Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:49:56 +0200
From: Marc DIEBOLD <diebold@cournot.u-strasbg.fr>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL Egyptian Literature

-- 
Bonjour,

I think it's not off the subject, because many have begun with Budges books,
like myself.
Budge's work is outdated now, but this means nothing to a beginner, who isn't
working
on scientific papers.
For all the current translations, Budges dictionnary will do.
But we should thank Dover Publications, who prints Budges books, because they
are
old and there is nothing to pay to the author.

Amicales salutations / kind regards / mit freundlichen Gruessen,

Marc.

          ///////
         (  o o  )
----oOOo-----U-----oOOo----------------------------
Marc DIEBOLD               Universit. Louis Pasteur
Tel: 03.88.416.149         4 rue Blaise Pascal
Fax: 03.88.416.060         67070 STRASBOURG FRANCE
Email: mailto:diebold@cournot.u-strasbg.fr
Fr   : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/homepage.htm
US   : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/us.htm
---------------------------------------------------
==============================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:58:52 +1100
From: Michael Dyall-Smith <Michael_Dyall-Smith@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: AEL Westcar P7, L1-2
To: to AEL <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>

  REGARDING           Westcar P7, L1-2

   OK, here is my attempt at the beginning of page 7. The scene is heaven, and
RdDdt needs some divine help with her triplets. M.D-S.

line 1:
Dd.in Hm n.y ra nb sAXbw n As.t nb.t-Hw.t msi-xn.t Hq.t Xnm.w

a) Narrative verb form, Dd-in=f, "Then X said,...."
a) Subject is the nominal construct, Hm n.y ra nb sAXbw, "The majesty of Ra,
Lord of sAXbw"
b) dative _n_, 'to, for', indicates indirect object of verb. In this case
there are multiple indirect objects,ie. a series of gods,  "Ra said *to* X, Y,
Z...."
c) Ra speaks to a host of goddesses (first) and one god. All (from my limited
knowledge of the mythologies) are relevant gods in birth.
   As.t, Isis
   nb.t-Hw.t, Nephthys
   msxnt = 'Meskhenet' the goddess of birth
   Hqt, frog goddess
   xnm, Khnum

My translation: Then the Majesty of Ra, Lord of Sakhebu, said to Isis,
Nephthys, Meskhenet, Heket and Khnum, "...."

line 2:
Hwy-A SAs=Tn s-msy=Tn rd-Dd.t m pA-Xrd.w xmt nty m X.t=s#000#

a) Hwy-A, The non-encl.part. Hwy, joined to the enclit. part. A. This compound
particle expresses a (polite) wish/desire. (See Gr.#119 part8, bottom of p96).
b) SAs, intrans. verb, travel, go. The form of the verb would probably be a
prospective (?), "Please will you (plural) go ..." So, why not just use a
plain prospective (without an initial particle)? Is it just an intensifier?
c) s-msy, Faulkner gives as 'deliver', obviously a 's-' causative derived from
msi, to give birth, bear. The verb form? Another prospective?? The _y_ ending
would fit this.
d) oops, looks like there should be an _nty_ added to Geoffs transcription.
The relative pronoun, _nty_, introduces a relative clause when the antecedent
is specific, which in this case is "the three children".

My translation: "Please will you go that you may deliver RdDdt of the 3
children which are in her body"

Looking forward to comments and discussion....

Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith
Melbourne
mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au




==============================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:35:15 -0700
From: James Doyle <egypt@primenet.com>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL NakhtAmun's title

Stephen Fryer wrote:

> On p.62 of the summer 1997 issue of KMT magazine there is a photograph
>
> of the interior of the tomb of NakhtAmun (probably at Deir el Medina).
>
> To the left of the doorway is an inscription which reads:
>
> di nsw Htp nb mAat it nTr.w di=f anx <w>D<A> s<nb> n kA n TAt m st
> mAat
> nxtimn mAa xrw
>
> This is pretty straightforward (the nb mAat referred to by the way is
> Ptah) except for Nakht Amun's title "TAt m st mAat."  The st mAat
> refers
> to the tombs in the Valley of Kings, etc. - "in the Place of Truth."
>
> However the term TAt is a puzzle.  It obviously isn't "vizier."  It is
>
> spelled G47-Y1-X1-Z1.  It isn't in Faulkner - does anyone have any
> idea
> what it is?  (It should probably come out to something like "Scribe in
>
> the Place of Truth")
>
> --
> Stephen Fryer
> Lund Computer Services
>
> **************************************************
> The more answers I find, the more questions I have
> **************************************************



-- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

G47-Y1-X1-Z1 means Chisel-bearer in the Place of Truth.

