From: "Marie Carter" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL DETERMINATIVES AND PHONETIC COMPLEMENTS! Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:44:39 +1000 Greetings from Down Under Two questions: (1) Why is there a need for determinatives? The only reason I can think of is to show where the word ends as there are no other clues such as a space. Although, a space would have been less work but also less aestheticly pleasing to the ancient Egyptians.OK accepted. But really, doesn't the excuse to identify the class to which the word belongs a bit thin? Wouldn't the context tell you which meaning one should give to a set of glyphs which might be the same for several meanings? Has anyone had the experience that they could read the inscription without the determinative? or the opposite - couldn't read the word without the determinative? Also I understand that a determinative could stand for the whole word, (oh joy so easy to learn) but then it is not acting as a determinative, but as a short form of the original word. I would really like to know if they have some other purpose. BTW, I have just looked at an inscription in the tomb of Khnumhotep (not the manicurist but the nome governor) at Beni Hassan. A tiny inscription of a few sentences on the wall painting of the Asiatics bringing eye paint to Khnumhotep doesn't seem to have any determinatives - that I could see. (2) Phonetic complements: e.g. a bi- or triliteral hieroglyph is written and a phonetic complement of one or two of the consonants included in that bi or tri is written again. This does confuse me as a beginner. I translate a small inscription and find I have a couple of glyphs left over. so I think I am wrong, but when I consult a reference pertaining to that particular inscription I find that my translation is correct. I would appreciate it if anyone has something else to add to my comments - even if it is just to tell me that that's the way it is. Regards Marie Carter Archaeological Diggings diggings@ozemail.com.au ============================================================================== Subject: Re: AEL DETERMINATIVES AND PHONETIC COMPLEMENTS! To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: S_Comee@jpf.go.jp Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:29:14 +0900 Concerning this question, leaving aside the "problem" of phonetic complements" for a minute, determinatives pose no problem to somewhere who is used to a language like Chinese or Japanese that uses characters. For example, take the Chinese word GAO-1 ("tall"---the number following the pronunciation indicates the tone). If you make a new character by writing "flesh" beneath it (the original word is seen as the "radical" of the new words), you make the word GAO-1 ("fat"--perhaps from the idea of "mounds of flesh"?). If you write "bamboo" above it, you get GAO-1 (pole--the kind you push a boat with); if you combine it with "tree," you get GAO-3 ("withered tree"); if you combine it with "sheaf of wheat," you get GAO-3 ("manuscript"); with both "flower" and "tree," you get GAO-3 ("straw"); and with "metal," you get GAO-3 ("suspension bridge"). So you can see that the basic word, GAO, remains unchanged (even the pronunciation stays the same), yet the word has different meanings. Thus, the ADDED portions are used to indicate what type of thing is being referred to. To me, this is VERY similar to the way the AE determinatives are used: by following a word with the glyph for "person" (A1) or for "person doing something pertaining with his mouth" (A2) or "woman" (B1) or "deity" (many choices here) or "abstract thought" (Y1/Y2), so added meaning can be communicated, telling the reader what word is being used. (Note that in the Chinese example above, if one just said the word, it would be impossible to ascertain out of context which of the 3 first-tone words was meant. In context, it is easier---but even then may need to be clarified; whereas in writing, all ambuguity falls away. It may not be so apparent for someone who never had to struggle with characters and the many sections added to the radical. I think that this is why determinatives were used---to eliminate as much ambiguity as possible. As to the phonetc complements, perhaps the ancients used them as pronunciation guides, or even for purely aesthetic reasons. Certainly, "ankh" could easily be written with only the glyph S34, as it often is given in the injunction "anx-wDA-snb," which is written with but three simple glyphs. But to follow it with the alphabetic "n" and then "kh" certainly clarifies the pronunciation, and, in some cases, may even look more pleasing. Also, I might suggest that I think many of us tend to forget that the letters we transliterate as "a" "i" "y" etc. were NOT vowels but consonants. Thus, it seems clear than the reason so many phonetic complements were used might have been to either indicate the vowels or tell how many syllabes the word had. Look at this example: "nTr" or "god" can be written as R8 alone, or R8 + t/T + r, as R8 + A40 (etc.), or even R8 + t/T + r + A40, and if the god were Thoth, the final glyph could be C3 instead of A40. In this case, the glyph is R8, the t/T and r are phonetic complements, and the A40 and C3 are determinatives, with the C3 determinative even giving us the identity of the god. So although it very complicated, if you think of it as a great challenge or game, it becomes a lot of fun. I hope that helps a little (and did not confuse you too much...) m Htp, Stephen *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Stephen Comee Special Consultant, The Japan Foundation "No craftsman is fully master of his craft." --Ptahhotep *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ============================================================================== From: "Olivier Bouffard" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Question about glyph-processors Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:06:29 +0200 Hi list the price of Glyphotext is 100 ? after the trial period of 30 days... this will give you access to the up-to-dates and to the texts database which is very big... the new glyphs list is over 3000 !!! If someone needs inquiries about the using (which is very simple anyway), I can help him with pleasure ! best regards olivier ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:08:57 +0200 From: Docent To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL DETERMINATIVES AND PHONETIC COMPLEMENTS! > Greetings from Down Under Hi! > (1) Why is there a need for determinatives? The only reason I can think of is to show where the word ends Not so. Determinatives help distinguish the words which have the same writing form, (they may have had different pronunciation as well, which we're not able to tell nowadays), e.g. wn-n-D3 - became bald wn-n-D54 - hurry wn-n-G43 - mistake However, sometimes more popular words were used without det's, and at times, as an abbrevation det's had a vertical stroke to mark them as a fully functioning word. > Wouldn't the context tell you which meaning one should > give to a set of glyphs which might be the same for several meanings? Sure, the context helps, but don't det's help even more :-) Imagine there were no vowels written in latin alphabet. How would you know which words I meant if I wrote "wh-t - n-c- c-t"? > (2) Phonetic complements: Same as above. V29 is either "sk" or "wAh". To make it easy to determine which meaning it is, a scribe would add a single consonant sign or two at the end: "sk[k]", "wAh[A][h]". Thanks to this "rebus method" it is clear what the scribe meant. And again, there were no strict rules, so depending on the context OR the space where a text was to be inscribed, the triliteral could be "wAh[A][h]", "wAh[h]", or even "wAh" (quite rarely I guess). That's the beauty of the script: the text could be either shortened or lengthened, depending on the needs. Cheers, -- Zbigniew Szczudlik -- doc73 (at) poczta.fm esp207 (at) gmail.com -- ============================================================================== From: "Alan Woodcock" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL DETERMINATIVES AND PHONETIC COMPLEMENTS! Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 23:17:02 +0200 Hi Marie I think the other replies have ably answered your principal questions. You also write: "BTW, I have just looked at an inscription in the tomb of Khnumhotep (not the manicurist but the nome governor) at Beni Hassan. A tiny inscription of a few sentences on the wall painting of the Asiatics bringing eye paint to Khnumhotep doesn't seem to have any determinatives - that I could see. " This can happen when a text describes a picture. The elements of the picture are themselves regarded as determinants for the corresponding words! (Or you could say, the picture supplies the context which makes the readings unambiguous). This is touched on in Collier & Manley, p. 13, "Note the interaction of art and text... the foreleg is ... part of the scene but also serves as the determinative of the word HpS..." To the Egyptian, a hieroglyph was a picture and a picture was a hieroglyph. It's magic! Best regards Alan Woodcock ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:06:18 +0200 From: omezzab@tin.it Subject: AEL helping tool for sorting messages To: "Lista_Egypt" Hi all! I am a new subscriber. I am italian, actor by profession, particularly interested in ancient prosody. At present I am working on the Shipwrecked Sailor, and I'm trying to realize on my own an audio recording, just for fun. Prohibitive task! But since I am not an egyptologist I have no reputation to loose, so I feel free to plunge myself into any kind of vocal and perhaps ridicolous experiment. But I'll talk about this in some future message. As for now I just wanted to inform you that I wrote a small java program ( I am fond of any kind of language, be it natural or artificial) which helps finding out particular subjects amongst the more than 8300 messages of this great mailing list. In fact, as soon as I subscribed, I downloaded all the archives, but I found almost impossible to go thru the messages and find the ones I was particularly interested in . This program, which I named JAELReader (J is for Java) did help me a lot. I sorted and grouped all the phonology and Sailor messages. And many other topics, as well. A real treasure! If you are interested you may download the reader at my site: http://xoomer.virgilio.it/omezzabo/ It will take a few seconds, since it's an 11Kb application. Unfortunately, it may not run on all computers. It won't run on Macs, but it may not run on some PC's as well. I informed in advance the list-owner, Mark Wilson, but he told me that on his machine it doesn't work. I tested it on my PC with XP Pro and WindowsME and it works all right. Anyway, even if it doesn't work, it should produce no harm. Read the Guide to see how it works and what resources you need. One thing only: as soon as you double-click the JAEL icon to launch the program you have to wait 10-15 seconds to have it loaded into the Java Virtual Machine. I wrote a C++ version too (WAELReader I called it : W for Windows). But that is really tricky. It works with XP Pro, but it crashes badly with WindowsME. So, if there's anyone crazy enough to risk an experiment= , just send me a mail and I'll ship it privately. It's completely free, of course! This would like be a small present to the list members. If it turns out unuseful or malfunctioning, blame me, curse me, but please, don't throw me out of the list ;-)) Ciao Orlando Mezzabotta ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 23:37:56 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Michael Everson Subject: Re: AEL DETERMINATIVES AND PHONETIC COMPLEMENTS! At 12:44 +1000 2005-04-25, Marie Carter wrote: >(1) Why is there a need for determinatives? There isn't. When hieroglyphs were given up in favour of Coptic script, things were just fine. Dryly, -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com ============================================================================== From: "amr gaber" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL seeking advice Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:55:08 +0200 Dear list members While reading R.David's book "Religious Ritual at Abydos",p.230. There is an inscription on the south section of the east wall in the shrine of Sethos I and she has translated it as:"Pure is king Men-Maet-Re given life, he has censed him with his bodily eye and his flesh is pure and his image is divine". On the other hand, L.Bell in his article:"Luxor Temple and the Cult of the Royal Ka ", JNES 44 no.4 (1985), p.284. he translated the text as " He (Horus) has deified him (Seti I) with his own eye, pure is his body and divine is his image". He added that it is part of the rituals of the deification of Amenophis I . Could you please give me your opinion? Thank you so much in advance. yours. Amr Gaber. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:20:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sole =)" Subject: AEL About the name Tjaroy To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Hi, I'm new in this list and I must admit that my knowledge on the egyptian language is very poor (but I'm trying to learn ^^). Currently I'm writing a book, and one of the characters is an ancient egyptian. The problem I have is that I chose his name from a long list of names in internet and now I'd like to know what it means. The name's Tjaroy. I've seen other names starting with Tja and others ending in Roy, so I assume it must have a meaning right? I've searched all around internet and all I could find about it is that there was a scribe named Tjaroy. anyone know? help =) Soledad Blanco aurethil@yahoo.com ============================================================================== From: "Katherine Griffis" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL About the name Tjaroy Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:18:41 +0100 Soledad Blanco wrote: Hi, I'm new in this list and I must admit that my knowledge on the egyptian language is very poor (but I'm trying to learn ^^). Currently I'm writing a book, and one of the characters is an ancient egyptian. The problem I have is that I chose his name from a long list of names in internet and now I'd like to know what it means. The name's Tjaroy. I've seen other names starting with Tja and others ending in Roy, so I assume it must have a meaning right? I've searched all around internet and all I could find about it is that there was a scribe named Tjaroy. anyone know? help =) Not exactly "a" scribe. There are several persons, many of them scribes, with the same name. It appears "Tjaroy" or Tjari (Egyptian /TAry/) was a popular name during the Ramesside period. It's difficult to say with certainty without seeing the glyphs, but the name possibly means "he who binds/secures" (?). One of the later known attestations of the name comes from Dhutmose-Tjaroy and his son Butehamun from the late Ramesside New Kingdom period, the biography of whom is recounted in Kikuchi, T. 1997. Das Graffito Nr. 3981a und eine aus den Late Ramesside Letters bekannte Familie der Nekropolenschreiber. GM 160: 51-58. Who recounted the name belonged to the transition period from the XXth to the XXIst Dynasty. I believe more information