Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:57:16 GMT From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P8/L7-12 >>>>> "Graham" == Graham writes: >> P8/L10-11 iai.in=sn sw Sad XpA=f rdi Hr ifd.y m Db.t They >> washed him, cut his umbilical cord, (then) placed (him) upon a >> cloth on bricks Graham> Now, we are back to this line with the strange fors again. Graham> I know we went over it before, but the only thing sticking Graham> in my head is the passive sDm.w=f form of S`d, then the Graham> rest still eludes me. What did James Hoch finally suggest Graham> again for rdj? I think it means "his umbilical cord was Graham> cut, and (he) was placed upon a brick-shaped pillow". Well, after some thought : iai.in=sn sw no problem Sad XpA=f sDmw=f passive, WITH ACCOMPLISHED VALUE. I think James Hoch meant that you'd probably wash the baby AFTER cutting the umbilical cord, and so the sDmw=f here is not a continuative form, but means 'when his umbilical cord had been cut'. rdi Hr ifdy an old perfective, its subject being either the baby or the cord. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:28:44 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Game 2 A copy of this message, complete with hieroglyphs, is available from http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/games/index.html ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:15:44 -0500 (EST) From: Graham Subject: Game 2 Hello, Since people seem to have been interested in the last game, I decided to put another one out there for you. This time it is a little longer and taller. In fact, there are as many as 40 tall signs out there waiting for you to take as long a time as you like to figure out what on earth sounds and or ideas the represented. I find this bunch a little more difficult than the birds, especially since during every period these signs were carved a little differently depending on fashions. In this case we have some more from the tomb of Ptahhotep (Dynasty V) and some from Middle Kingdom monuments of Amenemhat and Sobekhotep. While you are out there looking at the signs, take a moment to observe how Mark Wilson has been building resources for us at the site. I think he is doing a splendid job. Be well, and enjoy! Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:15:10 -0500 From: beaumont@kodak.com (E Beaumont) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL learning hieroglyphs As a new student to the learning of Egyptian hieroglyphs i'm hoping this question is not to basic , because I'm self taught. In looking at your email I notice that all correspondence uses "Manual de Codage" as the method to convey hieroglyphs. I also noticed that two symbols are left out , the "mouth r"and the "pond h/.", why? as well as where is a good reference on how to use this coding method?? Regards, Eugene S. Beaumont Jr. ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:19:44 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P8/L7-12 Hi, Serge, > Sad XpA=f sDmw=f passive, WITH ACCOMPLISHED VALUE. I think James Hoch > meant that you'd probably wash the baby AFTER cutting the > umbilical cord, and so the sDmw=f here is not a continuative > form, but means 'when his umbilical cord had been cut'. You then mean the "preterite" or the pluperfect? > rdi Hr ifdy an old perfective, its subject being either the baby > or the cord. Yet isn't it particularly disturbing that the subject of this stative would either already have been functioning as the subject of S`d or be so far removed in position? I think it is extremely odd, and this leads me to believe that it cannot be a stative. Yet, my suggestion that it were a participle bothered James, who pointed out that there were no nouns around for it to modify. Wouldn't the situation really be the same for a stative? You kind of need a noun for it to work, and all the nouns are already performing other functions here. A subjectless stative would be even odder than a subectless participle in my opinion. To me there are only two potential subjects for whatever rdj is: j`j.jn=sn sw S`d.w Xp3=f rdj Hr jrd.y m Db.t ^^ ^^^ Either "they" or "his umbilical cord". The umbilical cord is already used as a subect for the sDm.w=f. Is it really possible for it to also function as the subject of a stative at the same time? Yet, with "they", it is also a bit far away from rdj, and it could not be stative, but maybe a participle. One wants it to be "the child", yet the child has not been mentioned in any recent part of the text where it could be the subject of rdj. If there were only one example of this, I would have decided that the scribe made an error, but this papyrus repeats this line THREE times! What on earth is going on? It just does not seem like any good Egyptian with which I am familiar. But then, the entire Papyrus Prisse with Ptahhotep's maxims seems to be just like it, utterly unintelligible Middle Egyptian where every translator has basically had to make it up as he goes along, otherwise it means nothing at all. Well, anyway, I do not feel satisfied that James, you, or I have solved this one yet. Both of you are certainly more grammatically inclined than I am. Doesn't it still seem strange to you even if you take it as stative? Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:07:06 +0000 Subject: AEL Learning hieroglyphs / Web page updated Some new links have been added to the AEL homepage. 1. Learn to to read hieroglyphs! This is an introduction to Egyptian hieroglyphs which assumes no prior knowledge of Ancient Egyptian. It includes a chart of the monoliterals to get you started! 2. Fun with hieroglyphs. Includes the '20 birds', and '40 tall signs' exercise from Geoff Graham. 3. Stephen Fryer's hieratic pages. Stephen's introduction to hieratic. There is also a facsimile (96dpi) of the entire original of the story of the Shipwrecked Sailor (P.Leningrad 1115). 4. Beginning Coptic This is Geoff Graham's introduction to Coptic that appeared on the list last month. This web version includes better representations of the Coptic characters than was possible in the original Ascii text message that appeared on the list. Enjoy! Best wishes, Mark. