Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:29:06 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Egyptian greetings Graham wrote: > > Hi, Marianne, > > > only got the *scroll* after "xrt". Clearly then, the "xrt" is the > > abstract term. However, I have a feeling that "xrt" might not have the > > meaning of health or state or anything connected with that concept. Geoff: > xr.t is "countenance". It is related to the preposition xr "near". It > probably literally means "vicinity/whereabouts" as a kind of indirect way > of refering to one's "person/mood/". I thought "Hr" means "countenance". As in "(i)nD Hr=k". All right--if "xr.t" means "countenance" how is that related to "near, vicinity, whereabouts"? And how do those concepts relate to a person's mood? However, let us assume that we have "nD xr.t". Since the "xr.t" has to be something abstract because of the determinative, obviously it cannot be "countenance" as in "face" because a face is not abstract. That means we have to put "countenance" in the context of something like "I will not countenance that behavior on your part". Or "I will not indulge that behavior." So we could get "nD xr.t" as "ask indulgence", which also does not make much sense in the context of the story, although "countenance/indulgence" is an abstract thing. Unless you can explain it better, I'm sorry to say your above explanation doesn't make sense to me. > > You will find plenty of examples of it in letters. It is very common in > the Late Ramesside Letters, but of course those are Late Egyptian. I > can't remember if it is used in the Heqanakht letters or not, since I have > not read those in years, but it is such a standard phrase in Egyptian, > that there simply is no question of its meaning. It may be a standard phrase, but that is no guarantee it has been interpreted correctly. I would want to see more examples, of course. (snip) >Some simple greetings are: > > j-nD Hr=k "hello"/"Hi, you!" > xr `=k "How are you?" > "jj.tj m Htp" "welcome!" But they are not "nD xrt" > It is best to just learn them, and move on. In a minute ;-) Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:24:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Nefertum Chapel or not? I want to thank everyone who has responded on and off list with regard to the images of the Nefertum Chapel. I will leave them up. I hope that people will eventually decide to discuss them at least, if they are not into translating them. I do plan to put the rest of the images up there too but first I need to find ways of reducing the images so they will fit better. Milo, thanks for the offer of help. If you know what to do to reduce the images I already have up there, could you download them reduce them to the smallest possible files without losing all quality, upload them again, and email them back to me? I do wish to put some discussion of the scenes up there too, but probably this will wait until I have gotten a certain article into print. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 01:06:40 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Scene C of Nefertum Chapel Hi Geoff, > 11) xpr.n=f jm m xnt(.y)-jmn.t(.y.w) > through which he became Chief of the Westerners. > > h3 ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f jn-j(w)=k m p.t t3 mj > Hail Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall, are you in heaven or (on) > earth? Come Isn't this "South of His Wall" a reference to the white wall of Memphis or something? I remember reading something about this about a year ago, and thinking it was an odd sounding epithet. Perhaps if it's not too tangential to our purposes here you could tell us something about its origin. > 12) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m qnb.t mj m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m rsw mHw.t m(j) > as your Akh! Are you in the council? Come as your Akh! Are you > in the South or in the North? Come > > 13) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m jmn.t j3b.t mj m 3x=k > as your Akh! Are you in the West or the East? Come as your Akh! I've often wondered whether an Akh could be a stellar manifestation of the dead king? Faulkner translates it as "the spirit state" in his dictionary, but isn't there a related word Akhw, which means shining being? There is apparently a Pyramid Text that says "King Teti has not died the death, he has become a glorious one [akhw] in the horizon". Best wishes, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:02:54 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , ANE List , OsirisList Subject: AEL Hieratic Web Pages There has been a lack of information available on reading Hieratic, either in print or on the Web. The situation has been discussed a number of times on these lists, and it has been said that the only way to learn Hieratic is to get hold of Moeller's _Hieratische Palaeographie_ (a difficult book to find a copy of), or to find somewhere some hieratic with accompanying hieroglyphic transcription and figure it our from there. For those of us who do not live in a major urban centre, let alone one of the few that has a university that offers courses in Egyptology, these solutions are next to impossible. It seemed that some sort of introductory material to at least help those widhing to learn hieratic get started, so that they might have a chance of progressing by struggling with the few bits of hieratic that are available in books. I have therefore set out to create a set of Web pages to help people learn some of the basics of Hieratic: Basic Lessons in Hieratic http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/Hieratic/ This may be a case of a fool rushing in where angels have (apparently) feared to tread, since I am only just starting my own learning of Hieratic with what resources I have been able to glean (thanks to friends on the Internet). The pages are no doubt flawed, and I would most certainly appreciate any constructive criticism to help make them better. One of the exercise pages (Exercise 2C) may be of interest to those who are interested in working towards use of the Web to provide "correspondence courses" (the downfall of many traditional correspondence courses has been the slowness of feedback via snal-mail), showing one possible technique for providing feedback/marking. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 19:28:37 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene C of Nefertum Chapel Mark Wilson wrote: > > h3 ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f jn-j(w)=k m p.t t3 mj > > Hail Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall, are you in heaven or (on) > > earth? Come > > 12) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m qnb.t mj m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m rsw mHw.t m(j) > > as your Akh! Are you in the council? Come as your Akh! Are you > > in the South or in the North? Come > > > > 13) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m jmn.t j3b.t mj m 3x=k > > as your Akh! Are you in the West or the East? Come as your Akh! This construction "jn jw=k m A B" looks to me like it should be "Whether you are in A or B." I can't off-hand find any references to this, but it seems right. > I've often wondered whether an Akh could be a stellar manifestation > of the dead king? Faulkner translates it as "the spirit state" in his > dictionary, but isn't there a related word, Akhw, which means shining > being? The context here sounds very much like a stellar manifestion is > to be imagined. There is some discussion of the concepts of 3x and 3x iqr as seen by the villagers of Deir el-Medina (approx. same period of time as these inscriptions) in lesko (ed.) _Pharaoh's Workers_, 114-5, 124-6. From this it seems that the closest concept in English is "ghost." -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 21:35:26 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Egyptian greetings Saida wrote: > I thought "Hr" means "countenance". Only in the sense of "face" > All right--if > "xr.t" means "countenance" how is that related to "near, vicinity, > whereabouts"? And how do those concepts relate to a person's mood? > However, let us assume that we have "nD xr.t". Since the "xr.t" has to > be something