Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:38:49 +0200 From: "JOSEP ISERN VERDUM" <25955jiv@comb.es> To: Subject: AEL Grammatical question Hello all, What's the plural of Hb-sd (king's festival, festival sd, Jubil=E4umsfest des K=F6nigs), Hbw-sd ? or Hb-sd ? Best regards Josep Isern ============================================================================== From: "Nederhof M.J." To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Egyptian Reading Book by A.de Buck Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:56:01 +0200 > Does anyone know whether a key exists to the exercises. It would be a great > help even to know how to start reading the book as there are no > indications.?? Sasha Verma I am planning to put such a key on the web, some time. Right now, I have an electronic format for about two thirds of the texts in a revised form of the AELalight format, but regrettably, I won't have time in the coming period to adapt the necessary software to format the texts in a nice way for viewing through the web. As a temporary solution, let me make available the AELalight files. This is an ASCII format, so they can be read without too much difficulty, although it is admittedly not the optimal format for human consumption. The (temporary) link is: http://www.dfki.de/~nederhof/AEL/texts/ I hope this suffices until I can work on a better solution. Mark-Jan ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:24:05 -0700 Subject: AEL "Hetep" From: moondial@juno.com Hello, First off, I am new to the list. So, hello everyone. My interest in Egypt has been lifelong, but my study of their language has been within the past year or so, so it will become apparent that I am not the most fluent Egyptolinguist in the universe. I am currently researching the word "Hetep." The glyph shows a conical loaf of bread centered on a reed mat, and the general meaning seems to be "offering," "setteth," "peace," "to be content" ("sehetep" can be "to make content") and I have even read somewhere that it can mean seven (7), but I have only read that once on-line and you can't really trust on-line information always. Anyhow, I am trying to find if there is another meaning to it. Even if it was only used once to mean something else, this would be helpful in my researches. There have been names like "Ptah-Hetep," and part of my research is finding if this is basically saying "Ptah, the peaceful/content one," or "An offering unto Ptah," etc. I would appreciate any feedback from the group on their own findings of this word; even if you are repeating what I have already stated, at least I will have been validated. Lastly, I would pronounce this word "Hee - Tep," am I pronouncing it correctly? In advance, thank you! Sincerely, Rhiis ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:04:35 +0200 From: nederhof@dfki.de To: Fabio.Vassallo@nokia.com Cc: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Allen - chapt. 16 > At page 192, line 17, there's a kinda litte typo: > "15.1.2" ===> "15.1-2" > If you agree, Mark-Jan, you can add it to your page. Done. Thanks for reporting the typo. > Exercise 16.1: > Can vocative _nTrw_ refer to _my_ instead of _mA_? See end of paragraph 16.3: > "A vocative [...] can come before or after the imperative". In principle, yes, but this is a moot point. The Egyptians didn't have an end-of-sentence marker, so where sentences begin or end is impossible to say. > Exercise 16.13: > Can _xnms_ be considered the imperative of the 4-lit verb instead of a noun > (and so translated "Be my friend")? > The determinative used (Y1) could suggest it (see dictionary part at page > 465). > Can such an imperative have a direct genitive? This seems unlikely. I expect an imperative xnms would take a direct object (xnms wj), or =j would appear after a preposition. > In the exercise 16.23 a "strange" glyph is used: the sign for _nmtj_ is a > sort of combination of G7 and G7a (G7* in Gardiner's list). > Both Allen (page 461) and HWB1 (page 1215) have only G7b (G7** in Gardiner's > list) for "Nemti". > I don't find this sign: neither in Gardiner's list nor in the extended > library nor in Moeller's Palaeographie. > I just wonder where this sign comes from (the passage comes from Sethe's > "Urkunden der 18. Dynastie", as I can see in references at page 416). Combinations of signs are rather frequent, and often don't appear in sign lists. Mark-Jan ============================================================================== From: "sasha verma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Grammatical question Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:49:33 +0200 Plural is Hbw-sd ( according to Hannig -reich an Sed Festen) which indicates it is the plural German Fest Sing and plural is Festen so that Hbw-sd is the correct plural. Sasha Verma ============================================================================== From: "Susan g" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Allen - chapt. 