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:28:58 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL learning hieroglyphs E Beaumont wrote: > > As a new student to the learning of Egyptian hieroglyphs i'm hoping this > question is not to basic , because I'm self taught. In looking at your email I > notice that all correspondence uses "Manual de Codage" as the method to > convey hieroglyphs. I also noticed that two symbols are left out , the > "mouth r"and the "pond h/.", why? as well as where is a good reference on how to > use this coding method?? There is a web page describing it in detail (more than you want?) at: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/codage/codage.htm Not all people on the list follow this standard exactly, as you will see. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 07:37:46 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL learning hieroglyph To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL learning hieroglyphs Dear Eugene, Welcome. MdeC is a long story but is well described by Hans at the CCER web site. Point your browser to: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/codage/codage.htm The 'mouth r' is just a lower case 'r' and the pond h/ sign (do you mean /sh/) is S (ie. upper case s). Once e-mail improves then we can all use the conventional phonetic symbols, but for now, MdeC is the convenient option. Best wishes, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne -------------------------------------- Date: 4/11/97 7:13 AM To: Michael Dyall-Smith From: Ancient Egyptian Language List As a new student to the learning of Egyptian hieroglyphs i'm hoping this question is not to basic , because I'm self taught. In looking at your email I notice that all correspondence uses "Manual de Codage" as the method to convey hieroglyphs. I also noticed that two symbols are left out , the "mouth r"and the "pond h/.", why? as well as where is a good reference on how to use this coding method?? Regards, Eugene S. Beaumont Jr. ---------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 09:17:41 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL games/Scribe of KMT To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: games/Scribe of KMT Congratulations to Mark for adding the new material for beginners! I've just checked them out and I think they will be very useful. Regarding Geoff's two games. I find them both 'challenging', recognising most, but remembering the values of, well, not so many... As an adjunct, have many AEL members used my program, Scribe of KMT, a mac-only (at present) HyperCard program for learning the alphabet and biliterals? Embedded (and mostly 'hidden') along the way are quite a few games to help learn the signs. It can be downloaded from the CCER FTP site. You need a reasonable mac and the most recent HyperCard player (ver.2.3). Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== From: "Leslie Bailey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Game 2 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:45:49 -0500 1. S-43 walking stick md 2. T-8 dagger of archaic type tp 3. P-8 oar xrw 4. T-20 OK form of harpoon head of bone dot k s 5. T-3 mace with pear shaped head H Djandja 6. T-16 scimetar ? 7. S-42 sceptre of authority Ayin b3 8. U-36 club used by fullers in washing Hm 9. Aa-27 doubtful n Djandja 10. T-22 two barbed arrow head sn 11. T-19 harpoon head of bone gn 12. R-8 cloth wound on pole n Chima r 13. S-40 sceptre with straight shaft w3s 14. V-24 cord wound on stick (OK and MK) w Djandja 15. M-7 combo of M-4 (palm branch) and Q-3 (stool) rnpi 16. T-18 crook with package shin ms 17. T-35 butcher's knife nm 18. Aa-21 carpenter's tool? W Djandja Ayin 19. M-4 stripped palm branch rnp 20. U-27 OK drill being used to bore a hole in a bead wb3 21. F-35 heart and windpipe nfr 22. D-50 finger Djandja b Ayin 23. P-8 oar xrw 24. S-43 walking stick md 25. O-29 wooden column Ayin 3 26. T-35 butcher's knife nm 27. S-42 sceptre of authority Ayin b3 28. T-4 mace with pear shaped head and strap H Djandja 29. Aa-11 doubtful m3 Ayin 30. T-14 throw stick 31. F-36 lung and windpipe sm3 32. S-34 sandal strap Ayin n x 33. O-28 column with tenon at top? iwn 34. U-23 chisel mr 35. W-14 tall water pot Hst 36. U-29 fire drill OK Djandja 3 37. U-39 post of balance w Chima s 38. U-34 spindle xsf 39. R-9 combo of R-8 (cloth on pole) and V-33 (bag of linen) bd 40. V-18 OK rolled up herdsman's shelter of papyrus s3 ============================================================================== From: kdfrank@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 22:07:53 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL of what use the poet's poem The following poem fragment,as I recall it, supposedly came from an Egyptian Rosetta stone: "Of what use the poet's poem, Of what use the bowman's dart? Unless one's sences are set reeling, When it sticks quivering in the heart." I have several questions related to this verse. 1) Is it from an Egyptian Rosetta Stone? 2) If so, what is the history of the stone? 3) Where can I get the complete translated poem? 4) Where can I get the poem in hieroglyphic form? Thanks in advance for any help that will be provided. Dale Frank ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:42:44 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P8/L7-12 To: to AEL Mail*Link(r) SMTP RE>AEL Westcar P8/L7-12 The passage: iai.in=sn sw Sad XpA=f rdi Hr ifd.y m Db.t Translated as: "They washed him, cut his umbilical cord, (then) placed (him) upon a cloth on bricks" Noting the discussion about this passage, I would like to forward Antonio Loprieno's comments about it (below). "Gapping" (mentioned below) is, I believe, a form of abbreviation used in a language where a word is omitted in a sentence because it is obvious (at least to native speakers) from the context. This is more often used in the spoken language, ie. discourse. In isolation the sentence may appear ungrammatical. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au PS: Antonio has given permission for me to forward his mail to the AEL. -------------------------------------- Date: 4/11/97 1:50 PM From: LOPRIENO@humnet.ucla.edu Dear Mike, I think the following is the way I would proceed: "Then they washed him, after having cut his umbilical cord, and he was placed upon a cushion in (the form of) a brick." The passive sDm(.w)=f Sad XpA=f is probably anterior to the event described in the initial form, whereas the Stative rDj(.w), whose subject is clearly the object sw of the initial form omitted through "gapping," is temporally neutral, but aspectually perfective. Therefore my translation "and he was placed," the connection with the preceding portion of discourse being guaranteed by the gapping of the subject, as I said above. This use of the stative is probably not to be found in every Egyptian sentence, but it is not infrequent either. An example at random: CT I 223g-224b B10Cc: Dj=f a.wj=f(j) Hr nb nTr.w Ha.y xa.y m ns.t gb rD.y jA(.w) m-Xnw ddw "May he (=Anubis) place his arms on the Lord of the Gods (=Osiris), who has rejoiced having appeared on the throne of Geb, to whom praise is given in Busiris." in order to be properly understood, the two dependent clauses Ha.y xa.y m ns.t gb and rD.y jA(.w) m-Xnw ddw need to be referred to the subject nb nTr.w in the main clause. I would exclude the participial interpretation for rDj(.w) in the Westcar passage, since (1) either the participle is a qualifier, in which case it must follow the noun it refers to, which is not the case here, or (2) if predicative, the participle must appear in a nfr sw construction, which is also not what our passage displays. I hope this helps. Best Antonio LOPRIENO@humnet.ucla.edu ------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:16:20 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P8/L7-12 Graham writes: > Hi, Serge, >=20 > > Sad XpA=3Df=09sDmw=3Df passive, WITH ACCOMPLISHED VALUE. I think J= ames Hoch > > =09=09meant that you'd probably wash the baby AFTER cutting the > > =09=09umbilical cord, and so the sDmw=3Df here is not a continuati= ve > > =09=09form, but means 'when his umbilical cord had been cut'. >=20 > You then mean the "preterite" or the pluperfect? The pluperfect. >=20 > > rdi Hr ifdy=09an old perfective, its subject being either the baby= > > =09=09or the cord.=20 >=20 > Yet isn't it particularly disturbing that the subject of this stativ= e > would either already have been functioning as the subject of S`d or = be so > far removed in position? I think it is extremely odd, and this lead= s me > to believe that it cannot be a stative. Yet, my suggestion that it = were a > participle bothered James, who pointed out that there were no nouns = around > for it to modify. Wouldn't the situation really be the same for a > stative? You kind of need a noun for it to work, and all the nouns = are > already performing other functions here. A subjectless stative woul= d be > even odder than a subectless participle in my opinion. Well, if it's a participle, you have a noun group there. How do you attach it to the rest of the sentence ? >=20 > To me there are only two potential subjects for whatever rdj is: > j`j.jn=3Dsn sw S`d.w Xp3=3Df rdj Hr jrd.y m Db.t > ^^ ^^^ =20 > Either "they" or "his umbilical cord". =20 or 'sw', if it is the child. > The umbilical cord is already used > as a subect for the sDm.w=3Df. Is it really possible for it to also > function as the subject of a stative at the same time? Yet, with "th= ey", Yes it is possible. This kind of construction has even got a name : "construction ench=E2ss=E9e" ou "construction nexale". Away from any grammar, I can't get you a reference right now... In fact, we have already found an example : "gm.n=3Dsn sw aHa=3Dw". An even better example, which is not built with 'gmi' : "aHa.n in.n=3Df sw rd n Hnwt=3Df" ("Snefrou refreshes his heart"'s tale= ) Here, we have no problem to decide who is who : 'sw' is the fish of mefekat, and the translation is=20 "Then he fetched it, and it was given to his owner", or better : "Then he fetched it, and gave it to his owner". we basically find : aHa.n in.n=3Df sw =09 sw rd=3Dw n Hnwt=3Df But I admit that these examples sound better than the current one. I'll try to find more examples. > It just does not seem like any good Egyptian > with which I am familiar. =20 =20 > But then, the entire Papyrus Prisse with > Ptahhotep's maxims seems to be just like it, utterly unintelligible = Middle > Egyptian where every translator has basically had to make it up as h= e goes > along, otherwise it means nothing at all. =20 An interesting point about Prisse P. Vernus has pointed out in his seminar is that the 18th dynasty versions tend to differ a lot from the Prisse version in the obscure parts, which shows that new kingdom scribes had problems there. regards, --=20 Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:13:51 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Game 2 Hi, Leslie, You sure are prodigious! > 1. S-43 walking stick md also known as the "staff of old age", and it should rightly contain a /w/ for the sign was probably actually a triliteral mdw, since all words in which it was used are of that root. > 2. T-8 dagger of archaic type tp > 3. P-8 oar xrw > 4. T-20 OK form of harpoon head of bone dot k s Right: qs is the ascii for that. (q = dotted k) > 5. T-3 mace with pear shaped head H Djandja HD (captical d = underscore d) > 6. T-16 scimetar ? No, let's see if anyone else can figure it out. > 7. S-42 sceptre of authority Ayin b3 `b3 (the real manuel de codage system would type abA, but I hate using vowels myself.) yes, but this sign has three phonetic readings. Can anyone think of the other two? > 8. U-36 club used by fullers in washing Hm > 9. Aa-27 doubtful n Djandja nD > 10. T-22 two barbed arrow head sn > > 11. T-19 harpoon head of bone gn OK, but what do you see as the difference between qs and gn? Is there one? > 12. R-8 cloth wound on pole n Chima r nTr (capital t stands for underscore t) > 13. S-40 sceptre with straight shaft w3s > 14. V-24 cord wound on stick (OK and MK) w Djandja wD > 15. M-7 combo of M-4 (palm branch) and Q-3 (stool) rnpi > > 16. T-18 crook with package shin ms Sms (capital s stands for {esh}) > 17. T-35 butcher's knife nm > 18. Aa-21 carpenter's tool? W Djandja Ayin wD` > 19. M-4 stripped palm branch rnp > 20. U-27 OK drill being used to bore a hole in a bead wb3 > > 21. F-35 heart and windpipe nfr > 22. D-50 finger Djandja b Ayin Db` > 23. P-8 oar xrw > 24. S-43 walking stick md > 25. O-29 wooden column Ayin 3 `3 > 26. T-35 butcher's knife nm > 27. S-42 sceptre of authority Ayin b3 `b3 yes, and its other two values? > 28. T-4 mace with pear shaped head and strap H Djandja HD > 29. Aa-11 doubtful m3 Ayin No, not that sign. What about the knot tied around it? Try again. > 30. T-14 throw stick and how many values can you name for this sign. There are two values which were primary, and there are several outhers which accrued to it secondarily. > 31. F-36 lung and windpipe sm3 You are right, but let me point out that in old Egyptian it would be zm3, since Old Egyptian, unlike Middle Egyptian, maintained the two s's distinct as s and