Ref:
"A Community of Workmen at Thebes in the Ramesside Period"
By: Jaroslav Cerny; IFAO 1973
pp:48

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"A Dictionary of Late Egyptian" in 4 volumes plus index
By: Leonard H. Lesko, Editor
B.C. Scribe Publications 1982
Volume IV, pp 105 (t3w)

Hope this will be of some help.

Regards,

James M. Doyle



+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Necropoli di Tebe
A Library of Ancient Egyptian History
(A Private Collection)
James M. Doyle
egypt@primenet.com
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=


==============================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:47:46 -0700
From: Aldous Tyler <journal@concentric.net>
To: Aegyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
Subject: AEL Budge

Marc DIEBOLD wrote: "Budge's work is outdated now, but this means
nothing to a beginer, who isn't working on scientific papers." and
"...Budge's dictionary will do."

Thank you from the bottom of my heart, that is THE piece of information
I have been searching for for years.  Fear of the information being
badly outdated kept me from starting my studies of hierogyphics earlier
using Budge's text on the study.

Please post an excerp from his letter on the AEL home page.  You would
not believe how valuable that information was.  I have been interested
in Egyptoology for over 20 years, since I was a young teenager.  I have
only recently invested in the roughly $70 US Egyptian Grammer textbook
and seriously begun this study.  I will probably never write a formal
paper on the language, I simply wish to be able to read the poetic texts
in the original language and to be able to read pictures of the wall
inscriptions without relaying on a translator.
Thank you again,
Gail Cloyd
==============================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:57:51 -0400
From: Guenter Schulz <GuenterSchulz@compuserve.com>
Subject: AEL NakhtAmun's title
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>


Dear Stephen,

there is a possibility I found in the dictionary

Rainer Hannig
Grosses Handwoerterbuch aegyptisch - deutsch
p. 945

t3y-md3t   - with the translation    "engraver", "relief sculptor"

There are some more entries in the dictionary, with meanings quite close =
to
the one mentioned above.

Such a translation seems reasonable to me because the text has its origin=

in Deir Medine.

Cheers !

Elisabeth
==============================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:09:55 +1100
From: Michael Dyall-Smith <Michael_Dyall-Smith@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: AEL Westc. P7, L5-8.
To: to AEL <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>

  REGARDING           Westc. P7, L5-8.

More of my ramblings. I don't like to hog the limelight. Please, someone else
have a go. I must admit that having Geoff's transliteration, along with
Faulkner's dictionary, makes it not too difficult. M.D-S.

Westcar AEL Page 7
rest of line 5:
nty r iri.t iAt twy mnx.t
"... and who will exercise this potent office..."
Notes: 
a) a relative clause introduced by the relative pronoun, nty, "who,which".
Refers to a specific antecedent, "the 3 children".
b) this clause is repeats a phrase used previously (AEL P5, L19).
c) r iri.t, is the 'r' of futurity, followed by the infinitive.
line 6:
m tA pn r Dr=f
"... in this entire land."
Notes: an idiomatic phrase. Literally, 'in this land, to its end.'

line 7:
qdi=sn rA.w-pr=Tn, s-DfAy(?)=sn xAw.w.t=Tn,#000#
"They will build your temples, They will endow your altars,
Notes:
a) I take the bare sDm=f verbs as prospective forms.
b) Question: what is the flying duck (G41) sign doing in s-DfAy? A
determinative?

line 8: 
 s-wAD=sn wDH.w=Tn, s-aAi=sn Htp.w-nTr=Tn 
"They will richly provide your offering tables, They will increase/enlarge
your gods-offerings."
Notes: 
a) more strings of (?) sentences, all describing the benefits the children
will bring to the gods. So Ra is really BRIBING them to go and help RdDdt!!
b) All the sentences have a similar structure: beginning with a prospective
verb form, then the 3rd pl. suffix pronoun, then a noun followed by a suffix
pronoun (2nd person pl.)

