From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:35:21 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Game 4 http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/games/index.html ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:38:29 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Mark Wilson Subject: Game 4 Hi, All, At the excellent suggestion of the lovely Leslie, I am taking a new tack for the next game. You will have to endure my real hiroglyphic handwriting for this one! ;-P This game involved identifying the names of the gods. I have put up 59 writings of names for Egyptian gods and goddesses. See if you can identify them. Give a transliteration, and then identify the name which is used in English. If you know th Greek equivalents, then include those too. Example: t3-wr.t Taweret Thoueris Have fun. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Leslie Bailey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Game 4 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:43:22 -0500 Here are my guesses. 1. sxmt Sakhmet 2. jmn Amun 3. skr Sokar 4. xnsw Khons 5. Ht-Hr Hathor 6. 7. 3st Isis 8. `nty Anty 9. 3st Isis 10. 11. ptH Ptah? 12. mwt Mut 13. nbt-Hyt Nephtys 14. DHwty Thoth 15. ptH OK Ptah 16. mnw Min 17. jmstj Imseti 18. Xnmw Khnum 19. t3-Tnn Tatjenen 20. sS3t Seshat 21. nfr-tm nefertem 22. r`-Hr-3xty Re-Harakhti 23. wsjr Osiris 24. Sw Shu 25. nxbt Nekhbet 26. gb Geb 27. w3Dt Edjo (Uto) 28. r`-Hr-3xty Re-Harakhti 29. Hr Horus 30. wsjr Osiris 31. stt Satis 32.a. 32.b. nbw Hathor 33. jtm Atum 34. 35. wp-w3wt Wepwawet 36. jn-Hrt Onuris 37. jnpw Anubis 38. Hr nxn Horus of Nekhen 39. sbk Sobek 40. 41. Hqt Heket 42. tfnt Tefnut 43. mHt The complete eye of Horus 44. nwt Nut 45. stX Seth 46. Hrw-sm3 Haramakhis? 47. 48. 49. nt Neith 50. 51. qbHwsnwf Kebehsenuf 52. Hpy Hepy 53. b3stt Bastet 54. H`py Hapy 55. spdw Sothis 56. t3-wrt Taweret 57. 58. 59. jnpw Anubis ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:39:07 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar p9, L1-2 To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar p9, L1-2 Line 1: aHa.n Dd.n=sn nDm ib=k ra-wsr a) Narrative past tense form of the type: 'aHa.n sDm.n=f' The 3rd person plural suffix pronoun (sn) is used. "Then they said..." b) 'nDm-ib' means joyful, so it is an adjective. The use of the 2nd person, masc. sing. suffix pronoun (k), 'you' does not fit with the 'nfr sw' (he is good) construction one would expect if it was a bare initial adjective. The context is a direct address by the gods to Ra-wsr, so I would opt for the verbal use of the adjective, possibly a prospective form. If it was a command (Be joyful!) then the suffix pronoun (k) would not be present. Imperatives take dependent pronouns, or suffix pronouns attached to prepositions. "... may you be joyful, Ra-wsr, ..." Line 2: m.k msi.w n=k Xrd xmt Given the lack of anyone doing the bearing (of the 3 children), the verb msi is in the passive form (msi.w). Good old Redjedet seems to have slipped on the scale of importance here... " See, three children are/have been born to you" Comments please! Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:58:32 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Game 4 Hi, Leslie, I can count on you to go for the gusto! > 1. sxmt Sakhmet Yes, Greek Sakhmis > 2. jmn Amun Yes, Greek Ammon > 3. skr Sokar Yes, Greek Sokharis > 4. xnsw Khons Yes > 5. Ht-Hr Hathor Yes, that is Hw.t-Hrw to be more precise with weak consonants. > 6. This is indeed a hard one. > 7. 3st Isis Yes, a hard one but you were able to find it, nonetheless. > 8. `nty Anty Yes, but these days people read the name as Nemty. > 9. 3st Isis Yes > 10. Aha, another tricky writing. You all probably know this god, but had never seen the abreviated writings of his name. > 11. ptH Ptah? Yes > 12. mwt Mut Yes > 13. nbt-Hyt Nephtys Yes, I am sure you meant to type nb.t-Hw.t though. > 14. DHwty Thoth Yes > 15. ptH OK Ptah Aaaaaaangh! Not this writing. Look again. > 16. mnw Min Yes > 17. jmstj Imseti Yes > 18. Xnmw Khnum Yes, Greek Khnoumis > 19. t3-Tnn Tatjenen Yes > 20. sS3t Seshat Yes, and her nickname? ....sfx.t-`b.w which means? > 21. nfr-tm nefertem Yes > 22. r`-Hr-3xty Re-Harakhti Yes > 23. wsjr Osiris Yes, probably more accurately 3sjrj, but you have produced the traditional transliterarion. There is still a little debate as to how the name was originally realized. Fecht goes so far as 3s-jr.t for instance. He could also be right. > 24. Sw Shu Yes, Greek Sos > 25. nxbt Nekhbet Yes > 26. gb Geb Yes > 27. w3Dt Edjo (Uto) Yes > 28. r`-Hr-3xty Re-Harakhti Very close, but no cigar! > 29. Hr Horus Yes > 30. wsjr Osiris Yes, 3sjrj > 31. stt Satis Yes > 32.a. Another tricky one, try again. > 32.b. nbw Hathor Aaaaaangh! Try again. (I see I really had sixty of these fellas! Dern, that numbering.) > 33. jtm Atum Yes > 34. Another difficult one, try again. > 35. wp-w3wt Wepwawet Yes, Greek Ophois > 36. jn-Hrt Onuris Yes > 37. jnpw Anubis Yes > 38. Hr nxn Horus of Nekhen Well, that is not who I had intended, but I think that techincally the name could be written this way too. Which other god can be written with this sign? > 39. sbk Sobek Yes, Greek Soukhos > 40. Another hard one, try sounding it out. > 41. Hqt Heket Yes > 42. tfnt Tefnut Yes, Greek Tphenis > 43. mHt The complete eye of Horus Yes, very good. The full transliteration is mH.w.t, and we can call her Mehut in English. > 44. nwt Nut Yes > 45. stX Seth Yes > 46. Hrw-sm3 Haramakhis? Very, close, but no cigar. Try again. > 47. > 48. A couple of hard ones. Try again. > 49. nt Neith Yes > 50. Yes, a difficult one, but keep trying. > 51. qbHwsnwf Kebehsenuf Yes > 52. Hpy Hepy Yes > 53. b3stt Bastet Yes > 54. H`py Hapy Yes > 55. spdw Sothis Yes, but not "Sothis", she is spd.t which is different. > 56. t3-wrt Taweret Yes, Greek Thoueris > 57. > 58. Some difficult ones. > 59. jnpw Anubis Yes, very good Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:42:25 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Game 4; #6, #10 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL Game 4; #6, #10 I'll concentrate on the ones that are still outstanding from Leslie's response. Here are the first two, items 6 and 10. 6. Well the biliteral sign denotes 'pH'. The standard it sits upon (R12) is common for presenting the names of gods, and the god determinative just sits there, not giving much away. 