z. This sign related to words deriving from zm3, and not the same as sm3. Can anyone find the sign which once represented sm3 as opposed to zm3? This is difficult, but possible. ;-P > 32. S-34 sandal strap Ayin n x `nx > 33. O-28 column with tenon at top? iwn > 34. U-23 chisel mr There is also another phonteic value too. > 35. W-14 tall water pot Hst You are right that the name of this obect had a feminine .t, but the value of the sign was only the fist two phonemes. Moreover, as in the case of zm3, this is another sign with an Old Egyptian /z/ having been lost in a Middle Egyptian /s/. Hz. Can anyone tell me which words meant what? Hs and Hz in Old Egyptian? You may laugh when you realize what an important phonemic disticntion this once was! ;-P > 36. U-29 fire drill OK Djandja 3 D3 > 37. U-39 post of balance w Chima s wTz, but also another value. Anyone know which? > 38. U-34 spindle xsf Now that I have introduced the topic of /s/ versus /z/, let me ust point out that this one had an original /s/ = xsf, just as you wrote it. > 39. R-9 combo of R-8 (cloth on pole) and V-33 (bag of linen) bd > 40. V-18 OK rolled up herdsman's shelter of papyrus s3 original z3 Well, you did great. There are still a few items which others can address. Leslie, you have certainly already proved your abilities here, so let's see if anyone else can come up with the answers to the questions still open. Thanks! RECAPITULATION: The remaining solutions to find: value of 6? two more values for 7 and 27? more values for 11??? are qs and gn different? value of 29? several values for 30? can you find sm3, which is a different sign from zm3 (31)? second value of 34? what was the difference between Hz and Hs in Old Egyptian? ;-P second value for 37? Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:51:58 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P8/L7-12 Hi, Serge, Thanks for your patience, and all the examples. > Well, if it's a participle, you have a noun group there. How do you > attach it to the rest of the sentence ? Quite right. I think Loprieno's message sort of addressed this. > Yes it is possible. This kind of construction has even got a name : > "construction ench=E2ss=E9e" ou "construction nexale". Away from any > grammar, I can't get you a reference right now... In fact, we have > already found an example : "gm.n=3Dsn sw aHa=3Dw". Apparently he was talking about this too. > An interesting point about Prisse P. Vernus has pointed out in his > seminar is that the 18th dynasty versions tend to differ a lot from > the Prisse version in the obscure parts, which shows that new kingdom > scribes had problems there. Yes, Faulkner himself says that the papyrus is virtually incomprehensible. Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== From: "BDTF HALLGATO" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:26:27 GMT +0200 Subject: AEL Re: AEL of what use the poet's poem Dear Dale Frank! I have to admit that I am a little bit confused as far as your message is concerned. My first problem is the term "an Egyptian Rosetta Stone". Actually there exist only one written record under this title, however it stands quite far from being a poetical text. The so-called "Rosetta Stone" was one of the most prescious results of Napoleon`s Egyptian military action in 1799. The title originates from the name of the settlement Rasid (French Rosetta) in the neighbourhood of which a French soldier has found it. This stone contains a declaration of the Egyptian clerus in two different languages (late Egyptian and ancient Greek) put in three different writing systems (hierogliphic, demotic and Greek). It is rather an important historical and religious record - no words for its crucial role in the process of solving the clue of the hierogliphs - and has not too much to do with the Egyptian literature as an art. This extract of yours cannot be found on the Rosetta Stone (now in the British Museum). If it is required I may come up with proper bibliographical datas concerning books on ancient Egyptian literature. Regards Zoltan Horvath Elte University, Budapest Egyptological department ============================================================================== From: "BDTF HALLGATO" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:46:41 GMT +0200 Subject: AEL de Buck`s reading book Dear Michael! Thanks for your letter concerning de Buck`s "Egyptian Reading Book". Naturally, this has occured many times during the AEL discussion and I`m aware of the references connected to the Westcar analysys. However - I should have been obscure last time -, my regards concentrated on strictly methodological problems. There has been so many messages received from absolute or `semi` beginners asking for sufficient material to support their evaluation, but I found none of us offering de Buck`s pages as a help for them. I wonder why? Is there any serious problem with it? Or is there a better work for the same purpose? Please inform me if you have reasons . Thanx Zoltan Horvath ELTE University, Budapest Egyptological Department ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:37:19 -0500 (EST) From: Luxor3@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Re: AEL of what use the poet's poem I would be interested in the bibliographical data for books on ancient Egyptian literature you may have. Thank you. LKordus ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:54:00 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL de Buck`s read To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL de Buck`s reading book Dear Zoltan Horvath, This is true. I think the de Buck exercises would be most useful for beginners. At one stage I was keying in equivalents for a teaching program for self-instruction but I got involved in other things. I think getting the book may be difficult for many on the list so perhaps we could extract some of the de Buck pages and put them up on the AEL. Unfortunately I am a bit overcommitted with Westcar and developing a hieratic font {anyone with font experience please post to me privately as I have little idea of the finer points of encoding and cross-platform niceties!}. Any other members have thoughts on de Buck as a contempory teaching resource? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne -------------------------------------- Date: 6/11/97 6:59 AM To: Michael Dyall-Smith From: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Michael! Thanks for your letter concerning de Buck`s "Egyptian Reading Book". Naturally, this has occured many times during the AEL discussion and I`m aware of the references connected to the Westcar analysys. However - I should have been obscure last time -, my regards concentrated on strictly methodological problems. There has been so many messages received from absolute or `semi` beginners asking for sufficient material to support their evaluation, but I found none of us offering de Buck`s pages as a help for them. I wonder why? Is there any serious problem with it? Or is there a better work for the same purpose? Please inform me if you have reasons . Thanx Zoltan Horvath ELTE University, Budapest Egyptological Department ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:28:18 -0500 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Re: Westcar: antecedent of rdi(w) Hr ifd To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Some time ago I raised the point about Sad(w) XpA.f, which can really only mean, "his umbilical cord having been cut" (i.e. the action of the main clause "Then they washed him" must take place AFTER the action of cutting the umbilicus--which is only logical, when you think of it.) The clause beginning rdi(w) is also a circumstantial clause, but of a different type. The clause with the sDm(w).f passive is quite time-specific (i. e. action is PRIOR to that of the main clause). The second modifying clause: rdi(w) Hr ifd... is not time specific. But another point needs to be addressed. There is nothing at all missing here: the antecedent was correctly identified as sw "him" (i.e. the infant was placed upon....) The grammar requires a subordinate clause of indefinite time, and this corresponds to the English "he being placed upon..." English style, would, however, give preference to a co-ordinated clause "and he was placed" (i.e., English would co-ordinate the clause to the first clause). The stative (or old perfective) does not take a subject. It does, however, require an antecedent. The pronoun sw serves this function perfectly well. I could cite a number of well known examples of almost parallel use (including the vague time reference). So, nothing really odd OR missing here. James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== From: "Leslie Bailey" To: Subject: Re: AEL Game 2 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:41:20 -0500 Some more guesses: >value of 6? T-13 pieces of wood joined and lashed at the joint rs >two more values for 7 and 27? In addition to `b3, S-42 also can be sxm and xrp >more values for 11??? qrs , 3b , and twr >are qs and gn different? >value of 29? M-40 bundle of reeds js >several values for 30? Primary throw stick (T-14) values are: qm3 , and Tnj . Secondary values are: sbj , D`r , m(j)nj , and mtr . >can you find sm3, which is a different sign from zm3 (31)? >second value of 34? 3b >what was the difference between Hz and Hs in Old Egyptian? > second value for 37? Tsj (Tzj) ============================================================================== From: "BDTF HALLGATO" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:10:44 GMT +0200 Subject: AEL books on Egyptian literature Dear LKordus! Here comes the list of a couple of books which embody a solid material on the ancient Egyptian literature: H. Brunner: Grundzueze einer Geschichte der altagyptischen Literatur. Darmstadt, 1966. E. Brunner-Traut: Altagyptishe Marchen. Duesseldorf-Koeln, 1963. L. Foti: The History in the Prophecies of Noferti...(Studia Aegyptiaca II. Budapest, 1976.) G. Lefebvre: Romans et contes egyptiens. Paris, 1949. Literatur (Handbuch der Orientalistik. Agyptologie. 2. Abschn.) Leiden, 1970. Literature of Ancient Egypt. (W.K.Simpson ed.) New Haven, 1972. G. Posener: Litterature et politique dans l`Egypte de la XIIe dynastie. Paris, 1956. G. Posener: L`enseignement loyaliste. Geneve, 1976. Further references to this topic might be available from the bibliography of these works. As primer sources of the ancient Egyptien written records you will certainly find references to works like "J.H. Breasted: Ancient Records of Egypt I-V. New York, 1962.", the several volumes of "Urkunden des agyptischen Alterums", or even "J.B.Pritchard: Ancient Near Eastern texts Relating to the Old Testament. Princeton, 1955.(abbr. ANET)" Good work with them! Regards, Zoltan Horvath ELTE University, Budapest Egyptological Department ============================================================================== From: MWhealton Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:58:55 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Ptahhotep - Papyrus Prisse This is my first posting to the list. I've been reading a few weeks now and have been enjoying it immensely. Since people have mentioned Papyrus Prisse, I thought I'd let people know that I have been putting up the Sethe text on the web: http://members.aol.com/mwhealton/pthgly.htm I have five pages of glyph done so far and will eventually include Sethe's notes and variants (when Glyph for Windows 2.0 arrives so I can insert latin superscripts). People can at least take a look for themselves and decide on the grammar. Some parts of the text are approachable, others not so. Please bear with translation inconsistencies. I realize now that I've made some statives present tense in the translation. This is mostly a way to achieve some sort of sensible english style, but I'll try to render them better as I go on... I'll also be breaking up the transliteration page to match the glyph pages. Any suggestions would be graciously accepted! Regards, Matt Whealton ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:11:04 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 2 Hi, Leslie, I see that no one else has decided to attempt this. Thanks for being persistent. > Some more guesses: > > >value of 6? > T-13 pieces of wood joined and lashed at the joint rs No, unfortunately not. Maybe it is time to just tell: it was S39 `wt, but I see where your problem lies. Gardiner's font does a terrible job of representing this sign which usually curves back slightly too and not only forward. Gardiner tried to base his font on the hieroglyphs of the early XVIIIth Dynasty, kind of midway between the Old ones and the new ones. However, I still hardly recall seeing the `wt sign looking like he has represented it there. Anyway, if you are working on a real inscription you are likely to find something more like #6 in this game than you are to find it