Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 22:18:58 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL sDm.w=f To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL sDm.w=f Refarding a web page of alternative names given to verb forms, I can put up one in the westcar site. The current page 6 discussion already has the first series of names given in this thread. Thrash out the rest and put up all of them. It beats me that there seems to be so little consensus on even basic things like the names of verb forms. Loprieno gives a fair list of alternative names,eg; stative/old perfective/pseudoparticiple imperfective sDm=f/emphatic sDm=f/nominal sDm=f/Dass-Formen aorist/circumstantial sDm=f, although the last couple relate to linguistic differences of opinion. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 14:36:18 +0200 From: Marc DIEBOLD To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P6, L 11- 16 Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > REGARDING West. P6, L 11- 16 > > Westcar moves on! Comments please. > > Line 11> > wDA pw iri.n Hm=f r aH=f > Lit: "What his majesty did was to proceed to his palace" > or: "His majesty proceeded to his palace" > NOTES: This is the INFINITIVE pw iri.n SUBJECT form described in P1,L1. > The iri.n is a relative form, "what (the subject) did". -- Bonjour, Thanks for this Mike. I was wondering if pw iri.n had to be translated or simply omitted. "What he did was to" sounds nice. Perhaps in French: "Ce qu'il fit fut de" Amicales salutations / kind regards / mit freundlichen Gruessen, Marc. /////// ( o o ) ----oOOo-----U-----oOOo---------------------------- Marc DIEBOLD Universit. Louis Pasteur Tel: 03.88.416.149 4 rue Blaise Pascal Fax: 03.88.416.060 67070 STRASBOURG FRANCE Email: mailto:diebold@cournot.u-strasbg.fr Fr : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/homepage.htm US : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/us.htm --------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:38:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P6, L 11- 16 Hi, Mike, You are doing just great. > Line 11> > wDA pw iri.n Hm=f r aH=f > Lit: "What his majesty did was to proceed to his palace" > or: "His majesty proceeded to his palace" Right. > Dd-in Hm=f > Then his majest said, "... > > immi di=tw m Hr n.y Ddi r pr > Not so Lit: "See that Djedi is directed to the house ..." Right. > Line 13> > zA-n.y-sw.t Hrw-dd=f Hmsi=f Hna=f > ".. of prince Hrw-dd=f, that he may stay with him" Right. > Line 14> > iri aq.w=f m tA xA [6] Hnq.t ds Sn.t [7] iwA wa [8] > "Make provisions for 1000 loaves of bread,100 jars of beer, one ox,..." Here, I would only change: make HIS PROVISIONS be.... ...but clearly you just missed the pronoun, though it is typed in your transliteration. > Line 15> > iAq.w xrS Sn.t > "(and) 100 bundles of leeks(?)." > NOTES: Faulkner gives the meaning as leek, or as vegetables in general. > Were leeks that popular? I believe, but could be wrong, that j3q.t is "leak" and j3q is generic "greens". Yes, leaks were rather popular, as were onions and garlic as well. It might be interesting to make a catalogue of just which vegetables were eaten in Egypt. Many of the ones eaten there now were not yet brought there from far continents. Here are some that I know of for certain: (can be found in Lise Maniche's _An Ancient Egyptian Herbal_) Egyptian Coptic English j3q.w.t Ee leaks HD.w mcOl onions xtn cEn garlic m3t.t mit celery m3t.t x3s.t lat parsley Hr.w-bjk bilnebOk garbanzos Szp.t Ope zucchini bnd.t bonte cucumber `bw Of lettuce `rSn arin lentils Dd.w.t coeit olives tH.w betbet pees jkw oke sesame pwr.w phel fava beans jwr.y.t ourO beans > Line 16> > iri-in=tw mi wD.t nb.t Hm=f#000# > Lit: "Then it was done according to every command of his majesty." Right. It seems like you are very capable of reading this text. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:55:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West P6, L 7 - 10 Hi, Marianne, > It's probably the "Two Fishes Canal". The dets. N23 and N36 present > here make it clear that a canal or channel is being spoken of. However, > the sign beneath the fishes indicates a nome, which should be Lower > Egyptian Nome 2, being that is where sAXbw is. However, this nome > doesn't have two fishes as its emblem. In fact, the only nome with a > fish, in this case being a single one, is "Char", whose capital is > Mendes. I'm not even sure how all this gets transliterated as "km.wy". You are quite right. The transliteration could be any number of things. I have km.wy for unknown reasons, unfortunately. I had written it as a note in my translation from when I read it in a class some years ago, but did not get the citation for why it should be this or who came up with the idea. If you look at the hieratic you will find that the exact type of fish is not at all obvious, but that the fish looks like a generic hieratic fish. If