16 Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:39:31 +0200 greetings to all of you. I read, but dont follow the translations the way I should, hope to have time for it all soon. >In the exercise 16.23 a "strange" glyph is used: the sign for _nmtj_ is a >sort of combination of G7 and G7a (G7* in Gardiner's list). >Both Allen (page 461) and HWB1 (page 1215) have only G7b (G7** in Gardiner's >list) for "Nemti". Anti, Horus, Geb, mAAt maybe? some threads of thought the King en personne in a boat or on a pedestal? susan ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 07:26:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Marianne Luban To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL "Hetep" -------Original Message------- From: moondial@juno.com Sent: 05/19/03 01:24 PM To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL "Hetep" I am currently researching the word "Hetep." The glyph shows a conical loaf of bread centered on a reed mat, and the general meaning seems to be "offering," "setteth," "peace," "to be content" ("sehetep" can be "to make content") and I have even read somewhere that it can mean seven (7), but I have only read that once on-line and you can't really trust on-line information always. Anyhow, I am trying to find if there is another meaning to it. Even if it was only used once to mean something else, this would be helpful in my researches. There have been names like "Ptah-Hetep," and part of my research is finding if this is basically saying "Ptah, the peaceful/content one," or "An offering unto Ptah," etc. I would appreciate any feedback from the group on their own findings of this word; even if you are repeating what I have already stated, at least I will have been validated. Lastly, I would pronounce this word "Hee -Tep," am I pronouncing it correctly? In advance, thank you! ****Ptah-Hetep seems to mean "Ptah is content". As for vocalization, perhaps at one time the /p/ was pronounced in Htp, but the classic authors wrote "Imhotep" as "Amouthes" and Amenhotep seems to be an element in "Palmanothes", so one can form certain conclusions. Marianne Luban http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 04:04:06 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Jerome Colburn Subject: Re: AEL "Hetep" >-------Original Message------- >From: moondial@juno.com >Sent: 05/19/03 01:24 PM >To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk >Subject: AEL "Hetep" > >I am currently researching the word "Hetep." [...] >There have been names like "Ptah-Hetep," and part of my research is >finding if this is basically saying "Ptah, the peaceful/content one," or >"An offering unto Ptah," etc. >I would appreciate any feedback from the group on their own findings of >this word; even if you are repeating what I have already stated, at least >I will have been validated. In names having the structure +Htp, the Htp is in the form known as stative (e.g., Allen) or old perfective (e.g., Gardiner). A verb in this form tends to express a static condition or quality, and (unlike most Egyptian verb forms) it comes after its subject. So ptH-Htp means "Ptah is content/at peace/propitiated." (I do not recall whether there are any such names with goddesses, but if there were, the ending .ti would be attached to Htp.) In the famous name Imhotep, the root is in a different form: the infinitive. The name is iy-m-Htp, "(one who has) come in peace" or "welcome". >Lastly, I would pronounce this word "Hee -Tep," am I pronouncing it >correctly? In advance, thank you! At 07:26 AM 5/24/03 -0500, Marianne Luban wrote: >****Ptah-Hetep seems to mean "Ptah is content". As for >vocalization, perhaps at one time the /p/ was pronounced >in Htp, but the classic authors wrote "Imhotep" as "Amouthes" >and Amenhotep seems to be an element in "Palmanothes", so >one can form certain conclusions. (Strictly speaking that's not a vocalization issue but a dropped consonant issue. The -p wasn't always dropped; the name of the month named after the deified 18th Dynasty vizier imn-Htp appears as "Phamenoth" in Greek, but the 18th dynasty kings' name imn-Htp also appears as "Amenophis.") As well as we can reconstruct, the masculine singular of the stative of three-consonant verbs had a short stressed "ah" vowel between the first and second consonants of the root, no vowel between the second and third consonants, and a short unstressed vowel after the third consonant. In Greek times and later in Coptic that short unstressed final vowel was dropped and the first consonant changed to a short open "o" (sort of like "aw" in English). In the Alexandria dialect of Coptic especially, the two consonants together at the end are written with a short unstressed vowel between them to help pronunciation. That's why such names are transcribed in our books with "-hotep" at the end. (Always put the stress on the "o" when pronouncing these names.) Gardiner keeps the original short unstressed final vowel and so transcribes such names with "-hotpe". For the infinitive, in Greek times and in Coptic there was a long stressed "o" (like "oh" in English) between the first and second consonants and a short unstressed vowel between the second and third. Again, this is transcribed as "-hotep", but with a macron over the "o" if the transcriber is that careful. So: ptah-HAWT-ep, but im-HO-tep. (In iy-m-Htp another Coptic rule seems to have been applied: long stressed "o" becomes long stressed "u" after a nasal, the H not being substantial enough of a consonant to prevent the change. That's why it's transcribed "Imouthes" in Greek, and it should be pronounced, rather, as im-HOO-tep.) The "e" in representations of Egyptian words and names goes back ultimately to the epsilon with which a short unstressed vowel in Coptic was written. We use it (1) to make the consonantal skeletons of words pronounceable in the (usual) cases where we don't have a clue as to how the word was vocalized in Egyptian or (2) when we know that the word is unstressed, as in the first element of most compound and sentence names. It should be a short "e" sound as in "bed" in English, never long as in "meter". ********************************** * Jerome Colburn * jcolburn@soltec.net * im nfr mDw pn m bAH mryw mDw-nTr * Today's Egyptian date at http://www.soltec.net/~jcolburn ********************************** ============================================================================== From: "sasha verma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL "Hetep" Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 10:59:12 +0200 It could also mean Ptah is satisfied/pacified. Sasha Verma ==============================================================================