From: "Leslie Bailey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Game 5 Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:17:28 -0500 1. `nx-t3wy Memphis 2. jpt-swt temple of Karnak 3. Ddw Busiris 4. nxn Hieraconpolis (Kom el-Ahmar) 5. 6. p Pe, Buto (Fara`ain) 7. jwnyt Latopolis 8. 9. 10. 11. w3st Thebes 12. jwnw On, Heliopolis (el-Matariyah) 13. s3w Sais (Sa el-Hagar) 14. 15. st m3`t place (seat) of Maat's Temple 16. bHpt Behdet (Tell el-Balamun) 17. jwnw On, Heliopolis (el-Matariyah) 18. nxb El-Kab 19. 20. gbtyw Coptus 21. st nfrw 22. jwnw Sm`w Thebes 23. 24. Hwt sSSt 25. 3bxw Abydos (Arabah el-Madfuwah) 26. Hwt ptH k3 chapel of Ptah's Ka Memphis 27. jwnt Denderah 28. mn-nfr Memphis 29. 30. dp Dep (part of Delta town of Buto) 31. 3x-bjt Chemmis 32. 33. nbt Ombos 34. 35. jsrw precinct of Mut at Karnak ============================================================================== From: "Leslie Bailey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Game 5 - 8 & 10 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:26:04 -0500 8. Ddwt Mendes (Tell er-Rubal) 10. Db3 Edfu P.S.- Please add Esna to # 7 of my previous post ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:51:02 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New Person gets feet wet... Hi, Julie, > Would you happen to know of a book with a lot of good examples? Try _Reading Egyptian Art_ by Wilkinson. I am presently away from my books so I cannot look for anything at the moment. Be well. Geoff Graham ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:07:29 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Hans van Haarst Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9, L6-7 At 23:28 22-11-97 +1100, mike wrote: > REGARDING Westcar P9, L6-7 > >Dear Hans, > >L6 : iwh.in sw Xnmw m pA it > >"Then Khnum loaded himself with the barley" >Now let me understand the situation, Khnum is impersonating a porter (?), so >he is the one who picks up the barley. So 'sw' refers to himself rather than >to someone/something else. How would you normally provide barley, in sacks or >in jars? Do they say how much barley? We translated 'it' as barley, but would >the final stroke determinative really mean 'one measure of barley'? If so, how >much would this be? Presumably easy for one person to carry? Dear Mike, Khnum as a porter is also for me something that escapes me. You are right about the stroke, I overlooked it. It is clearly there in the original hieratic in my edition of Blackman . So it has to be your suggestion : " one sack of barley " Isn't it strange that the gods get paid in beer (barley) and that they have to carry it themselves ? > Line 7: wDA pw iri.n=sn r-bw ii.n=sn im >I love this one: 'Then they proceeded to the place they had come from." >Or, "Then they left for the place from which they had come." > >Notes: >a) this begins with a nominal construction (infin-pw-relative form) like line >28 of the previous page (p8). >b) the noun 'bw' (place) is modified by the following adjectival form of the >verb 'ii', ie. a relative form (?) "they had come" >c) im (from). Sorry, can someone explain the function of this again for me? Is >it an adverb, modifying the verbal adjective? > >Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith >Melbourne > The complete construction is r bw ii.n=sn im=f. This last "f" functions as a resumptive pronoun. It refers to "bw" . But you can leave it out, so I think your translation is correct. The form ii.n=sn is a sDm.n=f relative form ( perfect relative form ). Best wishes Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:53:16 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9, L6-7 Hi, Mike and Hans, > >L6 : iwh.in sw Xnmw m pA it > >"Then Khnum loaded himself with the barley" > Now let me understand the situation, Khnum is impersonating a porter (?), so > he is the one who picks up the barley. So 'sw' refers to himself rather than > to someone/something else. How would you normally provide barley, in sacks or > in jars? Do they say how much barley? We translated 'it' as barley, but would > the final stroke determinative really mean 'one measure of barley'? If so, how > much would this be? Presumably easy for one person to carry? Probably in a sack. I don't know much about measures but I think Gardiner has a hole section about it. > OK, next line: > Line 7: wDA pw iri.n=sn r-bw ii.n=sn im > I love this one: 'Then they proceeded to the place they had come from." > Or, "Then they left for the place from which they had come." > > Notes: > a) this begins with a nominal construction (infin-pw-relative form) like line > 28 of the previous page (p8). > b) the noun 'bw' (place) is modified by the following adjectival form of the > verb 'ii', ie. a relative form (?) "they had come" > c) im (from). Sorry, can someone explain the function of this again for me? Is > it an adverb, modifying the verbal adjective? Sounds good. yes, jj.n=sn is a sDm,n=f relative. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:21:37 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Game 5 Hi, Leslie, Nice job. > 1. `nx-t3wy Memphis Yes. This is one of Memphis' districts in which the great temple of Sekhmet was to be found. > 2. jpt-swt temple of Karnak Yes. or jp3.t-3sw.t It means "most revered/hidden/select of places", of course, this is the great temple of Amun-Re, considered the throne of the universe from Dynasty XVIII through the Late Period. > 3. Ddw Busiris Yes, modern Abu-Sir, the original home of Sokar-Osiris. It was paired with Abydos as the Osirian city of the North, while Abydos was that of the South. > 4. nxn Hieraconpolis (Kom el-Ahmar) Yes. This is the ancient Horus city, whence Dynasty 0 is thought to have arisen. It was considered the paradigmatic capital of Upper Egypt, and its jackal-headed (cynocephalic) "souls" were said to rejoice at every coronation or royal rite performed for a king wearing the white crown of the south. It is, of course right across the river from its sister city of Eileithyaspolis, in the same way that Pe was across from Dep in the North. > 5. OK, everyone, keep note that someone needs to figure out number 5 still. > 6. p Pe, Buto (Fara`ain) Yes, Tell el-Fara`in. This is the ancient paradigmatic capital of Lower Egypt, parallel with Hierakonpolis (#4). Its "soul"s were falcon headed, (hieracocephalic) and they rejoiced for kings of the North. It was the Northern Horus city, right across the river from Dep. It was the location of the temple of Uto (w3Dy.t), the cobra goddess of the red crown, the lady of the North. > 7. jwnyt Latopolis Yes. Otherwise known as Esna today. It is the place in Upper egypt where Neith and Khnum were worshiped. The Lates fish was sacred to Neith there and this is where the Greek city name comes from. > 8. > 9. > 10. OK, we still need attempts at 8, 9, and 10. > 11. w3st Thebes Yes. Modern Luxor. > 12. jwnw On, Heliopolis (el-Matariyah) Yes. The city of the sun. The source of much of the national religion from the Old Kingdom on. > 13. s3w Sais (Sa el-Hagar) Yes. The original home town of Neith in the Western Delta. It became the capital during Dynasties XXIV and XXVI. > 14. Still needs to