Mike Dyall-Smith
Melbourne

==============================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:41:42 -0700
From: Stephen Fryer <sfryer@prcn.org>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL NakhtAmun's title

James Doyle wrote:

> G47-Y1-X1-Z1 means Chisel-bearer in the Place of Truth.
> 
> Ref:
> "A Community of Workmen at Thebes in the Ramesside Period"
> By: Jaroslav Cerny; IFAO 1973
> pp:48
> 
> "A Dictionary of Late Egyptian" in 4 volumes plus index
> By: Leonard H. Lesko, Editor
> B.C. Scribe Publications 1982
> Volume IV, pp 105 (t3w)
> 
> Hope this will be of some help.

Thanks for this.  I wish I had access to Cerny's book - I'd be very
interested in how the translation was arrived at.

-- 
Stephen Fryer
Lund Computer Services

**************************************************
The more answers I find, the more questions I have
**************************************************
==============================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:30:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Graham <geoffrey.graham@yale.edu>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P7, L1-2

Hi, Mike,

As usual, it take me a while to make time to answer.

> Dd.in Hm n.y ra nb sAXbw n As.t nb.t-Hw.t msi-xn.t Hq.t Xnm.w

> My translation: Then the Majesty of Ra, Lord of Sakhebu, said to Isis,
> Nephthys, Meskhenet, Heket and Khnum, "...."

Fine.

> Hwy-A SAs=Tn s-msy=Tn rd-Dd.t m pA-Xrd.w xmt nty m X.t=s#000#

> My translation: "Please will you go that you may deliver RdDdt of the 3
> children which are in her body"

Fine.

I might have done it: Then the Majesty of Re, Lord of Sachebu said to
Isis, Nephthys, Meskhenet, Heqet, and Khnum; "Would that you might travel 
in order to deliver Reddjedet of the three children who are in her womb."
Of course this is approximately the same as you have said.  The Dd.jn=f
puts the statement in relationship to what had come before, so "then"
might be appropriate, and then I am just being a little more literal about
Hwy-3 and playing with the vocabulary in a couple of other instances.

Yours, Geoff
Sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu

==============================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:35:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Graham <geoffrey.graham@yale.edu>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL Westc. P7, L5-8.

Hi, moving right along....

> nty r iri.t iAt twy mnx.t
> "... and who will exercise this potent office..."

Fine.

> m tA pn r Dr=f
> "... in this entire land."

Fine.

> qdi=sn rA.w-pr=Tn, s-DfAy(?)=sn xAw.w.t=Tn,#000#
> "They will build your temples, They will endow your altars,

I would let this continue as part of the same sentence:

That they might build your temples, that they might suppy your altars,

>  s-wAD=sn wDH.w=Tn, s-aAi=sn Htp.w-nTr=Tn 
> "They will richly provide your offering tables, They will increase/enlarge
> your gods-offerings."

that they might cause your libations to become luxuriant, and that they
might increase your divine appeasments.

Good job.

Geoff
sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu

==============================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:32:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
From: Kasia Szpakowska <kasia@HUMnet.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Re: AEL Budge
Cc: Aldous Tyler <journal@concentric.net>

Hi!

Hmmm, you probably bought Gardiner's grammar. Not that it helps you now,
but there is a less expensive, new grammar out by James Hoch. There is also
a grammar which is geared ONLY for reading monuments, from my
understanding, by Zauzich. It was originally in German, but has been
translated into English. It is very inexpensive (I saw a paperback version
of it which I should have bought at the time, for around $20 or less).
Faulkner's excellent Middle Egyptian Dictionary is about $40 I think.

Ciao!
--Kasia

>Marc DIEBOLD wrote: "Budge's work is outdated now, but this means
>nothing to a beginer, who isn't working on scientific papers." and
>"...Budge's dictionary will do."
>
>Thank you from the bottom of my heart, that is THE piece of information
>I have been searching for for years.  Fear of the information being
>badly outdated kept me from starting my studies of hierogyphics earlier
>using Budge's text on the study.
>
>Please post an excerp from his letter on the AEL home page.  You would
>not believe how valuable that information was.  I have been interested
>in Egyptoology for over 20 years, since I was a young teenager.  I have
>only recently invested in the roughly $70 US Egyptian Grammer textbook
>and seriously begun this study.  I will probably never write a formal
>paper on the language, I simply wish to be able to read the poetic texts
>in the original language and to be able to read pictures of the wall
>inscriptions without relaying on a translator.
>Thank you again,
>Gail Cloyd


*******************************************
Kasia Szpakowska, Grad Student
Near Eastern Languages & Cultures: Egyptology, UCLA
& Malcolm J. Jarrett, "I'm Spartacus Games"
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/egyptology/KasiaFolder/Kasia.html


==============================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:29:16 +0200
From: Marc DIEBOLD <diebold@cournot.u-strasbg.fr>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL Budge

Kasia Szpakowska wrote:
> 
> Faulkner's excellent Middle Egyptian Dictionary is about $40 I think.
> 

-- 
Bonjour,

Faulkner is not so good for a beginner.
Hierogliphics are hand written and not easy to read.
There are not enough entries, and only the commonest writing has been selected.

