Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 09:35:48 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Hans van Haarst Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9 / L16-17 At 00:17 28-11-97 UT, Mark wrote: >P9 / L16 >m a.t xtm.ti r iw.t=n Hr xnti.w mHw.t.y.w > >in a chamber that is locked, until we return from a matter in the north > >P9 / L17 >aHa.n rdi.n=sn pA it m a.t xtm.ti > >Then they placed the corn in a chamber that was locked > Hi, Mark About the verbform xtm.ti in L16 and L17. I think that this is a classical example of the prospective participle. Translation of a.t xtm.ti : " the room that can be locked ". There were several rooms in the house, but here the room that had a lock was meant ( restrictive use of the participle ). On the other hand if you consider xtm.ti to be a stative, then the translation would be : " a room that is locked " ( descriptive use of the adverbial adjunct ) A room has to be opened before it can be locked, so I think xtm.ti is a prospective participle. It is a minor point and I agree with the rest of your translation. Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:05:17 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Hans van Haarst Subject: AEL Westcar L23-L27 Hello to everybody, Here are my trials of L23-L27 L23 : aHa.n Dd.n rdD.t tm.tw ms in.w Hnw Hr-m Then Rededjedet said : " Why then are the jars not brought ? " L24 : aHa.n Dd.n tA wbA.t nfr pw smnx aA Then the maidservant said : " Good is it to clean up here, " L25 : wpw-Hr pA it ( L26) n nn xny.t iw=f m a.t Hr(yt) xtm=sn " except the barley of these dancers, which is in the room with their locks on it " A strange answer of the maid. You could also consider nfr pw to be the seldom used negative expression : It is not (Gardiner p. 265 ), then the translation could be : " It is not ( possible ) to clean up here, ..." Both answers i don't understand so maybe there is a sentence missing; nfr pw begins at a new line. I added (yt) to Hr(yt) because i think that here the room and not a room with their locks is meant. Hryt is the adjective which restricts the sentence. But i am not sure. Any comments please. Maybe all the maid wanted to say was : " Well , I can clean up this room but not the room with the barley because it is locked. " L27 : aHa.n Dd.n rdD.t hA in im=f Then Rededjedet said : " Go (down) and fetch some of it, " Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 10:55:07 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Hans van Haarst Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9, lines 18-22 At 21:54 29-11-97 +1100, you wrote: > REGARDING Westcar P9, lines 18-22 >L21-22: aHa.n Dd.n=s iw=f s-spd.w m bw-nb nfr wpw-Hr hn.w ni ini.tw > "Then she said, "It is prepared beautifully everwhere except for the >jars that were brought." > >Note: What is going on in the last part of the sentence? Is it something like >".. the jars of one's bringing"? Hi, Mike Nice of you to cover so many lines at once. I will do my best to cover also a few lines so that maybe we can 'take it out' before Xmas :-) L 22 : n ini.tw This a case i think where the suffix pronoun sn is dropped. So L 22 should read : n ini.tw=sn. Borghouts calls this phenomenon 'pro-drop' ( pronoun dropping ) in his grammar ( p. 139 ). But i don't know if this is a general accepted name. The translation : " (they) were not brought ". Was this maybe meant to express the supposed lesser knowledge of good Middle Egyptian by the maidservant ? Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 23:53:30 UT From: "mark vygus" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk, "Hans van Haarst" Subject: RE: AEL Westcar L23-L27 I agree that line 24 is difficult. Faulkner (page 228 under smnx) says that nfr pw smnx aA means "there is no doing any good here" which doesn't help me at all !! Mark Vygus ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:39:14 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Academic Crunch Period Hi, Just a quick note to say that I am temporarily out of commission regarding internet activity. I have the end of a semester with which to deal. This means writing papers, grading exams and papers, etc... I am sorry I cannot keep up with you for now, but carry on, by all means. As for the private notes I owe, know that I will get to them as soon as I can. Oh, and I will not have a "game" this week either. For this I am sorry. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:28:40 -0500 (EST) From: SDmtwi@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL AEgyptian Religion Hello all, I'm a new addition to this list, but I've been reading the archives for a couple of months now. Someday when I'm beyond Gardiner's lesson V, I'll try my hand at some translation. For now, I'm just asking for advice. I'm trying to start a library of books about the religion of ancient Egypt. Where would be the best place to start? I'm much less interested in embalming techniques and the Hall of Two Truths than I am in everyday practice, and the sociology of the Egyptian cult. Also, I'm particularly interested in the development of the concept of the divine king over the course of time. Thank you in advance, Conrad ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:59:31 -0500 (EST) From: LRSSERV@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Help! Hieroglyph software need. Hello, My name is Anne, and I am interested in finding a software program For my husbands PC. Iam not a student of egyptian language but my Husband is. The holiday season is coming and i know that he would really enjoy a program that would allow him to work with the hieroglyphs. Anyone who can direct me to this type of software please leave info at the posted email address. Please put my name Anne on it. Thank you for your help. HAPPY HOLIDAYS. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:32:15 -0800 (PST) From: xyla phlox Subject: Re: AEL AEgyptian Religion To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Cc: Bridget Johnson Welcome! I am a fresh addition to the list also, and am primarily interested in translation. I do not pretend to know a lot about the AEgyptian Religion except what fragments i have accumulated from The Book of the Dead, The Papyrus of Ani. In my opinion, a definite must for your library. I also have the desire to start a library of books on translation. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Yours, Bridget Johnston ---SDmtwi@aol.com wrote: > > Hello all, > I'm a new addition to this list, but I've been reading the archives > for a couple of months now. Someday when I'm beyond Gardiner's lesson V, > I'll try my hand at some translation. For now, I'm just asking for advice. > I'm trying to start a library of books about the religion of ancient > Egypt. Where would be the best place to start? I'm much less interested in > embalming techniques and the Hall of Two Truths than I am in everyday > practice, and the sociology of the Egyptian cult. Also, I'm particularly > interested in the development of the concept of the divine king over the > course of time. > > Thank you in advance, > Conrad > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 15:49:27 -0800 From: Ron Fellows To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Help! Hieroglyph software need. Anne: Here you are! Simulsoft, Box 3494, Scottsdale, AZ 85271-3094 publishes hieroglyphic software called GlyphScribe. Al Kanda, the publisher, can be reached at ALKANDA@compuserve.com Al is based in Arizona and can probably get it to you quickest. I have three hieroglyphic programs and use and like GlyphScribe best. Your husband will love it! Happy Days, Ron Fellows, CM, Editor, The Glyph RSSERV@aol.com wrote: > > Hello, My name is Anne, and I am interested in finding a software program > For my husbands PC. Iam not a student of egyptian language but my > Husband is. The holiday season is coming and i know that he would > really enjoy a program that would allow him to work with the > hieroglyphs. > Anyone who can direct me to this type of software please leave info > at the > posted email address. Please put my name Anne on it. > > Thank > you for your help. > > HAPPY > HOLIDAYS. ============================================================================== From: "Roxana Flammini" To: "AEL List" Cc: Subject: AEL On the p`t Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:43:44 -0300 Dear Listmembers: I need information (bibliography) on the social, economical or political condition of the p`t that appear mentioned in the Hymns to king Sesostris III (M.K.). Thanks! Roxana Flammini ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:07:41 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Help! Hieroglyph sof To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL Help! Hieroglyph software need. If he wants to typeset hieroglyphs, as distinct from learning them, then the two major players in the field are: Glyph for windows Inscribe I have a mac and use 'MacScribe' the roughly equivalent program to Glyph. Perhaps the Glyph users would like to comment but I can say that MacScribe is fantastic, has an enormous font as its basic set, and you can upgrade to buy and even more enormous set. It is sold via the CCER (Centre for Computer-aided Egyptological Research), an influential and highly regarded university centre in the Netherlands. You can check out the program (or order it, enquire, etc.) at the following web address: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/ccer_newton.html Inscribe is sold by Saqqara Technologies (?) in the UK. Sorry, I don't know their address but someone on the list surely uses it. Best wishes, Mike D-S Melbourne -------------------------------------- Date: 4/12/97 9:14 AM To: Michael Dyall-Smith From: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hello, My name is Anne, and I am interested in finding a software program For my husbands PC. Iam not a student of egyptian language but my Husband is. The holiday season is coming and i know that he would really enjoy a program that would allow him to work with the hieroglyphs. Anyone who can direct me to this type of software please leave info at the posted email address. Please put my name Anne on it. Thank you for your help. HAPPY HOLIDAYS. ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by muwayf.unimelb.edu.au with SMTP;4 Dec 1997 09:13:12 +1100 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net) by muwayb.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (PMDF V5.1-8 #24554) with SMTP id <01IQRRAUSJ5W000EA7@muwayb.ucs.unimelb.edu.au> for Michael_Dyall-Smith@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:13:02 +1100 Received: from rostau.demon.co.uk ([194.222.22.205]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa1014255; Wed, 03 Dec 1997 21:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from relay-6.mail.demon.net by rostau.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA881184783 ; Wed, 03 Dec 1997 21:33:03 +0000 Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk id 881182776:05:18383:0; Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:59:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mrin46.mx.aol.com ([198.81.19.156]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0518349; Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin46.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA07458 for AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk; Wed, 03 Dec 1997 15:59:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 15:59:31 -0500 (EST) From: LRSSERV@aol.com Subject: AEL Help! Hieroglyph software need. Sender: owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Reply-to: Ancient Egyptian Language List Message-id: <971203155930_222876486@mrin46.mail.aol.com> ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:47:05 -0500 (EST) From: BisnoCC@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Help! Hieroglyph software need. InScribe. Details are in an ad in KMT. I have used it for some time to write materials for my hieroglyphs students and it's really good and easy to use, both on Windows 3.1 and 95. If I can do it, anyone can do it. Left to right, right to left rubrics, the whole enchilada, as the Pharaohs used to say. The best part is using it on an airplane on your laptop. It impresses the spreadsheet crowd. I think it costs around $125. Loads easily and prints nicely, too. Ask me if you need any more information. Jay Bisno Culver City ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 06:51:23 -0800 From: "Kasia & Malcolm Jarrett (www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/egyptology/Szpak/kasia.html)" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AEgyptian Religion Hi! I always recommend Erik Hornung's works as a great place to start if you're the least bit serious. Both "Conceptions of God: the One and the Many", as well as "Idea into Image." Another good book is "Religion in Ancient Egypt," edited by Byron Shafer. All of these I believe are easily available from Eisenbraun's. They have a web site if you don't already know about them: http://www.eisenbrauns.com/ Have fun! --Kasia xyla phlox wrote: > > Welcome! > I am a fresh addition to the list also, and am primarily interested in > translation. I do not pretend to know a lot about the AEgyptian > Religion except what fragments i have accumulated from The Book of the > Dead, > The Papyrus of Ani. In my opinion, a definite must for your library. > I also have the desire to start a library of books on translation. Any > suggestions are greatly appreciated. > Yours, Bridget Johnston > > ---SDmtwi@aol.com wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > I'm a new addition to this list, but I've been reading the > archives > > for a couple of months now. Someday when I'm beyond Gardiner's > lesson V, > > I'll try my hand at some translation. For now, I'm just asking for > advice. > > I'm trying to start a library of books about the religion of > ancient > > Egypt. Where would be the best place to start? I'm much less > interested in > > embalming techniques and the Hall of Two Truths than I am in everyday > > practice, and the sociology of the Egyptian cult. Also, I'm > particularly > > interested in the development of the concept of the divine king over > the > > course of time. > > > > Thank you in advance, > > Conrad > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================== From: doxey@sas.upenn.edu (Denise Doxey) Subject: Re: AEL On the p`t