Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:04:55 +0100 (CET) From: fergus phoenix Subject: AEL crowning of king Imn-m-Hat I To: aegyptian-l@rostau.org.uk Hi everyboy Has someone of you the glyph text of crowning of king Imn-m-Hat I°? please, if you have it send it to me thanx kni ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Merneptah--Line 3 Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:36:45 -0800 Line 3 actually begins at the end of Line 2. It was not an easy line to "crack" but when I had done it, I had to smile in admiration because now the writer is really "letting loose" and starting to show his masterful way with the language. Having worked, in the past, on the inscription inside the lid of the sarcophagus of Merneptah, it seems very evident that this reign was blessed with a very gifted writer or writers. Anyway, those of us who have only read the "Israel Stela" in translation will now really be able to appreciate the artistry of its prose--which is actually a kind of poetry--rhyming and punning in the cleverest possible manner. Sw kAf Sna wnw Hr kmt Shu, (who) dispels the cloud over Egypt rdi(t) mAA tA-mry ptr stiw itn allowing Tamera [Egypt] to see and observe the rays of the sun rwi dw n Hmti Hr nHbt pa rdi=f tAw n rxyt removing the mountain of copper upon the neck of Man, he gives breath to the people wnw nt rtH iai-ib n Hwt-kA-ptH m nAysn xftw being he who terrorizes triumphantly from Memphis over their enemies rdi[t] rSw tAtwnn m nAyf sbiw permitting Tatenen jubilation over his foes wn sbAw n inb [Memphis] wnw DbA and to open the gates of Memphis, that were barred The end of Line 3 is "rdit sSp" and begins a new phrase Discussion: Shu, of course, is the god of light--so he is the dispeller of the gloom. So Shu represents the king, Merneptah, who being "son of the sun", can be thus identified, Shu being a kind of "son of Ra" and forming a "holy trinity" with him and Tefnut. What "the mountain of copper" alludes to is rather obscure, but it is clear that "a heavy yoke" is meant. Tatenen is another god, called the "creator of men and women". He is not to be confused with Khnum--but his name is a kind of euphemism for "god" in a cosmic sense. Since Tatenen created the people of Egypt, he is now in a position to rejoice at their victories of their great lord, Merneptah, who operates on their behalf. The "rxyt" are, of course, the ordinary folk of the land. The rpat are the elite, but once in awhile it is just written "pa" in the sense of "Man" or "Mankind". "Inb" is either Memphis or a sector of the city. Why its gates were barred is a mystery. Since Memphis is at the apex of the Delta, there may have been some problems with hostile foreigners in the north, not an unknown situation in Egypt. "rwi" for "removing" is a 3inf. It is also used in a medical sense for "curing". When one merely looks at the transliteration of the glyphs, one cannot so readily see the rhyming of the words but, trust me, many more rhyme in vocalization than is apparent. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: "mark" To: Subject: AEL Merneptah Stela Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 20:06:55 -0000 Just catching up on line 2 and then line 3 (1). sDd.t nAy=f (2). nxt m tAw nbw rdit mAA tA nb dmD rdit ptr.tw nfr m nAy=f qnw nsw-bit ( bA-n-ra mr-imn ) sA ra ( mr-n-ptH Htp-Hr-mAat ) pA kA nb pHty smA xrw =f an Hr bAwy n qn h{n}d =f xpr His victories in all lands are recounted in order to allow every land assembled to see and in order to allow the goodness of his valour to be seen The king of Upper and Lower Egypt (Baenre Meryamun ) son of Re ( Merenptah Contented with Maat ) the Bull, Lord of strength who kills his enemies, magnificent upon the battlefield of valour when his attack has happened. (2). Swt kf (3). Sna wnw Hr kmt di mA tA-mri stwt itn rwi Dw n Hmt Hr nHbt pat di =f Taw n rxyt wnw nti ia ib n Hwt-kA-ptH m nAy =sn xftyw di rS tA-Tnn m nAy =f sbiw wn sbAw n inb(-HD ?) wnw DbA di Sspt (4). r-prw =f nAy =sn Sbw Shu who clears away the storm/clouds that were over Egypt, who allows Egypt to see the rays of the Aten (sun disc) who removed the mountain of copper from the neck of mankind ??? that he may give breath to the common folk who were ( breathless ?) who satifies Memphis over its enemies who allows Tatenen to rejoice over his rebels who opens the doors of Memphis that had been blocked up who allowed his temples to receive (4). their food offerings I'm not fully sure what " removed the mountain of copper..........." means, also I could not find a meaning of 'nti' but breathless or something similar seems to fit the context. Should 'inb.w' just be walls or is it 'inb-HD' Memphis ??? mark v ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 07:56:51 -1000 From: Robert Julius Bollt Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah--Line 3 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List ----- Original Message ----- From: Marianne Luban Date: Tuesday, December 7, 2004 5:36 pm Subject: AEL Merneptah--Line 3 > Line 3 actually begins at the end of Line 2. It was not an easy > line to > "crack" but when I had done it, I had to smile in admiration > because now the > writer is really "letting loose" and starting to show his > masterful way with > the language. Having worked, in the past, on the inscription > inside the lid > of the sarcophagus of Merneptah, it seems very evident that this > reign was > blessed with a very gifted writer or writers. Anyway, those of us > who have > only read the "Israel Stela" in translation will now really be > able to > appreciate the artistry of its prose--which is actually a kind of > poetry--rhyming and punning in the cleverest possible manner. > > > Sw kAf Sna wnw Hr kmt > > Shu, (who) dispels the cloud over Egypt > > rdi(t) mAA tA-mry ptr stiw itn > > allowing Tamera [Egypt] to see and observe the rays of the sun > > rwi dw n Hmti Hr nHbt pa rdi=f tAw n rxyt > > removing the mountain of copper upon the neck of Man, he gives > breath to the > people > > wnw nt rtH iai-ib n Hwt-kA-ptH m nAysn xftw being he who terrorizes triumphantly from Memphis over their enemies > Hi! Just one little thing I have different: rdi.f TAw n rxyt wnw nt.(w) giving breath to people who had been suffocated. (nti is in Hannig p. 440) ia ib n Hwt-kA-ptH m nAy.sn xftyw who satisfies (washes the heart of) Memphis with their enemies... About the mountain of copper - could this mean the burden of the Libyan invasions that he repulsed? Thanks, Rob ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL Merneptah--Line 3 Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 12:23:53 -0800 >rwi dw n Hmti Hr nHbt pa rdi=f tAw n rxyt > >removing the mountain of copper upon the neck of Man, he gives breath to >the people > I change my mind about this. It is just the pat, "the elite" among the Egyptians. What I said before makes no sense in this context. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "AEL" , "EEF" Subject: AEL (FWD) WBP Software description Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 22:31:12 +0100 [With thanks to Bastiaan Lieffering] -----Forwarded Message ----- From: "Dr. Thomas Schrader" New Freeware Dictionary-Project CBT-Software "W=F6rterbuch-Project" (WBP) 2.1 has become available. 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DOWNLOAD: http://www.kemet-time-code.de Kind regards, Thomas Schrader ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 06:56:12 +0300 Hi Everybody! On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 20:06:55 -0000 "mark" wrote: > (2). Swt kf (3). Sna wnw Hr kmt > di mA tA-mri stwt itn > rwi Dw n Hmt Hr nHbt pat > di =f Taw n rxyt wnw nti > ia ib n Hwt-kA-ptH m nAy =sn xftyw > di rS tA-Tnn m nAy =f sbiw > wn sbAw n inb(-HD ?) wnw DbA > di Sspt (4). r-prw =f nAy =sn Sbw > who removed the mountain of copper from the neck of >mankind ??? > that he may give breath to the common folk who were ( >breathless ?) I think that *rxyt* are people of Lower Egypt as apposition to people of Upper Egypt who were *pat* m Htp Tima ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 00:39:11 +0000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Merneptah Stela From: ROSMORDUC Serge I have few things to add to Mark's translations, except a few comments about grammars, which I feel are important. The most noteworthy grammatical features here are the two relatives introduced by "wn". In late egyptian, this "wn" is always the past participle. It's used to transfer a relative sentence with present time, like nty m km.t "who is in Egypt" into the past : wn m km.t "who was in Egypt". In fact, there is a more general particle "wn", which in late egyptian, is apt to transfer any sentence one degree further into the past : * pA bAk Hr wnm dAb.w : "the servant eats/is eating figs" => * wn pA bAk Hr wnm dAb.w : "the servant used to eat/was eating figs". So, as Mark did, the only possible translation for "wn Hr km.t" is "that were over Egypt" and "wn DbA" is "were closed". As for line 2, I have but three things to add : a) sDd.t is very likely an infinitive. This is absolutely normal and expected in royal texts (for that matter, the form is heavily used in middle egyptian stelae also). The infinitive can be used as a narrative device (to introduce a new episode), or, as I believe it's the case here, as a "title". It's not an