From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:19:40 +0000 Subject: AEL Westcar P7, Lines 15-16 Moving straight on then... aHa.n Dd.n=sn "di=k mA=n sy mi.k n rx.wyn s-msy" Then they said "May you cause that we see her. Behold, we know how to cause to give birth." I've opted for a slightly different transliteration for s-msy than the one on the web page. Apparently, infinitives of many s-causative verbs derived from 3rd weak roots do not have the t ending, and this is one of them. See Hoch's grammar sections 89 and 170. aHa.n Dd.n=f n=sn "wDA.w!" So he said to them, "Go forth!". The interactive vocabulary for this page is at:- http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/texts/ael/westcar/P7VOCAB/P7FRMST.HTM Regards, Mark. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 06:55:40 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P7 vocab completed To: to AEL REGARDING West. P7 vocab completed Dear pWestcar-philes, The clickable (interactive) vocab for the entire (AEL) page 7 of pWestcar is now completed. Point your browsers to: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/texts/ael/westcar/P7VOCAB/P7FRMST.HTM The text in the latter part of page 7 is a fascinating description of child-birth. Being recently promoted to parenthood myself (16 month old son), I find the description quite vivid (well, perhaps not quite as vivid as the videos they show in ante-natal classes...). If you find any glitches in the vocab pages please let me know via the e-mail address at the bottom. Have fun, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 21:19:38 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P7, Lines 15 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL Westcar P7, Lines 15-16 I (MDS) would like to expand on Mark's excellent translation, and in so doing, have a couple of questions about the text. > aHa.n Dd.n=sn "di=k mA=n sy mi.k n rx.wyn s-msy" >Then they said "May you cause that we see her. My notes: aHa.n Dd.n=sn, a narrative past tense construction (Hoch #90) di=k, prospective verb form of the anomalous verb rdi, "may you cause..." mA=n, prospective verb form of anomalous verb mAA. Used as an object of the preceding verb, and acting as a result clause, "...that we shall see her." Question. The prospective form of mAA sometimes has an 'n' suffix, mAn, but this example doesn't. Is this because of the following suffix pronoun, n?? (ie. they are rolled together as a single n, or the scribe doesn't need to write two n's because it would be obvious to the reader). Mark's translation seems fine to me and close to the actual egyptian. A 'next level up' translation (in english) might be something like, "Will you let us see her?" This seems a very polite request. Presumably the type of language would reflect the social status of such musicians. Can someone comment on this? > mi.k n rx.wyn s-msy > Behold, we know how to cause to give birth." Notes: mi.k, the non-enclitic particle, "See (you)..." n, 3rd pers. plur. dependant pronoun (dep. pron. used after mk). rx.wyn, stative form of the verb, rx "to learn (how)". The verb ending, .wyn, gives this away. So, a past tense form, ie. "to know (how)", (see Hoch, #89). The stative form follows its subject (n, 'we'). s-msy, an interesting word. Acts as a nominal object to the preceding verb, as in the grammatically similar construct "See, we know it". Mark has translated the last word as "how to cause to give birth". He opts for an infinitive (which is a nominal form). Faulkner gives s-msy as 'deliver' (a child), so one could translate the statement as: "See, we know how to deliver (children)" Question: could s-msy be a true noun "delivery/childbirth" derived from the verb? ie., "See, we know (about) childbirth/delivery" > aHa.n Dd.n=f n=sn "wDA.w!" > So he said to them, "Go forth!". My notes: wDA.w, an imperative (ie. giving a command). This interpretation is mainly based on the syntax and context. It is a verb (wDA, to proceed, etc.). The verb stands alone; there is no subject or object (fairly common in commands, eg. "Eat, Drink, and be Merry, ....). It would be an appropriate response by the man to the question asked. The plural strokes, indicated in the transliteration by the .w suffix, denote the group of musicians being addressed, and is expected in a plural imperative. See Hoch, #205. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 15:40:43 UT From: "mark vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Papyrus Westcar P7, L17-20 I`ve finally got up enough courage to have a go at translating some lines from Westcar.As it is my first attempt, please don`t laugh too much , you might frighten me off ! Page 7 Line 17 aq pw iri.n=sn tp-m rd-Ddt They entered, in front of Reddjedet Page 7 Line 18 aHa.n xtm.n=sn a.t Hr=s Hna=s Then they closed off the room with her and themselves (inside) Page 7 Line 19 aHa.n rdi.n sy As.t xft Hr=s nb.t-Hw.t HA=s Hq.t Then Isis placed herself infront of her face, Nephthys behind her, Heqet Page 7 Line 20 Hr s-xAx msi.w.t was hastening the births Remember, be kind :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) Mark ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:43:50 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P7, Lines 15 On 1 Oct 97 at 21:19, Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > mi.k n rx.wyn s-msy > > Behold, we know how to cause to give birth." > > Notes: > n, 3rd pers. plur. dependant pronoun (dep. pron. used after mk). I think you meant to write 1st person there! ;-) > > aHa.n Dd.n=f n=sn "wDA.w!" > > So he said to them, "Go forth!". > > My notes: > wDA.w, an imperative (ie. giving a command). This interpretation is mainly > based on the syntax and context. It is a verb (wDA, to proceed, etc.). The > verb stands alone; there is no subject or object (fairly common in commands, > eg. "Eat, Drink, and be Merry, ....). It would be an appropriate response by > the man to the question asked. The plural strokes, indicated in the > transliteration by the .w suffix, denote the group of musicians being > addressed, and is expected in a plural imperative. See Hoch, #205. I guess that must be page 205, as my copy of Hoch only goes upto #200! Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 08:16:43 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P7, Lines 1 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL Westcar P7, Lines 15 Dear Mark, > I think you meant to write 1st person there! >I guess that must be page 205 Good to see you are keeping me on my toes. Correct on both counts. I realised sometime later I had got the 1st and 3rd person pronoun mixed. The Hoch reference is section 145 (on page 205 for my edition). Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne, Australia -------------------------------------- Date: 2/10/97 7:39 AM To: Michael Dyall-Smith From: Ancient Egyptian Language List On 1 Oct 97 at 21:19, Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > mi.k n rx.wyn s-msy > > Behold, we know how to cause to give birth." > > Notes: > n, 3rd pers. plur. dependant pronoun (dep. pron. used after mk). I think you meant to write 1st person there! ;-) > > aHa.n Dd.n=f n=sn "wDA.w!" > > So he said to them, "Go forth!". > > My notes: > wDA.w, an imperative (ie. giving a command). This interpretation is mainly > based on the syntax and context. It is a verb (wDA, to proceed, etc.). The > verb stands alone; there is no subject or object (fairly common in commands, > eg. "Eat, Drink, and be Merry, ....). It would be an appropriate response by > the man to the question asked. The plural strokes, indicated in the > transliteration by the .w suffix, denote the group of musicians being > addressed, and is expected in a plural imperative. See Hoch, #205. I guess that must be page 205, as my copy of Hoch only goes upto #200! Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by muwayf.unimelb.edu.au with SMTP;2 Oct 1997 07:37:41 +1100 Received: from punt-1.mail.demon.net (punt-1d.mail.demon.net) by muwayb.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (PMDF V5.1-8 #17781) with SMTP id <01IOBNLNF4A8001WUM@muwayb.ucs.unimelb.edu.au> for Michael_Dyall-Smith@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:37:33 +1000 Received: from rostau.demon.co.uk ([194.222.22.205]) by punt-1.mail.demon.net id aa0904423; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 21:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from rostau.demon.co.uk by rostau.