be treated. > 15. st m3`t place (seat) of Maat's Temple Well, you have the general idea, but there is a very specific place for which this is the classical designation. It is someplace that all of you will know quite well, but this is the ancient way of referring to it. > 16. bHpt Behdet (Tell el-Balamun) Yes, you mean bHd.t (surely a typo ;-P). Yes, it was the sacred city of the winged disk of Horus. There was a Lower Egyptian one at Balamun and an Upper Egyptian one at Edfu. > 17. jwnw On, Heliopolis (el-Matariyah) Well, almost, but look carefully at the last sign and then give a re-assessment of it. > 18. nxb El-Kab Yes. This is the sister city of Hierakonpolis, known to the Greeks as Eileithyaspolis, wherein the temple of Nekhbet (Eileithyas) lay. She was the lady of the white crown, the vulture goddess of the South, and her child Horus lived accross the river in Nekhen (Hierakonpolis). > 19. Still unidentified,, but exceedingly interesting, as you shall all see. > 20. gbtyw Coptus Yes. The city that made its fortune from the trade with the Red sea directed up and down the Wadi Hammamat. The temple of Min was there. > 21. st nfrw Well, yes, that is the transliteration: any ideas as to what place it designates? It is very interesting and it stands in parallel to something above, if you think about it. > 22. jwnw Sm`w Thebes Hmmmm, certainly not far off the mark...you may be mixing up your numbers. Try again, and think carefully. > 23. One of my favorite spots, it is an important necropolis, can anyone figure it out? > 24. Hwt sSSt Yes, but where might that be? What was its Greek name? What is its present name? > 25. 3bxw Abydos (Arabah el-Madfuwah) Yes, 3bDw (surely a typo ;-P). This is of course the ancient necropolis of This (Thinite capital), where Khentamenthes was worshipped and later came to be identified as Osiris. > 26. Hwt ptH k3 chapel of Ptah's Ka Memphis Yes, the district of the Ptah temple in Memphis, from which, of course, the English word "Egypt" is thought to be derived, through Greek aigyptos and Lating egyptus. > 27. jwnt Denderah Yes. Tentyris, from t3-jwn.t-nTr.t "the Iunet of the goddess", modern Dandara. (notice variant spellings. You should all be aware that there is no correct standard for spelling Arabic names, only conventions). > 28. mn-nfr Memphis Yes. This was originally the designation of the pyramid complex of king Teti of Dynasty VI, but it was right in the heart of the necropolis and came, for unknown reasons, to give its name to Memphis as a whole. > 29. Still need to determine this one. > 30. dp Dep (part of Delta town of Buto) Yes. Site of the Uto (Wadjyt) temple across from Tell el-Fara`in. > 31. 3x-bjt Chemmis Yes, the birth place of Horus, son of Isis. Sometimes renedered as xb or xb.t (which are probably abbreviations for more correct 3x-bj.t). Herodotus called it Khemmis, and said it was a floating island, this was so that he could identify it with Delos where Apollo had been born in the Aegean world. > 32. Still need to get this one. > 33. nbt Ombos Yes, Modern Tukh and Naqada, the city of Seth, an ancient metropolis of great importance in the Predynastic era, not to be confused with Kom Ombo, which many people mistakenly do. Of particular interest is the fact that Dendara and Ombos seem to have been in some eternal competition and feuding with one another regarding the leadership of the 6th Upper Egyptian Nome. > 34. Still need this one. > 35. jsrw precinct of Mut at Karnak Yes, Asheru, the Mut temple. (jSr.w) As, usual, you do nice work, Leslie. Now, let's hone in on these last ones and see if we can figure them all out. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:25:40 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 5 - 8 & 10 Hi, Leslie, > 8. Ddwt Mendes (Tell er-Rubal) Yes, the capital of Dynasty 29, wherein was worshipped b3-nb-Dd.t "the ram lord of Djedet" = Mendes. > 10. Db3 Edfu Yes, Apollinopolis Megalo (Greater Apollo City) an important cult site of Horus in his form of the sun god. > P.S.- Please add Esna to # 7 of my previous post yes, indeed. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: Neil Parker Subject: AEL Game 5 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:07:24 -0800 (PST) Time to break my silence and contribute something. Here are some attempts at game 5. Unfortunately, the only dictionary I can reliably get access to is Budge, so adjust your expectations accordingly. 1. anx-tA.wy, "Life of the Two Lands" = a district of Memphis 2. jpt-s.wt, Karnak 3. Ddw, Busiris 4. nxn, Hierokonpolis 5. swnw, Pelusium 6. p, Pe (part of Buto) 7. jwnyt, Sen or Sni or Asna? 8. Dd.t, Mendes 9. jb?, Elephantine? 10. DbA, Apollinopolis Magna 11. wAs.t, Thebes 12. jwnw, Heliopolis 13. sAw, Sais 14. tA-sny.t, Asna??? 15. s.t-Sw.t or s.t-MAa.t, Edfu? 16. bHd.t, Behudet 17. jwnw-rs, "the Southern Heliopolis", Hermonthis (according to Budge; I think I remember reading somewhere that this should be Thebes) 18. nxb, Eileithyiaspolis 19. DAmw.t, Egypt 20. gbtyw, ??? (Budge doesn't have this) 21. s.t-nfr, Denderah? 22. jwnw-mnT, "Heliopolis of Monthu", Hermonthis 23. r-stAw, Rostau (=Saqqara?) 24. Hw.t-sSS.t, Diospolis Parva, or Denderah 25. AbDw, Abydos 26. Hw.t-kA-ptH, "House of the ka of Ptah", Memphis 27. jwn.t, Heliopolis? 28. mn-nfr, Memphis 29. jT-tA.wy, "Taker of the Two Lands" (Budge says it's the name of a fortress) 30. dp, Dep (part of Buto) 31. jdH-bj.t?, Natho? 32. mxA-tA.wy?, ??? (Budge doesn't have it) 33. nb.t, Ombos 34. Tb-nTr, Sebennytus 35. jSrw, a part of Thebes - Neil Parker, nparker@llx.com ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:13:05 +0000 Subject: AEL Administrative: AOL rejecting messages More than 200 error messages have been receive from AOL, reporting that messages could not be delivered to AOL mailboxes due to an "Access Denied" error. It seems to be working now, but if you are subscribed to AEL from an AOL account, you may want to check the list archives for any messages that you may have missed. The affected period seems to have been between Friday and Sunday. The archive for last week is at: http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/archives/week41.txt Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:28:56 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Hans van Haarst Subject: AEL Westcar P4 L12 Hello to everybody, The transliteration of P4 L12 : aHa.n rdi.n=f ini=tw n=f xtaA iri=tw r=f m mi.t.y.t In my edition of the Readingbook by de Buck and in my edition of Blackman the last verbform is iri.n.tw The verbform is initial and can not be a continuation of the previous sentence, because circumstantial sDm.n.tw=f is not allowed. The passive sDm.w=f would then have to be used (aHa.n sDm.w=f). If you rule out the existence of an indicative sDm.n=f, then it has to be the nominal/emphatic form of sDm.n=f. The translation : "The way one handled it, was in the same manner." the emphasis lying on "in the same manner". Now i asked myself why was this heavy construction used simply to say that the aHa-bird was handled in the same manner ? These stories were originally being told to people (in the same way as the troubadours did in the