epithet of the king, it's in fact the announce of what the whole stela is about : the king's victories. Maybe, if "telling the victories ... " is a bit too ugly to read in english, a more readable rendering could be : "Account of the victories..." b) I quite agree with the translation "in order to allow ...", but I suggest in this case to transliterate : "r (r)di.t am tA nb..." c) The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that we should read "am", and not mAA. I've made a post about it in which I supposed it was a scribe mistake, but after having a second look at the text, I don't think the scribe did make a mistake. Have a closer look. We see : r:di*(a:t)-G3-M:D6 Now, look at the other instances of "rd.t". None of them displays an "D36" arm. So, this D36 is part of the word that follows, which is "am". For line (3), the only problem is the value of the various participle and of di=f. In complete late egyptian, these participles would normally be an past participle (the imperfective participle being periphrased, being written "i.ir sDm" i-A2-ir:r sDm-m). In royal epithets, though, non periphrased participles are still used with imperfective meaning. In the same vein, we can hesitate for di=f between a prospective and a perfective sDm=f (the perfective sDm=f is the old "iw sDm.n=f" of middle Egyptian). Because of the "wn", I think that the form should be understood as past, and hence translated : Sw kfA Sna wn Hr kmt di mA tA mri stwt itn Shu who has dissipated the clouds which where over Egypt, who has enabled To-mery to see the rays of the Disk, rwi Dw n Hmt Hr nHb.t pat di=f Taw n rxy.t wn nti.0 Who has dismissed a mountain of bronze who was on the shoulder of the Pa.t, -- and he has given the breath to the Rekhyt who had been stifled -- Lesko's dictionary gives the writing n:t*y-Z9-A24, and refers to P. Turin 1882, (Gardiner, "A Pharaonic Encomium", JEA 41 and 42). The passage is quite similar : wn ink i.ir=i sanx ib n pa.t rxy.t wn nty ntf wHa it was me who was to give life to the spirit of high and common folks, he who where choked being unbound and released I interpret di=f as a perfective, for two reasons. First, I don't fully understand why lefting the weight which oppressed the "nobles" would allow the "commoners" to breathe (we expect some sort of parallelism in this part of the text). And second, I would expect the prospective to be written with D37. Of course, the prospective is easier to fit grammatically here. For di=f to be a perfective, it must be a parenthetic sentence. I also understand the other participles in the rest of the lines as perfectives : who has statisfied Houtkaptah over his(a) ennemies, who has made Tatenen rejoice over his rebels, (a) written "their ennemies". "their" being the inhabitants of Houtkaptah. who has opened Memphis which had been subject to a blocus, who has allowed her temples to receive their offerings. > Should 'inb.w' just be walls or is it 'inb-HD' Memphis ??? As =f is most likely in agreement for inb.w (can't be Hut-Ka-Ptah, which is feminine, and if it was tA-tnn, it would most probably be "rA-pr=f", without the plural), I think inb.w is the name of some specific place, not "walls" in general (in which case we would find "rA-prw=sn"). Besides, "inb" is known as a variant of inb-HD. Later in the stela (l. 14), we find "nty m inb.w", for "that is in Memphis". On the Wb. web database has examples of titles of one guy called Hwy, who is called in some places "HAty-a wr n inb-HD", and in others "HAty-a n inb.w". Note that normally, city names are feminine, but here it's masculine, because "inb" is masculine. Another note, more on the practical side, especially for beginners, is that it's often interesting to take into account the rythm of the text. Here, as in many compositions, we have couples of parallel sentences, so we can expect them to say more or less the same thing, and to be somehow independant of the preceding sentences. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL Merneptah Stela Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:59:50 -0800 >From: ROSMORDUC Serge > > rwi Dw n Hmt Hr nHb.t pat > di=f Taw n rxy.t wn nti.0 > > Who has dismissed a mountain of bronze who was on the shoulder > of the Pa.t, > -- and he has given the breath to the Rekhyt who had been stifled -- > >Lesko's dictionary gives the writing n:t*y-Z9-A24, and refers to >P. Turin 1882, (Gardiner, "A Pharaonic Encomium", JEA 41 and 42). >The passage is quite similar : > wn ink i.ir=i sanx ib n pa.t rxy.t wn nty ntf wHa > > it was me who was to give life to the spirit of high and common folks, > he who where choked being unbound and released Serge, I am not sure that "stifled" or "choked" is there in Line 3. I did not see a meaning like that in Hannig. Also, I can't see "nt[y] as referring to the people, despite the example you gave because of what follows. I gave it as "being he" [or rather "he was the one] because of what follows. "wnw nt rtH iai-ib n Hwt-kA-ptH m nAysn xftw being he who terrorizes triumphantly from Memphis over their enemies rdi[t] rSw tAtwnn m nAyf sbiw permitting Tatenen jubilation over his foes " The people were not the ones who enabled the victory [even though they would have really been responsible, doing the fighting, but it is the king who is being praised on the stela]. If it was the people who "wnw nty rtH", then what follows does not make sense. First one lifts the yoke from them and then gives them the breath of life but then they triumph over their own enemies?? rtH can mean "terrorize" [or "terrorized" in the past tense]--some word to that effect. And the king is the one who is triumphant and gives the jubilation to the god. Is that grammatically so impossible? > >I interpret di=f as a perfective, for two reasons. First, I don't >fully understand why lefting the weight which oppressed the "nobles" >would allow the "commoners" to breathe (we expect some sort of >parallelism in this part of the text). And second, I would expect the >prospective to be written with D37. Of course, the prospective is >easier to fit grammatically here. For di=f to be a perfective, it must >be a parenthetic sentence. You're right. In that case, perhaps I was right the first time--or nearly. All that is there is just "pa" and I recall seeing--don't ask me where now--that this can be just "Man[kind]" or "people" in general. I retracted my first impression because it seemed to me Merneptah had certainly not lifted any sort of burden from "Mankind"--just the Egyptians. So maybe the writer was just trying to say "people" twice but did not want to repeat himself by using the same term. > >I also understand the other participles in the rest of the lines as >perfectives : > >who has statisfied Houtkaptah over his(a) ennemies, >who has made Tatenen rejoice over his rebels, But it says "nAysn"--their enemies. And where is the next "nty" required before "iai-ib" if a different person is now doing the "satisfying", as you put it? Do you see what I am getting it? > >(a) written "their ennemies". "their" being the inhabitants of Houtkaptah. > It cannot be both "his enemies" and "their enemies". Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:30:07 +0000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: RE: AEL Merneptah Stela From: ROSMORDUC Serge Marianne Luban writes: > > rwi Dw n Hmt Hr nHb.t pat > > di=f Taw n rxy.t wn nti.0 > > > Serge, I am not sure that "stifled" or "choked" is there in Line 3. I did > not see a meaning like that > in Hannig. Also, I can't see "nt[y] as referring to the people, despite It is there : Hannig GWBH p. 440, col. 1 : *Atemluft. (It's found at the end of "n", because the "t" is part of the radical, and not a grammatical addition). There are at least 3 examples for this word : the one in this stela, the one in the "Pharaonic Encomium", and a third one, quoted by the WB from a stela of Dyn. XXII in Berlin (WB II, 255, 13). They are all compatible with the meaning "chocked". > the example you gave because of what follows. I gave it as "being he" [or > rather "he was the one] because of what follows. > > "wnw nt rtH iai-ib n Hwt-kA-ptH m nAysn xftw > > being he who terrorizes triumphantly from Memphis over their enemies > > The people were not the ones who enabled the victory [even though they would > have really been responsible, doing the fighting, but it is the king who is > being praised on the stela]. If it was the people who "wnw nty rtH", then > what follows does not make sense. First one lifts the yoke from them and > then gives them the breath of life but then they triumph over their own > enemies?? rtH can mean "terrorize" [or "terrorized" in the past > tense]--some word to that effect. And the king is the one who is triumphant > and gives the jubilation to the god. Is that grammatically so impossible? What you read as "rtH" is the determinative of "nti". Late Egyptian writing often used multiple determinatives at the same time for a word. Hence you have both the nose determinative (for breath related actions), and the D40 determinative for violent actions. Besides, as far as grammar goes, there is are problems with your rendering, even if we consider wn as an imperfective participle, which is *very* unlikely in Late Egyptian. First, we would have the sequence wn + nty : why not simply "nty", "pA nty", or "wnn" ? Second, we would expect "nty Hr