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA875738632 ; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 21:43:52 +0100 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 21:43:50 +0000 From: Mark Wilson Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P7, Lines 15 Sender: Ancient Egyptian Language List To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Reply-to: Ancient Egyptian Language List Message-id: <875738623.094423.0@rostau.demon.co.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Comments: Authenticated sender is ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 21:03:42 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Papyrus Westcar P7, To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL Papyrus Westcar P7, L17-20 Dear Mark, Welcome and what a good effort! Your translation seems quite reasonable to me. I have a few queries to the list, mainly about the meaning of those prepositional phrases: Line 17, tp-m. Faulkner lists 'in front of; in the direction of', so perhaps the meaning is a bit flexible. Line 18, Hr=s Hna=s. What is going on here? I can understand the first prep. phrase (Hr=s) as "They closed the room UPON her", but how do you untangle the second (Hna=s)? The latter phrase would normally mean "together with her" or "and her". Mark's translation would seem to fit the bill but I'm not sure whether there are words left out by the scribe. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne, Australia -------------------------------------- Date: 2/10/97 7:25 AM To: Michael Dyall-Smith From: Ancient Egyptian Language List I`ve finally got up enough courage to have a go at translating some lines from Westcar.As it is my first attempt, please don`t laugh too much , you might frighten me off ! Page 7 Line 17 aq pw iri.n=sn tp-m rd-Ddt They entered, in front of Reddjedet Page 7 Line 18 aHa.n xtm.n=sn a.t Hr=s Hna=s Then they closed off the room with her and themselves (inside) Page 7 Line 19 aHa.n rdi.n sy As.t xft Hr=s nb.t-Hw.t HA=s Hq.t Then Isis placed herself infront of her face, Nephthys behind her, Heqet Page 7 Line 20 Hr s-xAx msi.w.t was hastening the births Remember, be kind :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) Mark ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by muwayf.unimelb.edu.au with SMTP;2 Oct 1997 07:25:32 +1100 Return-path: nsw-bit@classic.msn.com Received: from punt-1.mail.demon.net (punt-1d.mail.demon.net) by muwayb.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (PMDF V5.1-8 #17781) with SMTP id <01IOBN6KQRZ4001ZLX@muwayb.ucs.unimelb.edu.au> for Michael_Dyall-Smith@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:25:25 +1000 Received: from rostau.demon.co.uk ([194.222.22.205]) by punt-1.mail.demon.net id aa0904424; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 21:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from relay-6.mail.demon.net by rostau.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA875738460 ; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 21:41:00 +0100 Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk id 875728432:12:10356:0; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 18:53:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from upimsrgsmtp11.msn.com ([207.68.152.55]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0500895; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 18:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from upmajb09 - 204.95.110.82 by msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 08:43:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 15:40:43 +0000 (UT) From: mark vygus Subject: AEL Papyrus Westcar P7, L17-20 Sender: Ancient Egyptian Language List To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply-to: Ancient Egyptian Language List Message-id: ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:09:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Westcar: the next two births Hi, I am sorry I have not had time to be more attentive to your discussions here. I have been asked to produce a little more transliteration for the list so that people will have something to work with and compare to the glyphs at the site. We last left off at the end of the first birth. These births are very repetitive, so this should all seem familiar: De Buck, Page 85, line 2: Birth Two: rdj.jn sy 3s.t xft Hr=s nb.t-Hw.t H3=s Hq.t Hr s-xx msj.w.t Dd.jn 3s.t