looking like Gardiner's font. > >two more values for 7 and 27? > In addition to `b3, S-42 also can be sxm and xrp Right. > >more values for 11??? > qrs , 3b , and twr Yes: qrs by some kind of extention from qs. > >are qs and gn different? No, they are the same sign, but 4 and 11 were written in the Old and Middle Kingdom ways. By the Middle Kingdom the sign was becoming attenuated and stylized, bearing less resemblance to the original object. > >value of 29? > M-40 bundle of reeds js Got it! Good. That would be Old Kingdom jz. > >several values for 30? > Primary throw stick (T-14) values are: qm3 , and Tnj . Yes. > Secondary values are: sbj , D`r , m(j)nj , and mtr . Yes, it can be a determinative for these, but not really a phonetic writing. I can still think of several more though, but since I have already prepared a new game, I will just fill you in on what I was looking for: nHsy, `3mw, THnw, TmHw.... all those names for foreigners which sometimes get abbreviated with this sign plus people determinatives, and maybe a phonetic compliment or two thrown in so that it is not entirely ambiguous which foreigners were meant. > >can you find sm3, which is a different sign from zm3 (31)? OK, give in? It was Aa25, that pointed obect with a crescent moon accross it. Otherwise, you could also have suggested S31 which is the {s} with a {m3} sickle written through it. > >second value of 34? > 3b Yep! > >what was the difference between Hz and Hs in Old Egyptian? OK, Hz meant "favor/praise" and Hs meant "excrement", which would YOU like heaped on you? It seems to me that there must have been a voweling disticntion between these words as well, otherwise how could Middle Egyptian have lost the distinction in /z/ and /s/ and NOT changed one of these words so they would not sound alike? I might also point out now, for those of you who have not heard this before, {z} was chosen to represent the "first s" in Egyptology at a time when they thought that its value had been /z/, however, it is now relatively clear that its original value was actually //, like {th} in English "think". By the Middle Kingdom, this phoneme had become slurred into /s/, and was utterly indistinguishable from {s}. So, Middle Egyptian did not care which sign was used, because an /s/ was an /s/ was an /s/, and they no longer had an "eth", unless the speaker had a lisp, in which case both were then pronounced "eth", and he/she still had no problem! > > second value for 37? > Tsj (Tzj) Good. Great job, Leslie! Be well! Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:16:31 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Ptahhotep - Papyrus Prisse Hi, Matt, Welcome to posting on AEL. I hope you will participate in more of our translations and activities. There seem to be few people who offer translations, and if you are capable of dealing with Ptahhotep, then you are definitely capable of dealing with Westcar, Weni, and the Hymn to the Aten! There is really no more difficult text in Middle Egyptian than Ptahhotep and even great Egyptologists have been known to throw up their hands in exasperation over its nuances! > This is my first posting to the list. I've been reading a few weeks now and > have been enjoying it immensely. Since people have mentioned Papyrus Prisse, > I thought I'd let people know that I have been putting up the Sethe text on > the web: > http://members.aol.com/mwhealton/pthgly.htm I will have to go have a look at what you have done. I just finished reading this papyrus, and I must tell you that it was the most formidable endeavor I have ever undertaken AND accomplished. It has to be equally as difficult as reading Third Dynasty inscriptions and early Demotic put together! However, I have it all fresh in my mind, and am writing a paper concerning Gerhard Fecht's interpretations of it even now. > I have five pages of glyph done so far and will eventually include Sethe's > notes and variants (when Glyph for Windows 2.0 arrives so I can insert latin > superscripts). > People can at least take a look for themselves and decide on the grammar. > Some parts of the text are approachable, others not so. > Please bear with translation inconsistencies. I realize now that I've made > some statives present tense in the translation. This is mostly a way to > achieve some sort of sensible english style, but I'll try to render them > better as I go on... You have to know as well that the available translations of Ptahhotep all indulge in liberal grammar! ;-P What else can you do with sentences which make nearly no sense at all? Oh, there are interpretations galore, and it will be fun to discuss some of them and their merits. > I'll also be breaking up the transliteration page to match the glyph pages. > Any suggestions would be graciously accepted! My comment: "why oh why????" ;-P Just kidding. It is a very interesting text and it is quite controversial. It will probably be beyond the ken of most learners however, and if they do not want to be sent into fits of frustration, wondering what on earth is wrong with their brains for not getting it, they had best just have a look but realize that this text is one which even big wigs hardly dare to tackle. Be well. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 13:23:47 -0800 From: "Kasia & Malcolm Jarrett (www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/egyptology/Szpak/kasia.html)" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL books on Egyptian literature Hi! I would also add: Loprieno, Antonio, ed. 1996. Ancient Egyptian Literature: History and For= ms. Vol. 10, Probleme der =C4gyptologie. Leiden, New York, K=F6ln: E.J. Brill. An excellent reference work by the top scholars in the field today! --Kasia BDTF HALLGATO wrote: >=20 > Dear LKordus! > Here comes the list of a couple of books which embody a solid > material on the ancient Egyptian literature: >=20 > H. Brunner: Grundzueze einer Geschichte der altagyptischen Literatur. > Darmstadt, 1966. >=20 > E. Brunner-Traut: Altagyptishe Marchen. Duesseldorf-Koeln, 1963. >=20 > L. Foti: The History in the Prophecies of Noferti...(Studia > Aegyptiaca II. Budapest, 1976.) >=20 > G. Lefebvre: Romans et contes egyptiens. Paris, 1949. >=20 > Literatur (Handbuch der Orientalistik. Agyptologie. 