abstract because of the determinative, obviously it cannot > be "countenance" as in "face" because a face is not abstract. I think that you are forgetting the plural determinative is there too. xr.wt = things that are before you => possessions => status > > You will find plenty of examples of it in letters. It is very common in > > the Late Ramesside Letters, but of course those are Late Egyptian. I > > can't remember if it is used in the Heqanakht letters or not, since I have > > not read those in years, but it is such a standard phrase in Egyptian, > > that there simply is no question of its meaning. > > It may be a standard phrase, but that is no guarantee it has been > interpreted correctly. I would want to see more examples, of course. > > (snip) > > >Some simple greetings are: > > > > j-nD Hr=k "hello"/"Hi, you!" > > xr `=k "How are you?" > > "jj.tj m Htp" "welcome!" > > But they are not "nD xrt" One thing is to not confuse what the original literal meaning of the phrase might have been with the meaning that it had acquired as a greeting ritual phrase. An example in English of this sort of thing: when you say "Hi!" to someone, it is just a formal noise, despite its origin as "How are you?" and even if you say "How are you?" as a greeting you don't really think of it literally (at least most people don't - I can tell because if I actually ANSWER the question they are, well, almost shocked at my departing from the ritual). How these phrases end up at the end of all the flowery phrases I'm not sure - I think there are some things we just have to say "Well, that's the way it is, and I'll just have to accept it, until I find some evidence that tells me why." -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:40:50 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Egyptian greetings Dear Marianee and Osirians: > Geoff: > > xr.t is "countenance". It is related to the preposition xr "near". > It > probably literally means "vicinity/whereabouts" as a kind of > indirect way > of refering to one's "person/mood/". > > I thought "Hr" means "countenance". As in "(i)nD Hr=k". All > right--if > "xr.t" means "countenance" how is that related to "near, vicinity, > whereabouts"? And how do those concepts relate to a person's mood? I think Geoff, without his books, has made a simple mistake. xr.t does not mean "countenance" in any Egyptian dictionary with which I am familiar. Pat -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:56:16 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL P. Jumilhac In the papyrus Jumilhac page that Geoff put up, there are a number of cases where it appears that isir pw ... ("this is Osiris...") is paralleled by what I presume is stS pw ... ("This is Seth...") - e.g. col.15. However the writing of the S is almost square enough to be a p. Am I correct in interpreting it as S? -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:34:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Nefertum Chapel Religious Concepts Hi, Mark, Thank you for trying to discuss things. ;-P > > 11) xpr.n=f jm m xnt(.y)-jmn.t(.y.w) > > through which he became Chief of the Westerners. > > > > h3 ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f jn-j(w)=k m p.t t3 mj > > Hail Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall, are you in heaven or (on) > > earth? Come > > Isn't this "South of His Wall" a reference to the white wall of > Memphis or something? I remember reading something about this about a > year ago, and thinking it was an odd sounding epithet. Perhaps if > it's not too tangential to our purposes here you could tell us > something about its origin. Yes, it is certainly a reference to the walls of Memphis. There was an important temple to Ptah just south of the walls. This epithet is applicable to the Ptah side of the syncretic deity Ptah-Sokar. There is nothing much to say about it other than it locates the god on the map and pin-points him as the god of Memphis. maybe this would be a good time to introduce the gods of Memphis. The divine triad of Memphis consisted of Ptah, Sekhmet, and Nefertum. Other important Memphite gods were Sokar, Aker, and Tatjenen. Lesser-known ones were Herawifi, Shezmu, Shezmetet, Mafdet, etc. For a detailed study of Ptah, see Maj Sandman-Holmberg's book _The God Ptah_. Ptah was an extremely ancient god, appearing in the first dynasty along with his earthly incarnation the Apis Bull. His high priest was called the "chief architect". He was depicted as a mummiform man with shaven head, and a collar with large counterpoise (menat) in the back. He usually held a Djed-pillar and various scepters, and mostly stood on the Maat-pedestal under a shrine with slanting roof. One of his principal epithets was nb m3`.t "Lord of Maat", and this designation placed him as judge of the dead and mortuary god. For this reason he was quickly assimilated to Sokar, and later to Osiris. Until the New Kingdom, Ptah seldom appeared outside of Memphis at all. He did not seem to become a major part of the national cult in the same way that Re and his Heliopolitan entourage did. He was a god of crafts, creation, the support of the heavens, and in this last function was often identified with Shu, just as his wife, Sekhmet was identified with Tefnut. Ptah of Memphis was associated with the Djed-pillar, and called "Djed Shepsi" "August Djed-pillar" In his iconography you will see him holding onto a Djed pillar from which emerge life and dominion. The Djed-pillar itself, of course, meant "stability/endurance". If you look at the iconography in the royal tombs of the New Kingdom in the Valley of the Kings, you can see that in many tombs (Ramesses I, Horemheb, Sety I, etc.) you will find corresponding scenes of Ptah and Nefertum juxtapposed accross a threshold. Behind Ptah there is represented a Djed-pillar, while behind Nefertum there is a Tjet-knot. Other representations of Ptah associate him with two Djed-pillars on top of each of which sits a falcon. This also happens to be a common symbol for Sokar. It might represent the meeting of Re and Osiris in the underworld as is seen in the Book of the Dead (can't find the spell number). The Djed-pillar is also a support for heaven, and as such there were four of them in all the cardinal directions of the compass. Ptah is said to have lifted the heavens, and this may be the point of contact between the god and his symbol, which later was to become an attribute of Osiris. The Sjetjayet shrine of Sokar was of the per-nu type, a reed shrine with an arched roof. On each corner of it there was supposed to stand a Djed-pillar. In the Sokar Complex of Sety I at Abydos, the wall space between the Chapels of Sokar and Nefertum is occupied by a huge anthropomorphic Djed-pillar designated as Ptah-Sokar-Osiris. Sokar, a god who took the form of a falcon or a man with falcon's head, had either been the original mortuary god of the Memphite necropolis or he was imported there from somewhere in the Delta. Very early on, he was already amalgamated with Ptah of Memphis and both were gods of craftsmen as well as principal mortuary gods along with Anubis. Early Old Kingdom Htp-dj-n.y-sw.t formulae (invocation offering formulae carved on coffins or tomb steles) have the offering in the names of Ptah, Sokar, and Anubis, but not Osiris until Dynasty Five and later. Ptah was the god of craftsmen because he was the architect of the universe, while Sokar was the god of crafts because, as the god of what is under the earth, he was the possessor and source of all mineral building materials, metals, and jewels. Both of them were actually associated with one another as cthonic gods, and they came to resemble one another so much that it becomes difficult to distinguish what originally pertained to which god. Soon enough both were joined to Osiris in the triune Ptah-Sokar-Osiris, which generally had the form of a man with tripartite wig and crowned with the Tatjenen crown (flat horns, bearing double Maat-plumes and an optional solar disk). Figures of this god were put into tombs and mortuary papyri hidden inside them. Every year a new figure of Sokar was made during the Sokar festival which marked the setting of Orion from the night sky. This was believed to represent the death of the god, who was