on this family can be found in Edwards, I. E. S. 1982. The Bankes Papyri I and II. JEA 68: 126-133. The same name can be found of a royal scribe, surnamed Ramses-nakht, at Saqqara, also of the Ramesside period, in the article Gohary, S. 1991. A Monument of the Royal Scribe Tjuroy. BIFAO 91: 191-194. According to Geoffrey Martin, there was also a royal scribe called Tjuneroy, from the 19th Dynasty, during the reign of Ramses II. His titles included Overseer of all the Works of the Kings, Chief Controller of all the Monuments of the King, Chief Lector Priest, Sem-Priest of the King, Festival Leader of all the Gods, Royal Scribe, Chief Scribe, Overseer of the Granary, Headman, and Master of Largess. He was brother to Paser, an Overseer of Builders of the King and Royal Scribe as well. Martin lays out the biography and genealogy of these two men on pp. 120-124 of Martin, G. T. 1991. _The Hidden Tombs of Memphis: New Discoveries from the Times of Tutankhamun and Ramesses the Great_. New Aspects of Antiquity. C. Renfrew. New York: Thames and Hudson. HTH. Regards - Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon) Oriental Institute Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology] Oxford University Oxford, United Kingdom http://www.griffis-consulting.com ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:42:58 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL About the name Tjaroy Sole =) a écrit : > Hi, I'm new in this list and I must admit that my knowledge on the egyptian language > is very poor (but I'm trying to learn ^^). > Currently I'm writing a book, and one of the characters is an ancient egyptian. The > problem I have is that I chose his name from a long list of names in internet and now > I'd like to know what it means. > The name's Tjaroy. I've seen other names starting with Tja and others ending in Roy, > so I assume it must have a meaning right? I've searched all around internet and all > I could find about it is that there was a scribe named Tjaroy. > anyone know? help =) "Tjaroy" (TA-Z1-r-i-i) was the nickname of Thutmose, scribe of the royal Tomb during the late XXth dynasty, who figures prominently in the Late Ramesside Letters. (in fact, this nickname only appears in the LRL : Cerny, a community of workmen, p. 364). About the name, Cerny says (o.c., p.365) " The reason, however, why the surname Tjaroy was given to Dhutmose escapes us completely. Spiegelberg's suggestion that it was derived from the name of the Delta fortress TArw (Sile) can no longer be considered plausible , since Dhutmose has turned out to be of purely Theban descent." So, basically, we don't know :-) Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Graeme Ceccuti" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL DETERMINATIVES AND PHONETIC COMPLEMENTS! Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:12:36 +0100 But if you look at the hieroglyph sometimes the same spelling can spell two different things so they are required (anokhi and nekh are spelt the same). And in Coptic vowels are written in so only words that sound the same are written the same Graeme Chetcuti ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:54:06 -0500 Em htp All, Based on the response to my question about who is starting or has recently begun working with JamesAllen's book, I think we have enough interested people to form a small study group on this list. Since I haver received our moderator's blessing to inaugerate such a group, I propose that we meet here on this list and label our posts like this: ME Allen:1.35 which would stand for Middle Egyptian, James Allen's book, Lesson 1. problem 35 or for more general posts Just ME Allen: and then your subject This should be sufficient to help those of us in the study group identify each other's posts. And while I think a general group to encourage new language students to post to each other and to identify us to more advanced listmembers is a good idea, I have had mixed success with other language lists where people simply share a book, but don't actually work on the lessons at the same time--so I also recommend we have 2 study options so everyone can find a good fit in the study group. Everyone who is interested in being involved in the ME Allen study group can send a post introducing yourself, stating where you are in your studies, particularly in Allen's book, and then which option you would like to join under. (simply cut and paste one of these underlined options into your email) 1. I want to be in the General ME Allen study group, but don't plan to work with the group at any set pace, but I will post my questions and input as I go and follow the list traffic. 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. If there are enough takers for option two--then there will be an actual working study section with a schedule and those who choose this option can work out the details when the group is ready to start. If not then we will just have a general list. I have studied Middle Egyptian online now for a while and I can recomend a few things, but I don't to get too far ahead of myself here or step on the toes of those who are just begining and might like to do something else as a group. I just wanted to get something started for those of us still in the early stages of the language. I am currently also studying with two friends and we are in Lesson 14. We have occasionally become stumped and wished for a teacher with whom we might consult, so I know this must be a common issue for those studying on their own--maybe we can help each other. .And, of course, we are counting on the participation of the list as a whole, as those of you who have been studying longer can give us your feedback and help us when we can't help ourselves ( : best all Karen ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL About the name Tjaroy Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:08:32 -0700 >From: "Katherine Griffis" >Reply-To: Ancient Egyptian Language List >To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" >Subject: RE: AEL About the name Tjaroy >Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:18:41 +0100 > >Soledad Blanco wrote: > > >Hi, I'm new in this list and I must admit that my knowledge on the egyptian >language is very poor (but I'm trying to learn ^^). >Currently I'm writing a book, and one of the characters is an ancient >egyptian. The problem I have is that I chose his name from a long list of >names in internet and now I'd like to know what it means. >The name's Tjaroy. I've seen other names starting with Tja and others >ending >in Roy, so I assume it must have a meaning right? I've searched all around >internet and all I could find about it is that there was a scribe named >Tjaroy. >anyone know? help =) > >Not exactly "a" scribe. There are several persons, many of them scribes, >with the same name. > > It appears "Tjaroy" or Tjari (Egyptian /TAry/) was a popular name during >the Ramesside period. It's difficult to say with certainty without seeing >the glyphs, but the name possibly means "he who binds/secures" (?). One of >the later known attestations of the name comes from Dhutmose-Tjaroy and his >son Butehamun from the late Ramesside New Kingdom period, the biography of >whom is recounted in Sorry, but this name, probably also written "Twnroy", mean nothing in Egyptian and are probably variants of a foreign name in orthography [see Hoch's "Semitic Words In Egyptian Texts, middle of page 432], the writings of /r/ and /nr/ likely representing Semitic "l". Ever since the 12th Dynasty, we see people having both Egyptian and foreign names [Brooklyn Papyrus] and it is highly likely people of foreign extraction were