Middle Ages) because almost nobody could read or write. Maybe such a construction was written down by a scribe when he heard a pause in the story: "Now the way one handled it was ....... in the same manner !" The pause was introduced by the storyteller to catch the attention of the audience. The cleft sentence is of course our way to translate the Egytian sentence, it is not original a cleft sentence. Well otherwise we can just see it as a indicative sDm.n=f and translate it as a plain sentence : "One handled it in the same manner." Maybe i am making too much out of a simple sentence, so can anybody who has a greater knowledge about these forms tell me if i am wrong ? Best wishes Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:58:14 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 5 Hi, Neil, > Time to break my silence and contribute something. You are certainly welcome to join the fray. I love to seee new people build up the confidence to ppost something, especially when they do so well as you seem to be doing here! > 1. anx-tA.wy, "Life of the Two Lands" = a district of Memphis > 2. jpt-s.wt, Karnak > 3. Ddw, Busiris > 4. nxn, Hierokonpolis All correct. > 5. swnw, Pelusium Very close. This is extremely similar to the name of that location, in fact identical in some of its spellings, but I was thinking of another place. Ptolemaic Esna. However, I cannot say that you are wrong. > 6. p, Pe (part of Buto) > 7. jwnyt, Sen or Sni or Asna? Yes > 8. Dd.t, Mendes > 9. jb?, Elephantine? Yes, 3bw > 10. DbA, Apollinopolis Magna Yes, Edfu > 11. wAs.t, Thebes > 12. jwnw, Heliopolis > 13. sAw, Sais > 14. tA-sny.t, Asna??? Yes, very good. > 15. s.t-Sw.t or s.t-MAa.t, Edfu? No, this one seems to be a tough one, but it is really quite famous. Not Edfu, though. > 16. bHd.t, Behudet Yes, both Balamun and Edfu are Lower and Upper Behdet. > 17. jwnw-rs, "the Southern Heliopolis", Hermonthis (according to Budge; I > think I remember reading somewhere that this should be Thebes) > You are quite right. 18. nxb, Eileithyiaspolis > 19. DAmw.t, Egypt The reading is Dm.t and in Coptic it was {cEme} which the Greeks thought sounded like the name of which Greek city? Come on!!! > 20. gbtyw, ??? (Budge doesn't have this) Koptos > 21. s.t-nfr, Denderah? No, it goes together with 15, any more guesses as to what is going on in these two? > 22. jwnw-mnT, "Heliopolis of Monthu", Hermonthis Yes > 23. r-stAw, Rostau (=Saqqara?) Yes, or Giza, it is not clear how much of the Memphite necropolis was included in this designation. There is also pD.w (sometimes read as pD.w-Sj) which might be Saqqara while Rosetjau is Giza, in any even it is the Memphite necropolis par excellence. > 24. Hw.t-sSS.t, Diospolis Parva, or Denderah The first one, now called Hiw, cult center of the goddess Baet. > 25. AbDw, Abydos yes > 26. Hw.t-kA-ptH, "House of the ka of Ptah", Memphis Yes > 27. jwn.t, Heliopolis? No, this one is Dendara. > 28. mn-nfr, Memphis Yes > 29. jT-tA.wy, "Taker of the Two Lands" (Budge says it's the name of a fortress) yes, it was the Capital city during the 12th and 13th dynasties, somewhere between Memphis and the Faiyum no doubt. > 30. dp, Dep (part of Buto) Yes. > 31. jdH-bj.t?, Natho? No, this one is Khemmis. > 32. mxA-tA.wy?, ??? (Budge doesn't have it) It is a designation for Memphis as the "Malance of the Two Lands" m-x3j.t-t3.wy > 33. nb.t, Ombos Yes > 34. Tb-nTr, Sebennytus Yes, the city of Isis in the Delta, modern Samannud > 35. jSrw, a part of Thebes Yes. Very good job, Neil. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.ci.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:17:32 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: blochprint@zelacom.com (Julie Purple) Subject: AEL Word help? Hi, folks I am in the middle of a project and I need some help with some words. It is not a major scholarly work, suffice to say; it's a silly little thing just for fun, just as an excuse to work with the hieroglyphs. But... I am unable to find in my books all the words I'd like to use. Here are the words I would like to know how to write: puppy frog owl And as an added incentive, anyone who helps gets a copy of my little project, if s/he likes. (via the postal system; it's a little booklet) Thanks in advance for your help! Julie Julie Bloch blochprint@zelacom.com * * * (@v@) * * * ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:12:58 +0000 From: atlixco To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Available Translations Dear List Members, I have recieved much help from you regarding resources for the beginning of study of Egyptian. During this time I have also looked at various populist works on Egypt, while also fumbling around like a blind man in trying to start a library of texts that would be useful for a time when I am tentatively able to make some starts at translation myself. I must say that it is undeniable that Egypt has a quality of seduction without parallel among more recent civilisation. Because of this many people come to Egypt with differing expectations, and there is obviously a history of exegesis that has been controversial even from the beginning. I know that this is drawing close to speaking about a subject that is close to what is proscribed by the list owner, but the fact that he has cause to mention it means that it will be something that all those who learn egyptian are going to have to deal with in the future, even those who embark on the study from personal motives that stem from the desire to learn a glyphic language are no doubt going to be answering questions by friends who might have come across the more incredulous claims made by some who in fact make their money out of outrageous theories, in this instance I speak of Von Daniken & his ilk. It is not my intention here to make any claim that an esoteric interpretation must be taken into consideration when studying egypt but to propose what seems to me to be the way of defusing such arguments so that both sides can carry on without rancor. Because it seems to me that argument in this field has a deleterious effect in the study of Egypt in that the academic egyptologists may tend to reserve materials in publication making it more difficult to proceed in learning lest one has the resources of a university. My motive in writing is that it is plain to me that there are problems anyway in translation when one is dealing with an enigmatic people so far from us. I just recieved a copy of the Pyramid texts translated by Faulkner. I was disappointed because I had expected that the translation would be accompanied by the hieroglyphs. It seems to me that in science when publishing one must show the evidence & sources of your conclusions. Unfortunately the case seems to be that all of what purports to be academic egyptology can only too easily be only available to the amateur as a populist work when presented without the evidence which is the hieroglyphic text. To be sure Faulkner does refer to the hieroglyphic edition from which he takes his translation, however I suspect that this work is going to be either unavailable in print or prohibitively expensive. Two months ago I read John Antony