.P.de Visser a écrit : >I am very glad with the proceedings of Merenptahs heroic activities. >Concerning this I have a small question for Serge: >1.11 >I wonder if also could be ,which might mean instead of >your.This is also the translation I found in the ANET,namely >. > >Kind regards Bram > > It's definitly a possibility, as the group f+x looks better when written x:f. (and BTW, I should have translitterated xf anyway; the verb is listed in Lesko as "xfy", "to capture, to plunder" (listed with the orthography x:f-V12:D40), but it might be in fact the verb fx (according to L'année lexicographique : unbind, deprive of, dismantle, devastate, capture, leave a place. As the "a" I undully added shows, I thought of "xfa", grasp. ============================================================================== From: "msv" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Merneptah Stela (l. 11-12) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:12:47 +0100 I would also like to ask Serge................. In line 11, what are the references for 'st-rA' meaning "authority". In my (english language) dictionaries 'st-r' means 'utterance' while 'st-Hr' means authority. In line 12, could 'wstn =f ' also mean "he [i.e. the King] is unhindered" ? mark v ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:50:46 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela (l. 11-12) msv a écrit : > I would also like to ask Serge................. > > In line 11, what are the references for 'st-rA' meaning "authority". > In my (english language) dictionaries 'st-r' means 'utterance' while > 'st-Hr' means authority. > I probably mixed the two. A quick research in a few dictionnaries gave : Hannig, GHWB "Xr s.t-rA=f" "unter seiner Befehlsgewalt stehen". Annee Lexicographique. 78.3249 : discourse, decision Wb. IV, 4,11 : according to his will > In line 12, could 'wstn =f ' also mean "he [i.e. the King] is > unhindered" ? > > > mark v Yes. The basic meaning of wstn is "to walk freely". Regards, Serge ============================================================================== From: SAINT ANTONIN Francois 154125 To: "'AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk'" Subject: AEL 'middle-egyptian' versus 'old-egyptian' ? Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:54:17 +0200 Hi, Does anyone can explain (with examples ?) what are the differences between what is called "middle egyptian" in the Faulkner dictionnary and the older form of the Egyptian language ? Regards, Fran=E7ois ============================================================================== From: LawyerMan1234@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:32:51 EDT Subject: Re: AEL 'middle-egyptian' versus 'old-egyptian' ? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Dear Francois: Re: the distinctions between old and middle Egyptian The following explanation is incomplete at best, and I am sure that many others on AEL can give you more insight, but that said, Allen's Middle Egyptian mentions many small points of difference. Some verb forms (such as the stative) were employed somewhat differently in old Egyptian. Old Egyptian employed many constructions (such as those using the negative relative adjective jwtj) which were not commonly used in Middle Egyptian. The negation "nn" was written "n(j)" (albeit sometimes with an "n" sign as a phonetic compliment. All in all, I don't think the differences between Old and Middle Egyptian were dramatic. If you can read Middle Egyptian, you can probably use that to decipher a fair amount of Old Egyptian (although I am not sure whether the reverse is true). I hope this is of some marginal help, until someone else can address your question more fully. John Corridan ============================================================================== From: To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL 'middle-egyptian' versus 'old-egyptian' ? Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:27:05 -0500 Hello! There are two basical diferences between old and midle egyptian: Phonetical -T changes to -t ex. Tw > tw "thou" "thee" -D changes to -d ex. sDm > sdm "to hear" Grammatical Verbal forms Wide use of prospective and perfect in old egyptian, changes in middle egyptian to pseudo verbal construction Dd-f (pros.) > iw-f r Dd "he is going to say" Independent prononouns Important changes, exx. Twt > ntk "thou" stt > ntt "she" swt > ntf "he" ==============================================================================