On the other hand, Budges dict. shows quite evry possibility of writing a word!
This will confirm that the beginner has found the right word, because he is
unable to distinguish different words from a different form of writing the same
word.
The outdated mode of spelling is often closer to the way a beginner would read
it.
Example: ht (thing) can be easily found in Budge because the first sign is an h,
but in Hanning you have to know first that it is nowadays spelled iht and that
you have to seach on the i pages! No beginner would guess that! Other examples
could be found with words beginning with ymy-r-

I first begun my translations with faulkner, and I can remember that it was
often difficult to find a word. But when I got Budges dict., I found very easily
each word. Today I work with Hanning's dict. because I'm no more a beginner and
speak currently german too.

Amicales salutations / kind regards / mit freundlichen Gruessen,

Marc.

          ///////
         (  o o  )
----oOOo-----U-----oOOo----------------------------
Marc DIEBOLD               Universit. Louis Pasteur
Tel: 03.88.416.149         4 rue Blaise Pascal
Fax: 03.88.416.060         67070 STRASBOURG FRANCE
Email: mailto:diebold@cournot.u-strasbg.fr
Fr   : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/homepage.htm
US   : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/us.htm
---------------------------------------------------
==============================================================================

From: "Mark Wilson" <weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk>
To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:33:41 +0000
Subject: AEL Westcar P7, Lines 9-10

Continuing from where Mike left off, I'll have a go at lines 9 & 10.

wDA pw iri.n nn (n.y.w) nTr.w, iri.n=sn xpr.w=sn m xni.y.w.t 
Then These gods set forth, making their forms as xni.y.w.t

Xnm.w Hna=sn Xr.y qni
Khnum with them, in a group(?)

Hmmm, I seem to have run into problems here. Where am I going wrong? 
(Apart from not knowing any Egyptian ;-))

Who or what is xni.y.w.t? From the determinatives it looks like a 
female being given to traveling in some pluralistic capacity.

Regards,
--
Mark Wilson
weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk
http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/
==============================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:45:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Graham <geoffrey.graham@yale.edu>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P7, Lines 9-10

Hi, Mark,

Good start.

> wDA pw iri.n nn (n.y.w) nTr.w, iri.n=sn xpr.w=sn m xni.y.w.t 
> Then These gods set forth, making their forms as xni.y.w.t

xnj.y.w.t are female itinerant musicians.  They were like bards
apparently.  Their instruments were usually percussion (hence the sistra
and menat collars to come).

> Xnm.w Hna=sn Xr.y qni
> Khnum with them, in a group(?)

Xr.y means "bearing" and qnj is a "litter/carrying chair/basket".  "with
Khnum as their porter (i.e. bearing their load)".

Yours, Geoff Graham
sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu

==============================================================================

From: "Leo Bores, MD" <labores@getnet.com>
To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:17:11 +0000
Subject: AEL lurker

> Continuing from where Mike left off, I'll have a go at lines 9 & 10.
> 
> wDA pw iri.n nn (n.y.w) nTr.w, iri.n=sn xpr.w=sn m xni.y.w.t 
> Then These gods set forth, making their forms as xni.y.w.t
> 
> Xnm.w Hna=sn Xr.y qni
> Khnum with them, in a group(?)

I'm just a lurker here but can anyone point me to a treatise that can 
explain the code used in the above or do I need to install a special 
font or is it that easy?