To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:51:28 -0500 (EST) For information on the p't (although not specifically in the context of the Senwosret hymns), you might have a look at Gardiner's _Ancient Egyptian Onomastica_ vol. 1, pp. 100 ff, especially p. 110. There is also an article with an alternate interpretation by V. Matthews in _Discussions in Egyptology_ 34(1996), pp. 27-28. I hope this helps, Denise Doxey Denise Doxey Keeper, Egyptian Univ. of Pennsylvania Museum ============================================================================== From: "YED" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Help! Hieroglyph sof Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:17:30 +0100 Michael Dyall-Smith wrote : > Inscribe is sold by Saqqara Technologies (?) in the UK. Sorry, I don't know > their address but someone on the list surely uses it. Saqqara Technology 47 Sandfield Rd Oxford OX3 7RW ENGLAND telephone/fax : (44) (1865) 744505 emaim Compuserve : 100315,1743 I think Inscribe 1.0 is very good for PC ( its calligraphy is better than Winglyph) amicalement, Yves Dupont - Lyon Croix-Rousse - France ydupont@serveur.dtr.fr http://www.dtr.fr/homepage/ydupont/ ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:22:35 +1000 (EST) From: Geoffrey Norman Watson To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Glyph/Sesh converter anyone? Does anyone out there use the Unix "sesh" system (by Serge Rosmorduc)? (It came as part of TeX with my Linux.) Its not easy to use, but it is free (insert plug here for the Free Software Foundation, software by the people for the people). What I am really after is an awk or other editor script for converting ASCII Glyph files to SESH format. They are fairly close, and I have done a couple of small examples by hand, but it would be nice to have a converter so that where a Glyph version is available I could use it. Thanks Geoffrey Watson gwat@it.uq.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 21:39:06 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL iw/iy Graham wrote: > Concering jw/jj "come" > > These verbs are very interesting aren't they? I have usually supposed > that they must always have been the same verb, the root of which was jwj, > and that depending on some nuance which to us now seems elusive, these > three weak consonants modulated such that one or the other of them seemed > more like a vocalic diphthong. Loprieno (Ancient Egyptian) treats them as being versions of the same root: jwj - so you're in exalted company there. They seem as difficult to grasp as the multiple roots of the IE verb "be" (like "be," "am," "is," "are," "were" in English; or "sum," "est," "eram," "fui" in Latin) or the Hebrew verb "be" (perfect "hyh," continuative "yhy"). I guess that no matter how regular the verb system of a language some just plain irregular verbs creep in - usually ones in very common use. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Roxana Flammini" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL On the p`t Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:04:29 -0300 Dear Denise: Thank you for your help! Yours sincerely, Roxana ---------- > From: Denise Doxey > To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: AEL On the p`t > Date: Jueves 4 de Diciembre de 1997 12:51 > > For information on the p't (although not specifically in the context of > the Senwosret hymns), you might have a look at Gardiner's _Ancient > Egyptian Onomastica_ vol. 1, pp. 100 ff, especially p. 110. There is also > an article with an alternate interpretation by V. Matthews in > _Discussions in Egyptology_ 34(1996), pp. 27-28. > > I hope this helps, > > Denise Doxey > > Denise Doxey > Keeper, Egyptian > Univ. of Pennsylvania Museum ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 11:15:53 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Hans van Haarst Subject: AEL Westcar P9 L28 - P10 L5 Hello to all Westcarlovers, P9 L28 : kA in ra-wsr rdi=f n=sn DbA iry m-xt iw=f Then it will be Raweser who will give them the payment of it after he has returned. Here the participial construction in+noun+prospective sDm=f is used. kA is a particle 'then'. The compound preposition m-xt (after) is followed by the prospective sDm=f (emphatic branche, which I believe is called 2nd. prospective by James Hoch) P10 L1 : SAs pw ir.n tA wbA.t wn.n=s tA a.t The maidservant set off. She opened the room. P10 L2/L3 : aHa.n sDm.n=s xrw Hsi Sma xbt wAg irr.t nbt n nsw m tA at Then she heard the noise of singing, musicmaking, dancing and jubilation ((in short) all the things usually done for a king) in the room. I have some difficulty with the verbform wn.n=s in L1. According to the theory of Polotsky it has to be a circumstantial or a nominal/emphatic sDm.n=f form. The emphatic sDm.n=f is not possible here because there is no adverbial adjunct that could serve as the 'vedette'. The circumstantial sDm.n=f can not act as an initial bare verbform, it has to be preceded by an article such as iw. There remain two possibilities: 1. Consider 'wn.n=s tA at' as a circumstantial subclause which precedes the main sentence L2. 