among the workers and officials at Deir el Medina, as well. The /T/ is probably a writing of Semitic samekh, both graphemes being of uncertain pronunciation. >Kikuchi, T. 1997. Das Graffito Nr. 3981a und eine aus den Late Ramesside >Letters bekannte Familie der Nekropolenschreiber. >m#p=GM> GM 160: 51-58. > >Who recounted the name belonged to the transition period from the XXth to >the XXIst Dynasty. I believe more information on this family can be found >in > >Edwards, I. E. S. 1982. The Bankes Papyri I and II. >m#p=JEA> JEA 68: 126-133. > >The same name can be found of a royal scribe, surnamed Ramses-nakht, at >Saqqara, also of the Ramesside period, in the article > >Gohary, S. 1991. A Monument of the Royal Scribe Tjuroy. >m#p=BIFAO> BIFAO 91: 191-194. > >According to Geoffrey Martin, there was also a royal scribe called >Tjuneroy, >from the 19th Dynasty, during the reign of Ramses II. His titles included >Overseer of all the Works of the Kings, Chief Controller of all the >Monuments of the King, Chief Lector Priest, Sem-Priest of the King, >Festival >Leader of all the Gods, Royal Scribe, Chief Scribe, Overseer of the >Granary, >Headman, and Master of Largess. He was brother to Paser, an Overseer of >Builders of the King and Royal Scribe as well. > >Martin lays out the biography and genealogy of these two men on pp. 120-124 >of > >Martin, G. T. 1991. _The Hidden Tombs of Memphis: New Discoveries from the >Times of Tutankhamun and Ramesses the Great_. New Aspects of Antiquity. C. >Renfrew. New York: Thames and Hudson. ============================================================================== From: ANuttyQuilter@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:47:54 EDT Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk;, kmotc@swbell.net I would like to apply to be a member of the group. My name is Tania Godwin-Evans and Im currently working on my long essay for my Diploma in Egyptology. Its great that you have started this as often studying on your own there is no place to turn when you either run out of steam or get stumped. I would like to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One ( as I cannot start until June can I still participate?) and work my way through the book as a group. I have already done glyphs as part of my certificate (working through manley and collier) but have lost my eye. Many thanks for starting this most excellent group Tania Godwin-Evans ============================================================================== From: "Hyaduck, John" To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Cc: "Hyaduck, John" Subject: AEL 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also wa nt to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:47:44 -0400 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. My name is John Michael Hyaduck. I live north of Detroit, Michigan and have studied Latin, Greek, and Hebrew using similar study groups and am pursuing Arabic for family reasons. I have been a professional software developer for several decades but my avocation is the study of comparative linguistics, phonology and ancient history. I am also homeschooling my son who is more than passionate about egyptology. Our trips to Chicago, and even the little museum in Ann Arbor have been highlights of his year. He probably knows more digraph glyphs than myself. I have all the books (I think) but would like some structure and a schedule. I will be doing Allen with some Loprieno on the side. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:49:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Mezumiiru Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book To: Ancient Egyptian Language List --- kmotc wrote: > Everyone who is interested in being involved in the > ME Allen study group can send a post introducing > yourself, stating where you are in your studies, > particularly in Allen's book, and then which option > you would like to join under. > 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, > and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my > way through the book as a group. I am Chris located in PA. I read history extensively and have only started in Allen's book and am not to Chapter 7. I look forward to discussing alternatives with a group. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:29:00 +0200 From: Ramses van Pinxteren To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Em htp Great initiative Karen! I started a while ago with just reading through the book. Doing that without the excersises was already at times mindboggeling. Doing the first couple of chapters I quickly found out that learning a language is something completely different than my normal studying of software installation instructions etc. My introduction was given about 1 week ago, so I am not going to do that again. Count me in for option 2: 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Thanks! ramses ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:06:41 +0100 (BST) From: l webster Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Karen I would be very interested in joining the study group. I did go as far as lesson 12 two years ago but now need to start again and hopefully get to the end this time. A study group would help a lot. My option is: 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Thanks for organising this Roy ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:16:24 -0400 From: msesheta To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. msesheta ============================================================================== From: "Greg Zuck" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:47:10 -0500 Please also include me in the ME Allen Study Group for Beginners. As mentioned, I worked with the James E. Hoch Middle Egyptian Grammar and the Sign List. Only found out about the Allen book afterwards. I just received the most recent Oriental Institute bulletin of Univ. of Chicago which states that the university does use Blackboard Course Management software. Why didn't they make their correspondence course more user friendly and interactive? Will this discussion group also include a web site with resources/files for reference? Also, I understand that the Allen book has some mistakes/typos/clarifications and that the corrections are available at some site. Is that true? Does everyone also purchase Faulkner's Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian (Oxford, 1988)? What supplements are recommended? Best Regards, Greg Zuck ============================================================================== From: "Thomas Sima" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:23:38 -0400 I think that even people who have read through the entire Allen book would benefit from a re-read. I have gone through the book a few times and use it as a reference grammar when translating. However, I find that, from time to time, I have questions regarding finer points of grammar and Allen does not always address them. However, this would require either Allen himself or an Egyptologist of his calibre to agree to read all the questions that arise. To my knowledge, no one has volunteered to lead the group you propose starting up. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:01:29 -0700 From: "Atlantis Networks Ltd." Subject: RE: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' My Name is Sandro Banducci, I reside in Vancouver. B.C. and am currently on Chapter 6 of Allen. Regards, 1. I want to be in the General ME Allen study group, but don't plan to work with the group at any set pace, but I will post my questions and input as I go and follow the list traffic. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:09:42 -0400 From: Polaris To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book I am similarly interested, but can't join in till June as well. If this branches a sublist or another mailing list - please keep me subscribed. Cheers,Dave Valentine dval@mts.net / polaris@northerndragons.ca ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:38:04 -0400 From: Shane Alan Lieffers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Hi Karen et al. Excellent initiative! I very much hope this turns out to be a success. I would love to put myself down for option 2, but I will be doing a significant amount of travelling in upcoming months, so alas, I must go with option 1. I am currently on chapter 11, but have been away from it for several weeks and feel the need to go back and do some intensive review. I will certainly be chiming in with questions when I have them. Cheers, Shane Lieffers ============================================================================== From: EmbrdrKBH@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:23:12 EDT Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk In a message dated 4/29/2005 4:00:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kmotc@swbell.net writes: 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Great Idea!!! Karen Hauck ============================================================================== From: "Helen Turnbull" To: Subject: AEL New Study Group for Beginners using James P. Allens Book Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:16:33 +0100 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, > and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my > way through the book as a group. I am Helen and am studying for my Certificate in Egyptology (due to complete in June). I have tried starting Allen's book on my own but have onlt got as far as Chapter 3 in the past and would really love to join a study group starting at Chapter 1. ============================================================================== From: "Chris Bloom" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:21:37 -0700 I too want to join at the Lesson one and join you. ============================================================================== From: Scalpill2@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:36:24 EDT Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Great idea. 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Sam Lan ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:50:36 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: "Oscar H. Blayton, Atty. At Law, Inc." To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Oscar H. Blayton Attorney At Law, Inc. P.O. Box 1165 150 Ron Springs Drive Williamsburg, VA 23187 Phone: (757) 229-1242 FAX: Prior Notice Requested Email: Blayton_Law@sprynet.com ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book From: "Kyle Barger" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" > 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to > start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. I'll go for this. I've started my way through Allen twice and made it up to the second and fourth chapters resepctively--but it was so long ago that I'm sure the review of working through the early lessons will be good for me. ============================================================================== From: Michael G.Smith Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:05:51 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Greetings! I am very interested in joining this study group, and would like 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. I live in Southern Delaware, USA, and have studied Egyptian history and mythology for some years. I worked through part of Manley and Collier some years ago, but have forgotten much of what I knew. It would be great to have others with whom to study. Em htp Michael ============================================================================== From: Egipto_em_Portugu=EAs To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:19:43 +0100 Hi! My name is Mario and I live in Portugal, I'm an IT professional so just a complete starter/amateur in Egyptology. Last January I started to study middle Egyptian, an my first step was a small (30 hours) introduction course presented by a known Portuguese Egyptologist named Luis Manuel Ara=FAjo. This was an excellent start, but I feel that I = need more. I have Faulkner's "A Concise Dictionary Of Middle Egyptian" and Collier/Manley's "How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphs". I'm going to buy Allen's book in order to follow the posts and be studying with the group. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Cheers, Mario http://www.mariomarcia.com/Egipto.htm ============================================================================== From: "Javier Marcelo" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:09:35 +0200 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way trough the book as a group. I've had the book for a couple of weeks and have read a couple of chapters only. Javier Marcelo Mora Civil Engineer Universidad Politécnica de Madrid ============================================================================== From: "Katherine Griffis" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL About the name Tjaroy Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:36:10 +0100 -----Original Message----- From: Marianne Luban : I wrote: > It appears "Tjaroy" or Tjari (Egyptian /TAry/) was a popular name during >the Ramesside period. It's difficult to say with certainty without seeing >the glyphs, but the name possibly means "he who binds/secures" (?). One of >the later known attestations of the name comes from Dhutmose-Tjaroy and his >son Butehamun from the late Ramesside New Kingdom period, the biography of >whom is recounted in Luban: Sorry, but this name, probably also written "Twnroy", mean nothing in Egyptian and are probably variants of a foreign name in orthography [see Hoch's "Semitic Words In Egyptian Texts, middle of page 432], the writings of /r/ and /nr/ likely representing Semitic "l". Ever since the 12th Dynasty, we see people having both Egyptian and foreign names [Brooklyn Papyrus] and it is highly likely people of foreign extraction were among the workers and officials at Deir el Medina, as well. The /T/ is probably a writing of Semitic samekh, both graphemes being of uncertain pronunciation. ========================= =========== Please note Serge Rosmorduc=E2=80=99s earlier comment that the assumption the Djehutimose Tjaroy name was of foreign extraction has been discounted and that Djehutimose Tjaroy was =E2=80=9Cof purely Theban descent=E2=80=9D (Cern=C3=BD 2001 (1973): 365). This seems quite certain from Cern=C3=BD s detailed description of Djehutimose Tjaroy=E2=80=99s genealogy as written in a variety of texts and his tomb (Cern=C3=BD 2001 (1973): 357-383). As Serge also pointed out, the transliteration of =E2=80=9CTjaroy=E2=80=9D in this case is / TA-Z1-r-[Z1]-i-i/, with Cern=C3=BD suggesting the name was likely pronounced =E2=80=9CT=C4=93re,=E2=80=9D and was a =E2=80=98pet name=E2=80=99 (possibly a diminutive?) based on a similar construction of name of /Tri/ formed from the longer name of /nb-nTrw/, i.e., =E2=80=99neb-ent=C4=93r=E2=80=99 (Ranke 1973 (1952): 392, No. 17; Cern=C3=BD 2001 (1973): 365, n. 5). Even in all variations of spellings of the Djehutimose Tjaroy name [/T-Z1-r-Z1-i-A-ii/, /T-Z1-rw-Z1-ii/, /T-Z1-r-Z1-rw-Z1-ii/, /T-Z1-r-Z1-r-Z1-ii/,/Twr-Z1-ii/, /Twr-Z1-Ti/ and /T-Z5-r-Z1-T-Z1-iA/] which Cern=C3=BD notes in some detail, there is no variant which corresponds