2. Abschn.) > Leiden, 1970. >=20 > Literature of Ancient Egypt. (W.K.Simpson ed.) New Haven, 1972. >=20 > G. Posener: Litterature et politique dans l`Egypte de la XIIe > dynastie. Paris, 1956. >=20 > G. Posener: L`enseignement loyaliste. Geneve, 1976. >=20 > Further references to this topic might be available from the > bibliography of these works. As primer sources of the ancient > Egyptien written records you will certainly find references to works > like "J.H. Breasted: Ancient Records of Egypt I-V. New York, 1962.", > the several volumes of "Urkunden des agyptischen Alterums", or even > "J.B.Pritchard: Ancient Near Eastern texts Relating to the Old > Testament. Princeton, 1955.(abbr. ANET)" > Good work with them! > Regards, >=20 > Zoltan Horvath > ELTE University, Budapest > Egyptological Department ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:57:58 -0500 (EST) From: Luxor3@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL books on Egyptian literature Many, many thanks! I have a couple of the titles you list and I certainly appreciate the rest. Lynn Kordus ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:50:33 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Kudos to Matt! Hi, Matt, I just visited your Ptahhotep site, and upon this first cursory glance, I think it is wonderful. You have done a lovely job. We ought to link your page up with the AEL pages. Mark Wilson, what say you? Yours, Graham (I am referring to myself by last name from now on, because on other lists I read, there are more than one Geoff now, and it saves people confusion.) sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Lynette" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Quick question - nefer Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:04:13 +1100 I am only new to this list and to the subject, so forgive me if I ask an obvious question I would like to know what the glyph for nfr, beauty, actually symbolises. Lynette F. Wattters Love is the Law. Love under will. lunetta@mountains.net.au ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 21:18:11 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar p8-p9 To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar p8-p9 Dear followers of p.Westcar, I've updated the commentary for page 8. The vocabulary for page 8 is complete (as mentioned earlier). Geoff has given me the transliteration for page 9 and this is now uploaded also. I haven't made the vocab. for page 9 but this should happen in the very near future. Those with dictionaries should be able to press ahead. We have just finished p8, line 12. Thanks to all participants for the stimulating discussion so far. Seeing how the more advanced members of the list work through a piece of text is, I think, most illuminating. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne, m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:19:19 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Kudos to Matt! On 8 Nov 97 at 11:50, Graham wrote: > Hi, Matt, > > I just visited your Ptahhotep site, and upon this first cursory glance, I > think it is wonderful. You have done a lovely job. We ought to link your > page up with the AEL pages. Mark Wilson, what say you? I say well done Matt! It's now linked in from the AEL main page. Regards, Mark. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:54:42 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Re: nefer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE> nefer Dear Lynette F. Wattters, Welcome. Hope I'm first on this one. Firstly, what it is:- nfr = F35 (in the Gardiner system) Described as a 'heart and windpipe'. The markings seen on on the lower object show it is a heart, not a stomach. Probably a sheep's heart from the musculature. The windpipe (trachea) may have originally been an oesophagus. Old Kingdom examples may show a double pair of lateral projections from the top of the windpipe, although this is simplified to one stroke in later examples. Secondly, what it means: There are several possibilities. As an emblem (a sign by itself - eg. an amulet, a vase, etc. ) it meant 'goodness' or 'beauty', but could also mean 'happiness, good fortune, youth' and similar ideas. References: Reading Egyptian Art, R. Wilkinson Ancient Egyptian Calligraphy, H.G. Fischer Hope this helps. Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au -------------------------------------- Date: 10/11/97 7:00 AM To: Michael Dyall-Smith From: Ancient Egyptian Language List I am only new to this list and to the subject, so forgive me if I ask an obvious question I would like to know what the glyph for nfr, beauty, actually symbolises. Lynette F. Wattters Love is the Law. Love under will. lunetta@mountains.net.au ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:44:52 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Quick question - nefer Hi, Lynette, > I would like to know what the glyph for nfr, beauty, actually symbolises. The hieroglyph is a picture of the heart of a bull connected to its windpipe. The meanings of the sound nfr are various: nfr "good/beautiful/perfect", nfr "extreme point" like the dividing point in the night, "midnight", nfr "lack/absence/nought". All of these concepts are likely to be separate words which happened to have the same sound. Yours, Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:37:55 -0500 (EST) From: MWhealton@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Ptahhotep - Papyrus Prisse Geoff, Mark, and everyone: First, my thanks to Geoff Graham and Mark Wilson for their encouragement. I'm afraid I blundered unknowingly into the text because when I first encountered Egyptian I fell in love with the stanza: m aA-ib xr rx-k...... dgw mdt nfrt r wAD iw gm.t(w).s m-a Hmwt Hr bnwt It seemed wise to a young undergrad and the phrase stuck with me, so I got back to it this past year. I did NOT know how hard the text is. But I did want to add some sort of positive content to the Web, and since many of these resources can only be found in very large university libraries, and since Glyph for Windows is available.... There you have it! I just put up glyph pages 6 through 9. The translation will follow slowly. Also, the hieratic for this text is quite beautiful. Does anyone know if it would be a copyright infringement if I scanned and posted it? I will start to contribute to the discussions on Westcar, Aten, and Weni once I get the glyphs done for Ptahhotep and finish reading Hoch so I know the post-Gardiner verb terminology. Regards, Matt ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:21:35 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL A Coptic Anecdote Hi, I said before