it were the barbutus fish, which is the one on the standard of the nome of Mendes and was probably read H3t-mHy.t as the name of the fish goddess of that location, its transliteration would probably be bwt.wy, since the barbutus fish represented thw sound bwt. If it is the lates fish, it would be jn.wy. If it is the petrocephalus fish, it would be bz.wy. If it is the mullet it would be `D.wy. About the only fish it is not possible for it to be is the catfish, which might give n`r.wy. After looking up km.wy in the Woerterbuch I find that it is a corruption of km-wr which is the name for a canal in the Nome of Athribis. Athribis, is however in the Eastern Delta while, Sakhebu is supposed by most people's reckoning to be in the western part of the Delta. So, probably someone wrote a very clever article which convinced my instructor of its value as km.wy, but I unfortunately did not record where he got this information. Through the dangerous speculation of back-formation I might guess that whoever it was argued that the fish could in some way substitue for the crocodile-skin sign and produce this sound, but I really cannot personally think of any resons why this would be likely. > > bAk=i A n=s Ds=i kA mAn=i tA-Hw.t-nTr > Well, His Majesty is saying that, were the sandbanks of the" Two Fishes > Canal" not cut off, he could go there, himself, to see the temple of Ra, > Lord of sAXbw. The word "otherwise" is implied. I think you are quite right here. jsT can be used in adversative ways, so I think the contrast is already there, and not just implied. One would normally expect the jsT clause to come afterwards, but possibly this is just literary style at work for it to come first. SOme very good ideas, Marianne! Yours, Geoff sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 21:52:50 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL West P6, L 7 - 10 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL West P6, L 7 - 10 Thanks Geoff, That clears up a few things about this passage. I was really fooled by: b3k=j 3 n=s Ds=j "I will work tracks to it myself," - as I was expecting the verb bAk to have a 'arm+stick' determinative. As it stands, with the 1st pers. suffix pronoun (seated man), it looks just like bAk meaning servant. OK, if it means 'work, carry out (a task)' then the following noun should be dual or plural, shouldn't it? There are no plural strokes and only one leg! I suppose the nearest english might be something like: "... work a (foot) track' to it..." What if A+leg was a composite. I note that rd, 'foot' occurs in many composite expressions, often idiomatic: 'A' could be the exclamatory particle, and the leg determinative could be the ideogram, foot. It might then read, "I will work indeed a leg to it myself." Just a thought. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 16:37:25 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P6, L 11- 16 Dear Geoff, Thanks for the list of Egyptian veggies. Gives us something to chew on--or at least to copy and file away for future reference, as I have done. I had added the post to a number of other very handy lists provided by you! Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:19:30 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Nefertum Chapel Scene E(1&2) On 27 Aug 97 at 23:09, Graham wrote: > > 35) xr b3j.w xnt.y jwnw (j)x.t.y m (3)s.t=s > for the Ba's presiding over Heliopolis, two affairs into their > place(s), > > xr b3.w xnt.y jwnw dj=f `nx wD3 snb n mn-m3`.t-r` > for the Ba's presiding over Heliopolis, two affairs into their > place(s), Hi Geoff, Just when you thought it was getting predictable... ;-) Did anyone else notice that line 35 should be: xr b3.w xnt.y jwnw dj=f `nx wD3 snb n mn-m3`.t-r` for the Ba's presiding over Heliopolis, place(s), may he give life, health, and prosperity to Menmaatre! At least, that's what I think it should be. Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:04:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Nefertum Chapel Scene E(1&2) Hi, Mark, > Did anyone else notice that line 35 should be: > > xr b3.w xnt.y jwnw dj=f `nx wD3 snb n mn-m3`.t-r` > for the Ba's presiding over Heliopolis, > may he give life, health, and prosperity to Menmaatre! Right, I seem to have ignored this tail end. Now that I think of it with the dj=f the translation must be slightly different: 35) xr b3j.w xnt.y jwnw (j)x.t.y m (3)s.t=s for the manifestation of the Chief of Heliopolis, the two affairs into their places, xr b3.w xnt.y jwnw dj=f `nx wD3 snb n mn-m3`.t-r` for the manifestation of the Chief of Heliopolis, the two affairs into their places, that he might give life prosperity and health to Menmaatre. Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:50:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Nefertum Chapel Scene F Hi, I just wanted to report that I have updated the Nefertum Chapel site somewhat. The URL is http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html I also wanted to offer my final translation from the scenes. Scene F is mostly images with a small amount of text. The deities figured are particularly enigmatic. The tableau consists of Sety I arranging breads and beer on a table before a large shrine filled with images of the gods. This scene was opposite to the corresponding scene D. The position of the final lion-headed deities probably indicates that Nefertum was enthroned at the back of the chapel together with his mother Sekhmet. (This might be because the third chapel which ended up being converted into a corridor had originally been designated to Sekhmet and she was later moved into the same chapel with Nefertum, ...OR, as I think is more probable, she was intended to reside in this chapel with him from the very beginning. The doorway to the Sokar Complex names the third cult recipiant as Aah, the moon god. It is my opinion that this deity's cultic venue was moved to a chapel on the roof where the actual moon might have been observed after his Sokar-Complex chapel was modified into the Western Corridor. All of this will be written up in YES 5 in the coming year.) The occupants of the shrine in scene F are: Tatjenen, enthroned, wearing horns, disk, and plumes and holding a was-scepter, crook and flagellum; Amun Within His Disk, depicted as a kneeling mummiform god with a solar disk in the place of his head, and a crux ansata hanging from his neck; Osiris-Onophris, depicted with a djed-pillar in the place of his head and a crux ansata hanging from his neck; Sety I as a crouching sphinx, wearing the nemes-headdress and offering the Hen (a box containing the deed to the temple) toward the next figure; and Sekhmet, as an enthroned lioness-headed woman reaching out to take the Hen from the King. These last two figures are interestingly depicted on an elongate horizon-sign which in turn rests upon a sledge. Probably there is some play with the idea that through the gift of the temple to Sekhmet, Sety has achieved the status of "horizon-dweller". Here is my translation: First god: 1) t3-Tnn Hr.y-jb Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r` Tatjenen residing in the Mansion of Menmaatre, 2) dj=f 3w.t-jb nb(.t) as he gives all happiness. Second god: 3) jmn jm.y jtn=f Hr.y-jb Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r` Amun Within His Disk residing in the Mansion of Menmaatre, 4) dj=f `nx Dd w3s nb xr=f as he gives all life, stability, and dominion to him. Third god: 5) 3sjrj-wnn-nfr Hr.y-jb Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r` Osiris-Onophris residing in the Mansion of Menmaatre, 6) dj=f snb nb xr=f as he gives all health to him. Sphinx: 7) Hnk Hn n mw.t=f sxm.t Offering the Hen to his mother Sekhmet 8) jn n.y-sw.t mn-m3`.t-r` by King Menmaatre, 9) z3-r` nb x`j.w stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH Son of Re, Lord of Diadems, Sety Beloved of Ptah, 10) jrj=f dj.w `nx Dd w3s mj-r` that he might achieve the state of "given life, stability, and dominion" like Re. Goddess: 11) sxm.t `3j.t mrj.y.t ptH Great Sekhmet, beloved of Ptah 12) Hr.y-jb Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r` residing in the Mansion of Menmaatre, 13) dj=s Htp.w as she gives offerings. King: 14) Dd-mdw.w jn nb t3.wy mn-m3`.t-r` A recitation by Lord of the Two Lands, Menmaatre, 15) z3-r` nb x`j.w stX.y mrj.y n.y ptH Son of Re, Lord of Diadems, Sety, Beloved of Ptah; 16) Htp [...] (d)bH.t=f "May [...] be content (with) what he has requested! 17) Htp zkr Hr b`H=f May Sokar be content with his bounty, 18) z3w p.t `=k r t3 guardian of heaven, with your hand on earth 19) T3z-pXr Htp-dj-n.y-sw.t Hn=j and vice versa. An invocation offering: I approach in life and I am pure." Be well and have fun. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 03:24:21 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P6, L4/helping verbs To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: West. P6, L4/helping verbs Dear Geoff and AEL members, Can I clear up the translation of Westcar p6, line 4 ? Dd.n=i kA zA=k kA zA=f kA wa im=s Geoff explained the use of kAi as an auxiliary verb, "do/act/be", and it pushes the action into the future. What form of the verb is it? Prospective? If so, it would then express purpose/result ie., "I said, that there will be...". A revised translation (from my original) would be: "I said, there will be a son of yours, [there will be] a son of his, and [there will be] one of her's."#000# NOTE: the last phrase I have translated "one of her's" but it is more complex than this. Is 'wa' the subject and 'im=s' the object of the verb KAi?, lit. "One shall be out of/from her"?? If so, then are the previous uses of KAi in this sentence in a passive form? I'm confused here.... Regards, Mike D-S Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ==============================================================================