2. Consider wn.n=s as a indicative sDm.n=f. The translation of the 1. possibility : After she had opened the room she heard... The translation of the 2. possibility is given above. In line 3 the imperfective active participle irr.t is used to express an action that is usually done. P10 L4/L5 : SAs pw ir.n=s wn.in=s Hr wHm sDm.t.n=s nb.t n rdDd.t The maidservant set off and repeated to Rededjedet all she had heard. That is all for now. Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 15:39:39 +0000 From: atlixco To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Nephthys Could somebody tell me how they interpret the Egyptian Goddess Nephthys, particularly the symbols she wears on her head. She appears to be sister or wife of Set, Set appears often in the underworld texts with Apophis is this the major other character linked with Set or are there others? By the way there is a word in english derived from the greek that may relate to undoing the mystery of Nephthys (of whom I am told there is not much related openly); can you guess what it is? I would be interested in the way the symbols on Nepththys' head are employed in other usages generally. yours atlixco ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:07:26 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar p9, L28 To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar p9, L28 I don't think we have done the last line of this page. It is not an easy one. L 28: kAi in ra-wsr rdi=f n=sn DbA.w ir.y m-xt iw.t=f#000# My analysis: kAi, is the verb, "think about, plan", although Faulkner also gives a translation of kAi=f as "he will say". I will take the former meaning as there is ample use of the verb Dd for 'speak, say', in pWestcar. The verb is in the sDm.in=f narrative verb construction, so it is past tense and would translate as "Then Ra-wsr thought..." OK, here it gets tricky. The next verb, rdi, is not a prospective ("he would ...") as the prospective form of this anomalous verb is just 'di'. I'll pick the circumstantial form of the verb, and translate as: "He can make a replacement thereof for them after his return." ie. he can replace the grain removed as soon as he returns, so the gods (in disguise) won't know that they have taken some. Q: is iw.t a verbal noun "return"? Comments please!! Also, I've updated the commentary for page 9. As you know the vocab. for page 10 is complete. I have begun the vocab. for page 11 (first few lines are available). Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:56:14 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Two Games These two games can be found by pointing your web browser at: http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/games/game6.html ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:03:22 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Mark Wilson Subject: Two Games Hello, This week I prepared a game that was so difficult that I decided that it would only be fair to prepare a second one too. One is for very advanced people to attempt and the other is for people who are beginners. The difficult game is divided into three parts. Part I: difficult writings mostly of New Kingdom date, but including some older ones. Part II: Ptolemaic cryptographic writings, not the most difficult of them, but just the introductory signs. Part III: the first line of a text on a naos shrine from the XXXth dynasty. It is the introduction to the tale of Shu and Geb. For the first two parts, just attempt to give the phonetic values, and meanings of the writings if you can figure them out. For the second part, just translate the text. The simpler game is several words written almost entirely phonetically with single determinatives. You can probably transliterate them without any trouble, then look them up in your dictionaries to find their meanings. I hope you will have fun. If no one is able to get some of the difficult writings, I will give the answers by the end of the week, and maybe you will learn something from the endeavor. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 08:02:23 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9 L28 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL Westcar P9 L28 Dear Hans, I always seem to get confused when I see a kA(i) at the start of a clause. Your interpretation would flow much more reasonably from the previous line where Redjedjet asks the maidservant to go and get the grain from the room, ie. L27: "Then Rededjedet said : " Go (down) and fetch some of it, " So then line 28 would be a continuation of this dialogue, ie. " Go (down) and fetch some of it, AND Raweser will repay it [give them the payment of it] after he has returned." My only difficulty is that the form of the verb 'rdi' is not the prospective form, which is 'di'. What do you think? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:14:33 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar p9, L28 Hi, Mike, I see this line has been rather tricky. The problem is that k3j can also be a helping verb of sorts. It moves the action into the future with "then he will..." etc. > L 28: kAi in ra-wsr rdi=f n=sn DbA.w ir.y m-xt iw.t=f#000# Then it will be Rauser who shall give them the appropriate equivalent after he shall return. (Better English might just reduce this to: Then Rauser will pay them back when he returns. rdj can mean pay, and I see no reason why rdj Db3.w jr.y could not just be an idiom for "pay back" or something like that.) K3j, like `H`.n, sets the senence in reltaion to other sentences. Only, `H`.n is for "then" in the past and k3j is for "then" in the future. The rest is a participial statement: literally saying "by Rauser he gives to them..." This is so that Rauser wil be emphasized as the subject. Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:12:55 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Nephthys Hello, Atlixco, Striclty speaking much of this post is not necessary relevant to the topic of the list. However, I ask that you all indulge me briefly. It might be more appropriate, however, to discuss this question on the Osiris List. > Could somebody tell me how they interpret the Egyptian Goddess Nephthys, > particularly the symbols she wears on her head. Yes, these are hieroglyphs representing her name. There is a Hw.t sign which means "enclosure/mansion/temple" and there is a nb sign meaning "lord". Together with the single absence of the feminine .t ending they spell nb.t-Hw.t "lady of the enclosure". There is also a town in Upper Egypt which is called Hw.t though its fuller name is Hw.t-sSS.t, meaning "enclosure of the sistrum". At some period or another this city, the metropolis of the 7th Upper Egyptian nome was associated with Nephthys, since she was considered literally from her name to be the "lady of Hu". However, one might remain sceptical about this association for Nephthys is probably in origin a Heliopolitan goddess who was always in tow with Isis. The original goddess of Hu was Baet (b3.t), who is represented by a pillar topped with a bucranium, or the cow-woman face, which is the same as the face appearing on sistra and on Hathoric column capitals and mirror handles. In fact, maybe the real name of Hu was Hw.t-b3.t, "eclosure of Baet"? She, and not Hathor, is represented in the cow faces on the Narmer Palette. This goddess seems to have been very important in dynasties 0 and I, but steadily lost iportance with the rise of other more prominent goddesses like Neith and Hathor from the north. As for Isis and Nephthys, they do not come into the textual record until dynasty V when the Heliopolitan priesthood seems to have dictated the contents of the Pyramid texts. Neither Isis nor Nephthys can be said to be very old Egyptian goddesses, and the same can be said of Osiris as a god, for he merely supplants earlier deities such as Ptah, Sokar, and Khentamenthes because of the ascendency of Heliopolis. She appears to be sister > or wife of Set, Now, just talking hypothetically for a moment. Let us say that Nephthys were actually identifyable with Baet.... then we would find her as the goddess of the seventh Upper Egyptian nome. Right next door to her is the sixth, which in later times was entirely associated with Hathor at Dendara, however this was not always the situation, for in fact Ombos was the original capital of this nome, and Ombos is the very early city of Seth. The Tentyrites (people fo Dendara) are said to have been in constant feuding with the Ombites over domination of this territory, and this may be part of the picture for the reasons for the later vilification of Seth, because Tentyris ultimately won that battle and seems to have formed a new aliance with Apollinopolis Megalo (Edfu), the city of Horus the Behdite, the arch enemy of Seth the Ombite. Now, with all that scenario in the background, and knowing that an annual marriage was later performed between Hathor of Dendara and Horus of Edfu (the sixth and second nomes of Upper Egypt), what if the original alegiance had been between the sixth and seventh nomes and the ritual marriage between Seth of Ombos and Baet of Diospolis Kato (Hu)? What was the deity who supplanted Seth? ... in most cases Horus! What goddess supplanted Baet? ... almost always Hathor! At least it seems like an idea worthy of entertainment. In this way one could imagine a situation with rival nomarchs who were vying for supremacy