Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:25:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P7, Lines 11-12 Hi, Mark, > spr pw iri.n=sn r pr ra-wsr > Then they arrived at per ra-wsr. Yes, basically. Literally, "What they did was arrive at the house of Ra-user." > gmi.n=sn sw aHa(.w), dAiw s-xdi(.w) > They found him standing with his loin-cloth ruffled. or "disshevled", "inside out", or "upsidedown". > In sxdi(.w), is the s the causative prefix, or just part of the root? It is the causative s-, I think. Yours, Geoff sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:15:57 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P7, L13-14 To: to AEL REGARDING West. P7, L13-14 Continuing where Mark left off. The scene: the gods come down (led by Khnum) and land in the house of Ra-user. Inside somewhere RdDdt is having a terrible time with triplets. MDS. wn.in=sn Hr mzA n=f mni.t=sn sSS.w.t . Then they were bringing to him their mnit (necklace) and sceptres/sistras Notes: a) Narrative verb form wn.in=sn, with 3rd pers. plur. suffix pron. '=sn' (they). b) next comes a preposition, Hr, which looks like it introduces an infinitive, mzA; so this would be a progressive tense ('upon bringing/presenting'). What about rendering it as: "Then they were about to present him with...." c) The two next nouns are a bit of a puzzle. The first is a mni.t necklace, sacred to Hathor. Is it singular or plural? I suspect singular, so "a mni.t necklace of theirs...". The next noun has no suffix pronoun, and looks like it is read 'sxm' rather than sSS.w.t. It is translated as either sceptre or sistrum; which are rather different things aren't they? The determinative gives no inkling. d) OK, what is the significance of the gifts? #000#aHa.n Dd.n=f n=sn ; " Hn.w.t=i, mi.Tn ,#000# Then he said to them: " Ladies, see, Notes: a) Narrative verb form, "Then he said to them..." b) Hn.w.t=i, is a polite form of address, in this case would be something like, "My ladies". c) mi.Tn, Is the 2nd person plural version of the more common particle, mk (see!). zi.t pw nty.t Hr mn=s(.t)! qsn msi(.t)=s !"#000# she is a woman who is suffering the pain of her labour! Notes: a) Nominal syntax, with 'pw' (he/she/it/they) interposed just after the first prosodic unit of the sentence (??). b) Hr mn=s.t, I have a slightly different transliteration to Geoff (I think) where the mn (to suffer) is the infinitive, followed by a pronoun (suffix, as direct genitive). "is suffering of herself" c) What about qsn as a noun, and so is the object of the verb mn, "suffering the pain..." d) msi.t=s "her birthing/labour" Comments! Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:35:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P7, L13-14 Hi, Mike, very nice work. > wn.in=sn Hr mzA n=f mni.t=sn sSS.w.t . > Then they were bringing to him their mnit (necklace) and sceptres/sistras Then they extended their menats and sistra to him. mz3 is like Arabic madda "stretch out/extend". It is not the same as "give/present" which would be expressed with rdj.t. The act is not that they offer these impliments as gifts, but that they are advertising that they are singers who could be employed to entertain for a small fee. Bards were the ancient preservers of cultural tradition, the ones who homogenized Egyptian culture from one region to the next by spreading traditional tales, as well as current events, being news reporters of sorts. They took stories and tales in their repertoires, and could entertain people while spreading the gossip of other regions in the country. Any wealthy person would be delighted to have them for nightly entertainment, inviting guests from the community to dinners where all could listen to their music and hear the latest from places they had not visited recently, or may never have visited at all. The idea is that these goddesses were in a disguise which was designed to make their sudden appearance on the seen not seem like some extraordinary event, but which was a normal social function whereby strangers might be admitted to a house to perform a service, even though they were not recognizable as part of the local community. And, if they just happen to know how to do other services besides singing, then so much the better for Rauser who is in this frantic state with a wife about to give birth. The objects which they extend are the tools of their trade. Egyptian can put a plural pronoun ending onto a singular noun and it was understood that the objects were plural. Hence, mnj.t=sn can mean, as you have suggested "a menat-collar of theirs" or "their menat-collars". A menat is not only a piece of jewelry but a musical instrument, because its beads were shaken in Hathoric rituals of appeasment of the goddess. The same is true of the sistrum, though it is only an instrument, a kind of rattle with pieces of metal which tintinabulated in a frame and sometimes having a