'pH' can be used in words for; a) the verb, 'reach, attack' b) pHty, 'strength' c) pHwy, 'hind-quarters, end' Will Geoff give us a clue for this one?? 10. The signs remind me of the god, dwa-mwt=f, one of the four sons of Horus. The usual writing is with the vulture, G14. I assume this is the abbreviation. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:43:46 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Game 4; #6 On 19 Nov 97 at 8:42, Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > 6. Well the biliteral sign denotes 'pH'. The standard it sits upon (R12) is > common for presenting the names of gods, and the god determinative just sits > there, not giving much away. 'pH' can be used in words for; > a) the verb, 'reach, attack' > b) pHty, 'strength' > c) pHwy, 'hind-quarters, end' > Will Geoff give us a clue for this one?? Is it by any chance the God of the 10th hour of the day? -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:21:25 +1100 (EST) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Linda Evans Subject: AEL Game 4 I've been chewing on this since yesterday. Is no. 6 Heka, god of creative power? Linda ____________________ Linda Evans Animal Behaviour Lab Department of Psychology Macquarie University Sydney NSW 2109 Australia ____________________ ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:33:50 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar p9, L1-2 > REGARDING Westcar p9, L1-2 > > Line 1: aHa.n Dd.n=sn nDm ib=k ra-wsr > a) Narrative past tense form of the type: 'aHa.n sDm.n=f' > The 3rd person plural suffix pronoun (sn) is used. > "Then they said..." > "... may you be joyful, Ra-wsr, ..." jb is the subject and nDm is the adjective. It is the nfr sw construction. Literally it says: "your heart is sweet", but it means "may you be happy". > Line 2: m.k msi.w n=k Xrd xmt > Given the lack of anyone doing the bearing (of the 3 children), the verb msi > is in the passive form (msi.w). Good old Redjedet seems to have slipped on the > scale of importance here... > " See, three children are/have been born to you" Yes. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: Julie-Ann Bradwyn To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Game 4 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:41:42 +1100 I can't remember off hand, but isn't it one of the four gods that we did last session at Westcar. CU J-A. ---------- From: Linda Evans[SMTP:levans@frogmouth.bhs.mq.edu.au] Sent: Wednesday, 19 November 1997 21:21 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Game 4 I've been chewing on this since yesterday. Is no. 6 Heka, god of creative power? Linda ____________________ Linda Evans Animal Behaviour Lab Department of Psychology Macquarie University Sydney NSW 2109 Australia ____________________ ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:03:42 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 4; #6, #10 Hi, Mike, > 6. Well the biliteral sign denotes 'pH'. The standard it sits upon (R12) is > common for presenting the names of gods, and the god determinative just sits > there, not giving much away. 'pH' can be used in words for; > a) the verb, 'reach, attack' > b) pHty, 'strength' > c) pHwy, 'hind-quarters, end' > Will Geoff give us a clue for this one?? Well, I just checked the Gardiner sign list just to make sure he had the value. He does not. This is a New Kingdom and later writing for the God Hk3 Hike, the god of magic. See Faulkner, page 179, 4th entry down. He references an article in JEA 24. > 10. The signs remind me of the god, dwa-mwt=f, one of the four sons of Horus. > The usual writing is with the vulture, G14. I assume this is the abbreviation. Yes, you are right. The word for mother comes down in Coptic as {maau} indicating that it had a glottal stop in it like *mj.t, and in fact many later writings of mw.t have the arm with rounded loaf in hand instead of the buzzard sign. This sign represented the sound /mj/, hence the writing is dw3-mj.t=f actually, at least when written this way. Now, don't anyone be upset here. I have to make the games challenging enough for the more avanced people also to learn something. If I put only the phonetically spelled names, then it would be utterly unchallenging for some of you. OK, this leaves us with only 15, 28, 32a, 32b, 34, 38, 40, 46, 47, 48, 50, 57, and 58 to fill in. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:54:38 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 4; #6 Hi, Mark, > > 6. Well the biliteral sign denotes 'pH'. The standard it sits upon (R12) is > > common for presenting the names of gods, and the god determinative just sits > > there, not giving much away. 'pH' can be used in words for; > > a) the verb, 'reach, attack' > > b) pHty, 'strength' > > c) pHwy, 'hind-quarters, end' > > Will Geoff give us a clue for this one?? > > Is it by any chance the God of the 10th hour of the day? Yes, apparently Hike was assigned as the god of this hour as well as his cosmic functions in the solar barque, and the earlier stages of creation. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:23:55 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar p9, L1-2 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL Westcar p9, L1-2 Geoff, could I pursue your comment regarding line 1. aHa.n Dd.n=sn nDm ib=k ra-wsr (Geoff's) >jb is the subject and nDm is the adjective. It is the nfr sw >construction. Literally it says: "your heart is sweet", but it means >"may you be happy". Could you describe to me why it is a nominal construction (of the 'nfr sw' type) rather than a prospective form of the 'adjective-verb'? If it was a 'nfr sw' construction, then it would translate literally as you have written, ie. stating one thing on another ("your heart is sweet"). You give a meaning that is equivalent to a prospective verb form, so why could it not be a prospective verb form, "May your heart be sweet...". If the statement was just:' nDm ra-wsr', then surely it couldn't be a 'nfr sw' (nominal syntax) form??? It would either be a prospective, or (with a .w) a stative, or perhaps an imperative (?). Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:05:44 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 4 Hi, Linda! > I've been chewing on this since yesterday. > > Is no. 6 Heka, god of creative power? By George, you got it!!!!! Great for you. I just divulged it a second ago before I got your message. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:59:00 +0000 From: atlixco To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Late Egyptian I wonder if anyone can enlighten me on late egyptian and it's difference to middle egyptian. I hear that middle Egyptian is relatively the easiest to study but that late egyptian suddenly came up with much more complexity in the use of hieroglyphs. (I am still awaiting the dictionary & grammar I've ordered so I'm still asking questions from a very naive point of view). I would like to broach a taboo subject here & that is the parameters of discussion of this mailing list. I noticed that UFO's & modern occult interpretations of the text are prohibited. Actually the statement on ufo's was quite unexpected to me, & led me to wonder what modern occult interpretations means. I am aware of Schwaller de Lubicz's theories to some small extent & have looked at Antony West's book serpent in the sky. Personally I find West's castigation of egyptologists quite unnecessary & unhelpful, & some of the ideas in his book shallow, however it seems to me that with egyptian being involved with such works as the book of the dead, even dealing with discussions on how to translate curious constructions in these works could be construed as straying into modern occult interpretations. As I have found in previous experience the moderator might be referring to previous experience on this list or some other to some outlandish theory more properly suited to a modern shlock horror film on egypt in the vein of the mummy (going by common manifestations of "punk" religion etc. on the web. However what to me seems valid is such things as pythagorean number symbolism in relationship to egyptian language. Indeed it seems to me that many egyptian hieroglyphs are not at all immediately intuitive when referring to things outside of the animal & vegetable. The hieroglyph for sky is one such glyph, where there may be some visual punning going on in terms of evocative references that were important to the egyptians, another hieroglyph is the djed pillar. It seems that investigation of these by intuitive reference to various forms of organising perception might be construed as occultist, a case in point would be reference to the medieval theories of the four elements. I seem to come across various laments to the poor quality of lexicography in egypt as the achilles heel of egyptology. Other reading about the discovery of hieroglyphs brought to my attention Athanasius Kircher who apparently went overboard on finding all sorts of things in hieroglyphs that weren't there. I wonder if modern egyptology has not overcompensated by too much denying analogy, metaphor & allegory being present in hieroglyphs. Basically I would like to know where in relation to this list the line is drawn. It is my understanding that language is very deep, having made some studies into english lexicography. The fact is that the language we use that we call English is actually mainly a lowest common denominator english. The Language to a certain extent in itself determines what can be in the contents of mind. It is amazing what studies in Sumerian & Hebrew have discovered as contents of the language in itself. a very interesting website in this regard is www.meru.org for some modern research into the relationship of hebrew to modern physics. Hebrew seems to be a language that may equally well have influences in it of egyptian thought as well as sumerian through babylon. I would be interested in discovering what are the parameters of modern Hieroglyphic Lexicography, could anyone give me some pointers on this? (How does it proceed?) While I'm writing please could someone guide me to the best work on the description of the egyptian neters & mythology? It seems that there are dozens of books on the subject but I know that many of them are superficial works. thanks yours atlixco ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:10:02 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Hans van Haarst Subject: AEL westcar P9, L3 Hello to everybody, I am a newbie in this Egyptian language group, so let me introduce meself a little. For several years I am learning Old and Middle Egyptian more or less on my own. What a joy it was to discover a discussion group with the same interests. Old Egyptian I learned essentially from Edel's grammar and Middle Egyptian from several (mostly Dutch) grammars. Now I have just started learning Late Egyptian from F. Junge's new grammar. Is there somebody else, who is using this grammar by Junge and if so does he or she know where to get the answers to the exercises ? Furthermore I would very much like to participate in the Westcar discussion. So I would like to start with P9, L3. aHa.n Dd.n=f n=sn Hnw.w.t=i ptr iri.ti=i n=Tn Then he spoke to them: Myladies, what can/could I do for you ? I have transliterated the verbform of iri as iri.ti=i, because I think that it is a prospective relative form. He is very glad what they did for him, so he wants to thank them. I noticed that on the transliteration page the verbform is iri.t=i, which must be an infinitive or a verbal noun, which literally translates into What is my doing for you ? This does not give the personal touch of the context. I believe that Gunn discovered this prospective form, but Gardiner does not mention it and most other grammars do not agree on this subject. Could anybody comment on this ? Thanks, Hans van Haarst With kind greetings Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:42:01 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar p9, L1-2 Hi, Mike, > Could you describe to me why it is a nominal construction (of the 'nfr sw' > type) rather than a prospective form of the 'adjective-verb'? If it was a 'nfr > sw' construction, then it would translate literally as you have written, ie. > stating one thing on another ("your heart is sweet"). You give a meaning that > is equivalent to a prospective verb form, so why could it not be a prospective > verb form, "May your heart be sweet...". > > If the statement was just:' nDm ra-wsr', then surely it couldn't be a 'nfr > sw' (nominal syntax) form??? It would either be a prospective, or (with a .w) > a stative, or perhaps an imperative (?). No, Mike, I can't describe it. I could just be wrong. I have a tendency to think of the adjectives as verbs themselves, but I am often cautioned by instructors that this can be a mistake. Really, I should read Gardiner's section on adjective verbs over to see if this is possible, but since it was noun subject, I figured the best guess was nfr sw. I do not however know this for sure. Sorry. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:07:53 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Late Egyptian Hi, Atlixco, I can address parts of your message, but not other sections. > I wonder if anyone can enlighten me on late egyptian and it's difference > to middle egyptian. I hear that middle Egyptian is relatively the > easiest to study but that late egyptian suddenly came up with much more > complexity in the use of hieroglyphs. (I am still awaiting the > dictionary & grammar I've ordered so I'm still asking questions from a > very naive point of view). Late Egyptian is very analytic and its verbal system is more clear to us than the Old and Middle Egyptian verbal systems which were more synthetic. Example: Middle Egyptian sDm=f could mean he shall hear when he hears he is hearing and various other complicated things. Late Egyptian developed less ambiguous ways of expressing some of these: he shall hear is jw=f r sDm when he hears is jw=f Hr sDm etc. The language had moved from verb, subject, object to subject verb object, and the grammar was greatly simplified in the process. However, to this picture must be added the fact that Late Egyptian was often written with many many superfluous characters which did not add to meaning but which had to do with the evolution of the scribal profession as well as various phonological changes which were taking place. So, for example, while Middle Egyptian might write: Dd=f or ntf or j3m.t, etc. Late Egyptian might write: Ddtw=f or mntwf or jm3myt, etc. but both would be writing the same things [Dd=f] or [ntf] or [jm3.t], etc. Meanwhile, where in Middle Egyptian one determinative usually sufficed, in Late Egyptian many words have multiple determinatives, some of which are entirely superfluous. Also, there were certain writing short cuts which became general knowledge in Late Egyptian, so some writings seem strange and ambiguous unless you are instructed to expect them. So, take the road that bothers you less. Either go for greater purity of writing and do Middle Egyptian, or more grammatical information and do Late Egyptian. > I seem to come across various laments to the poor quality of > lexicography in egypt as the achilles heel of egyptology. Other reading > about the discovery of hieroglyphs brought to my attention Athanasius > Kircher who apparently went overboard on finding all sorts of things in > hieroglyphs that weren't there. I wonder if modern egyptology has not > overcompensated by too much denying analogy, metaphor & allegory being > present in hieroglyphs. Basically I would like to know where in relation > to this list the line is drawn. There are some cases where writings did draw upon analogy and metaphor, but mostly this is the realm of Ptolemaic cryptography, which is what Horapollo was discribing when he wrote on Egyptian hieroglyphs, and not the writing of the majority of the hieroglyphic language. I believe that we have already discovered most of these kinds of writings, and you will find that when something of that nature occurs, the scholar puts many comments and footnotes in that regard. > While I'm writing please could someone guide me to the best work on > the description of the egyptian neters & mythology? It seems that there > are dozens of books on the subject but I know that many of them are > superficial works. Unfortunately no one has attemped to replace Budge's work in this regard. It is sorely needed, because, while Budge's books are thorough they are often misleading and mistaken. One recent book which has some value was written by Dimitri Meeks and his wife _Daily Life of the Egyptian Gods_. It might be one place to begin. Some day, I hope to rectify this situation myself, if I can ever get to that stage. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:11:04 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar vocab, P9 To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar vocab, P9 The 'clickable' vocabulary for page 9 of the Westcar papyrus is now complete. Let me know if you have any problems with it. For new members, go to the westcar web site, via the AEL web site, or directly using the address: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/texts/ael/westcar/index.html Follow the links to the vocabulary, then page 9, and you should be able to identify the meaning of all the words. Note: for verbs, I only give the verbal root. You have to work out the verb form! I find the vocab pages very useful myself for going over parts of the text. Good luck! Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:47:54 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL westcar P9, L3 Hi, Hans, Welcome to posting on AEL. We are always glad to have more people with background. > aHa.n Dd.n=f n=sn Hnw.w.t=i ptr iri.ti=i n=Tn > > Then he spoke to them: Myladies, what can/could I do for you ? > > I have transliterated the verbform of iri as iri.ti=i, because I think that > it is a prospective relative form. He is very glad what they did for him, > so he wants to thank them. I noticed that on the transliteration page the > verbform is iri.t=i, which must be an infinitive or a verbal noun, which > literally translates into > What is my doing for you ? This does not give the personal touch of the > context. > I believe that Gunn discovered this prospective form, but Gardiner does not > mention it and most other grammars do not agree on this subject. > Could anybody comment on this ? I think your translation idea is a very nice one. I do not know much about the option of which you speak. The .t did trouble me a bit however, and I am pleased to see your interesting solution to its problem. Perhaps you could give us a summary of the forms of which you are speaking. In terms of relative sDm=f's I only really know about .w and .t endings, and I would be curious to learn of more nuances if you have some data to share. Yours, Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:09:04 +0000 From: atlixco To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Late Egyptian Thank you graham for a very clear & concise synopsis on the subject. yours atlixco ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:38:06 +1100 (EST) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Linda Evans Subject: AEL Game 4, #15 Dear Geoff, This is a complete stab in the dark - Is No. 15 Taye(t), goddess of weaving???? Linda ____________________ Linda Evans Animal Behaviour Lab Department of Psychology Macquarie University Sydney NSW 2109 Australia fax: +61 2 9850-9233 voice: +61 2 9850-9231 ____________________ ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:16:07 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL westcar P9, L3 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL westcar P9, L3 Well for a 'newbie' Hans, you have come up with a marvellous idea for the syntax of line 3! > Hnw.w.t=i ptr iri.ti=i n=Tn > ... I think that 'iri.ti' is a prospective relative form. That description seems to fit the syntax well. This type of question conforms to nominal syntax, eg. 