Thanks,

Leo
===

Leo D. Bores, MD
8049 N. 85th Way
Scottsdale,AZ 85258
VOICE:602-998-1984/FAX:602-998-1552
==============================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:26:56 +1100
From: Michael Dyall-Smith <Michael_Dyall-Smith@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: AEL lurker
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>

        Reply to:   RE>AEL lurker

Dear Leo Bores, 
   Glad to have you lurking and a good question to start off with (as it is
one I can readily answer !). 
  At present we can't write hieroglyphic transliterations (ie. phonetic
descriptions) with our standard keyboard characters. Many of the symbols used
are rather odd characters used in phonetics (the linguistic branch devoted to
the sounds of words).  So a system has been developed where normal keyboard
characters do duty for the authentic symbols used to transliterate
hieroglyphic texts. Eg. the dotted h (a strong h sound) is written (capital)
H. 
  In addition to the transliteration symbols, the hieroglyphs themselves have
been coded, using as a starting point the system of Gardiner,eg. a seated
scribe is A1, etc. 
  This means you can communicate transcriptions (including any necessary
hieroglyphs, such as determinatives) over the internet using the standard
keyboard characters. 
  The prime moving force in this standardisation is the CCER (hey! three
cheers!), and an excellent description of the whole system is given at their
website, masterfully run by Hans van den Berg: 
  http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/codage/codage.htm 

Now for the complications:
  a) the actual symbols used for transliteration (ie. the ones you see in
egyptological publications) are a collection of phonetic symbols from quite a
few years ago. The current International Phonetic Alphabet has changed
considerably but the signs used in egyptology are frozen.
  b) some people don't like the keyboard characters used to represent the
transliteration characters, as they feel that there are better keyboard
characters (ie. look closer to the transliteration characters). Geoffrey
Graham on this list will use 3 instead of A for the vulture sign (first sign
of the egyptian 'alphabet').
  
If you drag your way through the westcar material at the web site, you will
pick all this up pretty quickly. 

Best wishes, and keep the questions coming!!!
Mike Dyall-Smith
Melbourne
mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au

--------------------------------------
Date: 20/9/97 3:43 AM
To: Michael Dyall-Smith
From: Ancient Egyptian Language List
> Continuing from where Mike left off, I'll have a go at lines 9 & 10.
> 
> wDA pw iri.n nn (n.y.w) nTr.w, iri.n=sn xpr.w=sn m xni.y.w.t 
> Then These gods set forth, making their forms as xni.y.w.t
> 
> Xnm.w Hna=sn Xr.y qni
> Khnum with them, in a group(?)

I'm just a lurker here but can anyone point me to a treatise that can 
explain the code used in the above or do I need to install a special 
font or is it that easy?

Thanks,

Leo
===

Leo D. Bores, MD
8049 N. 85th Way
Scottsdale,AZ 85258
VOICE:602-998-1984/FAX:602-998-1552

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==============================================================================

From: "Mark Wilson" <weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk>
To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:08:49 +0000
Subject: AEL Correspondence courses

Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned, to whom responses and 
inquiries should be addressed.

*************************************

The Oriental Institute Adult Education Program is offering two non-credit
correspondence courses for Fall 1997.  To register or for more information,
please contact the Oriental Institute Education Office.  Call (773) 702-9507 or
email adult_ed@memphis-orinst.uchicago.edu

PYRAMIDS-BY-MAIL
Beginning Monday, Oct. 27, 1997, and continuing for 16 weeks
Instructor: Frank Yurco, Egyptologist

	This correspondence class will explore the history of pyramid-building in
ancient Egypt and Nubia and the role of pyramids in religious and economic
life.  The instructor will provide audio-tapes of his on-campus lectures,
supplemented by assigned textbook readings, visual materials, and translations
of primary sources.  Brief assignments will allow you to demonstrate your
understanding of the course material.  Students can keep the set of eight tapes
for their personal library.  Tuition: $195 for Oriental Institute members, $215
for nonmembers.
  Required text: Edwards, I.E.S. The Pyramids of Ancient Egypt. New York:
Viking Penguin, 1986.  This book, available in paperback, can be ordered
through the Seminary Co-op Bookstore, 5757 S. University Ave., Chicago IL
60637.  Call (800) 777-1456 or email books@semcoop.com 

HIEROGLYPHS-BY-MAIL: PART 2
Beginning Saturday, Nov. 1, 1997, and continuing for 15 weeks.
Instructor: Steve Vinson, PhD, Research Associate at the Oriental Institute