sounding box. There were actually two kinds of sistrum: the sistrum proper sSS.t which was a hoop of metal mounted on a handle with serpent-shaped metal parts going through it; these slide back and forth in the frame; and the crotalum sxm, which was a sounding box mounted on top of a handle having a Hathoric cow-woman face the horns of which were coils of metal which bounced back and forth pounding on the sounding box. I suspect it sounded sort of springy like a Jew's harp or some such twinging sound. This text seems to have sxm written, but in many cases the two objects were written with the identical signs, and there was great confusion as to which instrument was which. I opted for sSS.t, but it might indeed be the sxm. This kind of sxm, however, is not the same as the "sekhem-scepter" which served as a kind of fly-swatter and was a symbol of authority. Sekhem-scepters were actually flat objects like modern fly swatters and not rounded batons, as one might expect. You can see wooden renditions of them in some Old Kingdom sculpture. I know a particularly good example in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, but cannot remember exactly whos statue it was. I would love to refer you to an illustration, but cannot. They were actually constructed of green papyrus reeds and consisted of a flat mat of reeds mounted onto a wooden handle with a papyrus umble as the transition from the handle to the flat part. > aHa.n Dd.n=f n=sn ; " Hn.w.t=i, mi.Tn , > Then he said to them: " Ladies, see, > zi.t pw nty.t Hr mn=s(.t)! qsn msi(.t)=s !" > she is a woman who is suffering the pain of her labour! Then he said to them; "My mistresses, look, it is the woman who is laboring! Her birthing is difficult!" Pw sentences do not always have to have the pw agree with any aforementioned person or noun. pw is like saying "it is". Here, I think that he means "there is a woman (here) who is experiencing pain" or some such. qsn is an adjective. Any adjective can be used in the nfr sw construction. That is to say adjective, noun/pronoun. Its translation is "noun is adjective." This means that qsn msj.t=s would be "her birth-giving is arduous/difficult/hard". I take it as adjective, noun, possessive pronoun. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:00:34 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Re: AEL West. P7, L13-14 At 06:15 PM 9/22/97 +1100, Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > REGARDING West. P7, L13-14 > What >about rendering it as: "Then they were about to present him with...." >c) The two next nouns are a bit of a puzzle. The first is a mni.t necklace, >sacred to Hathor. Is it singular or plural? I suspect singular, so "a mni.t >necklace of theirs...". The next noun has no suffix pronoun, and looks like it >is read 'sxm' rather than sSS.w.t. It is translated as either sceptre or >sistrum; which are rather different things aren't they? The determinative >gives no inkling. >d) OK, what is the significance of the gifts? I suspect that what the "gifts" are are the _menat_ (which is part of a counterpoise of the goddess on a necklace), which you rightly rendered as an emblem sacred to Hathor, and sistra (sSS,w.t) (which is how Faulkner's renders it). This is how Geoff seems to see it as well. This is it is your question, right? The necklace is singular, perhaps, or it could be offered by each lady musician to assist the woman in labor. Consider the situation: if the woman in question is suffering labor, then likely or not it is sistra being used/played or presented by the female musicians (not as gifts I would reckon, but as music and magical tools to assist in labor). The _menat_'s meaning is tied to fertility, and thereby to the birthing process. It is usually considered that Hathor oversaw the birth of children and the birthing process. so the gifts would likely be tied to supplication of Hathor in assisting the woman in labor, evidently to provide her "sacred assistance" and distraction to ease her labor pains. HTH. Katherine Griffis-Greenberg American Research Center in Egypt International Association of Egyptologists University of Alabama at Birmingham Special Studies ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:37:03 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL West. P7, L13-14 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL West. P7, L13-14 Thanks Geoff for your detailed response. Some comments. MDS. L13 > wn.in=sn Hr mzA n=f mni.t=sn sSS.w.t . The meaning of mzA was a bit of a guess as Faulkner lists a number of meanings. "Bring, present" are the first. The third meaning given is "extend (hand)". Geoff, this is where your knowledge of custom is so important. I thought they were giving presents! Now I'm sure I read somewhere that these travelling female dancers were also important as 'midwives'. Ah, "The psS-kf and the opening of the mouth ceremony" (Ann Macy Roth, JEA, vol 78, p140), where the word for a female dance troupe (xnrt) contains the sign, which Roth claims is probably the psS-kf knife, used to cut the cord. Do others believe this interpretation by Roth? If so, is there a possible reference to this aspect by their disguise as a troupe of entertainers, or are singers and dancers very different? Line 14 [Geoff] >Then he said to them; "My mistresses, look, it is the woman who is >laboring! Her birthing is difficult!" I am quite happy with this interpretation. Thanks again Geoff! Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:35:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P7, L13-14 Hi, Mike, > Now I'm sure I read somewhere that these travelling female dancers were also > important as 'midwives'. Ah, "The psS-kf and the opening of the mouth > ceremony" (Ann Macy Roth, JEA, vol 78, p140), where the word for a female > dance troupe (xnrt) contains the sign, which Roth claims is probably the > psS-kf knife, used to cut the cord. Do others believe this interpretation by > Roth? If so, is there a possible reference to this aspect by their disguise as > a troupe of entertainers, or are singers and dancers very different? I think that the association is most likely made on the basis of this text, but I could be wrong. Singers and dancers were often the one and the same. As Katherine has pointed out, there definitely is an association between Hathor and birth. Hathor features prominently in the Divine Birth Cycle scenes of Amenophis III at Luxor, and the Seven Hathors were wont to make visits upon the births of new infants according to various stories. They were like the seven fairies in the Sleeping Beauty tale, since they would fortell the future destiny of the newborn. This is the function performed by Meskhenet in our tale. As for Ann Roth's interesting hypotheses, they have met with mixed success in the Egyptological community. I think she may be onto something, but I am not sure just how much. I know of people who disagree with her strongly, but I am not really prepared to make any assertions of my own in this regard. I know her, and I think very highly of her. I am definitely interested in the work which she does. Some of her hypotheses are not able to be proved one way or another with the evidence that is available. I read her work with interest but I maintain an awareness of the hypothetical nature of certain of her suggestions. It is good to search for deeper meanings in Egyptian culture, but it is only after textual evidence can be produced to support a supposition that it is definitively proved. I am sure that Dr. Roth is well aware of this as well, so I do not feel that I am in any form of disagreement with her, since she has never stated that she believes she has entirely answered the questions which she addresses. My only hesitation about reading too much into the function of the singing women with relation to midwifery is that we need more examples of their participation at births in order to say that there is a real connection. I am only aware of this text, but maybe there are others which Katherine, or some others might know. My impression is that the main function of the transformation which the goddesses and Khnum made was so that they could be unrecognizeable as deities, and the bard function was a good disguise for them to take if they wanted not to be feared as strangers. Furthermore, I think that the association with Hathoric implements is especially pertinent to their arrival at the birth of a King rather than just any person, since Hathor was a dynastic goddess associated with queenhood and the appeasment of the temper of the king in his function of the sun god. I only wonder why Hathor herself was not included in the entourage. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:15:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Tokapu@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Hathor and the singers Friends, One of my favorite Hathor images (I will look for the source -- I've had a copy of it around for years, source lost) is of her holding a systrum rattle (sekhem rattle?) with a figure of the child Horus standing in place of the strings and rattles. This might be a reference to the musicians you speak of, in their function as participants in the birthing ceremonies. Perhaps Hathor is not specifically present in the group of bards because the woman giving birth is herself the "Hathor representative," in Hathor's role as Home of Horus. The function of most such ritual is incorporate the divine presence in some form, and the mystery of birth held high esteem in their world. Ramona Louise Wheeler http://members.aol.com/walkle01.htm ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:43:18 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: AEL Music/Musicians/ Instruments, Hathor and the Life Cycle (WAS Re: AEL West. P7, L13-14) Cc: Geoffrey