West's book Serpent in the Sky. Now two things stick in my mind about the book, one his discussion of comparative translations of a pyramid utterance, and the little talk about number symbolism (because I have an interest in this). The impression left in the layman's mind due to this is that somehow West is more scientific than Faulkner in relation to his book of pyramid texts. However I also have the Faulkner Book of the Dead in the Wasserman edition. Here the impression of an unscientific work does not impinge subconsciously. The Hieroglyphics give the impression to the subconscious of an abstruse & learned work, which is due to the subconscious filling in the vacuum of incomprehension of the hieroglyphs with some label of the whole work as abstruse & learned. My point here is that publishing translations with the hieroglyphs may be an added expense but that this may be worth while to counter the escalating interest of wacky New Agers in Egypt. It's not much but what one is working on is the impression on the mind. I have though bought a copy of West's other work "The Traveler's Key to Ancient Egypt". It is interesting how his tone changes when he is writing a book that isn't directly the subject in which he is on his hobby horse. I do believe that here where he is mainly addressing the modern tourist he does very well. His obnoxious tone in referring to academic egyptologists is dropped, and he covers the subject & it's controversies in a well mannered way. I have some questions to ask on this later. Personally I am not without an understanding of todays interest in the esoteric, and what is covered in religion & occultism. But I think that in the study of egypt certain unseen realities about the psychology of spiritual teachings comes plainly into view. It was a bit of a surprise to me to learn that the legends of egypt that are well known, mainly the Osiran myths are not found in Egypt in a coherent form but are pieced together from disparate sources; and that some aspects of them may come from greek sources. It seems to me that in egyptology there are two different things going on, which should be kept separate. The first thing is archeology. This is a science that must seek to discover what is there in egypt & to the extent that is possible, seek to establish how this would be integrated as the life of egypt, however if they were to find statues that were found to be graeco-roman relating to the worship of serapis, they must distinguish that they are now moving into the archaeology of greece & rome. Now alternatively you have the work of Scwaller de Lubicz. Here you have something different. Schwaller de Lubicz was someone who had made great studies in pythagorean thought & alchemy among other things. His work in Egypt though it was meticulous in applying the scientific method to the measurement and recording of the temple of Luxor, cannot be accorded to be archaeology in the way it was set out above. This is because there is a projective element in it. His motive is not really to discover how the egyptian mind thought but to discover what the effect of egypt was upon his own mind in opening it to wider dimensions. I have no quarrel with that but see it as a different category of investigation than pure academic investigation. I believe that the trouble arises when it is claimed that his writing up of the results of this are purported to be what was in the mind of egyptians. Perhaps I can make this clearer by giving an example of how this is in an interpretation of the symbols in hieroglyphs of the snake. The word can be given some creedence that it was interpreted by the egyptians to relate to consciousness as a metaphor of the nervous system because of the spinal cord & perhaps of duality because of the forked tongue, this may be not thought to be beyond what was available to the egyptians in making metaphors, however as a modern I can observe it's way of moving & get the idea of the sine wave! Now here I think I am getting on difficult ground if I begin to assume that the egyptians were familiar with sinewaves as a principle underlying many phenomena. Quite quickly I might be extrapolating to theories of the pyramids being landing beacons for ufo's who presented the egyptians with oscilloscopes. This obviously has nothing to do with Egypt but a lot to do with the ambiguity of some of the symbolism that they employed. I think that pointing out to people that indeed hieroglyphs are very effective in evoking your own projections & that to do so may well be helpful to personal consciousness, but that in the archaeological study of egypt we must try to stick as closely as possible to what can reasonably be based on the internal evidence of the culture of it's time is the best possible strategy in dealing with this problem without causing rancor & forcing people to defensively hold onto arguments that aren't contextually sound. That egypt is a source of interpretations that weren't held by the egyptians may well have been experienced historically by themselves. Here again I am projecting onto an egyptian myth, the myth of the dismemberment of Osiris. Following the form of exegesis of the Greek myths by Robert Graves in which much myth is relation on one level of tribal history. The scattering of Osiris' limbs across the nomes of Egypt & the difficulty Isis had in not finding the phallus of Osiris, could refer to perhaps the attempts of greek & other travellers to interpret the temples etc of egypt, but the missing phallus could refer to their not having the generative power or key to interpret it in the egyptian sense. I must apologise for this lengthy treatise. I offer it as perhaps helpful in extinguishing problems that appear to have reached some rancor in egyptology, that may well be effecting, in the sense that it seems difficult to obtain materials that pertain to understanding egypt oneself. It seems that one response of the establishment is often to reserve the materials for itself which is perhaps not a healthy reaction. As to the materials I am trying to get hold of. I would like to find some volume that will portray the tomb texts & wall paintings referring to the various books such as the book of what is in the duat, book of gates etc. It is next my intention to get some books that cover the Temples. Because of ommissions in this work which should have been covered by egyptology the only work I know of is Schwaller de Lubiczs Temple of Man referring to luxor. I'm not really looking for works that go into the construction as deeply as his purports to do but as long as resumes of the temples etc. are not made available by academic egyptologists, what the public believes about egypt will fall to the symbolists. yours atlixco ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:38:55 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Word help? Hi, Julie I'd love to help you, but I am away on vacation right now, so have no books to consult. Next week I will be back at Yale and could find anything you need. However, I remember a few things, maybe someone with resources could look them up. > puppy In the Late Egyptian tale of the Doomed Prince the puppy was referred to as a ktkt Srj, meaning something like "little wiggler", however I do not know if this is the word for "puppy" or just an epithet for one. > frog I seem to recall that it is called qrr and comes out in Coptic as {krour}. > owl > And as an added incentive, anyone who helps gets a copy > of my little project, if s/he likes. (via the postal system; it's > a little booklet) > Thanks in advance for your help! > Julie I don't believe I ever knew an Egyptian word for this, however in Coptic it was {mouloc} that is all I can remember, sorry. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:20:22 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Word help? Julie Purple wrote: > Here are the > words I would like to know how to write: > puppy > frog > owl abxn "frog" (Faulkner, p.41) pggt "toad", or "frog" (Faulkner, p.96) I suspect that the Egyptians called a puppy a "little dog." There are several words for dog: Tsm "hound" (Faulkner, p.308) iw "dog" (Faulkner, p.12) iwiw "dog" (Faulkner, p.12) [possibly sounded like barking - "owow"] So you might have something like "iwiw Srw" for puppy. I didn't come up with anything for owl. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:33:11 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Available Translations Hello, Atlixco, > My point here is that publishing translations with the hieroglyphs > may be an added expense but that this may be worth while to counter the > escalating interest of wacky New Agers in Egypt. It's not much but what > one is working on is the impression on the mind. In order to publish the hieroglyphs one would have to be very selective, for there are several different pyramids with these texts and not all of them are the same, and the publication by Kurt Sethe gives some four or five versions, and each version has different orthography. All in all, it would take about four hefty volumes to include the hieroglyphs alone. Piankoff published all the texts from the pyramid of Unas and that book is pretty large in itself. It may not be considered practical by publishers to put out such a thing that so few people would be likely to buy. Moreover, even it they did publish the hieroglyphs alongside Faulnkner's translation at great expense and difficulty, most people would not be able to read these accompanying glyphs in the first place. The Old Egyptian of the Pyramid Texts is almost the most difficult Egyptian one could attempt to work with. The number of people who would seriously be able to do anything with the glyphs would probably end up being limited to the same pool of people who already have access or know how to get access to the Sethe editions anyway. I can understand your frustration. Maybe the solution to such a thing is to take certain selected spells and publish them in this fashion, otherwise we are talking about a publication about the size of an Encyclopedia Britanica, and I just don't know how many people can either afford, or have the patience to read through such an enormous proposition, much less even lug it home with them from the bookstore! Moreover, once the New Agers discover the contents they will probably get bored with it pretty fast, because it does not meet their hefty expectations about the meaning of life, or the Atlantian invaders from Jupiter. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:10:59 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: blochprint@zelacom.com (Julie Purple) Subject: Re: AEL Word help? Thanks! So... to what address should I send the little book when it's done? (It's just a silly little thing, like a kids' book, but I had to make *something* with 'glyphs!) Julie >Julie Purple wrote: > >> Here are the >> words I would like to know how to write: >> puppy >> frog >> owl > >abxn "frog" (Faulkner, p.41) >pggt "toad", or "frog" (Faulkner, p.96) > >I suspect that the Egyptians called a puppy a "little dog." There are several >words for dog: >Tsm "hound" (Faulkner, p.308) >iw "dog" (Faulkner, p.12) >iwiw "dog" (Faulkner, p.12) [possibly sounded like barking - "owow"] >So you might have something like "iwiw Srw" for puppy. > >I didn't come up with anything for owl. > > >-- >Stephen Fryer >Lund Computer Services > >************************************************** >The more answers I find, the more questions I have >************************************************** > > Julie Bloch blochprint@zelacom.com * * * (@v@) * * * ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 04:58:07 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar P9, L8-11 To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar P9, L8-11 So, the gods have transported themselves back to heaven. Now Isis seems to make a complaint to the others about their recent performance down on earth: L8: aHa.n Dd.n As.t n nn ntr.w#000# "Then Isis said to these gods, ..." L9: ptr nA-ntt n ii.wyn r=s#000# "... "How is this that we have come from her [ie. RedDjedet].." Notes: a) I am not sure of the meaning of 'na ntt'. I have made a guess. b) ii.wyn is the stative form of the verb. L10: nn iri.t biA.y.t n nA-n-Xrd.w#000# "... without performing a miracle for the 3 infants..." Notes: iri.t, I take as an infinitive. L11: s-mi=n n pAy=sn it rdi.w iiw.t=n#000# "and report to their father that we returned?" Notes: OK, this is a difficult one for me. Is this really a separate sentence or a continuation of the previous. I have taken the latter stance. Is 'rdi.w' a passive verb form? Is 'iiw.t' the infinitive? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:56:05 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Hans van Haarst Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9, L8-11 At 04:58 27-11-97 +1100, you wrote: > REGARDING Westcar P9, L8-11 > >So, the gods have transported themselves back to heaven. Now Isis seems to >make a complaint to the others about their recent performance down on earth: > >L8: aHa.n Dd.n As.t n nn ntr.w#000# > "Then Isis said to these gods, ..." > >L9: ptr nA-ntt n ii.wyn r=s#000# > "... "How is this that we have come from her [ie. RedDjedet].." >Notes: > a) I am not sure of the meaning of 'na ntt'. I have made a guess. > b) ii.wyn is the stative form of the verb. > >L10: nn iri.t biA.y.t n nA-n-Xrd.w#000# > "... without performing a miracle for the 3 infants..." >Notes: > iri.t, I take as an infinitive. > >L11: s-mi=n n pAy=sn it rdi.w iiw.t=n#000# > "and report to their father that we returned?" > >Notes: OK, this is a difficult one for me. Is this really a separate sentence >or a continuation of the previous. I have taken the latter stance. Is 'rdi.w' >a passive verb form? Is 'iiw.t' the infinitive? > >Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith >Melbourne > Dear Mike, The last sentence is indeed a difficult one. First i thought of smi=sn as a prospective sDm=f: " so that they could report ". But maybe smi=n is a prospective relative form, rdi.w can be a perfective active participle and iw.t=n a prospective sDm=f used circumstantially. The translation would then be : the miracles, " that we can report to their father, who caused us to come ". The same verbform iw.t is used in L13. I have always difficulty in