jmj=k s3H m X.t=s m rn=k pwy n.y s3H.w-r` w`r.jn Xrd pn tp `.wy=s m Xrd n.y mH w` rwD qs.w=f nxbt `.w.t=f (m nbw) `fn.t=f m xsbD m3` j`j.jn=sn sw S`d Xp3=f rdj Hr jfd.y m Db.t `H`.n mz3.n sy msj-xn.t r=f `H`.n Dd.n=s n.y-sw.t jrj.ty=fy n.y.t-sw.t m t3 pn r Dr=f wn.jn Xnmw Hr s-wD3 `.w.t=f Birth Three: rdj.jn sy 3s.t xft Hr=s nb.t-Hw.t H3=s Hq.t Hr s-x3x msj.w.t Dd.jn 3s.t jmj=k kkw m X.t=s m rn=k pwy n.y kkw w`r.jn Xrd pn tp `.wy=s m Xrd n.y mH w` rwD qs.w=f nxbt `.w.t=f m nbw `fn.t=f m xsbD m3` `H`.n mz3.n sy msj-xn.t r=f `H`.n Dd.n=s n.y-sw.t jrj.ty=fy n.y.t-sw.t m t3 pn r Dr=f j`j.jn=sn sw S`d Xp3=f rdj Hr jfd.y m Db.t The goddesses announce the results: prj.t pw jrj.n nTr.w s-msj.n=sn rd-Dd.t m p3-Xrd.w xmt `H`.n Dd.n=sn nDm jb=k r`-wsr m.k msj.w n=k Xrd.w xmt `H`.n Dd.n=f n=sn Hn.w.t=j ptr jrj.t=j n=Tn H3 dj=Tn p3- jt n p3y=Tn Xr.y-qnj jTj=Tn n=Tn r zwn.t tnm.w jwh.jn sw Xnmw m p3-jt Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:20:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P7, Lines 15 Hi, Mark and Mike, > > aHa.n Dd.n=sn "di=k mA=n sy mi.k n rx.wyn s-msy" > >Then they said "May you cause that we see her. Yes, "then they said, may you let us see her" > mA=n, prospective verb form of anomalous verb mAA. Used as an object > of the preceding verb, and acting as a result clause, > "...that we shall see her." > Question. The prospective form of mAA sometimes has > an 'n' suffix, mAn, but this example doesn't. Is this because of the > following > suffix pronoun, n?? (ie. they are rolled together as a single n, or the > scribe > doesn't need to write two n's because it would be obvious to the reader). The {n} that sometimes comes out in m33 is entirely optional, but it only can occur in a prospective. There can also be prospectives without it. The =n suffix might have some influecne on whether it is written or not too. > "Will you let us see her?" Very nice. > > mi.k n rx.wyn s-msy > > Behold, we know how to cause to give birth." "hey look, we know midwifery!" > s-msy, an interesting word. Acts as a nominal object to the preceding verb, > as in the grammatically similar construct "See, we know it". > Mark has translated the last word as "how to cause to give birth". He opts > for an infinitive (which is a nominal form). Faulkner gives s-msy as 'deliver' > (a child), so one could translate the statement as: > "See, we know how to deliver (children)" > Question: could s-msy be a true noun "delivery/childbirth" derived from the > verb? ie., "See, we know (about) childbirth/delivery" Yes, it very well could be. I opt for "midwifery" because it is causative. "Delivery" is fine too. > > aHa.n Dd.n=f n=sn "wDA.w!" > > So he said to them, "Go forth!". Maybe the verb wD3 is not as fixed as English "set forth". I would see it in this case as "come in!" One would have to find more examples of its use to determine whether it can have this meaning too, but I suspect it does. It is also quite homophonous with wD3 meaning "be sound/well/whole". That sounds a bit like a welcome too. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:28:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Papyrus Westcar P7, L17-20 Hi, Mark V., Thanks for participating. It is nice to see some new type-faces ;-)! > aq pw iri.n=sn tp-m rd-Ddt > > They entered, in front of Reddjedet Fine. To be more literal, one might say: What they did was enter before Reddjedet. > aHa.n xtm.n=sn a.t Hr=s Hna=s > > Then they closed off the room with her and themselves (inside) Very well done. This is a particularly hard one to render in nice English. Then they closed the room on (themselves) and her together. Any way about it, you have to put something in parentheses! > aHa.n rdi.n sy As.t xft Hr=s nb.t-Hw.t HA=s Hq.t > > Then Isis placed herself infront of her face, Nephthys behind her, Heqet > > Hr s-xAx msi.w.t > > was hastening the births That was perfect. Please do post again. Maybe others will get the nerve if more people do it. I would also love to hear some questions from people who do not feel comfortable with anything in the texts as we go along. You might get answers, and that might help you to read more Egyptian in the future. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ==============================================================================