Graham Hello AEL Subscribers-- I wanted to follow up Geoff's comments with an expansion of his and my own here, and knowing that it is not exactly "on point", I am separating it directly from the translation side of it. At 08:35 PM 9/23/97 -0400, Geoff Graham wrote: >I think that the association is most likely made on the basis of this >text, but I could be wrong. Singers and dancers were often the one and >the same. As Katherine has pointed out, there definitely is an >association between Hathor and birth. Hathor features prominently in the >Divine Birth Cycle scenes of Amenophis III at Luxor, and the Seven Hathors >were wont to make visits upon the births of new infants according to >various stories. They were like the seven fairies in the Sleeping Beauty >tale, since they would fortell the future destiny of the newborn. This is >the function performed by Meskhenet in our tale. Hathor was represented at childbirth in some form, particularly at the divine birth of kings, because of her special relationship as the "mother" of Horus, the original sun-king, and is called upon to "soften" the heart and give wisdom to Pharaoh throughout the king's life -- usually done by priestesses of Hathor who also serve as musicians. Perhaps it could be seen in this fashion that the goddesses/musicians here should be seen more as representatives of Hathor, and "doing her will". Lise Manniche, in her book _Music and Musicians in Ancient Egypt_ (British Museum Press, 1991), indicates that music was also a purview of Hathor, and in the Story of Sinuhe, it is the royal princesses, shaking _menat_ and sistra, that, as Sinuhe is first presented to the king, first direct praises at the king, then sing praises to Hathor, and finally, cajole the king into pardoning Sinuhe and elevating him to a high position in his old age, which is what the king does. Though not directly stated, it is possible that in music, Hathor "manifests" herself and her will through the ecstasy of music and song., and the king is somewhat influenced by such musical "advice". >My only hesitation about reading too much into the function of the singing >women with relation to midwifery is that we need more examples of their >participation at births in order to say that there is a real connection. >I am only aware of this text, but maybe there are others which Katherine, >or some others might know. My impression is that the main function of the >transformation which the goddesses and Khnum made was so that they could >be unrecognizeable as deities, and the bard function was a good disguise >for them to take if they wanted not to be feared as strangers. I agree with Geoff's assessment here as to the "accessibility" of the musicians to the house, but it goes deeper than that. Music as a distraction to a woman in childbirth is seen many times in the connection between fertility and sexuality -- particularly in the advent of the seven Hathors and Bes at the birth of Royal children to make music and ease the pain of childbirth. Here in Westcar, the goddesses and Khnum as musicians are serving in that function as well, symbolically, I think. I am not aware that music and musicians (divine or not) directly participate in the childbirth process, but that their purpose is to provide distraction during the birthing process, and possibly, after the birth, provide both protection of the goddess to the mother and newborn through song, and serve as "ecstatics" pronouncing musical predictions on the fate of the newborn. >Furthermore, I think that the association with Hathoric implements is >especially pertinent to their arrival at the birth of a King rather than >just any person, since Hathor was a dynastic goddess associated with >queenhood and the appeasment of the temper of the king in his function of >the sun god. I only wonder why Hathor herself was not included in the >entourage. I think the point was that by the use of the menat and sistra, she was. It is the combination of these pieces that may give us a clue to the "divine nature" of what they are doing. Manniche points out, when talking about the use of the sistrum in worship in temples: "The temple songstresses would often perform in groups of three or more, singing a hymn in praise of the god; they probably shook the sistra to divide the phrases of recitation. The sound of the sistrum could be complemented by the rattling of a heavy necklace made of rows of faience beads (_menat_), usually carried by the women in their free hand rather than worn. The necklace included a metal keyhole-shaped element called a counterpoise [usually with a representation of Hathor on it -K], which provided a useful handle with which to carry the necklace. The use of the _menat_ in such context does not in itself turn it into a musical instrument, and _menats_ are generally excluded from catalogues of musical instruments." (_Music and Musicians_, p. 63). The