identifying these relative forms, because almost never you will find smy=f but mostly smi=f. Also L10 i found rather difficult. The ntt (the neutrum of nty) is used here because nA is neutrum. Then the sentence begins with the pronomen interrogativum (i am sorry i don't know the english term) ptr/pty : " What ". So litterally it is translated as : " What is the it that we have gone back from her ? " I wonder about the verb 'to come'. This verb has two roots : iy and iw. In L12 iy is used and in L13 iw. Does iy mean ' go back ' and iw mean ' go forth ' ? The possible translation would then be : " What is the matter, that we have gone back from her, without performing miracles for those children, that we can report to their father, who let us go forth ? " Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:40:35 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9, L8-11 Hi, Mike, > L8: aHa.n Dd.n As.t n nn ntr.w#000# > "Then Isis said to these gods, ..." > > L9: ptr nA-ntt n ii.wyn r=s#000# > "... "How is this that we have come from her [ie. RedDjedet].." I would have gone for: "What is that for which we have come" > L10: nn iri.t biA.y.t n nA-n-Xrd.w#000# > "... without performing a miracle for the 3 infants..." "if not to make a miracle for these children" > L11: s-mi=n n pAy=sn it rdi.w iiw.t=n#000# > "and report to their father that we returned?" "that we might report (it) to their father who caused us to come?" Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:04:53 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9, L8-11 Hi, Hans, > >L8: aHa.n Dd.n As.t n nn ntr.w#000# > >L9: ptr nA-ntt n ii.wyn r=s#000# > >L10: nn iri.t biA.y.t n nA-n-Xrd.w#000# > >L11: s-mi=n n pAy=sn it rdi.w iiw.t=n#000# > the miracles, " that we can report to their father, who caused us to come Yes, I think you are quite right about it. > Also L10 i found rather difficult. The ntt (the neutrum of nty) i Usually we refer to it as the feminine of nty, at least that is the way I was taught it, though, yes, it refers to "general case" feminine which is of course something like a neuter in Middle Egyptian, though the masculine becomes the default in Late Egyptian. I always found that very interesting how that change ended up occurring. s used > here because nA is neutrum. We generally consider n3 to be plural, but, of course, in effect it really is "neuter" though grammatically plural in the Egyptian. Egyptian used many plurals where English would use a sigular. n3 or nn often refers to "words", "deeds", in this case, "these things for which we have come", but English simply would not use a plural here in most cases, so it makes literal translation kind of awkward. And, of course, you are right that the Egyptian n3, nn, nf, et... paragigm did originate in a neuter, even though the neuter was dead even in Old Egyptian, having only survived as a place holder for the plural... or at least it was explained to me something like that once upon a time. :-) Then the sentence begins with the pronomen > interrogativum (i am sorry i don't know the english term) ptr/pty : Yes, you got it, we call it an "interrogative pronoun", ...going for the Latin designation is usually the safest way to be understood when translating into another Eguropean language. " What > ". So litterally it is translated as : " What is the it that we have gone > back from her ? " No, I think the =s in this case is a kind of resumptive pronoun refering back to ptr and n3, making it mean something like "that for which". It is true that it seems odd to come after a stative (Old Perfective) verb, but remember that jj.t/jw.t is a verb of motion so, rather than using a sDm.n=f, its normal past tense would be in the stative. I have translsated this in a previous post, so I won't repeat it here. Of course, there might yet be other interpretations. ;-P Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 02:40:58 +0000 From: atlixco To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Available Translations > Dear Geoff Graham, Thanks for your reply, I recognise that you are right of course, I suppose that I am as you said a bit frustrated. It is true that the hieroglyphic texts are not writings with great content often but I think that if we were to see egyptian processions and the texts treated as hymns with music it would have a very powerful impression, and give a great sense of the integrated values of a nation. Luckily there is much interest in treating egyptian as a language in itself. I have begun reading the sign list at the back of Gardiner's grammar, & recalling ccer's hieroglyphica book which is based on Gardiner's category system, I gather ccer's book doesn't go into the meaning of their 4700 signs as Gardiner's list does. Is there any work that fills in this information? Also I have got from the web a beinlich list, but don't know what exactly it represents. Is this a list of the words in the worterbuch or does it encompass more than that, as well does anyone know if this is actually being translated into english currently or what? yours atlixco ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:08:38 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9, L8-11 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL Westcar P9, L8-11 Hans wrote: > The ntt (the neutrum of nty) is used here because nA is neutrum 'nA' is also used for plural nouns. My first impression for a translation for 'nA-ntt n' was 'the likes of us', so the sentence would start out meaning: "What sort of people are we to have come from her...'. Is 'nA ntt' some idiomatic expression? > maybe smi=n is a prospective relative form ... If so, then shouldn't it modify the preceding noun (ie. "children")? Then the meaning would be," the three children that we will report...". I find this a bit difficult to grasp. I still like the continuation "... for the 3 children and report to their father the cause of our return(ing)." Note my change to the last part of the sentence. My feeling is that Isis is trying to persuade the others that it may be a little tricky explaining to their boss the reasons they have returned without having done any godly works below. Perhaps this is some kind of idiomatic expression? What do you think? Now there was a nice article in Lingua Aegyptia 1 (1991), 357-387, by Jean Winand, which gave a pretty solid case for ii and iw being different writings of the same verb. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 03:27:27 -0500 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Westcar, p. 4 L12 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Hans wrote: The transliteration of P4 L12 : aHa.n rdi.n=f ini=tw n=f xtaA iri=tw r=f m mi.t.y.t In my edition of the Readingbook by de Buck and in my edition of Blackman the last verbform is iri.n.tw The verbform is initial and can not be a continuation of the previous sentence, because circumstantial sDm.n.tw=f is not allowed. The passive sDm.w=f would then have to be used (aHa.n sDm.w=f). If you rule out the existence of an indicative sDm.n=f, then it has to be the nominal/emphatic form of sDm.n=f. The translation : "The way one handled it, was in the same manner." the emphasis lying on "in the same manner". Now i asked myself why was this heavy construction used simply to say that the aHa-bird was handled in the same manner ? ----------------- How about: "It was treated in the very same way." Or ..."in just the same way." or some such thing. Note that the construction is not particularly "heavy" in Egyptian. James Hoch james_hoch@campuslife.utoronto.ca -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:17:04 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9, L8-11 Michael Dyall-Smith 'ecrit : > REGARDING Westcar P9, L8-11 > > L9: ptr nA-ntt n ii.wyn r=s#000# > "... "How is this that we have come from her [ie. RedDjedet].." Another possibility (with the same grammar, but considering =s as a neutral resumptive pronoun : What is it, that we have come for *it* ==> Why have we come without performing a miracle for the children... (short remark : the strokes are for the plurial. It's not nA-n-Xrdw 3, because it would be : *pA* 3 Xrdw) [Hans van Haarst : > The last sentence is indeed a difficult one. First i thought of smi=sn as > a prospective sDm=f: " so that they could report ". But maybe smi=n is a > prospective relative form, rdi.w can be a perfective active participle and > iw.t=n a prospective sDm=f used circumstantially. The translation would > then be : > the miracles, " that we can report to their father, who caused us to come > ". The same verbform iw.t is used in L13. I have always difficulty in > identifying these relative forms, because almost never you will find smy=f > but mostly smi=f. I think your first idea is the good one, because biAt is feminine. If smi were a relative form, we would have smit(y)=n > > I wonder about the verb 'to come'. This verb has two roots : iy and iw. In > L12 iy is used and in L13 iw. Does iy mean ' go back ' and iw mean ' go > forth ' ? The possible translation would then be : > " What is the matter, that we have gone back from her, without performing > miracles for those children, that we can report to their father, who let us > go forth ? " iy and iw are more "come" than "go"; I would rather use "Sm" for "go forth", but the point is well taken. I can only say that in LATE EGYPTIAN, Wynan has proved that iw and iy are no more used freely (as in middle egyptian), and can be considered as two morphological variations of the same verb. For example, in late egyptian, the infinitive is always iyt, and the stative always iw. So in this stage of the language, the two make one verb and one verb only. I have the vague impression that iyt is more prone to complements like "because", or "in order to" than iwt, which would be more neutral --- the plain consideration of the movement itself. It could be amusing to look at the CT word index for this :-) regards, ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:28:03 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Hans van Haarst Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9, L8-11 At 22:08 27-11-97 +1100, you wrote: > Reply to: RE>>AEL Westcar P9, L8-11 > > maybe smi=n is a prospective relative form ... >If so, then shouldn't it modify the preceding noun (ie. "children")? Then the >meaning would be," the three children that we will report...". I find this a >bit difficult to grasp. I still like the continuation > "... for the 3 children and report to their father the cause of our >return(ing)." Dear Mike, You are wright it has to modify the preceding noun. That can not be biAyt, otherwise the form would have to be written smi.t=n. So the suffix pronoun sn in pAy=sn has to refer to the children. The translation is then : the children " to whose father who let us come we will have to report " Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 28 Nov 97 00:17:18 UT From: "mark vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Westcar P9 / L11-17 P9 / L11 aHa.n msi.n=sn xai.w xmt Then they fashioned three cows n.y nb anx.w wDA.w snb.w for their lord, Life, Prosperity Health P9 / L12 rdi.in=sn st m pA-it They placed them in the corn P9 / L13 aHa.n rdi.n=sn iw.t pt Then they caused the sky to come m Daw Hr Hwi.y.t into a storm with rain P9 / L14 aHa.n an.n=sn st r pA pr Then they returned (turned back) to the house P9 / L15 aHa.n Dd.n=sn Then they said Haw di=Tn pA it aA Would that you put the corn here P9 / L16 m a.t xtm.ti r iw.t=n Hr xnti.w mHw.t.y.w in a chamber that is locked, until we return from a matter in the north P9 / L17 aHa.n rdi.n=sn pA it m a.t xtm.ti Then they placed the corn in a chamber that was locked That's all for now Mark V ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 10:11:50 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9 / L11-17 Hi, Mark V., Good for you for taking a bigger chunk of text! > P9 / L11 > aHa.n msi.n=sn xai.w xmt > Then they fashioned three cows I think you got this right... you did mean "crowns", didn't you??? ;-P > n.y nb anx.w wDA.w snb.w > for their lord, Life, Prosperity Health In that case, the first word should be transliterated "n" rather than "n.y". I had thought of it as: "three crowns of the Lord, life, prosperity, and health". > P9 / L12 > rdi.in=sn st m pA-it > They placed them in the corn Good > P9 / L13 > aHa.n rdi.n=sn iw.t pt > Then they caused the sky to come yes > m Daw Hr Hwi.y.t > into a storm with rain Yes > P9 / L14 > aHa.n an.n=sn st r pA pr > Then they returned (turned back) to the house Yes, but go ahead and translate the st. "Then they returned themselves to the house" > P9 / L15 > aHa.n Dd.n=sn > Then they said yes > Haw di=Tn pA it aA > Would that you put the corn here Yes, or simply "please, could you put (keep) the barley here" > P9 / L16 > m a.t xtm.ti r iw.t=n Hr xnti.w mHw.t.y.w > in a chamber that is locked, until we return from a matter in the north You mean "xnj.t" "in a locked room until we return from singing/staying* (in) the north" *both meanings are possible. > P9 / L17 > aHa.n rdi.n=sn pA it m a.t xtm.ti > Then they placed the corn in a chamber that was locked Yes, very good, Mark! Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 07:59:04 -0700 From: Al & Barbara Berens To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Demotic Grammar Introduction Some time back people were looking for an introductory work on Demotic. The Oriental Institute Publications department offers two books that might be of interest: The Demotic Verbal system by J. Johnson, SAOC Volume 38 Thus Wrote 'Onchsheshonqy: An Introductory Grammar of Demotic by J. Johnson, SAOC Volume 45 For those looking for hieratic, sorry, nothing there other than A Late Period Hieratic Wisdom Text by R. Jasnow, SAOC Volume 52 Al Berens djoser@pacbell.net ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 21:48:58 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL iw/iy To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: iw/iy Hi Serge, thanks for your comments. I am still trying to digest all the responses to those few lines of text. Now, when you wrote: > I can only say that in LATE EGYPTIAN, Wynan has proved that iw and iy > are no more used freely (as in middle egyptian)... Do you mean Jean Winand (from Liege), or is Wynan another person? The article I have