	This course, a continuation of the Oriental Institute's Hieroglyphs-by-Mail:
Part 1, will continue to focus on the types of inscriptions that are frequently
encountered on museum objects or in ancient Egyptian tomb paintings and other
monuments.  Lessons will introduce students to somewhat longer and more
challenging texts than have been encountered previously, including passages
from religious texts such as the Book of the Dead, which are frequently found
on funerary stelae or on tomb walls. 
	  Prerequisites for registration are completion of Hieroglyphs By Mail: Part
1, or another introductory course in Middle Egyptian.  Tuition: $145 for
Oriental Institute members, $165 for nonmembers.
	Required texts:
	Gardiner, A.  Egyptian Grammar. Oxford: Griffith Institute, Ashmolean Museum,
1957.
	Faulkner, R.A.  A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. Oxford: Griffith
Institute, Ashmolean Museum, 1964.
  These books are available at The Suq, the Oriental Institute gift shop.  Call
(773) 702-9509 or email d-browning1@uchicago.edu

For information about joining the Oriental Institute, please contact the
Membership Office.  Call (773) 702-1677 or email adult-ed@memphis-orinst.uchicago.edu
==============================================================================

From: "Mark Wilson" <weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk>
To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:00:59 +0000
Subject: AEL Westcar P7, Lines 11-12

Let's see if I can do any better with the next couple of lines.

spr pw iri.n=sn r pr ra-wsr
Then they arrived at per ra-wsr.

gmi.n=sn sw aHa(.w), dAiw s-xdi(.w)
They found him standing with his loin-cloth ruffled.

In sxdi(.w), is the s the causative prefix, or just part of the root?

(For those new to the list, you can get the hieroglyphs for the 
 Westcar text via the AEL homepage. Click on "Khufu and the magician" 
 to get to the Westcar main page.)

Regards,
--
Mark Wilson
weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk
http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/
==============================================================================

Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:51:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Graham <geoffrey.graham@yale.edu>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL Tranliteration systems

Hello, 

Thank you Mike for the website information for those who have access to
the web.  Meanwhile, I will type up the equivalence chart for those of you
who do not: (Variants used by people who refuse to use charcters which
would indicate vowels are indicated after the Manuel de Codage charaters
in parentheses. When more than one symbol is curretly in use, I have
included the variants.)

ascii___________descripton______________phonetic value____________________
A (or 3) 	{double-apostrophe}	Unknown, possibly a glottal stop
					Or some liquid sound such as /l/ or 
					/R/ (uvular /r/)

i (or j)	{apostrophe-dotted-i}	Unknown, probably either /'/
					(glottal stop) or /y/, or both
					depending on the word (for the
					sake of being able to pronounce 
					your transliterations and have them
					understood by collegues, 
					it is best to just treat it as /y/)

y		{y}			/y/

a (or < or `)	{inverted-apostrophe}	/`/ the voiced pharyngial
					fricative, the `ayin and `ayn of 
					Hebrew and Arabic

w		{w}			/w/

b		{b}			/b/ or /v/

p		{p}			/p/

f		{f}			/f/

m		{m}			/m/

n		{n}			/n/

r		{r}			/r/ (a tap like in Italian)

h		{h}			/h/

H		{dotted-h}		Pharyngial h, Hebrew Heth and
					Arabic Ha	

x		{contact-lens-h}	voiceless uvular fricative, like
					German {ch} in "ach"

X		{underscore-h}		voiceless velar fricative, like
					German {ch} in "ich"

z		{z} or {s}		probably original like {th} in
					"thing", but was assimilated to 
					/s/ by the Middle Kingdom
					(early scholars believed it had
					been /z/ but this is now 
					no longer the prevalent view)

s		{s} or {accute-s}	/s/

S		{hachek-s} ("esh")	like {sh} in "she"

q		{q} or {dotted-k}	voiceless uvular stop like Hebrew
					quf and Arabic qaf

k		{k}			/k/

g		{g}			possibly /g/

t		{t}			/t/

T		{underscore-t}		like {ch} in "church"

d		{d}			possibly /d/ but more likely
					really emphatic /t/ like Hebrew
					Tav and Arabic Ta

D		{underscore-d}		possibly like {j} in "judge" but
					more lilely an voiceless emphatic 
					version of this sound

Egyptologists when reading transliterations out loud insert neutral vowels
between consonants where necessary, and those who are unable to pronounce
the Afroasiatic sounds represented by certain characters do the best they
can with them.  Some people pronounce {A} and {a} as /a/ but it is best if
you can learn not to confuse these sounds with vowels if possible.  The
various {h}'s are also problematic for some people.  Try to practice them.
Unfortunatly, it is very difficult to indicate exact pronunciations in the
printed media, so you might want to ask a native speaker of Arabic for
some help.

Yours, Geoff Graham
sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu

==============================================================================