Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 20:43:05 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West P6. L17 To: to AEL REGARDING West P6. L17 I'll have a go at the translitation on line 17 - 18: wa.w m nn hrw(.w) xpr wn-in RdDd.t "One of these days (it) happened that RdDd.t..." Notes: a) the .w after the wa seems to be full writing of wa ('one'). b) xpr. Is it the infinitive or the stative? Hr Sni.t=s qsn mss=s "was suffering painfully in herself; thus she gave birth." Notes: a) Hr + infinitive (Sni.t), so a progressive manner. b) mss=s. I will guess a second tense form. Comments please. Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 09:22:30 -0500 From: Saida To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL West. P2, L18 Redux > Stephen Fryer wrote: > > > > Faulkner guesses > > > that b3g here means "sight" - though with a question mark - the eye > > > determinative(?) following it is a puzzle. > > > > > > I have a feeling that there is some reference here from the Pyramid > > > texts or offin texts that we are missing. If we had some idea of the > > > allusion we might have a chance of making sense out of it. > > > > I checked the Coffin Texts. There is no place where Hbs bAg occurs. > > However in Spell 237 (Vol.3, p.307), one of the sources uses the eye > > determinative after bAg (translated as "languid one" in the CT >index). As to "Hbs bg-t", I came across another refence to all of the same things mentioned in the pWestcar P2, L18 (or is it another line? I just replied to the subject header of the quoted post)-- in Budge's "The Egyptian Book of the Dead", page 66. It is from the papyrus of Ani and reads: Dd.t xft spr r sbxt sxft. In Iwsr To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: West. P2, L18 Redux I wrote: > Budge goes so far as to say > in his dictionary (page 96a) that "iggiit-Hbsit-b3g" is actually the > name of the pylon or gateway! Although he seems to say on the previous > page that "igiit" or "iggiit" is some sort of garment, having > determinant as such. So Djedi is possibly saying, for some reason, >that > he hopes the soul of Hardedef will have an easy time finding this > gateway. Maybe there is some sort of joke here that we can't >fathom??? Er...probably not! Between this and looking into something we are discussing on the OsirisList, I am starting to study the Book of the Dead like some do the Kabbalah! All I had to do was turn the page to 68 and suddenly I came upon NUMEROUS mentions of this "Hbs b3g" business. This is in an Appendix taken from Naville, Todtenbuch Bd 1, bl.161,162. By way of explanation I should mention that the deceased had to pass through a number of "Arits" or gateways in the Kingdom of Osiris. At one time these forts or strongholds or gates were thought to be seven in number and, at other times the Egyptians believed their number was ten, fourteen, sixten or even twenty-one! Each Arit was provided with a doorkeeper and a herald who interviewed the visitor and inquired his name. No soul could hope to gain admission unless it was able to repeat the names of the doorkeeper and watcher and herald and to repeat a formula which would convince them of its good faith. Now in the Todtenbuch I mentioned is a text of speeches of the deceased at Gates XI-XXI. This lengthy text refers to a female somebody or perhaps several females. Over and over it says; "iw-s xr sip n Hbs b3g3" or "she is holding an inquisition of the bandaged feeble one". At one point it also says "iw-s xr sip-f (n) Hbs P3-in sb3xt mHt t3wt--imt xn tpH nb-s, Hbs rn-s, imnt qm3mw-s..." "She is holding an inquisition of the bandages of Pa-in... Pylon the twentieth--(she who) is within the cavern of her lord, "Clother" is her name, hiding her creations..." Marianne Luban > Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 07:44:49 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Redux To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL West. P2, L18 Redux Just to give some easy references to Marianne's comment: B of D, Spell 146, Seventh portal of Osiris For those who have Faulkners book of the translation, he gives: p136: "'Shroud-which-veils-the-limp-one;Mourner-who-wishes-to-hide-the-body' is your name." *Where 'limp-one' is _Hbs-bgA_. B of D, Spell CXLV, VII, 26 If you have Budge (the old printing) this is p228 of volume II. Except for the eye determinative (compared to the limp-armed man determinative), the Westcar and BD passages seem similar. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:35:14 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL West P6. L17 >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Dyall-Smith writes: Michael> REGARDING West P6. L17 I'll have a go at the Michael> translitation on line 17 - 18: Michael> wa.w m nn hrw(.w) xpr wn-in RdDd.t "One of these days Michael> (it) happened that RdDd.t..." Notes> Michael> a) the .w after the wa seems to be full writing of wa Michael> ('one'). b) xpr. Is it the infinitive or the stative? You can also cut like this : wa m nn n hrw xpr.w / wn.in ... (You find elsewere in the text : xr m-xt mSrw xpr iwt pw ir.n=f xr m-xt tA HD 2 n hrw xpr SAs pw ir.n pA Hry-pr xr m-xt mSrw xpr iwt pw ir.n pA nDs xr m-xt pA hrw 7 xpr wDA pw ir.n nswt-bity and in 'tA HD', HD is clearly an old perfective, so the following xpr is probably one. A pity we don't have some feminine form before xpr there) But your interpretation is interesting ; however, if xpr where an auxiliary here, I would expect it to be a sDm.n=f ; (e.g. : pr.n fqA.n=f Xry-Hbd Hry-tp DADA-m-anx m bw nb nfr, where pr.n is a rare auxiliary) however, since wn.in is already a narrative form, I doubt you can find something like that. You would have *xpr.n rdDt Hr Snt=s Michael> Hr Sni.t=s qsn mss=s "was suffering painfully in Michael> herself; thus she gave birth." Notes> Michael> a) Hr + infinitive (Sni.t), so a progressive manner. b) Michael> mss=s. I will guess a second tense form. You are right, mss=s is a nominal form ; "thus she gave birth" is doubtful because it would require a prospective (if the consequence were stressed) or a sequential form (either wn.in=s ..., or ms.n=s) Well, now we have a nominal form without a circumstantial complement; so, it's not used to stress the complement that isn't there :-) Knowing that the nominal form is just that --- nominal ---, and can be translated "the-fact-that-she-gives-birth", how would you translate the sentence ? regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 5, rue Beranger 92240 Malakoff tel 01 48 70 37 13 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:08:32 -0400 (EDT) From: To: Michael Dyall-Smith cc: to AEL Subject: Re: AEL West P6. L17 Michael: Take a look at pWestcar X, 3-4, where you see the phrase qsn ms.s used again with respect to her travail. The writing of the second word is different from the occurrence in IX,22, but it seems clear that qsn is understood to be the verb and ms.s a nominal construct: Her bearing is painful. Try it on for size. -- Gerry Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University (SUNY) Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:26:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Westcar's First Birthing Episode Hello, Mike, I am sorry it takes me so long to get back sometimes. We are beginning a semester here, and I have had little time. Let me at least acknowledge your fine work. Serge and Gerry have been responding to you quite well already, but I will recap. Pardon me if I seem not to have noticed that others have already made these same points. > wa.w m nn hrw(.w) xpr wn-in RdDd.t > "One of these days (it) happened that RdDd.t..." w` m nn (n.y)* hrw(.w)** xpr(.w)*** One of these days came to pass, *Often Egyptians fluctuated as to the writing of the n.y after nn because nn was felt to have the n in it already. **must be plural ***stative > Hr Sni.t=s qsn mss=s > "was suffering painfully in herself; thus she gave birth." wn.jn* rd-Dd.t Hr Snj.t=s** qsn mss=s*** and then Reddjedet was in her labor, and her birthing was difficult. *In this case wnn is the main verb and not a helping verb. **Snj.t is the infinitive and hence a noun. ***One expects the infinitive, but seems to be getting a nominal form of sorts. I might as well put out some of the next bit too. Watch for stylistic features of the text. Notice we get yet another change of venu, and the text seems to switch back and forth between the divine and profane worlds with mythological interactions between the two. Also after this section we get two more repeats of the entire birth episode with only minor alterations related to the individuality of the children. Look carefully at their names and see if you can distinguish anything familiar from Egyptian history in them. [In heaven above] Dd.jn Hm n.y r` nb s3Xbw n 3s.t nb.t-Hw.t msj-xn.t Hq.t Xnm.w; "Hwy-3 S3s=Tn s-msj=Tn rd-Dd.t m p3-Xrd.w xmt m X.t=s, nty(.w)* r jrj.t j3.t twy** mnx.t *Should be grammatically plural. **An archaism, look at Old Egyptian paradigms. m t3 pn r Dr=f, qdj=sn r3.w-pr=Tn*, *plural ending goes on first element in direct-genitive compounds. s-Df3=sn x3w.w.t=Tn, s-w3D=sn wDH.w=Tn, s-`3j=sn Htp.w-nTr=Tn!" *plural ending goes on first element in direct-genitive compounds. wD3 pw jrj.n nn (n.y.w) nTr.w, jrj.n=sn xpr.w=sn m xnj.y.w.t,* *i.e. disguised themselves thus. Xnm.w Hn`=sn Xr.y qnj. In case you are interested in parallels in other Egyptian sources, check out the speach of Amun at the beginning of the Divine Birth Cycles of Hatshepsut in her Deir el-Bahri temple and of Amenophis III in his Luxor Temple. You can see Eberhard Otto's _Die Geburt des Gottkoenigs_ in Aegyptologische Abhandlungen 10, or pages 119-121 of Joseph Kaster's _The Literature and Mythology of Ancient Egypt_. You can also find the Ptolemaic version of this cycle in Francois Daumas's _Les mammisis des temples egyptiens_. [Back on earth again] spr pw jrj.n=sn r pr r`-wsr, gmj.n=sn sw `H`(.w), d3jw s-xdj(.w). wn.jn=sn Hr mz3 n=f mnj.t=sn sSS.w.t. `H`.n Dd.n=f n=sn; "Hn.w.t=j, mj.Tn, zj.t pw nty.t Hr mns(.t)*! *should be feminine noun on Faulkner p. 110 qsn msj(.t)=s*!" *we expect an infinitive, but no {t} was written. `H`.n Dd.n=sn; "dj=k m3=n sy. mj.k n rx.wyn s-msj(.t)." *we expect an infinitive, but no {t} was written. `H`.n Dd.n=f n=sn; "wD3.w!" `q pw jrj.n=sn tp-m rd-Dd.t. `H`.n xtm.n=sn `.t Hr=s Hn`=s. [Birth of the first son] `H`.n rdj.n sy 3s.t xft Hr=s, nb.t-Hw.t H3=s, Hq.t Hr s-x3x msj.w.t. `H`.n Dd.n 3s.t; "jmj=k wsr m X.t=s, m rn=k pwy* n.y wsr-r=f!" *An archaism, look at Old Egyptian paradigms. w`r.jn Xrd pn tp `.wy=s m Xrd n.y mH w`, rwD qs.w=f, nxbt* `.w.t=f m nbw, *Hapax legomenon. `fn.t=f m xzbD m3`. j`j.jn=sn sw, S`d(.w) Xp3=f, rdj Hr jfd.y m Db.t. `H`.n mz3.n sy msj-xn.t r=f. `H`.n Dd.n=s; "n.y-sw.t jrj.ty=fy n.y.t-sw.t* *n.y-sw.t is a compound, so when it is made into an abstract concept, the feminine {t} attaches to the first element rather than the second, producing n.y.