from Ling. Aegypt. is in French, so I missed the bit about Late Egyptian. I did read though that the two verbs are indistinguishable in meaning throughout egyptian history, but they certainly get used in a non-random fashion. She has a nice table of the occurrences. Do you have this article? Tell me if you want a copy. Regards, Mike D-S ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:01:42 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL iw/iy Hi, Serge, and Mike, Concering jw/jj "come" These verbs are very interesting aren't they? I have usually supposed that they must always have been the same verb, the root of which was jwj, and that depending on some nuance which to us now seems elusive, these three weak consonants modulated such that one or the other of them seemed more like a vocalic diphthong. Hypothetical example: *yawy could be felt to consist of: **yoy or of **yawi (OR *'o'i v/s *'awi'): In the first case the spelling in Egyptian should rightly be jj and in the second jw, but actually they might just be two realizations of the same word, and even the same pronunciation with emphasis on different aspects of its phonology. It all lies in the discernment between the hazy categories of "consonants" and "vowels" when you have this many weak consonants in a word. In Coptic we get two surviving forms: {ei} and {nEu}. {ei} is the infinitive and {nEu} is the stative (coming from m jw.w, because the preposition was so often used in conjunction with this stative). This is of course in harmony with what Serge had to say about Late Egyptian. By Late Egyptian it is clear that jw is for stative expressions and jj for the other ones, but it is still not clear why earlier stages of the language needed two different ways of writing this verb. Maybe it is something like the phonological perceptions I discussed above, but it does seem strange. N'est ce pas? Another odd feature of this verb is the way that it has a {t} in it in its prospective/subjunctive form. There is one other verb in Egyptian which shares this odd feature, and that is jnj. Indicative jwj=f jnj=f Subjunctive jwj.t=f jnj.t=f Circumstantial jwj=f jnj=f Nominal jwj=f jnj=f Now, I have spent some time thinking about these two verbs. The one thing that they both have in common is the direction of movement implied. "come" and "bring" both involve motion to some referential subject. Maybe they could be called "allative" verbs, to coin a term. I have wracked my brain trying to think of any other verb that might also fall into the same category, but unsuccessfully so. I would certainly be interested in anyone else's theories or thoughts as to why the {t} appears in these two verbs in the prospective. There could be some other reason having to do with some aspect of meaning with which I am not familiar. Since {t}s appear in relatives, sDm.t=f's, third weak infinitives, and other kinds of forms. maybe someone has a suggestion as to what might be taking place in these verbs. One point that cannot be overlooked is that these verbs consist mostly of semi-vocalic weak radicals, and the appearance of {t} might have been felt necessary in order to hold some accented vowel more effectively than {j}. Indeed, it has been suggested that the prospective sDm=f had an accented vowel on the final radical, based on the t-causative forms found in Coptic ({tanho}, etc.): *sDm *jwj (capital {A} indicates accented short /a/ rather than long /a:/) saDmAf 'awtAf (< **'aw'Af?) The only question that this leaves, is why did this not occur in all third weak verbs if that were the case? Why are jwj and jnj the only irregular ones? Is it because they are the only two verbs that both begin and end in {j} which could either be a glottal stop or /y/? I would be interested in hearing some thoughts of others on this subject. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:32:36 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9 / L11-17 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL Westcar P9 / L11-17 Good to see your translation Mark. I have a couple of questions: > L13 > aHa.n rdi.n=sn iw.t pt m Daw Hr Hwi.y.t > Then they caused the sky to come into a storm with rain a) What is the verb form of iw.t? Prospective? If so, would it then mean: "Then they caused that the sky become as ('m' of predication) a storm with rain" ??? b) Was the storm simply a dramatic entrance or was it an excuse for them not to carry the barley away with them on their journey (because it would get wet)? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:54:15 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar P9, lines 18-22 To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar P9, lines 18-22 L 18: aHa.n rdDd.t wab.n=s m wab n.y hrw mD-ifdw "Then Redjedjet cleansed herself by (means of) a purification of 14 days." Q: Is this describing the normal ritual by a woman after a birth? L 19-20: aHa.n Dd.n=s n wbA.y.t=s in-iw pA-pr s-spd.w "Then she said to her maidservant, "Is the house prepared?" Note: I take s-spd.w to be a stative form of the verb. L21-22: aHa.n Dd.n=s iw=f s-spd.w m bw-nb nfr wpw-Hr hn.w ni ini.tw "Then she said, "It is prepared beautifully everwhere except for the jars that were brought." Note: What is going on in the last part of the sentence? Is it something like ".. the jars of one's bringing"? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 17:08:37 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Hans van Haarst Subject: Re: AEL Westcar, p. 4 L12 At 03:27 27-11-97 -0500, you wrote: > >The transliteration of P4 L12 : > > iri.n=tw r=f m mi.t.y.t > >Note that the construction is not particularly "heavy" in Egyptian. > >James Hoch >james_hoch@campuslife.utoronto.ca Hello James, Thank you for your reaction. I was not very clear. What I meant was : is it not possible that the iri.n.tw is not the emphatic sDm.n=f form but the indicative (verbal) verbform, that you can sometimes encounter in the Pyramid texts ? Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:40:36 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar update To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar update Dear followers of Redjedjet, The commentary for page 9 has been brought up to date. My thanks to everyone who participated so vigorously last week. The dust has settled somewhat on lines 8-11 (but I still mull over with some unease....). Mark has covered quite a bit of ground so I can see we are going to polish of page 9 fairly quickly! Geoff has kindly supplied the transliteration of pages 10 and 11 and they have been added to the transliteration page at the pWestcar website. I am working on the 'clickable' vocab. for page 10 (the first few lines should be OK). For new members, go to the westcar web site, either via the AEL web site, or directly using the address: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/texts/ael/westcar/index.html In any case, there is more than enough material for another serious attack on Westcar. Can we 'take it out' before the year ends??? Have fun !, Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne ==============================================================================