'ptr sw', who is he? In this case the second part is a nominal phrase, 'that I can/may do...'. The .t or .ti ending is normal for a feminine antecedent. Its presence here I take to be due to the neuter, independent use of the adjective. The prospective relative form seems to be alive and well, and is given i section 160 of Hoch, chpt 19, 2 of Englund, section 4.6.3.4 of Loprieno. Gosh, when you get a sentence like this ('What can I do for you?) it really brings home to you that people have changed very little! Glad to have you on board Hans! Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:06:55 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Game 4; #28 & 32 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL Game 4; #28 & 32 If Linda has cleared up #15, then we move on: #28. Surely this has to be Ra. The second sign is just a god determinative. #32a. Now, is this Osiris with the eye sign swapped for the little circle. I note in Gardiner that something like N33 (grain of sand) would occasionally replace 'dangerous' signs in religious documents. #32b. Is this the goddess Ssmtt (Shesmetet), the lioness goddess, the personification of divine power. OK, I'll stop here. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:31:33 -0500 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9, top To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Two things well done. Congratulations Mike & Hans! 1. nDm ib.k Mike's interpretation of nDm as the prospective "adjective verb" is right on. The subject is ib.k, but Mike's translation as "May you be joyful" is fine. Closer technically is: "may your heart be joyful..." The "adjective verb" usage is nothing terribly special--it is just taking an adjectival root and using it as a verb. The use is restricted to certain forms (i.e. NOT used in statements of fact); it occurs especially as prospective forms (e.g. in wishes, etc.), imperatives (clearly shown by their negations), and the stative. 2. ptr iri.ti.i n.Tn... Hans has identified the form very nicely. Here not only context indicates that a modal force "can/could," "might" (which is suitable to a prospective form) is required, but also the writing is typical of the feminine prospective relative form (written with the "ti" group instead of simple "t", which does, however, also occur). The relative form (like its "unmarried" [i.e. unconjugated] cousin, the particple) is adjectival. Egyptian adjectives function fully as nouns, as we have here: literally "What is that which I might do for you?" Gunn, indeed, did identify this form and it has been widely accepted. In his 2nd and subsequent editions, Gardiner (EG #387.2) did not reject this form outright, but he did not distinguish it as separate from the "perfective relative form". But he did not hesitate to translate as prospective those cases that clearly warranted such a translation. Best wishes--and keep reading! James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:38:52 +0100 From: Gabi Barnickel To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 4 Graham wrote: > OK, this leaves us with only 15, 28, 32a, 32b, 34, 38, 40, 46, 47, 48, 50, > 57, and 58 to fill in. I try to fill in most of these, but I still have no solution for 32a and 50. 15: tAi.t Tait 28: ra Re 32b: stt Satet Satis 34: irpi Irpi (epitheta of a god - Hannig) 38: spdw Sopdu 40: km-At=f Kematef 47: nt Neith 48: iwn-mwt=f Iunmutef 57: sAH Orion 58: Hs.t Hesat 32a: I think it must be a god with Htm in the name. Gabi ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:49:06 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar p9, L.4 To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar p9, L.4 Moving along. The next sentence is pretty complicated so expect a lot of holes in my translation. HAw di=Tn pA-it n pAy=Tn Xr.y-qni iTi=Tn n=Tn sw r zwn.t tnm.w "Please will you give this barley to your porter, so you may take it with you instead of beer (lit. as the price of beer). I take 'di' and iTi to be a prospective verb forms. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:51:51 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 4, #15 Hi, Linda, > This is a complete stab in the dark - Is No. 15 Taye(t), goddess of weaving???? Yes, it is. You are pretty good at this, Linda! Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:23:56 GMT From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL westcar P9, L3 Graham 'ecrit : > Hi, Hans, > > Welcome to posting on AEL. We are always glad to have more people with > background. > > > aHa.n Dd.n=f n=sn Hnw.w.t=i ptr iri.ti=i n=Tn > > > > Then he spoke to them: Myladies, what can/could I do for you ? > > > > I have transliterated the verbform of iri as iri.ti=i, because I think that > > it is a prospective relative form. He is very glad what they did for him, [...] > > I believe that Gunn discovered this prospective form, but Gardiner does not > > mention it and most other grammars do not agree on this subject. > > Could anybody comment on this ? I think your idea is right. As far as I know, the prospective relative form is quite accepted now. Gardiner put it in one of the editions of his grammars, but decided not to keep it in the third edition. However, it is exposed in other grammars, like Lefebvre's. The form is not likely to be a imperfective relative for, which should be written ir:r:t=i (with one more "r"). Another prospective relative form appear in the text : nA Ddy=k pty sy tA rwDDdt What you are going to tell is "who is she, this Roudjidjit ?" The known forms for the prospective relative form are : MASC: 2lit. Ddy=f 3inf. mry=f FEM. 2lit Ddti=f 3lit anxti=f 2gem mAti=f 3inf mrti=f rdi diti=f Of course, the final 'i' can fall. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:24:45 GMT From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar p9, L1-2 Graham 'ecrit : > Hi, Mike, > > > Could you describe to me why it is a nominal construction (of the 'nfr sw' > > type) rather than a prospective form of the 'adjective-verb'? If it was a 'nfr > > sw' construction, then it would translate literally as you have written, ie. > > stating one thing on another ("your heart is sweet"). You give a meaning that > > is equivalent to a prospective verb form, so why could it not be a prospective > > verb form, "May your heart be sweet...". > > I agree with your on this point ; the idea is that Wsr-ra is not currently happy, but well be happy when he has heard the good news. One could translate : Rejoice, Wsr-ra ! lo, three children have been delivered for you. A note : adjective verbs mean 'become - THE ADJECTIVE' ; for example, nfr, as a verb, means become good, not 'be good'. So, with a prospective, the litteral translation is : "may your mood become sweet, ra-wsr" BTW : it seems to me that 'nfr sw' is mostly used for more or less permanent or intrinsic qualities, as nfr sw is a nominal construction. We could buid a table like that : Permanent non-permanent substantive ink sS iw=i m sS I am a scribe I am acting as a scribe adjective nfr sw iw=f nfr=w he is perfect he is now perfect/ he has become perfect (intrinsically) It is however my impression that things are more clear-cut for substantive than for adjectives. > > If the statement was just:' nDm ra-wsr', then surely it couldn't be a 'nfr > > sw' (nominal syntax) form??? It would either be a prospective, or (with a .w) > > a stative, or perhaps an imperative (?). I don't agree on this point. nDm ra-wsr could perfectly and grammatically be a 'nfr sw' adjectival sentence. But in fact, nDm ra-wsr would mean 'ra-wsr is sweet'. To say that ra-wsr is happy, I would write : ra-wsr, nDm ib=f => he's a merry good fellow, generally happy or : ra-wsr ib=f nDm=w => he is happy now. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:03:42 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 4 Hi, Gabi, > 15: tAi.t Tait yes > 28: ra Re yes > 32b: stt Satet Satis yes, but also Szmt.t Shezmetet (Smithis) which is what I really had in mind. > 34: irpi Irpi (epitheta of a god - Hannig) No, this is the name Shezmu, the executioner of Osiris. > 38: spdw Sopdu Yes > 40: km-At=f Kematef Yes, also known by the Greek name Kneph > 47: nt Neith Yes > 48: iwn-mwt=f Iunmutef yes > 57: sAH Orion yes > 58: Hs.t Hesat yes > 32a: I think it must be a god with Htm in the name. Actually, it is a writing for Osiris. Good work! Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:45:19 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 4; #28 & 32 Hi, Mike, > #28. Surely this has to be Ra. The second sign is just a god determinative. Yes > #32a. Now, is this Osiris with the eye sign swapped for the little circle. I > note in Gardiner that something like N33 (grain of sand) would occasionally > replace 'dangerous' signs in religious documents. Yes! > #32b. Is this the goddess Ssmtt (Shesmetet), the lioness goddess, the > personification of divine power. Yes, Mike, great job! Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:58:43 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: blochprint@zelacom.com (Julie Purple) Subject: AEL New Person gets feet wet... Hi, folks I am newly subscribed to this list, and just want to introduce myself briefly. My name is Julie Bloch, I live in Sullivan County, New York, and am very much a beginner in the study of hieroglyphs. I have no background in Near Eastern languages, but did study a couple of years of Japanese and three of Chinese, because the writing is so beautiful, and before that, 5 years of Spanish. I am taking a correspondence course ("Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs") and am up to what is more or less the equivalent of Lesson 4 in Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar. I got connected with this list partly for information, and partly so I won't feel isolated in my studies, even though I probably will mostly read what you write for quite a while. I have yet to become accustomed to the list's system of transliteration, for starts! My background is in fine arts; I got a bachelor's degree in 1974, with a major in painting and a minor in drawing, and have for the last decade or so specialized in printmaking. (I make small relief prints and stamps.) I have also been a professional calligrapher, and in fact the beauty of the hieroglyphs is what drew me to them in the first place. They touched my heart, and I had to be closer to them. So, I want to learn to read and write but also to write beautifully. Does anybody have any recommendations for models to study for beauty of form? I have the Fischer book already. Okay, enough already. Now it's time for me to lurk. Thank you all, for providing this space. Julie Julie Bloch blochprint@zelacom.com * * * (@v@) * * * ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:26:47 +1100 (EST) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Linda Evans Subject: AEL Game 4 #50 Dear Geoff, I'm going for three out of three here - I think #50 is Bastet, the cat godess!!! Linda ____________________ Linda Evans Animal Behaviour Lab Department of Psychology Macquarie University Sydney NSW 2109 Australia fax: +61 2 9850-9233 voice: +61 2 9850-9231 ____________________ ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:14:19 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL New Person gets feet wet... Hi, Julie, > So, I want to learn to read and write but also to write beautifully. > Does > anybody have any recommendations for models to study for beauty of form? > I have the Fischer book already. > Okay, enough already. Now it's time for me to lurk. > Thank you all, for providing this space. > Julie Of course, there are many different kinds of Egyptian writing. If you love calligraphy, then I would suggest that you have a look at hieratic texts. Papyrus Harris in particular has a beautiful calligraphic hand. More immediately available, however, will be the Papyrus of Ani which has a hieroglyphic book hand which is quite nice. As far as the forms of carved hieroglyphs, the prboblem is finding a publication of a single monument where you can study a particular style of carving. Most books have samplings of photos from many different places which are of different periods and styles. Gardiner's font was designed after the hieroglyphs of the early Eighteenth Dynasty (mostly Hatshepsut and Thutmosis III). I am more interested in the Old Kingdom forms of hieroglyphs generally. The only way one can really study these, however, is to check out a publication of an Old Kingdom tomb from a library and pour over it. Many libraries, however, only have the general art books on ancient Egypt, so it is only people who go to large universities who are likely to have access to such books. Be well. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:17:29 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar p9, L.4 Hi, Mike, > HAw di=Tn pA-it n pAy=Tn Xr.y-qni > iTi=Tn n=Tn sw r zwn.t tnm.w > > "Please will you give this barley to your porter, so you may take it with you > instead of beer (lit. as the price of beer). > > I take 'di' and iTi to be a prospective verb forms. Yes, this seems right. There is a chance too that zwn.t might refer to the process of making beer. It, of course, must be an infinitive, if that is the case, since it comes after a preposition r. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:03:08 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 4 #50 Hi, Linda, > I'm going for three out of three here - I think #50 is Bastet, the cat > godess!!! That's right! Now, Mr. Grace says, "you've all doen very well!" as he shuffles out the door. I am about to leave for a holiday trip, but traveling will only occupy the weekend, and actually, as soon as I get to my destination I will still be in contact by telnetting, but I will be away from my books for the coming week. Fortunately, I don't imagine this matters terribly much. I have already sent a new game to Mark Wilson, so that we will have that to play with. I also hope that people will keep on working on Westcar, maybe take some bigger chunks at a time. We have so many interesting texts just waiting for us to work on. So, everyone be well and I will be communicating with you soon. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:24:32 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Hans van Haarst Subject: AEL Prospective relative forms and Westcar P9 L5 Hi everybody, I want to make a few comments on these forms. The difficulty with these forms is I think, that they are often written defectively so you can not distinguish them from infinitives, verbal nouns etc. I have found a few examples with complete writing of the morfeme ti. The first one is an excercise from the grammar by H. Brunner: ptr iri.ti=n "What should we do ?" Here the ti is spelled with the Gardiner sign U33. I don't know the context of this example, but it is probably the same as our L4 of P9. (Also in this grammar the excercises are given without solutions, I often wondered why, maybe otherwise students get lazy :) ) The next example is from Urk IV 162, 8 : mr.ti kA=f pw iri.ti "It means that whatever his ka might wish will be done" Also written with the U33 sign. Now 3 examples with defective writing First one example from the shipwrecked sailor (Sh. S. 46) ....r rx.t di.ti=i m r=i... "to discover something that I could put into my mouth" The other two examples are from the pyramid texts. Several years ago I read most of the spells of the pyramid of Unas. They are beautifully covered in the book by Piankoff : The pyramid of Unas. The Egyptian language developed from a synthetic to a more analytic form. So I thought that I could find such a synthetic form as the prospective relative form in the Pyramid texts. But I was rather disappointed in that aspect, because I never came across a complete writing with the U33 sign. But of course I did not read all the texts. Pyr 496a : i.wn iwt iw(y)=s aA.wy Ax.t "She who excludes the one whom she wants to exclude opens the doors of heaven." Here iw=s is written without y Pyr 498a : (the winds) mdw ... Hna qsn.ti=sn Hna sk(y)=sn " ... who battle with those who will be in pain and with those whom they want to destroy" (The winds are killing shipwrecked sailors.) qsn.ti=sn is a sDm.ty.fy participle and is written with the U33 sign. sk=sn is the prospective relative form. In my opinion the Pyramid texts can be beautiful and poetic apart from dark and incomprehensible. I am sorry about my lenghty story, but part of that is because I want to promote the Pyramid Texts. For some reason they are not very well liked. Well now back to Westcar. L5 : iwh.in sw Xnmw m pA it "Then Khnum loaded himself with the barley" Best wishes Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:28:29 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar P9, L6-7 To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar P9, L6-7 Dear Hans, >L6 : iwh.in sw Xnmw m pA it >"Then Khnum loaded himself with the barley" Now let me understand the situation, Khnum is impersonating a porter (?), so he is the one who picks up the barley. So 'sw' refers to himself rather than to someone/something else. How would you normally provide barley, in sacks or in jars? Do they say how much barley? We translated 'it' as barley, but would the final stroke determinative really mean 'one measure of barley'? If so, how much would this be? Presumably easy for one person to carry? OK, next line: Line 7: wDA pw iri.n=sn r-bw ii.n=sn im I love this one: 'Then they proceeded to the place they had come from." Or, "Then they left for the place from which they had come." Notes: a) this begins with a nominal construction (infin-pw-relative form) like line 28 of the previous page (p8). b) the noun 'bw' (place) is modified by the following adjectival form of the verb 'ii', ie. a relative form (?) "they had come" c) im (from). Sorry, can someone explain the function of this again for me? Is it an adverb, modifying the verbal adjective? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:55:14 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: blochprint@zelacom.com (Julie Purple) Subject: Re: AEL New Person gets feet wet... Hi, Geoff Thanks for your input on calligraphic forms. I sure know what you mean about finding a nice form here, another there... but I have nowhere near the knowledge you do, and thought it was that I just didn't know where to look. I'll go through some of my art books and see if I can find an example of Old Kingdom hieroglyphs. I never know what will have formed in the pages while I wasn't looking...:-) Would you happen to know of a book with a lot of good examples? They don't all have to be from the same monument... I have the lamentable (?) tendency to pick and choose among forms of a given hand (or chisel) and make a personal synthesis that I like... so a variety of samples would be great. As for hieratic, well, I am getting the idea that it will be necessary for me to become conversant with the forms eventually, but just now I am pretty much a rank ... or at least lacking a perfume- cone -- beginner. I am the delighted owner of a copy of the papyrus of Ani, given to me by a friend whose first love (possibly second, if you consider his wife) is Sanskrit. I guess it's one of those "community of odd-languages" things...:-) The forms are lovely, it's true, and seeing the flow of movement in the shapes gives me a little insight on forming the hieroglyphs better... but one of the things I like so much about the hieroglyphs is that they are little bitty pictures! A lot of that is lost in the hieratic. They become more writing than drawing. Thanks for your input! I like this list! Julie Julie Bloch blochprint@zelacom.com * * * (@v@) * * * ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Cc: sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu From: CatGuy@lamg.com Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:55:29 -0800 Subject: Re: AEL New Person gets feet wet... In message ID on 11/21/97, Ancient Egyptian Language List wrote: AELL> Most books AELL> have samplings of photos from many different places which are of AELL> different periods and styles. Gardiner's font was designed AELL> after the hieroglyphs of the early Eighteenth Dynasty (mostly AELL> Hatshepsut and Thutmosis III). I am more interested in the Old AELL> Kingdom forms of hieroglyphs generally. The only way one can AELL> really study these, however, is to check out a publication of an AELL> Old Kingdom tomb from a library and pour over it. Many AELL> libraries, however, only have the general art books on ancient AELL> Egypt, so it is only people who go to large universities who are AELL> likely to have access to such books. One of the promises of the World Wide Web was that it would make the collections of all the world's libraries and museums available electronically to the entire population of the world. Although in a few cases very large collections have been put on line (such as the effort at Duke), in most cases we see the same images and documents that have appeared in books, being lucky if we even get a text list of the contents of the collection. Putting entire collections on line has five basic problems: (1) Any politics or legal hassles that get in the way. (2) The enormous effort of scanning images or inputting text (even with OCR, the text has to be double-checked and corrected by hand). (3) Storage capacity for that much material (even using compressions such as GIF or JPEG). (4) The ability to handle high volumes of traffic (large numbers of simultaneous attempts to access the information). (5) Organizing the material so that specific items can be found quickly and easily. This is STILL the biggest unsolved problem in computing. We have very sophisiticated means for organizing amounts of data (under 30,000 items), but humanity still hasn't come up with a general purpose solution for large volumes (although we have solved a few special cases of high volume organization, such as the classic airline ticket and bank accounts systems). I'm a computer person from way back. I seem to have been born with both a natural inclination towards understanding computers and a natural interest in playing with them. I have been programming computers since I was two years old (back in 1957). I have some ideas about a scalable approach that would work for storing and serving large volumes of materials and some ideas about the problem of organizing the materials. This particular approach is intended to be implemented multi-site (that is, each museum or university would maintain its own portion of the overall collection, with a system that made it seem to users as if they were accessing one single well-organized collection). Most of the labor would be in data input (scanning and text), with the next biggest chunk of labor in providing good organization. Maintenance and construction of the underlying computer facilities would be extremely easy. I mention this here in case one or more of the academic members of this list might already be considering similar work. I don't have academic background or grant money, but I certainly have the computer expertise and would gladly help with such an effort. Anyone interested should contact me at . Thanks (I now return you to your regularly scheduled ancient Egyptian language messages)..... Bast and Tameran witchcraft site at: or ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:42:17 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar p9, L.4 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL Westcar p9, L.4 Geoff said, regarding line 4: iTi=Tn n=Tn sw r zwn.t tnm.w > There is a chance too that zwn.t might refer to > the process of making beer. This would make much better sense! I couldn't understand the reference to giving something instead of beer. The grain could easily be used to make beer, whereas if he offered beer, it would only last a very short time under the normal sunny conditions of Egypt. So the translation would be more like: "... so you may take it with (for) you (in order) to make beer." So, does anyone have a source for the other meaning? Faulkner gives, 'price' or 'trade', which is rather different. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:16:29 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Game 5 ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:25:54 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Mark Wilson Subject: Game 5 Hi, These games seem to be working out pretty well. Therefore, I offer you a new one. This time we have thrity-five place names (toponyms). They are mostly cities or designations thereof. See how many of them you can recognize. As usual, the game is located at the AEL website. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu The URL for game 5 is http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/games/game5.html ==============================================================================