that I might offer something for those interested in Coptic from time to time. I am not sure exactly how one could go about teaching Coptic on a listserve like this, so I am going to experiment with various things. This time, I am offering a brief anecdote from the Apothegmata Patrum "Tales of the Desert Fathers". It is very short, and possibly a little simplistic. I will try to explain what is going on so that people will have a taste of what the last stage of Egyptian sounded like. The transcription is based on that system I posted to the list some time back, and which Mark Wilson has so kindly put up on the AEL web page for your reference. Remember that {@} represents nothing more than a supralinear stroke above the following consonant. You will have to insert more of these "schwa"s in other places where the scribe did not write them, but it should be obvious where they go. I will give the entire story and then parse it for you afterwards: 1 apdiabolosSbtfhnouskEmanaggelosmpouoein 2 afouOnaheouannesnEuauOpecafnafceangpegabriElntautnnooutSarok 3 pecafdenafceanaucentautnnooukSakeouannesnEuanokgarntimpSaan 4 ntofdenteunouafratouOnhebol (Yes, it's only a four liner! And, Coptic did not put spaces between words.) ________________________________________________________________________ Here it goes: 1 a-p-diabolos S@bt-f h@n-ouskhEma @n-aggelos @m-p-ouoein "The devil transformed himself in an angelic costume of light." Notes: a- comes from ancient jrj "make/do". It is the conjugation base for the past tense and serves much like a helping verb to the main verb. p- "the" masculine singular. diabolos a Greek word, the subject of the sentence. S@bt the pre-prepositional form of the verb "transform/change". The verb (S@bt-) of this sentence is conjugated with the conjugation base and the noun {diabolos} as its subject. (pronounce it "sh@bt") -f comes from ancient =f. It is the third person singular masculine suffix pronoun "he/him/his". Here it is the object of the verb. By the time of Coptic, the sDm=f forms were dead, and the verbs all came from infinitives, so suffix pronouns are usually their objects. (pronounce it -@f) h@n- from the preposition Xnw "in/within/inside". ou- from w` "one", now it is the indefinite article "a/an". skhEma a Greek word, the object of the preposition. @n- from earlier m "in/as". This is the attributive construction. It is how Coptic made adjectival expressions since all adjectives had become nouns by this period. aggelos a Greek word, made into an adjective by the preoposition @n-, hence "angelic". @m- from earlier n.y "of". Coptic assimilated the sound of @n- to @m- in front of bilabial sounds like /p/. p- the (not translated in the English in this case). ouoein from earlier wbn "rise/shine", but now it means "light". (pronounce it "woyn") ________________________________________________________________________ 2 af-ouOnah e-oua @n-ne-snEu auO peca-f na-f ce an@g pe gabriEl "He appeared to one of the brothers and he said to him; "I am Gabriel @nt-au t@nnoout Saro-k (and) it is unto you that I have been sent." Notes: af- Conjugation base like a- above but with the pronoun =f attached to it. This means that the verb which is coming will be past tense and that "he" is the subject. ouOnah from earlier wnx "dress up/put on clothes or other attributes", now having the meaning of "reveal/appear". (pronounce "wo:nah") e- from earlier r "to/toward/at/against". Preposition. oua from earlier w` "one". @n- from earlier n.y "of". ne- from earlier n3- "the" plural. snEu from earlier sn.w "brothers". "Brothers" here means Christian "monks". auO from earlier r-w3H.w (don't ask why. It is weird but true.). It came to mean and. peca came from p3y-Dd "this thing which is said", and it came to mean "said". -f "he", in this case it is the subject of the secondary clause. na-f from earlier n=f "to him". ce from earlier Dd "saying", it is used as a quote mark for what was said. an@g from earlier jnk "I/it is I". The main form in Coptic is {anok}, but this is the pre-nominal form. pe from earlier p3y "this", like pw, it came to represent the verb to be though it was not a verb but a copula. It does not originate in pw because there are also {te}and {ne} for feminine and plural subjects. gabriEl a name "Gabriel", the angel of the Christian annunciation. @nt- from earlier nty "who/which/that", but in this case it marks the verb as a second tense or emphasizing form. The prepositional phrase is what is emphasized. au- conjugation base a- plus the third person plural pronoun =u "they". By using a generic "they" Coptic expressed the passive. t@nnoou from earlier dj-jnj.w "cause to bring/be brought" which came to mean "send". (pronounce "t@nnow") -t from earlier =j "me", but through a phonetic process which is difficult to explain at this juncture. Saro- from earlier xr "unto". -k from earlier =k "you". ________________________________________________________________________ 3 peca-f de na-f ce anau ce -nt-au-t@nnoou-k Sa-ke-oua @n-ne-snEu "But he said to him: "Look, you you must have been sent unto another one of the brothers, anok gar @n-ti-@mpSa an for, as for me, I am not worthy." Notes: peca-f "he said" de a Greek particle "but/and". na-f "to him". ce quote marker. anau from earlier j-nw "look/see" in the imperative. gar a Greek particle "for". @n- from earlier nj "not". It goes together with {an} at the end of the expression, kind of like French with "ne" and "pas". ti- present tense conugation base for "I". @mpSa from earlier *jm3x(?) "worthy". an end of the negation, from earlier jwn3. ________________________________________________________________________ 4 @ntof de n-te-unou af-@r-at-ouOnh ebol "And, as for him, then he disappeared." Notes: @ntof from earlier ntf "he/it is he". de Greek particle "but/and". n- from earlier m "in". te- "the" feminine. unou from earlier wnw.t "time/moment/hour". The expression {nteunou} came to mean "then". af- conjugation base for past with "he" as subject. @r- from earlier jrj "do/make". at- from earlier jwty "without/not". ouOnh from ealrier wnx "appear". ebol from earlier r-bnr "to the outside". The combination of {r-at-ouOnh-ebol} came to mean "disappear". Well, I hope that some of you will find this interesting and useful. Let me know if you want more Coptic, as last time no one made any comment at all. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ==============================================================================