*t*-sw.t. However, honorific transposition causes the scribe to write the sacred word "n.y-sw.t" first and then supply the additional elements at the end. This same thing sometimes happens in s-nTr "incense", where the {nTr} sign is written first because of its sacredness and the other elemenst follow. m t3 pn r Dr=f!" Xnm.w Hr s-wD3 H`.w=f. Once again, if you are interested in parallels with the divine birth cycles, have a look at the reliefs of Hatshepsut and Amenophis III. (If anyone knows commonly available books with photos or line drawings of these, please let us know.) Largely the same cast of divine characters participate in the births of these kings. While we have no known divine birth cycles from earlier than the Eighteenth Dynasty, Papyrus Westcar is a kind of confirmation that the mythology of such had already been well developed by the end of the Middle Kingdom. I do know of one 11th dynasty relief fragment from the Temple of Tod (see F. Bisson de la Roque _Tod 1934 a 1936_, p. 101, fig. 54), reign of Seankhkare-Montuhotep III, which could possibly relate to such cycles because it shows the infant king seeted in the lap of a god (not a goddess, and this can be verified by the detail of the plumed armor and the belt of the Shendjyt kilt which the figure wears), probably Montu in this case. My suggestion is that it represents the recognition of the newly born king by his divine father as in the divine birth cycle scenes of Hatshepsut and Amenophis III. Other fragments from this temple also circumstantially point to there having been a birth cycle here: p. 93., fig. 46, shows Khnum coming before Montu n the same fashion as he comes before Amun in the later birth cycles; p. 95, fig. 49 shows one of the souls of Hierakonpolis performing the henu-rite; another of the small fragments in fig. 54 shows the king suckling from a goddess. Enjoy! Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:14:39 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL new texts available I have just put the hieroglyphic text of Sethnakht's Elephantine stela on http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord//hieroglyphes/ You cant get it either in "Manuel de codage" format, in gif, or in postscript. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 5, rue Beranger 92240 Malakoff tel 01 48 70 37 13 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:07:39 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL West P6. L17 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL West P6. L17 Thanks for the comments, there are a few things I'd like to discuss further: Serge's comment: > You can also cut like this : wa m nn n hrw xpr.w / wn.in ... (snip) In the phrase _wa.w m nn n hrw..._, where did the _n_ come from (not in the text)? Is it really the genitive, _n.y_? Do you think it was really there in speech but deleted from the written text, possibly because of the previous _nn_? xpr.w as a stative has a problem for me. What is the subject? Or is it standing alone without one (not common for 3rd person). If the subject is the previous nominal phrase "one of these days", would it then mean, "One of these days happened."? Not very clear as an independent sentence. Is the following sentence truly independent or a dependent (circumstantial) clause of the previous (as in my translation),eg. (loosely) "A day came WHEN ...."? Loprieno thinks _hrw_ "day" was really vocalised with an additional .w ending (not written), so the plural would look the same. Do others agree? The _nn_ would seem to indicate the following noun must be plural. Now, the _mss.s_!! Serge and Gerry both agree it is nominal but I'm not sure whether it is simply a plain noun, derived from the verb, ("her labour") or a second tense form. Faulkner doesn't list _mss_ as a noun. It is geminated, so that restricts the possibilities for verb forms. If it is a 2nd tense, then it is the subject of the verb _qsn_. Is that possible? Hoch's grammar cites 2nd tenses as objects of verbs but not subjects. If 2nd tense, and subject, then the reading would be something like, "(The manner of) her labour was painful." Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== From: "Rikki Lloyd" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Egyptian Literature Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:56:47 PDT A little off the subject, but I have been curious... We are indebted to Sir EA Wallis Budge, not for his interpretations, but for his publications of actual hieroglyphics of the whole Book of the Dead and other writings. Where are all the others? Archealogists say that they have found hundreds upon hundreds of papyrii, ranging from political to cultural, poetic to scientific. Yet we "the common people" only see a handful of them, time and again. How can we see these others? Write to specific colleges? Call certain individuals? I want to see more! -Richard Lloyd- rilloyd@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:18:45 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL NakhtAmun's title On p.62 of the summer 1997 issue of KMT magazine there is a photograph of the interior of the tomb of NakhtAmun (probably at Deir el Medina). To the left of the doorway is an inscription which reads: di nsw Htp nb mAat it nTr.w di=f anx D s n kA n TAt m st mAat nxtimn mAa xrw This is pretty straightforward (the nb mAat referred to by the way is Ptah) except for Nakht Amun's title "TAt m st mAat." The st mAat refers to the tombs in the Valley of Kings, etc. - "in the Place of Truth." However the term TAt is a puzzle. It obviously isn't "vizier." It is spelled G47-Y1-X1-Z1. It isn't in Faulkner - does anyone have any idea what it is? (It should probably come out to something like "Scribe in the Place of Truth") -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Kasia Szpakowska" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:49:51 PST Subject: AEL Re: AEL Egyptian Literature CC: rilloyd@hotmail.com Hi! I would recommend journals and the Library (inter-library loan is great!). Even Budge does not actually offer a publication of the original, as (at least in the 2 versions I've seen kicking around), he does not provide the text in its original hieratic script, but rather his interpretation of how it should be read in hieroglyphs. Most publications are in journals, or in unpopular tomes. One way you can find out where a particular text is published, is by working backwards (or forwards depending on your point of view). Most of the time you will read a text in English translation, in Lichtheim perhaps, and say, for example, "Wow, I sure would like to read the original Teachings of Ptahotep!". Well, Lichtheim provides the sources for publication, translation, and commentary on all the works she cites. Most authors do so as well. To see originals publications in general, you can just open up an Egyptological journal, say, JEA (Journal of Egyptian Archaeology) for example, and you're likely to see any number of texts in hieroglyphs, hieratic, or demotic, perhaps even Coptic! Have fun! i wish more people were curious like you,than we would have more publications available in a more popular format in more popular bookstores! --kasia >From: Rikki Lloyd >To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk >Subject: AEL Egyptian Literature >Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:56:47 PDT >Reply-to: Ancient Egyptian Language List > > >A little off the subject, but I have been curious... > >We are indebted to Sir EA Wallis Budge, not for his interpretations, but >for his publications of actual hieroglyphics of the whole Book of the >Dead and other writings. > >Where are all the others? Archealogists say that they have found >hundreds upon hundreds of papyrii, ranging from political to cultural, >poetic to scientific. Yet we "the common people" only see a handful of >them, time and again. How can we see these others? Write to specific >colleges? Call certain individuals? I want to see more! > >-Richard Lloyd- >rilloyd@hotmail.com > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Kasia Szpakowska Near Eastern Languages & Cultures ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:17:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Egyptian Literature Hi, Richard, I understand your concern perfectly, and Budge's books have been a blessing for amateurs. I wish that it were easy to find Egyptian literature in text editions on the shelves of general bookstores, however, the publishing establishments of today do not believe that they will make money from such books. The only reason that Budge's books are so available is that their copyright has long expired, and Dover Press has been raking in money by not having to pay royalties. Meanwhile much more recent and accurate publication of Egyptian texts does continue, but only through small academic presses for a very specialized market. Many of these books are prohibitively expensive, and most students and scholars are forced to get a lot of their texts in photocopies used in classes. Until there is some kind of revolution in the publishing industry, such as the internet which is just getting started, there will probably not be a whole lot available. If you are truly interested in getting text editions you should try to obtain catalogs of academic books from Otto Harrassowitz, Eisenbrauns, and other such companies. Often enough people have announced on this list websites where one can look for such books. You could also try obtaining them through interlibrary loan from an academic library in your region. That is all I can suggest at the moment. I wish I could be more helpful. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ==============================================================================