menat is tied with sexuality and fertility, according to Alison Roberts in _Hathor Rising: The Serpent Power of Ancient Egypt_ (Northgate, 1995), specifically in relating to the king as a binding element between Hathor and the king as a "possessor of attraction" -- showing both a nurturing and erotic imagery in the relationship between the goddess and the king. In this way, Roberts and Manniche seem to indicate that the beginning of life (and later, in the funereal renewal of life), the menat is important element in creating "attraction" (in as many ways as that seems to be interpreted, I think) between the goddess and her intended subject. Roberts refers to the menat as "like a noose, binds the goddess and the youthful ruler in the _Per-Wer_ shrine..." and shows a representation of this in the scene from the Tomb of Seti I, now in the Louvre. (pp. 46-47). Geoff also said: >This kind of sxm, however, is not the same as the "sekhem-scepter" which >served as a kind of fly-swatter and was a symbol of authority. >Sekhem-scepters were actually flat objects like modern fly swatters and >not rounded batons, as one might expect. You can see wooden renditions of >them in some Old Kingdom sculpture. I know a particularly good example in >the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, but cannot remember exactly >whos statue it was. I would love to refer you to an illustration, but >cannot. They were actually constructed of green papyrus reeds and >consisted of a flat mat of reeds mounted onto a wooden handle with a >papyrus umble as the transition from the handle to the flat part. This instrument also fits in with the sexual/fertility/life imagery that was associated with Hathor as well, BTW, and all three items are shown in a funeral representation of the Feast of Hathor in TT82, the Tomb of Amenemhet, Dynasty 18, where the musicians (alternately described as the musicians of the Great Ennead at Karnak, the musicians of Hathor at Dendera, and the musicians of Amun at Karnak) chant the following to Amenemhet: "I offer to you (Amenemhet) the menat, the arched sistrum, and the naos-sistrum [there are two types of sistra here, with different sexual/fertility functions, according to Manniche-K] belonging to Amun, the Ennead, and to Hathor in all her names that they may grant you a fair and long-lasting life". Manniche further indicates of this scene: "Another intriguing detail is the curious object held by No. 3 [musician] in her left hand. It seems to have no musical function whatever, but perhaps it is related in some way to two other mysterious objects shaped like flywhisks shown in another musical context... " (p. 64) (representation of this scene is included on this page) (this statement refers to....) [in describing the Tomb of Mereruka, Vizier to King Teti, Dynasty 6, Saqqara - K] "...Mereruka's wife entertains him (as they are about to retire) by playing her harp, while he waves his fly-whisk...It has been suggested that the representation symbolises the consummation of marriage between Mereruka and his spouse. It is possible to carry the interpretation further and say that it may refer to the underlying sexual forces of the couple, which will enable them to be reborn in the hereafter." (p. 115, _Music and Musicians_, added since her questioned interpretation on p. 64. Representation of this scene is also shown on p. 115). So, I think you can see that the function of music/musicians, and at times, certain ritual musical and non-musical instruments in a scene go far beyond the "entertainment value" that the Westcar scene alone seems to indicate. What is shown is a divine attendance of birth, that all forces of the objects are aimed to providing a full blessed life for the children to be born, and more importantly, that the goddesses and Khnum (using Geoff's "Sleeping Beauty" analogy) will show that these births are favored amongst the gods for very important reasons, for all forms of assurances of long life, strength, and wisdom are being used ritualistically in this scene through the use of the menat, sistrum, and the sxm (perhaps "life-power", conscience, or wisdom symbol, Geoff?). That they are offered by divine beings in disguise makes it even more important. HTH. Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg American Research Center in Egypt International Association of Egyptologists University of Alabama at Birmingham Special Studies http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/PEOPLE2.HTML ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:36:51 +0200 From: Marc DIEBOLD To: journal@concentric.net, AEL Subject: AEL To GAIL (books for beginners) Bonjour, 1/ Egyptian language, easy lessons in Egyptian Hierogliphics Budge (1910) isbn 0486-21394-3 dover $6.95 +easy grammar +many examples with word to word translation +4 texts in Egyptian Hierogliphics with word to word translation +sign list for $6.95 don't miss it! 2/ The handbook of Egyptian Hierogliphics Mercer 1926 Hippocrene books isbn 087052-102-0 $16.95 +grammar +texts without translation +sign list 3/An Egyptian Hierogliphics reading book for beginners Budge isbn 0486-27486-1 dover $12.95 +many texts in Egyptian Hierogliphics +some translations +complete transliteration (old system) +dictionnary of ALL the Egyptian Hierogliphics words used in the texts. After having become familiar with the 2 first books above, read your Gardiner, but stop at lesson 20 and ignore the following chapters about verbs and details. With book 1/ you'll quickly understand how Egyptian Hierogliphics works. Good work. Amicales salutations / kind regards / mit freundlichen Gruessen, Marc. /////// ( o o ) ----oOOo-----U-----oOOo---------------------------- Marc DIEBOLD Universit. Louis Pasteur Tel: 03.88.416.149 4 rue Blaise Pascal Fax: 03.88.416.060 67070 STRASBOURG FRANCE Email: mailto:diebold@cournot.u-strasbg.fr Fr : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/homepage.htm US : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/us.htm --------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:57:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Re: Music/Musicians/ Instruments, Hathor and the Life Cycle (WAS Re: AEL West. P7, L13-14) Hi, Katherine, Thanks for the detailed response. I am glad you had time to write it. As for "sekhem", yes, I think it is a life force. It can be a kind of soul. Its meaning is something like "control". Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== From: Anthony Conley To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL To GAIL (books for beginners) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:09:03 -0400 Another good book for beginners is "Let the Ancestors Speak". I found it at Amazon.com. It has a very thorough explanation of most grammatical functions. AC CADIEAC aconley@asaenet.org ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:34:53 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL WESTCAR VOCAB To: to AEL REGARDING WESTCAR VOCAB I've managed to get ahead of the discussion and have updated the Westcar vocab on the web site, so far I've done up to line 20 of page 7. I hope this will encourage some others to have a go at the next line or two. We are currently about to do Page 7,line 15. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:00:00 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Interactive vocabulary/pWes To: to AEL REGARDING Interactive vocabulary/pWestcar To new members, Mark Wilson has pointed out that we now have quite a few new members who may be unfamiliar with the pWestcar web site ("Story of the miracles which occurred during the reign of Khufu"), which can be seen listed at the AEL web site. It has grown to a fair size now and has a lot of material that is useful to people who want to follow the translation. I have just updated the vocabulary, which is both in simple list form, and in an interactive format where you click on a hieroglyph within the westcar text and go straight to the word. For anyone beginning the study of this text, this should be extremely useful, particularly where you don't have the standard dictionaries at hand (eg. Faulkner). The interactive vocabulary requires a web browser that handles frames, but most of the good browsers do that now anyway. Give it a try! Point to:- http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/texts/ael/westcar/P7VOCAB/P7FRMST.HTM The page opens in 3 sections. Wait until all have loaded. The middle frame contains a line of hieroglyphic text, and the bottom frame contains the vocabulary (or the commentary!). We are currently about to dissect line 15, so if you click on line 15 the line of text will change. When the picture of the text is complete,try clicking on any of the signs and see what happens in the vocabulary below. The appropriate word in the vocab. should spring up to the top of the bottom frame. When you have checked out the words in that line, you may wish to look at the commentary for that or other lines. So click on 'commentary', found just under the hieroglyphic text,and the bottom frame will change to the commentary page (a digest of all the posts discussing the westcar text). You can switch back to the vocab any time by clicking on a hieroglyph in the text. If you find any glitches or problems please tell me and I will correct it. An annoying problem I find is getting rid of my cache files (browsers store old copies of web pages), and I seem to have to 'reload' several times before wiping out my cache copy and getting the new/updated pages from the remote site. New members to the site don't need to worry initially, but older members beware, keep on 'reloading'. Have fun!! Mike Dyall-Smith mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ==============================================================================