to /Twnroy/ (Cern=C3=BD 2001 (1973): 366). The only name close to the /Twnroy/ you mention was the royal scribe called Tjuneroy, from the 19th Dynasty, during the reign of Ramses II, as detailed by Geoffrey Martin (1991). However, from the genealogy Martin was able to reconstruct of Tjuneroy and his family, from his brother Paser's tomb and a few selected artefacts from the now-lost tomb of Tjuneroy, they too were likely Egyptian nobles, who appeared to be firmly established as an important noble family in Memphis. The tomb of Tjuneroy, for example, contained slabs [now in the Cairo Museum] which were inscribed with a kinglist in its tomb chapel, listing kings from the First Dynasty to the Ramesside period, which formed part of Tjuneroy's very select duties as sem- and lector-priest for the deceased kings' cult (Martin 1991: 123). Tjuneroy's name is rendered as /Tw-n-Z2-r-Z1-ii/, according to the rendering of a prayer stela of Paser, as shown in Martin 1991: 116, No. 77. The name of another Ramesside era scribe called Tjaroy, surnamed Ramses-Nakht, is, however, transliterated as /TAry/, as noted in the Gohary article cited earlier. References: Cern=C3=BD, J. 2001 (1973). _A Community of Workmen at Thebes in the Rammeside Period_. Second Ed. Biblioth=C3=A8que d'=C3=A9tude 50. Cairo: IFAO. Martin, G. T. 1991. _The Hidden Tombs of Memphis: New Discoveries from the Times of Tutankhamun and Ramesses the Great_. New Aspects of Antiquity. C. Renfrew. New York: Thames and Hudson. Ranke. H. 1973. _ Die =C3=A4gyptischen Personennamen_. (3 Vols.) Gl=C3=BCckstadt: Verlag J. J. Augustin. Gohary, S. 1991. A Monument of the Royal Scribe Tjuroy. BIFAO 91: 191-194. Regards =E2=80=93 Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon) Oriental Institute Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology] Oxford University Oxford, United Kingdom http://www.griffis-consulting.com ============================================================================== From: "Coenraad van Schoor" Cc: Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 00:54:06 -0700 To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Hey all! I'm opting 4 d 2nd option: general study grp starting at lesson 1. I'm Coenraad van Schoor,a 4th year medical and surgery student in Johannesburg,South Africa. Unlike most of u guys i dont hav any formal training in linguistics,or history or egyptology...tho i'v bn teaching myself all these things at home in private. I'm currently at lesson 7 in Allen's, bt i'll start at lesson 1 again 4 revision's sake. Cool,hope we start this study grp thing soon!=0A= CHEERS ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:19:42 -0400 From: David Muller To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Hi, My name is Dave. I'm interested in participating in the study group: I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. ============================================================================== From: "Angela Carter" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:30:44 -0400 Hello, 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. My name is Christopher Thomas, I live in a small but wonderful town in Kentucky. I have always been somewhat of an aegyptophile(I had the uniliteral hieroglyphs memorized by age 8), but have only recently begun to study the language in earnest. I bought Mr. Allen's book some time ago, but only read through the first couple of chapters. I would really enjoy studying it from the beginning with a group. Thanks, Christopher Thomas khepera@surfbest.net ============================================================================== From: "Karen Croft" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 09:39:38 -0400 Hi: Thank you for your interest, I have started James Allen's book three times and never got past chapter seven. I have a limited knowledge of grammer so it is twice as difficult. I would appreciate a group effort to provide motivation and help. I have no formal training, just always wanted to learn. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Thanks Karen Croft ============================================================================== From: Jsnppr@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:14:36 EDT Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book To: blayton_law@sprynet.com, AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk I too would like to join the group. I started Allen and Collier & Manley at the same time a couple of summers ago, but I've forgotten a lot since. I got about a quarter of the way through M&C and I think Chapter 5 of Allen, but I'd love to start again from the beginning with chapter 1. My name is Jason and I live in New York city. Thanks for organizing this Karen. << 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. >> ============================================================================== From: sashaverma@optusnet.com.au To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:37:49 +1000 Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book My name is Sasha Verma, am studying Egyptology at Macquarie University,Sydney ,Australia.Would like to join Group 2. Regards sasha ============================================================================== From: "Richard" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 06:18:42 -0500 I also want to join - great idea. Richard ============================================================================== From: "Herbert J. Burgauer" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:23:28 -0400 From Herbert J. Burgauer, retired, living in Ontario, Ohio. I would also like to participate in the study for beginners. But I will be on vacation till May 20th. I have been to Egypt, a tour from Aswan to Cairo on the Nile in 1976. Also I have been reading about Ancient Egypt for a long time. I tried the Allen book on my own and got stuck. HJB ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:29:04 -0400 From: Dean Martin To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Hi I want to join the Allen study group. This would be great. My name is Dean and I live in West Virginia about 30 miles west of Pittsburgh. I have a background in Classical Languages and I am currently in two study groups for Classical Greek. One is using "First Greek Book" and the other is translating the first book of the Illiad by Homer using Pharr as a text. Also have a good background in history, geography, science, and literature. By the way need time to get the textbook! I would go for option 2: 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Best Regards to All, Dean ============================================================================== From: George McDowell Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:23:10 +0200 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Karen, Your idea appeals 2 a large no. of AEL subscribers myself included, however, I donot own a copy of Allen's book (have 1 on order) but would still like to b included. I live in Vienna Austria have no previous knowledge of hieroglyphs although have read a number of books about middle egypt. Rgds George ============================================================================== From: "Ole Crohn" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: SV: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 18:45:29 +0100 From Ole Crohn retired Chemist living in Denmark. I would also like to join Group 2. in the study for beginners. I have been reading about the history and language of ancient Egypt for some time. best all Ole Crohn ============================================================================== From: "David