in the Upper Egyptian Nile Valley. As we know Dynasty 0 came from Hierakonpolis (Nekhen) the major Horus city of early times, and they moved northward conquering nomes until they unified the country into an entirety... by this time their capital had passed northward to Abydos on the way to its final location in Memphis. These Horus Kings established Horus cults up and down the Nile valley as they went. Their main rivals were located in the city of Ombos, which is also known as Naqada and is right near to Dendara. That had been the largest and most important metropolis of the Predynastic Period. Therefore, more animosity and vilification had to be heaped on their most worthy opponents, and this probably is the reason that Seth was always regarded ambivalently by the Egyptian monarchy. On the one hand he had to be subsumed into the theology of kingship because this lent legitimacy and a feeling of unity to the land, but on the other hand Seth was that ancient god of those who had once been "the enemy". Anyway, back to Nephthys, if she is regarded as the wife of Seth, then maybe it is not so absurd for her to have lived in the city right next door to his city at Naqada. Moreover, the name Nephthys is not a real name, I don't think. It is actually an epithet which hides the real sacred name of the goddess, just like Khentamenthes and Wepwawet are only exoteric names for god's whose essoteric names were actually kept secret. Khentamenthes (xnt.y-jmn.t.y.w) means "chief of the westerners" and Wepwawet (wpj.w3.w.t) means "opener of ways". Wepwawet's real name was Sed, but Khentamenthes's is hard to determine... could it actualy have been "Osiris"???? One cannot know for certain... but the point is that with a name like nb.t-Hw.t "lady of the enclosure", Nephthys does not seem to be the real name of the goddess. I wonder whether it might really have been Baet. > Set appears often in the underworld texts with Apophis is this the major > other character linked with Set or are there others? The connection of Seth and Apophis is late. As early as the Old Kingdom it was Seth who was responsible for destroying Apophis from the prow of the barque of the sun god as he passed from horizon to horizon. As Seth became increasingly demonized as the murderer of Osiris, he was relegated by later Egyptians to a diabolical character and hence became a part of chaos, and was therefore more like Apophis. Seth was mostly said to be the husband of Nephthys, the son of Geb and Nut and Osiris' brother, as well as Horus' brother. He also had a special relationship to Thoth in some myths, and Thoth was at times considered to be his son through a homosexual union with Horus. In the Pyramid texts Seth and Thoth were regarded as close associates from whom the king as Osiris or as Horus needed to be protected. Seth was also sometimes regarded as the husband of a hippopotamus goddess Reret or Taweret, this might be because he was frequently taking the form of a male hippopotamus in his battles with Horus. By the way there is > a word in english derived from the greek that may relate to undoing the > mystery of Nephthys (of whom I am told there is not much related > openly); can you guess what it is? It is highly unlikely that any Greek word would have bearing on the meaning and character of Nephthys, because the Greek world and the Greek language came into contact with Egypt very late in its history. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: sthollis@baldcom.net (Susan T. Hollis) Subject: Re: AEL Nephthys Date: Sun, 7 Dec 97 17:14:51 EST5EDT The symbols on Nephthys head are nbt hwt, "mistress of the house." Although not always paired with Isis, for the most part she and Isis make a persistent pair from the time they both appear in the Pyramid Texts (about the earliest sure attestation for either of them), serving the deceased king as the djrty-birds who seek, find, nurse, bear, and otherwise tend the king. Nephthys generally appears at the head of the deceased on the bier while Isis kneels or stands at the foot (sometimes this positioning is reversed). Virtually no study of Nephthys has been done and some have suggested she is a kind of cipher. I sincerely doubt this possibility; her title is too significant, but in the publically oriented culture that Egypt was, with little obvious about the female of the house in documents (various writers in the last fifteen years have been addressing this material), nbt hwt would not be made much of. She is the sister-wife of Seth, the mother of Anubis (through a liason with Osiris, another story and a late one, since Seth is sterile). Her pairing with Isis in mortuary contexts appears right up through the Ptolemaic period for which see the Lamentations of Isis and Nephthys (Lichtehiem, Ancient Egyptian Literaure, Vol. III) and elsewhere. I have some material