rtH", and not "nty rtH". It's true that late egyptian scribes did not always write these preposition, but it's in general a XXth dynasty feature, and it would be strange side by side with such an archaism as an imperfective wn. Third, no participle should be translated "being he who ...", because this would be a circumstantial sentence, and the scribes would have used a virtual relative clause. Fourth, can iai-ib be used adverbially ? I think we should have "m ia ib", in this case. There is also a stylistic point about these sentences. It's clear that this part of the text contains couples of balancing sentences. > >who has statisfied Houtkaptah over his(a) ennemies, > >(a) written "their ennemies". "their" being the inhabitants of Houtkaptah. > It cannot be both "his enemies" and "their enemies". It can, it's just a translation problem, not a grammatical one. The Egyptian scribe did write "over their ennemies", and was perfectly correct as far as Egyptian grammar goes. He made the agreement between the pronoun and the *inhabitants* of the town. It's a bit like the people is statisfied vs. the people are statisfied. The problem is that English (or French) don't allow this kind of agreements, so we have to modify the translation to get something readable. (See Gardiner, =A7 510) > >who has made Tatenen rejoice over his rebels, > > But it says "nAysn"--their enemies. And where is the next "nty" required > before "iai-ib" if a different person is now doing the "satisfying", as you > put it? Do you see what I am getting it? There is no "nty" before ia ib. "ia" is the participle of the verb "ia", "to wash". The grammar of the passage is : ia participle "he who has washed" (or maybe who washes) ib the heart : direct object of ia n Hwt-kA-ptH : genitive after ib=20 m nAy=sn xftyw : circ. complement. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:57:29 -1000 From: Robert Julius Bollt Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela (nty) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Nty can be found in Hannig, top of page 400. Rob ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL Merneptah--Line 3 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 14:08:30 -0800 >Sw kAf Sna wnw Hr kmt > >Shu, (who) dispeled the cloud over Egypt > >rdi(t) mAA tA-mry ptr stiw itn > >allowing Tamera [Egypt] to see and observe the rays of the sun > >rwi dw n Hmti Hr nHbt pa rdi=f tAw n rxyt > >removing the mountain of copper upon the neck of Man, he gives breath to >the people > >wnw nt rtH iai-ib n Hwt-kA-ptH m nAysn xftw > >being he who terrorized triumphantly from Memphis over their enemies > >rdi[t] rSw tAtwnn m nAyf sbiw > >permitting Tatenen jubilation over his foes > >wn sbAw n inb [Memphis] wnw DbA > >and opened the gates of Memphis, that were barred > [I changed things to the past tense per instruction of Serge] I think I am getting some sense of what "the mountain of copper" [or perhaps it's some other mineral] is all about it. In the pHarris there is "....XAst aiynA...iw st inHw-tw m sbti mi dw n biAt m 20 n DADAwi m znti tA, etc..." "....the foreign land of Aiyna...it is enlcosed by ramparts like a mountain of iron with 20 walls" and so on. My speculation is that something had happened to Memphis. Perhaps some foreign group had taken it over. If one reads the pHarris, recounting things that occurred in the reign of Ramesses III, one sees things there that are very strange. Foreigners having taken over various parts of Egypt, with Ramesses III having had to battle them. I now think that a "mountain of copper, whatever", could only refer to some fortification of an enemy that had prevented the Egyptians from having access to Memphis. They did not hold it anymore and had subjected its inhabitants. If it is true that the Egyptians were "stifled"--that would be the reason why. But the pharaoh, Merneptah, had battled these dissidents and had "opened the gates of Memphis" in triumph. I can't know just when Merneptah built his palace at Memphis, but when the University of Pennsylvania excavated it, it seems to have been burnt to the ground. Whether this occurred before Year 5 or long after is impossible to say. Perhaps the troubles of Merneptah never really ended because we have a letter written to his daughter at Per-Ramesses by some singers who had gone to Memphis, saying they were very worried about her and themselves, as well. They wrote "we are alright today, but don't know how we will be tomorrow". And, of course, following the death of Merneptah, there soon came total civil war between kings and rivals. That is my take. Marianne Luban ==============================================================================