Kenaz" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:22:20 +0300 I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. David Kenaz ============================================================================== From: Bavno@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 00:06:30 EDT Subject: AEL Hello To: aegyptian-l@rostau.org.uk My name is Jack Glasner, I am a student 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Thank you >> ============================================================================== From: Xupswoman@cs.com Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:59:41 EDT Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk I would love to participate in the study group also, starting with chapter one. I am Barb Krause and live outside of Seattle, Washington. I tried the University of Chicago course by mail last fall, but didn't have much success. I started late as I didn't expect it to take a month to get the book and then I stopped early because of a trip to Egypt in January. I didn't find the book to be very helpful, as some have mentioned. The only languages I know are English and some Spanish from high school but have always been interested in linguistics. I have no formal training of any kind in Egyptology, but just find it to be a fascinating subject. Karen, thank you so much for setting this up! Barb ============================================================================== From: "kmotc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Thomas's comments about a "leader" for the study group ( : Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 04:17:53 -0500 Em Htp Thomas, You are correct, we have no professional Egyptologist to lead our study group. That would presumably be a class, and what I am proposing is only a study group for interested beginners. I think most people who responded to my query about the study group want to go through the lessons as a group and that will make it easier for us all to ask and answer each others questions. If all the Allen beginners study together and help one another hash through the Lessons that will be worthwhile in itself. We are not going to be asking "finer points of grammar just yet." And if we do, we will just try to come to a consensus. I do appreciate your perspective though, --an instructor would be ideal. Just for argument's sake I will put it to the list: If anybody out there who has a teaching level grasp of ME wants to lead us--please chime in But since this is a discussion list, I don't really expect that anyone will volunteer for the job ( : We don't need a teacher or even a leader per se, just a coordinator to get us started, and since I have set up one study group, I don't mind helping start this one. I have managed to get to Lesson 14 with my other smaller group, though we have stopped a few times to review concepts again, so it's feasible to study with Allen's book without an instructor. I don't imagine any of us will be reading fluently even when we finish the grammar, but we have to start somewhere. My 3 member study group has managed fairly well, we do have an outstanding list of questions that we have left pending, and which I need to cull from our chat logs, but these questions have not prevented us from going through the material with a decent understanding. They are mostly minor points that we would like clarified and perhaps a fresh perspective from the new group will be all it takes. Even having just two other people has meant more insight for me than I would have had on my own. So if we get 25-30 people or more here committed to working on the lessons--we should do very well. My hope is that when we do have questions we cannot muddle through with the key and our collective efforts, that some of the professional Egyptologists following the list, or more advanced Middle Egyptian students like yourself will offer their input. best, Karen. I have gone through the book a few times and use it > as a reference grammar when translating. However, I find that, from time to > time, I have questions regarding finer points of grammar and Allen does not > always address them. However, this would require either Allen himself or an > Egyptologist of his calibre to agree to read all the questions that arise. > To my knowledge, no one has volunteered to lead the group you propose > starting up. > ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL About the name Tjaroy Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 08:20:49 -0700 >From: "Katherine Griffis" >Reply-To: Ancient Egyptian Language List >To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" >Subject: RE: AEL About the name Tjaroy >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:36:10 +0100 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Marianne Luban : > >I wrote: > > It appears "Tjaroy" or Tjari (Egyptian /TAry/) was a popular name >during > >the Ramesside period. It's difficult to say with certainty without seeing > >the glyphs, but the name possibly means "he who binds/secures" (?). One >of > >the later known attestations of the name comes from Dhutmose-Tjaroy and >his > >son Butehamun from the late Ramesside New Kingdom period, the biography >of > >whom is recounted in > >Luban: >Sorry, but this name, probably also written "Twnroy", mean nothing in >Egyptian and are probably variants of a foreign name in orthography [see >Hoch's "Semitic >Words In Egyptian Texts, middle of page 432], the writings of /r/ and /nr/ >likely >representing Semitic "l". > >Ever since the 12th Dynasty, we see people having both Egyptian and foreign >names [Brooklyn Papyrus] and it is highly likely people of foreign >extraction were >among the workers and officials at Deir el Medina, as well. The /T/ is >probably a >writing of Semitic samekh, both graphemes being of uncertain pronunciation. >==================================== >Please note Serge Rosmorduc’s earlier comment that the assumption the >Djehutimose Tjaroy name was of foreign extraction has been discounted and >that Djehutimose Tjaroy was “of purely Theban descent†(Cerný 2001 >(1973): 365). This seems quite certain from Cerný s detailed description >of Djehutimose Tjaroy’s genealogy as written in a variety of texts and >his tomb (Cerný 2001 (1973): 357-383). > What Serge and Czerny said is that the connection with the toponym "Tjaru" has been discounted. And that, otherwise, what "Tjaroy" [not necessarily the best transliteration of what is obviously a nickname] stands for is "unknown". >As Serge also pointed out, the transliteration of “Tjaroy†in this >case is / TA-Z1-r-[Z1]-i-i/, with Cerný suggesting the name was likely >pronounced “TÄ“re,†and was a ‘pet name’ (possibly a diminutive?) >based on a similar construction of name of /Tri/ formed from the longer >name of /nb-nTrw/, i.e., ’neb-entÄ“r’ (Ranke 1973 (1952): 392, No. 17; >Cerný 2001 (1973): 365, n. 5). Even in all variations of spellings of the >Djehutimose Tjaroy name [/T-Z1-r-Z1-i-A-ii/, /T-Z1-rw-Z1-ii/, >/T-Z1-r-Z1-rw-Z1-ii/, /T-Z1-r-Z1-r-Z1-ii/,/Twr-Z1-ii/, /Twr-Z1-Ti/ and >/T-Z5-r-Z1-T-Z1-iA/] which Cerný notes in some detail, there is no >variant which corresponds to /Twnroy/ (Cerný 2001 (1973): 366). > Obviously, you failed to check the cite from Hoch that I gave you, or you would see that this is not correct. The prescence of /n/ in the writing "Tjwneroy" means nothing--except as an indicator of the presence of "l"--instead of /r/. And there are the same indicators in the writings of "Tjaroy". There was someone named Nebneteru, whose nickname was "Try" but he lived in the time of the 22nd Dynasty. The "Try" comes from "nTrw", the last half of his name. But that would not be the case with someone whose Egyptian name was "DHwtyms"!! The diminutive of that name was "Tutu". Therefore, it seems to me that " Tjuneroy, Roy and Bay"--all members of the same family-- and "Tjaroy" are short for foreign names. The fact that the name was written starting either T[A] or Tw is not very significant--as by Ramesside times the semi-vowels had lost their true values, anyway, and were often interchangeable. Serge gave /T/ as "TA" because that was often its value in "group writing"--that is the spelling of foreign words and names. The hypochoristicon transliterated as "Roy" is not the same as "Raya"--because "Raya" is a nickname for someone who had the theophoric element "Ra" in his or her name. "Bay" was the nickname of another foreigner who assumed a great political place at the end of the 19th Dynasty and is probably short for a name that starts with "Ben". Ben-Azen, the cupbearer of Merneptah, is a likely candidate. >The only name close to the /Twnroy/ you mention was the royal scribe called >Tjuneroy, from the >19th Dynasty, during the reign of Ramses II, as >detailed by Geoffrey Martin (1991). It's not "close"--one is the proper writing of the other. And "Tjuneroy" was the brother of Paser, the Memphite. > However, from the genealogy Martin was able to reconstruct of Tjuneroy >and his family, from his >brother Paser's tomb and a few selected artefacts >from the now-lost tomb of Tjuneroy, they too >were likely Egyptian nobles, >who appeared to be firmly established as an important noble family in > >Memphis. What does "noble" mean? Does the fact that someone attained a high position mean that his family had been in Egypt practically "forever"? Another Memphite, Aper-el, was the northern vizier of Amenhotep III! And the Ramessides, themselves, were "parvenu". >The tomb of Tjuneroy, for example, contained slabs [now in the Cairo >Museum] which were >inscribed with a kinglist in its tomb chapel, listing >kings from the First Dynasty to the Ramesside >period, which formed part of >Tjuneroy's very select duties as sem- and lector-priest for the >deceased >kings' cult (Martin 1991: 123). Tjuneroy's name is rendered as >/Tw-n-Z2-r-Z1-ii/, >according to the rendering of a prayer stela of Paser, >as shown in Martin 1991: 116, No. 77. See above about the name "Tjuneroy". Unfortunately, his kinglist is garbled--but that has nothing to do with this discussion. > >The name of another Ramesside era scribe called Tjaroy, surnamed >Ramses-Nakht, is, however, transliterated as /TAry/, as noted in the Gohary >article cited earlier. > It doesn't signify. What you can't seem to see is that neither the spellings of "Tjaroy" or "Tjuneroy" are diminuatives of "DHwtymes" or "Ramses-Nakht". In fact, "Ramses-Nakht" is just the sort of name a foreigner would have assumed--just as was "Ramessesemperre". ============================================================================== From: "kerry52" To: Subject: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:18:52 -0400 Subject: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Please sign me up for the course George F.Averill ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 12:40:50 -0500 From: Allise Garrison Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Great idea, Karen. And I'm excited to see there are many people interested. My name is Allise Garrison, and I like in Kansas City, Missouri. I've studied Allen through distance learning with the Oriental Institute (which was a good course), but the course didn't cover the entire book. I've also studied through the British Centre for Egyptian Studies, another good course, but again, it only goes so far. I've been through the basics, but I'm anxious to learn more, which is hard to do on my own. Like a lot of people, I get stumped from time to time and have nowhere to turn with questions. I follow the translations on the list but they're often beyond my ability at this point. I'm excited about working with the group on Allen - a review of the early chapters will be valuable, and it will be great to work through them with the group. So I'll choose option 1: 1. I want to be in the General ME Allen study group, but don't plan to work with the group at any set pace, but I will post my questions and input as I go and follow the list traffic. Thanks for a great idea! Allise Garrison alliseg@everestkc.net ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 11:57:17 +0100 From: Robert Hoey To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book My name is Robert Hoey, i have a master degree in Computer Science specializing in Software Engineering, i live in St.Andrews, Scotland. I also would like to join the group and suggest starting with the first lesson and work my way through the book with the group. A separate group might be more sensible as regulars of this group would i think be a bit upset by the volume of posts generated by the new group. Best wishes Rob. ============================================================================== From: "Your Name" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Allen Beginner Group Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 17:21:53 -0400 i'm Denise, live in Southeastern Michigan. Did the first 3 chapters of Allen years ago in a mail course from the OI. i'd like to get back at it! Option 2: I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Denise Thomas (aka Vireo) AIM: vireonefer http://www.inkemetic.org -- ============================================================================== From: Raweaver02@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:48:19 EDT Subject: AEL Allen study group To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk 2. I=A0 want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with=A0 Lesson One and work my way through the book as a=A0 group. Rich Weaver ============================================================================== From: "Jill Kolsrud" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 19:26:33 -0400 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. My name is Jill Kolsrud and I am from the Charlotte, NC area where I work as a graphic artist. My college degrees are in journalism and art. I just ordered the book but it said it won't be here until approximately May 6th, so I hope that I can join in on time. I'm a complete beginner, although I have read through the first part of the Collier and Manley text. I took two semesters of Latin in college and three years of Spanish in high school. I have been interested in Egyptology my whole life and have read several books on the subject. I am especially interested in Ancient Egyptian wardrobe and daily life as well as the language, literature and writing. Thanks for organizing this list. I look forward to working through the text with you all! ============================================================================== From: "Denis Lessard" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: Re: AEL 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 18:09:34 -0400 Hi I want to join the Allen study group. My name is Denis and I live in Qu=E9bec city, Quebec, Canada. 2. I want to join the General ME Allen study group, and I also want to start with Lesson One and work my way through the book as a group. Best Regards to All, Denis Lessard ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 20:10:47 -0600 From: Jorge Vargas Subject: Re: AEL New Study group for beginners using James P. Allen's book To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk, AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Ditto! Same here. No book yet! Greetings from Costa Rica. "The Hawk" (Ka Fe) ==============================================================================