on her and other goddesses in the third millennium BCE in KMT, Winter of 1994-95. Susan Tower Hollis 48-A Ponderosa Drive Syracuse, NY 13215-1607 315/428-8073 sthollis@baldcom.net ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 17:02:10 -0600 To: From: Katherine Griffis Subject: RE: AEL AEgyptian Religion Cc: SDmtwi@aol.com Conrad (SDmtwi@aol.com) wrote: Hello all, I'm a new addition to this list, but I've been reading the archives for a couple of months now. Someday when I'm beyond Gardiner's lesson , I'll try my hand at some translation. For now, I'm just asking for advice. I'm trying to start a library of books about the religion of ancient Egypt. Where would be the best place to start? I'm much less interested in embalming techniques and the Hall of Two Truths than I am in everyday practice, and the sociology of the Egyptian cult. Also, I'm particularly interested in the development of the concept of the divine king over the course of time. Thank you in advance, Conrad ----- Here are several excellent books on Egyptian religion that you may find of interest -- _Ancient Egyptian Religion_, Siegfried Morenz, Cornell, Univ Press, 1973. _Religion in Ancient Egypt: Gods, Myths and Personal Practice_, Byron Schafer, Cornell Univ. Press, 1991. _Conception of God in Ancient Egypt: The One and the Many_, Erik Hornung, Cornell Univ. Press, 1982. The following are of particular interest in the study of divine kingship: _Theological Principles of Egyptian Religion_, Vincent Arieh Tobin, Peter Lang, 1989. _Kingship and the Gods: A Study of Ancient Near Eastern Religion as the Integration of Society and Nature_, Henri Frankfort, Univ od Chicago Press, 1948/1978. It is my understanding that there is a more recent book on the study of divine kingship than Frankfort's (which has been the standard for many years), but that title is not before me at the moment. Perhaps Geoff Graham or other AEL members may be able to supply you with that title. HTH.. Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg American Research Center in Egypt International Association of Egyptologists University of Alabama at Birmingham Special Studies ftp://newton.newton.cam.ac.uk/pub/ancient/egypt/email.addresses.txt ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Cc: gwat@it.uq.edu.au From: CatGuy@lamg.com Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 16:53:04 -0800 Subject: Re: AEL Glyph/Sesh converter anyone? In message ID on 12/5/97, Ancient Egyptian Language List wrote: AELL> Does anyone out there use the Unix "sesh" system (by Serge Rosmorduc)? AELL> (It came as part of TeX with my Linux.) Its not easy to use, but it is AELL> free (insert plug here for the Free Software Foundation, software by the AELL> people for the people). AELL> AELL> What I am really after is an awk or other editor script for converting AELL> ASCII Glyph files to SESH format. They are fairly close, and I AELL> have done a couple of small examples by hand, but it would be AELL> nice to have a converter so that where a Glyph version is AELL> available I could use it. Just wondering, does this run under the BSD 4.2 UNIX portion of NeXT and Rhapsody? If so, how can I get my hands on it? And while we are on the subject, Rhapsody will have UniCode (multi-language character set) as a native part of the operating system. Every time I've checked, UniCode was still holding off on including heiroglyphs. Does anyone know if they've gotten the heiroglyphs into UniCode yet? If so, where can I find the character codes (the binary codes) and copies of the official representations of the characters (bitmaps or pixelmaps)? Thanks..... Bast and Tameran witchcraft site at: or ============================================================================== From: "Leslie Bailey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Game 6 (beginners) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:45:32 -0500 1. wj3 sacred bark 2. sgnn tallow 3. mzH crocodile 4. mfk3t turquoise 5. xzbD lapis-lazuli 6. bjn (be) bad, miserable 7. hrw day, daytime 8. jHt cow 9. 3Ht field 10. nDs commoner, citizen 11. hj husband 12. j3t mound 13. zt ? 14. sr official, noble 15. pt sky 16. ptr behold, see 17. r` Ra 18. Xrd child 19. `Dd ? 20. Tzjm ? 21. s3q pull together 22. jrTt milk 23. hr(t) peace, pleasantness 24. ng3w long horned bull ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 08:21:00 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9 L28 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL Westcar P9 L28 Just following up about my query regarding the verb form of rdi/di in line 28 and the prospective form. OK, you meant the 2nd tense prospective sDm(w)=f form, which is written rdi (section 138 of Hoch). So this fits nicely. Regards, Mike D-S Melbourne ==============================================================================