then buried in a tomb, but later found to be resurrected. The feast also happened to coincide with the subsidence of the Nile's inundation, so the god was both Orion and the flood of fertilizing waters from the underworld. The figures were made out of kernels of emmer wheat, sand, and clay, and they were watered and watched and prayed over until the grain sprouted. Actually, the old Sokar figure, which had served for the previous year was mummified and buried in an anthropomorphic coffin with falcon face. Inside, the figure, having been treated with incenses and perfume-bearing substances, was covered with wax masks and parts making him into the image of Osiris with his white crown and double Maat-plumes and giving him an erect phallus. The new figure was made so that it could sprout at the appropriate time and then be dragged around inside its shrine aboard the Henu-barque on its sledge. This rite of dragging the Henu-barque was supposed to be performed by the King himself. The boat was dragged around the walls of Memphis and the populace followed along with garlands of onions around their necks. A good illustration of this scene can be seen on the southern wall of the Second court of the mortuary temple of Ramesses III at Medinet Habu. It is hard to say precisely how the other members of the Memphite divine family were related to these gods. Sekhmet and Nefertum, both deities hagind leonine associations, were clearly mother and son before they were associated with either Ptah or Sokar. Sekhmet was to Nefertum what Bastet was to Mihos. Sekhmet seems to be a Delta goddess transplanted into the heart of Memphis in the district called Ankhtawy. In the New Kingdom, Sekhmet is more often than not the wife of Ptah, and Hathor, was the wife of Sokar. Both pairs, however are considred to be the parents of Nefertum. My take on it is that Ptah and Sekhmet represent the living gods, while Sokar and Hathor are underworld equivalents for Ptah and Sekhmet. In any event, the leonine Nefertum was a horizon god and could move from the world of the living into the world of the dead and vice versa. Nefertum is first and formost the lotus god, "the lotus at the nose of Re", according to the Coffin Texts, but more so the lotus which rose from the abyss and on which Re rises everyday at sunrise. He is the one who delivers celestial bodies back into the sky from the Akhet. The moon can be associated with Nefertum just as much as the sun. In fact, I think that Nefertum could lift any clestial body back into the sky. When we progress further in these scenes we will see some iconography which relates to this function. Nefertum, associated with the lotus and its pleasant aroma, like Shezmu, another lionine god who is "fierce of face" was a god of perfumes and unguents. many unguent bottles have the form of a lion because of him, Mihos, and Shezmu, gods who fulfilled similar functions and who were constantly substitued for one another. As a god of perfumes and scented oils, he also was a god of embalming, and he prevented the putrification and decay of the flesh after death. Therefore his function as a mortuary god was extremely important. Nefertum was also a punisher of the damned. He. like Heza-Her "fierce face", Mihos, and Shezmu was an executioner of Osiris. In certain papyri, especially late ones, Nefertum is the principal judge of the dead, in place of Osiris in the hall of judgement. This attribute was part of his feline character, and that of his mother, Sekhmet as well. Sekhmet was the punisher of the sinners who were in the world of the living, while Nefertum was their punisher in the world of the dead. One of his epithets relating to his function as a judge of the dead was nb k3.w "Lord of Kas". Sekhmet was of course one of the most important goddesses of Egypt. She was the feared and venerated lady of terror, the goddess of plague and sickness, and therefore the goddess of healing, doctors, and magicians. She represented the forces of nature gone wild. She was the untamed form of order, while Hathor was the pleasant side of order, and both together were aspects of the goddess and concept Maat. As the Eye of Re, she was the goddess who ran away and had to be brought back and appeased. She was the star Sirius and the inundation in its manifestation as a torrential flood. She could also represent the rainstorms that came gusting down the desert wadis. One of her epithets was Pakhet "the ripper", and in this form she was especially venerated at Speos Artemidos The Greeks recognized their Artemis in her, because of her role as an angry huntress who shoots arrows and as a goddess of both sickness and healing. Every year when the flood would return, Sekhmet shot her seven arrows and distributed the seven plagues of the year. Those who were guilty would die, and those who were good would live. The populace would attempt to protect themselves with many amulets and appeasment ceremonies with huge blood sacrifices, butchering gazelles, geese, and other animals, and pouring their blood on her altars in place of their own. They also attempted to get her drunk with offerings of wine and beer. [back to the texts:] > > 12) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m qnb.t mj m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m rsw mHw.t m(j) > > as your Akh! Are you in the council? Come as your Akh! Are you > > in the South or in the North? Come > > > > 13) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m jmn.t j3b.t mj m 3x=k > > as your Akh! Are you in the West or the East? Come as your Akh! > > I've often wondered whether an Akh could be a stellar manifestation > of the dead king? Faulkner translates it as "the spirit state" in his > dictionary, but isn't there a related word, Akhw, which means shining > being? The context here sounds very much like a stellar manifestion is > to be imagined. Yes, the root refers to "shining". It is a manifestation which is something like a body made of light. It might be like an "emanation" or something like that. In the case of Ptah-Sokar, if it is a stellar form which the text invokes, that form would be as Orion, though Orion is not specifically named here in this text. You will notice that I have simply not translated the word "Akh". This is because we don't have a handy English translation for the concept. We tend not to translate "Ba," "Ka", or "Akh" because we are not yet one hunderd percent positive that we understand these words thoroughly. Akh's can reside in and pass through the "Akhet"s which we generally traslate as "horizon"s, though really they are a kind of compartment which exists between this world and the next world, kind of like a changing room, a mud room, or cloak room for gods, stars, and shades of the dead. See James P. Allen's book on Egyptian cosmology. Beings who pass through the Akhet's often have to transform and take on different attributes. The deceased must usually pretend to be Horus who is come to deliver a message to his father Osiris. In order to pass through the Akhet he has to acquire the nemes headdress from the double lion god, Ruty or the Aker monster, kind of like a sphinx who questions all those who attempt to pass between worlds. See Book of the Dead 78 for the text of this encounter. Sphinxes almost always wear the nemes headdress because they represent the king as Harmakhis (Hrw-m-3x.t "Horus who is in the Horizon"), as the solar king who has gained admitance into the Akhet, assuming the leonine form of Ruty, Aker, Nefertum, Mihos and other horizon lion gods, as the son of Sekhmet, the "fierce face". This is most likely also the reason that most coffins of Egyptian kings as well as their funerary masks also show them wearing hte nemes headdress. They are thus equipped for the journey through the Akhet intot he other world. Probably it is by its association with the lion gods like Hz3-Hr "fierce of face" that the sphinx of Giza is referred to by the Arabs as Abu-l-hawl (Father of Terror) At the back of the Nefertum Chapel There are a few bits of iconography which might relate to this, but let's save those for when we get to the appropriate texts. I hope that this is not boring or too far off topic. Maybe some of this information will make translating these texts come more easily. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:34:31 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL P. Jumilhac Dear Stephen: Since this looks very much like the determinative for "stone", some (including Budge) distinguish between st and stS/X. Pat Stephen Fryer wrote: > In the papyrus Jumilhac page that Geoff put up, there are a number of > cases where it appears that isir pw ... ("this is Osiris...") is > paralleled by what I presume is stS pw ... ("This is Seth...") - e.g. > col.15. However the writing of the S is almost square enough to be a > p. Am I correct in interpreting it as S? > > -- > Stephen Fryer > Lund Computer Services > > ************************************************** > The more answers I find, the more questions I have > ************************************************** -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:45:02 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Scene C of Nefertum Chapel (Thanks a lot Graham for your text on Ptah theology !) Graham writes: > 9) Dd-mdw.w* n xr=k m hrw pn Dr** x3wy=f jnj(.w) n=k nw.t*** nw mj > A recitation for your countenance on this day until its night. What > the hunter has hunted, has been brought for you. Come, > *{w} makes no sense here, and must be part of Dd-mdw.w(?) > **the {cup} should be the {bundle of flax}. > ***This {desert} sign must be a mistake. (?) I had tried some other emmendations : (i)w.n=(i)(*) xr=k m hrw pn Dr xAwy=f in.n=(i) n=k stpt(**) (nw?) nw.t * I'm not certain of this one, because the usual formula is iy.n=i xr=k ... and in certain cases, iw/iy distinction seem to have grammatical signifiance (in late egyptian, J. Winan has shown that in 'sw iy', iy is always an infinitive, and in 'sw iw', iw is always the old perfective) ** perhaps the xAst sign is a bad interpretation for a simple 'p' ? a problem for my interpretation is that stp and nw are quite different in hieratic > 12) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m qnb.t mj m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m rsw mHw.t m(j) > as your Akh! Are you in the council? Come as your Akh! Are you > in the South or in the North? Come A question : what council may that be ? > `H`.n b3 Hr nTr.w=f mj t3=k pn srf r Hnq.t=k tn > Then the Ba will be over his gods. Come, (to) this your warm bread, > toward this your warm beer, I have doubt on this interpretation : aHa.n as a auxiliary is supposed to be written with Y1, not with the legs (but the text is at times faulty) ; then it is a narrative construct, which does'nt fit well in the text, and finally I feel there is a parallelism between "qd.n sSAt" and "aHa.n XXX" Do you think something like "aHa.n Khnum (or some other god) Hr nTrwt=f" "Above the goddesses of whom Khnum rose" (a comment : the =f would refer either to the whole complex or to 'pr', not hwt) > > 15) (s)rf.t* r stp.w=k jptn** jrj.n n=k n.y-sw.t mn-m3`.t-r` > toward these your choice-joints which King Menmaatre has prepared > for you, > *change {f} to {s}, otherwise no sense can be made. > **Old Egyptian plural demonstrative. for (*), an alternative (but I prefer your version) : ftft r stp.w=k ... regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 5, rue Beranger 92240 Malakoff tel 01 48 70 37 13 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:54:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene C of Nefertum Chapel Hi, Serge, Thanks for the suggestions. As you can see, some of this is really rather obscure. > > 9) Dd-mdw.w* n xr=k m hrw pn Dr** x3wy=f jnj(.w) n=k nw.t*** nw mj > > A recitation for your countenance on this day until its night. What > > the hunter has hunted, has been brought for you. Come, > (i)w.n=(i)(*) xr=k m hrw pn Dr xAwy=f in.n=(i) n=k stpt(**) (nw?) nw.t I like the jw.n=j explanation. At least it would be something standard and expected. One would have to look at the original reliefs, it is always possible that Mariennte's artist missed a sign. Let's see: "I have come unto you on this day until its evening, having brought for you ..." > ** perhaps the xAst sign is a bad interpretation for a simple 'p' ? a > problem for my interpretation is that stp and nw are quite different in hieratic I do not think it likely. If this were a miswriting of stp.t we would not likely see the nw-pot in it. What would you propose as the meaning in this case? One always has to wonder whether the x3s.t sign is copied correctly, or could it be that the text was emended and that the corrective plaster has fallen out and re-exposed part of a previous rendition of the text? It really is pretty weird isn't it? > > 12) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m qnb.t mj m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m rsw mHw.t m(j) > > as your Akh! Are you in the council? Come as your Akh! Are you > > in the South or in the North? Come > > A question : what council may that be ? That would be the judgement hall of the dead, more than likely. Ptah-Sokar played an almost identical role to that of Osiris, and could hold court in the underworld. > > `H`.n b3 Hr nTr.w=f mj t3=k pn srf r Hnq.t=k tn > > Then the Ba will be over his gods. Come, (to) this your warm bread, > > toward this your warm beer, > > I have doubt on this interpretation : aHa.n as a auxiliary is supposed > to be written with Y1, not with the legs (but the text is at times > faulty) ; then it is a narrative construct, which does'nt fit well in > the text, and finally I feel there is a parallelism between > "qd.n sSAt" and "aHa.n XXX" > > Do you think something like > "aHa.n Khnum (or some other god) Hr nTrwt=f" > "Above the goddesses of whom Khnum rose" > > (a comment : the =f would refer either to the whole complex or to > 'pr', not hwt) Not "Khnum" but maybe "the ram" as an epithet for a cthonic and procreative god such as Banebdjedet, another Osirian deity in the same category with Ptah-Sokar. Or maybe it is a ram of Tatjenen, the one who first arose at the beginning of creation. If I am not mistaken I think Seshat acts together with an earth god like Tatjenen or Geb in the foundation rituals of temple construction such as stretching the cord and digging the trenches for the temple foundations. Can someone plese chek up on this and report back? I almost wonder if the word we are seeing as nTr.w.t really is such. Is there any designation for staves, penants, or banners which can be written like this? What about the term j3.t "standard"? However, there is clearly a gender problem in relatives relating to Hw.t, but we have seen these texts ignore gender before. So you are suggesting: jnj.n Tw rd.wy=k "Your two legs have brought you m3=k pr=k pn that you might see this your house, Hw.t-nTr=k tn this your temple, qdj(.t).n sS3.t which Seshat has built, `H`(.t).n b3 Hr nTr.w.t=f over the [goddesses/staves] of which [the ram] has stood"? Ignoring the genders, I suppose it works. Do you have any other theological explanation for it though? > > 15) (s)rf.t* r stp.w=k jptn** jrj.n n=k n.y-sw.t mn-m3`.t-r` > > toward these your choice-joints which King Menmaatre has prepared > > for you, > > *change {f} to {s}, otherwise no sense can be made. > > **Old Egyptian plural demonstrative. > for (*), an alternative (but I prefer your version) : > ftft r stp.w=k ... Then you would be interpreting it as: ftft r stp.w=k jptn "leap to these your choice-joints"? I am glad you prefer how I had it, because Ptah-Sokar as a god of the dead is usually weary and rarely expends greate energy on gymnastic exercises! ;-P Yours, appreciatively, Geoff sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:41:13 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P5, L.16-20 X-Mailer: VM 6.28 under Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Graham writes: > Mike wrote > > Line 17: > > iwr.ti m Xrd.w xmt n.y ra nb sAXbw > > "She is pregnant with 3 children of Ra, Lord of [a name of a city]" > iw Dd.n=f r=s, iw=sn r iri.t iA.t twy mnx.t m tA pn r Dr=f iw smsw n=sn > im.y r iri.t wr-mA.w m iwnw > > He (Djedi) said about them (sometimes the pronoun =s is substituted for > =sn) (that) they shall exercise this potent office in this entire land, > and their eldest shall become Greatest-of-Seers (High Priest of Re) in > Heliopolis. I would rather suppose that '=f' is Ra himself, (especially if you consider the last part of the story :-) as the 'potent office in the whole country' is most probably kingship. About Mike's question : 'iw=sn r ir.t iA.t twy' is perfectly correct. To exercice an office is said in egyptian 'ir.t '. For example 'ir sS' means 'be a scribe' ; and 'ir.t TAty' means 'to exercice the function of vizir'. ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:39:45 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Learning about Reddjedet ;-P Graham writes: > Hi, > > Moving right along... Mike brought us the following lines which came after > what I had transliterated last time. > > Dd-jn Hm=f > Then His Majesty said; > > mrj=j js st n3 Dd.y=k > "But I want it, what you have told! > > ptr sy t3-rd-Dd.t > Who is she, this Reddjedet?" > I think "Ddy=k" is more probably prospective relative form. As you have translated, we would have Dd.n=k (or perhaps even Dd(t).n=k Hr=f) ; ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:03:59 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Egyptian greetings Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Saida wrote: > > I thought "Hr" means "countenance". > > Only in the sense of "face" > > All right--if > > "xr.t" means "countenance" how is that related to "near, vicinity, > > whereabouts"? And how do those concepts relate to a person's mood? > > However, let us assume that we have "nD xr.t". Since the "xr.t" has to > > be something abstract because of the determinative, obviously it cannot > > be "countenance" as in "face" because a face is not abstract. Stephen: > I think that you are forgetting the plural determinative is there too. > xr.wt = things that are before you => possessions => status Nope. Haven't forgotten. And this also means "destiny, concerns desire". "possessions" are not abstract, really. "status, condition" is, but... (snip) > One thing is to not confuse what the original literal meaning of the > phrase might have been with the meaning that it had acquired as a > greeting ritual phrase. Isn't that just the problem in this short phrase--to determine the original literal meaning? What was it? And aren't we being a bit presumptuous when we say that it had acquired a different meaning as a "greeting ritual phrase"? > An example in English of this sort of thing: > when you say "Hi!" to someone, it is just a formal noise, despite its > origin as "How are you?" and even if you say "How are you?" as a > greeting you don't really think of it literally (at least most people > don't - I can tell because if I actually ANSWER the question they are, > well, almost shocked at my departing from the ritual). > > How these phrases end up at the end of all the flowery phrases I'm not > sure - I think there are some things we just have to say "Well, that's > the way it is, and I'll just have to accept it, until I find some > evidence that tells me why." That's my point--it is out of place in the Westcar as a short and snappy greeting. Also, I don't think it is out of line to say that, in ancient Egypt, as in other places, greetings come first before flowery phrases--that is what "greeting" means--an initiating salutation. And really, a royal prince might exercise his privilge of rank and make snappy comments to a venerated old magician, but Hardedef is the King's son, a man famous in his own right! Which of us today would "greet" a royal prince in anything but the most formal fashion? "Hi" just doesn't do it for me. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:46:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene C of Nefertum Chapel Hi, Stephen, > > > h3 ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f jn-j(w)=k m p.t t3 mj > > > Hail Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall, are you in heaven or (on) > > > earth? Come > > > 12) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m qnb.t mj m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m rsw mHw.t m(j) > > > as your Akh! Are you in the council? Come as your Akh! Are you > > > in the South or in the North? Come > > > > > > 13) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m jmn.t j3b.t mj m 3x=k > > > as your Akh! Are you in the West or the East? Come as your Akh! > > This construction "jn jw=k m A B" looks to me like it should be "Whether > you are in A or B." I can't off-hand find any references to this, but > it seems right. Yes, it seemed right to me, especially when I am familiar whith the Coptic usage of {ene} which comes from this. I do not preently have any grammar books with me at the moment and cannot verify whether or not this construction is attested this early. I decided to play it conservatively lest I was mistaken. > > I've often wondered whether an Akh could be a stellar manifestation > > of the dead king? Faulkner translates it as "the spirit state" in his > > dictionary, but isn't there a related word, Akhw, which means shining > > being? The context here sounds very much like a stellar manifestion is > > to be imagined. > > There is some discussion of the concepts of 3x and 3x iqr as seen by the > villagers of Deir el-Medina (approx. same period of time as these > inscriptions) in lesko (ed.) _Pharaoh's Workers_, 114-5, 124-6. From > this it seems that the closest concept in English is "ghost." Thanks for sharing that. I think that would make sense since it seems to be a shinging image of a person, kind of like a spectre or projection. Though I know you are not suggesting we should, I would like to reiterate to the casual reader that I would still be careful about actually translating the word, not only because we could be wrong, but by translating it we take away from others the realization of exactly which Egyptian concept was being used. When a translation uses terms like "soul", "ghost", or "double", it leaves you wondering whether the original was a Ba, Ka, or Akh. If we all had a standard understanding as to which was which, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. I would tend to see the parts of the soul as follows, though most are probably best left untranslated: b3 Ba "impression" Others have used "soul" (It comes from b3j "make an impression") k3 Ka "lifeforce" Others have used "double" 3x Akh "emanation" Others have used "ghost" (It comes from 3x "be brilliant") Sw.t Shuwt "shadow" People are pretty unanymous on this I think there are others but I can't remember them just now. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:11:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL P. Jumilhac Hi, Stephen, > In the papyrus Jumilhac page that Geoff put up, there are a number of > cases where it appears that isir pw ... ("this is Osiris...") is > paralleled by what I presume is stS pw ... ("This is Seth...") - e.g. > col.15. However the writing of the S is almost square enough to be a > p. Am I correct in interpreting it as S? Technically, yes, I think you are correct. Look at the {p}s in this text. They are tall and narrow with hatch-lines filling them up. The {S} has apparently been shortened to fit niceley in the guide-lines so that stS can be a neat block of text. However, Ptolemaic inscriptions seem to have preferred the smaller form of {S} in this particular word, the one which looks like the {block of stone} determinitative. There might be more to this than what I had originally thought. Here is the history of the writing of this name as I understand it: In the Old Kingdom the name was unambiguously written {stS}. In the Middle Kingdom after /S/ and /X/ began to be written as phonemically differentiated (and after /z/ had collapsed into /s/ for good and one's symbol could alteranate with teh others randomly) this name was unambiguously written as {stX}. During the New Kingdom and later there are various writings of the name as {stX}, {stS}, {swtx}, {stxy}, and finally even {st} and {sty}. What I think was happening was that /X/ was losing its character and first blending with /x/, passing through a stage of being /h/, when it seemed to have blended with the preceeding /t/ and was felt to be a simple aspiration (as witnessed by the Greek {sEth}), and ultimately maybe being lost altogether as weak. If the final consonant had ceased to be pronounced (as Pat Ryan, with access to a Coptic dictionary right now, has recently pointed out that I was wrong about the Coptic form being *sEth as the earlier Greek transcriptions had been, when it is actually written {sEt}) then maybe the Ptolemaic scribes who were examining Old Kingdom texts, and seeing an {S} which they did not presently pronounce, rationalized that it must be some kind of determinative for the name and identified that as the {block of stone}. Anyway, various late texts do seem to use a {block of stone} in the place of the {S}, the {X}, or any of its later permutations. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:26:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Scene D of Nefertum Chapel Hi, First let me make some comments on the iconography of scene D, and then attempt a translation of its texts. Scene D is mostly iconography with small amounts of text. It consists of the king offering heaping piles of food to several gods in a shrine. The god at the back of the shrine is Nefertum. On the opposite wall the same position is occupied by Sekhmet (Scene F). Probably this reflected the real arrangement of statues in the chapel. The back wall also had these same deities in the same positions, and one can infer that the focus of the chapel was on side-by-side statues of Sekhmet and Nefertum, with Nefertum on the right and Sekhmet on the left. In both cases, there is also a statue of the king as a sphinx interacting with the the deity. In the case of Scene F, he is presenting the Hen-emblem to Sekhmet, and, probably in return for such, on this scene, he is receiving the flail from Nefertum. Nefertum also holds a sound-eye emblem to his breast. It is possible that this is the Horus-Eye offering with which the king has just presented him, or it might indicate a special iconographic relationship between Nefertum and the moon. Other lunar associations in this chapel will be noted. Notice that in scene E1, Nefertum also holds the sound-eye to his breast. Notice the lotus standard in its own smaller shrine right behind the sphinx. Having examined the original relief, I know Mariette's drawing to be incorrect. There is a crescent moon atop the lotus of the emblem and above that is a large hole in the wall so one cannot tell whether the full moon's disk might not have sat upon this. More than likely some lines of text are lost at this point too. I have also been allowed to examine Calverly and Broome's unpublished watercolor of this scene, and can confirm that the crescent is actually there. My forthcoming article in YES 6 will have a line-drawing from a photo of the actual scene. The top of the shrine is not visible at all but is apparently here reconstructed by Mariette's artist's imagination. The lunar motifs on the emblem probably also relate to the epithet used for Thoth, who is enthroned in front of the emblem, in line 5 ("bearing his brilliance"). Previous scholars have translated this phrase as "beneath his moringa-tree" but this makes little sense. Since Thoth is a deity associated with the moon, one can easily expect an epithet such as the one I have proposed. At any rate this particular manifestation of Thoth was expecially venerated in Memphis, as can be scene in some lists of Memphite gods both in this temple and at Medinet Habu. All of the deities represented in this scene are statuary and not supposed to be actual manifestations of the deities in their flesh. You can tell this because each one of them is represented as standing or seated upon a pedestal. Only the King is represented as actually present in the room since he kneels directly on the floor. Notice also that among the statuary depicted in the chapel scenes there are often small statuettes of the king making offerings before the images. For instance look at the very bottom right-hand corner of the shrine in this scene. Also notice the two statuettes at the base of the Nefertum-emblem in the middle of the shrine. Here is my rendition of Scene D of the nefertum Chapel: The falcon-headed mummy standing at the front of the shrine: 1) zkr Hr.y-jb Hw.t-nfr-tmw dj=f `nx w3s n nb t3.wy mn-m3`.t-r` Sokar who resides in the mansion of Nefertum when he says; "life and dominion to the Lord of the Two Lands, Menmaatre!" The lion-headed god making motions of support to the mummiform god: 2) Dd-mdw.w jn nfr-tmw A recitation by Nefertum 3) dj.n=j n=k Hw I have given you utterance* *as a capacity like the name of the god Hu(?) 4) 3x.w* D.t D.t and benefits forever and ever. *this text mixes birds, or Mariette's artist could not distinguish them. The ibis-headed mummiform god seated on a throne: 5) DHwty Xr.y b3q=f Hr.y-jb Hw.t-nfr-tmw Thoth, bearing his brilliance, who resides in the mansion of Nefertum 6) dj=f nxt nb n 7) nb x`j.w stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH he causes the lord of Diadems, Sety beloved of Ptah to become victorious. The Nefertum-emblem* in its shrine on a sledge: 8) nfr-tmw Nerertum 9) xr=f unto him* *this seems to be the end of something lost in the hole in the wall mentioned above in my iconography notes. The sphinx on a pedestal: 10) nTr nfr mn-m3`.t-r` The good god, menmaatre 11) z3-r` stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH Son of Re, Sety Beloved of Ptah. The figure of a seated lion-headed god holding a sound-eye and offering a flagellum toward the sphinx: 12) Dd-mdw.w jn nfr-tmw A recitation by Nefertum 13) Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r` who resides in the mansion of Menmaatre; 14) dj.n=j n=k rnp.w.t I have given you years 15) 3w.t-jb mj-r` hrw nb and happiness like Re every day. Resume over King offering meals before the shrine: 16) Dd-mdw.w jn nb t3.wy mn-m3`.t-r` A recitation by Lord of the Two Lands, Menmaatre, 17) Dd-mdw.w jn nb x`j.w stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH A recitation by Lord of Diadems, Sety beloved of Ptah; 18) Htp dj n.y-sw.t zk(r) T3z p3w.t Hr x3w.t A boon which the king gives (to) Sokar, arranging bread upon the altar 19) Htp dj n.y-sw.t zk(r) T3z p3w.t Hr x3w.t A boon which the king gives (to) Sokar, arranging bread upon the altar 20) Htp dj n.y-sw.t zk(r) T3z p3w.t Hr x3w.t A boon which the king gives (to) Sokar, arranging bread upon the altar 21) m dd n.y-sw.t jrj.t 3x.w.t* as the largesse of a king who does what is beneficial. *emend to {Akh-bird} 22) nb t3.wy mn-m3`.t-r` z3-r` s-Htp jb n msj.w-sw Lord of the Two Lands, son of Re, who appeases the desire of the One-Who-Engendered-Him nb x`j.w stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH jrj=f dj.w `nx mj-r` Lord of Diadems, Sety beloved of Ptah when he achieves (the state of) Endowed-of-Life like Re. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:34:10 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL How Do You Do?? Serge Rosmorduc wrote: > Saida writes: > > rocognize the way to the portal of the One Who Clothes the Weary..." > > And then "How do you do, prince?" It just doesn't seem to fit with the > > narrative in both cases. Shouldn't "How Do You Do" come first in the > > normal course of things? Also, why wouldn't it be "xrt=k" if it were > > the prince's health or condition which was being asked after?Serge: > > A rather good interpretation of this line is supposing it to be a > comment by the text's narrator : then you have : > > Greetings from Djedefhor > nD-xrt imAxy pw > => "it is the salutation for a venerable one" > greetings from Djedji > nD-xrt sA-nswt pw > => "it is the salutation for a prince" Very interesting, Serge. This certainly makes more sense than "How do you do?" I mean, under the circumstances, why wouldn't the men say to each other "Pti tri xrt=k" (What then is thy condition?) Wouldn't that be more polite, anyway? Or is that a later interrogative form? I found it in the Book of the Dead. Can you explain, though, the justification for reading "it is the salutation for " from "nD xrt"? Isn't the "nD" (as in "(i)nD Hr" and having the meaning of "homage" or "salutation" always spelled with the *snake*? And how would the "xrt" come into it in that interpretation? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:04:46 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P5, L.16-20 Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > REGARDING West. P5, L.16-20 > > Thanks to Geoff's transliteration the story moves on! The king has just asked > Djedi "Who is this Redjedjet?? Here is my attempt at translating the last > lines of page 5. > [Mike D-S]. > > Line 16: > Dd-in Ddi, "Hm.t wab pw n.y ra nb sAXbw" > Then said Djedi, " She is the wife of a (wab-)priest of Ra, > Lord of [sAXbw=a name of a city]" > NOTES: I can't find the name of the city in Faulkner. S3xbw is in Lower Egypt-- Nome 2. > The spoken sentence conforms to a typical bipartite nominal > pattern > where the 'pw' has moved up and into the nominal clause (Wife of a priest of > Ra). > The extra title, 'Lord of SAXbw' is tacked on the end (in apposition). > > Line 17: > iwr.ti m Xrd.w xmt n.y ra nb sAXbw > "She is pregnant with 3 children of Ra, Lord of [a name of a city]" > NOTES: The first verb is a stative form. This sentence I suppose really > follows on (since the subject of the stative always comes before the verb), so > should be rendered, "Who is..." . The subject is found way back in the > previous line ('pw' = she). > > Lines 18-20: > iw Dd n=f r=s, "iw=sn r iri.t iA.t twy mnx.t m tA pn r Dr=f > iw smsw n=sn im.y r iri.t wr-mA.w m iwnw" > > He (ie. Ra) told (to) her "They shall be appointed potent positions (offices) > within this (entire) land. The eldest of them therein will be made(/become/be > appointed) Greatest of Seers in On (Heliopolis). > NOTES: > The transliteration of the first verb probably needs a dot after Dd, Dd.n=f, > so past tense form (sDm.n=f). OK? > wr-mA.w = a very high priestly position > I don't like my translation of the first sentence. It is all nominal, with an > infinitive (r iri.t) followed by nouns and adjectives. I don't quite > understand how they fit together,ie. I expected an 'r' or 'm' after 'r iri.t', > be appointed TO high offices. Also, what is the significance of 'twy'? (why > use that particulary pronoun?). I like better "it is said of them" or "of whom it is said". 'twy" is necessary here because the positions of the children will be over the entire "land". Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:42:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Scene C of Nefertum Chapel OK, I gather that some silent people are interested. It would be nice to discuss a bit too. Surely someone out there is translating and has some other ideas than the ones I am proposing. Scene C is a much longer text than either A or B. I am sorry that the copy did not come out very well in certain places. I hope that with this transliteration you will be able to fill in any small blank spots in the the image. The scene consists of Sety kneeling to the far left and reciting a prayer to Sokar who is enshrined at the far right. Begin the text with the part over the god: 1) Dd-mdw.w jn zkr A Recitation by Sokar 2) Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r` who resides in the mansion of Menmaatre: 3) dj.n=j n=k "I have given you 4) qnj.t nb(.t) all valor 6) snb nb and all health." Resume over the king: The next line is the horizontal one above the King and his inscriptions. This is the label to the entire scene: 7) Dd-mdw.w (j)n Xr.y-Hb n jt=f zkr nb t3.wy mn-m3`.t-r` A recitation by the Lector-priest to his father Sokar, the Lord of the Two Lands, Menmaatre. jnj.t nTr r Sbw=f j=f r nTr wdn=f jx.t Hr xrw=f Bringing the god to his food when he invokes the god, and he offers things with his voice. Now resume in the columns under line 7: 8) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t mn-m3`.t-r` n jt=fzkr Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r` A recitation by King Menmaatre to his father Sokar who resides in the mansion of Menmaatre; nD-Hr=k ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f "Greetings (to) you, Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall. 9) Dd-mdw.w* n xr=k m hrw pn Dr** x3wy=f jnj(.w) n=k nw.t*** nw mj A recitation for your countenance on this day until its night. What the hunter has hunted, has been brought for you. Come, *{w} makes no sense here, and must be part of Dd-mdw.w(?) **the {cup} should be the {bundle of flax}. ***This {desert} sign must be a mistake. (?) (Clearly there are problems in this line. I am not sure I have solved them adequately.) 10) jrj=j n=k nw.n* Hrw n jt=f 3sjrj `3j.n=f jm w3S.n=f jm that I might prepare for you what Horus hunted for his father Osiris, through which he became great, through which he became honored, *{eye} determinative is by analogy with nw "see", maybe "sought". 11) xpr.n=f jm m xnt(.y)-jmn.t(.y.w) through which he became Chief of the Westerners. h3 ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f jn-j(w)=k m p.t t3 mj Hail Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall, are you in heaven or (on) earth? Come 12) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m qnb.t mj m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m rsw mHw.t m(j) as your Akh! Are you in the council? Come as your Akh! Are you in the South or in the North? Come 13) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m jmn.t j3b.t mj m 3x=k as your Akh! Are you in the West or the East? Come as your Akh! jnj.n Tw rd.wy=k m3=k pr=k pn Your legs have brought you that you might see this your house, 14) Hw.t-nTr=k tn n qdj.n sS3.t this your temple of Seshat's* building *goddess of writing, plans, and construction. `H`.n b3 Hr nTr.w=f mj t3=k pn srf r Hnq.t=k tn Then the Ba will be over his gods. Come, (to) this your warm bread, toward this your warm beer, 15) (s)rf.t* r stp.w=k jptn** jrj.n n=k n.y-sw.t mn-m3`.t-r` toward these your choice-joints which King Menmaatre has prepared for you, *change {f} to {s}, otherwise no sense can be made. **Old Egyptian plural demonstrative. m jH m 3pd.w h3 from ox and foul. Hail 16) ptH zkr rsw.y-jnb=f jj.n(=j) zxn=j Tw Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall, it is that I might embrace you that I have come. jn-j(w)=k m p.t mj znj n=k mw.t=k nw.t Are you in Heaven? Come, your Mother Nut has undone for you 17) rw.t.y qbH.w jn-j(w)=k m t3 mj znj n=k jt=k gb rw.t.y the double doors of the cool-water. Are you on earth? Come, your father Geb has undone for you the double doors. jn-j(w)=k m 3x.t.y rsw.y.t mHw.t.y.t Are you in the Southern, Northern, 18) jmnt.y.t j3b.t.y.t mj jwj=k jm m Htp Western, or Eastern horizons? Come, that you might come in peace.* *i.e. "be welcome". sxm=k* m D.t=k nxbxb.n=k 3x.t Your force is in your body, for you have opened the horizon! *The {Nefertum-emblem} has been used for the {sekhem-scepter}. 19) wn r sbx.t Hw.t-nTr n ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f Open the portal of the temple of Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall, prj=k jm b3.tj 3x.tj sxm.t(j) Htm.(j) that you might emerge therefrom, distinguished, enlightened, empowered, and provisioned 20) m nTr gmj=k wj w`b.kw-jb n=k j=j as a god. You shall find me purified of heart for you when I invoke ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f nb `nx-t3.wy Ptah-Sokar, south of his wall, lord of Memphis 21) b3 m Htm.t Ba with provision(s), 22) m nTr s-rwD=f as a god whom he strengthens 23) m jr.t Hrw wd3.t* with the sound eye of Horus *the {vulture} should be a {quail chick}. 24) xr nb t3.wy mn-3`.t-r` from the Lord of the Two Lands Menmaatre. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:45:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P5, L.16-20 Hi, Mike, You are getting better and better every time. > Line 16: > Dd-in Ddi, "Hm.t wab pw n.y ra nb sAXbw" > Then said Djedi, " She is the wife of a (wab-)priest of Ra, > Lord of [sAXbw=a name of a city]" > NOTES: I can't find the name of the city in Faulkner. This is a hapax legomenon, and we just call it "Sakhebu" in English. The location of the town is believed to be in the Western Delta someplace. > Line 17: > iwr.ti m Xrd.w xmt n.y ra nb sAXbw > "She is pregnant with 3 children of Ra, Lord of [a name of a city]" > NOTES: The first verb is a stative form. This sentence I suppose really > follows on (since the subject of the stative always comes before the verb), so > should be rendered, "Who is..." . The subject is found way back in the > previous line ('pw' = she). Yes, this has to be part of the same sentence. You are right. > Lines 18-20: > iw Dd n=f r=s, "iw=sn r iri.t iA.t twy mnx.t m tA pn r Dr=f > iw smsw n=sn im.y r iri.t wr-mA.w m iwnw" > > He (ie. Ra) told (to) her "They shall be appointed potent positions (offices) > within this (entire) land. The eldest of them therein will be made(/become/be > appointed) Greatest of Seers in On (Heliopolis). OK, here you have problems. You are right, I guess there needs to be a dot in Dd.n=f. It should say: iw Dd.n=f r=s, iw=sn r iri.t iA.t twy mnx.t m tA pn r Dr=f iw smsw n=sn im.y r iri.t wr-mA.w m iwnw He (Djedi) said about them (sometimes the pronoun =s is substituted for =sn) (that) they shall exercise this potent office in this entire land, and their eldest shall become Greatest-of-Seers (High Priest of Re) in Heliopolis. twy is an Old Egyptian demonstrative (pwy, twy, nwy). ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:05:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Egyptian greetings Hi, Marianne, > only got the *scroll* after "xrt". Clearly then, the "xrt" is the > abstract term. However, I have a feeling that "xrt" might not have the > meaning of health or state or anything connected with that concept. xr.t is "countenance". It is related to the preposition xr "near". It probably literally means "vicinity/whereabouts" as a kind of indirect way of refering to one's "person/mood/". The > "nD" part does seem to be "ask", though. It bothers me, as I said > before, that the phrase should be just "ask health" instead of "ask your > health". If I saw an attestation of "nD xrt=k" I might feel > differently. You will find plenty of examples of it in letters. It is very common in the Late Ramesside Letters, but of course those are Late Egyptian. I can't remember if it is used in the Heqanakht letters or not, since I have not read those in years, but it is such a standard phrase in Egyptian, that there simply is no question of its meaning. The difference is that this text is recounting daily speach and conversation, which is not all that common, since most inscriptions recount historical events or list peoples titles. You have to look into letters and literature with dialogue to get these kinds of expressions. If we studied Egyptian like we do French, Spanish, and German in school, we would have learned this phrase on our first day of class, but unfortunately Egyptian is not a spoken language so we learn it all backwards. Some simple greetings are: j-nD Hr=k "hello"/"Hi, you!" xr `=k "How are you?" "jj.tj m Htp" "welcome!" It is best to just learn them, and move on. Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:13:33 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL West. P5, L.16-20 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL West. P5, L.16-20 Geoff wrote: > iw Dd.n=f r=s, .... >"He (Djedi) said about them (sometimes the pronoun > =s is substituted for =sn) (that) .... Is it not possible that Ra told her about her children since he was the father? What makes this unlikely/impossible? Perhaps the use of a pronoun (=f) for a god? [I must admit, I may have been influenced in my translation by a much later story, about a virgin birth.] Second question: I believe a wab-priest is pretty low on the pecking order of priestly ranks. If so, is this a deliberate feature to show that the gods children can be borne out of (relatively) simple stock? What is the likely motive for this feature of the story? Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:30:57 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Egyptian greetings Geoff Graham wrote: > > j-nD Hr=k "hello"/"Hi, you!" > xr `=k "How are you?" > "jj.tj m Htp" "welcome!" > > It is best to just learn them, and move on. That is one approach. But I like to examine things that don't make sense to me to see *why* they don't make sense. Or maybe they will ultimately make sense. You have to admit that, if people just learned things and moved on, no progress would ever have been made in this field of Egyptian philology. That is not to say I am capable of contributing to the progression--just my own progress! Marianne Luban Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: piscator@nwlink.com To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A Transliteration Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 00:28:08 GMT Thank you Geff To someone like me who is attempting to learn to read hieroglyphs without an instructor such transliterations and explanations are a great help. On Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:51:13 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >Please give me feedback as to whether this kind of transliteration post >is useful to you. I do not know precisely what level the readership is >and what you need in order to be able to work best. Good luck and have >fun translating.=20 > >Yours, Geoff Graham >sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu > ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:36:32 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene C of Nefertum Chapel Dear Geoff and Osirians: It is cases like this where extra-Egyptian sources can be very helpful in interpretation: > > > > I've often wondered whether an Akh could be a stellar > manifestation > > > of the dead king? Faulkner translates it as "the spirit state" in > his > > > dictionary, but isn't there a related word, Akhw, which means > shining > > > being? The context here sounds very much like a stellar > manifestion is > > > to be imagined. > > > > There is some discussion of the concepts of 3x and 3x iqr as seen by > the > > villagers of Deir el-Medina (approx. same period of time as these > > inscriptions) in lesko (ed.) _Pharaoh's Workers_, 114-5, 124-6. > From > > this it seems that the closest concept in English is "ghost." > > I would tend to see the parts of the soul as follows, though most > are probably best left untranslated: > > b3 Ba "impression" Others have used "soul" > (It comes from b3j "make an impression") > k3 Ka "lifeforce" Others have used "double" > 3x Akh "emanation" Others have used "ghost" > (It comes from 3x "be brilliant") > Sw.t Shuwt "shadow" People are pretty unanymous on this > b3 = "gleam", the light that leaves one's eyes at death (reflectivity), and, if all goes well, appears as a star in the night sky; IE 5. bher-, "shiny"; b3="impression"? another word that does not seem to be in Faulkner! k3="reputation" (this explains the glyph of the arms lifted in praise); IE 2. kar, "praise loudly"; in view of 3x3x, "stars" (Pyramid 1143), and 3x.t, "flame", and 3xw, "sunlight", the common denominator seems to be "shine"; but, if IE ar(e)g[^]-, "whitish, gleaming" is related (cf. 3x.t, "eye of god") is related, we may be able to pin it down a little further to "gleaming white". This would mean that 3x is properly *i3x. Sw.t="shadow" can be seen in IE g[w]he:i-wo-s, Greek phais, "shimmering, dim, brownish, gray". Pat -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 01:46:26 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Marc Line Subject: Re: AEL Scene C of Nefertum Chapel Hi Geoff You appealed: >If I am not mistaken I think >Seshat acts together with an earth god like Tatjenen or Geb in the >foundation rituals of temple construction such as stretching the cord and >digging the trenches for the temple foundations. Can someone plese chek >up on this and report back? sSA.t, if I am correct, might be considered to be a feminine principle equivalent to DHwty, to whom she was married according to some accounts. She performs similar functions in terms of measuring time, writing and keeping records, keeping royal accounts and audits of tribute etc. She did indeed play a part in foundation rituals, helping pharaoh with the layout planning and foundation construction. She is commonly depicted as a horned goddess wearing a panther-skin robe and a headband with a 7(?) pointed star on a stick. She holds a palette, pen and occasionally a tally-stick. Best regards Marc Line (marc@bosagate.demon.co.uk) ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:27:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene C of Nefertum Chapel Hi, Marc, Thanks for the information. > sSA.t, if I am correct, might be considered to be a feminine principle > equivalent to DHwty, to whom she was married according to some accounts. > She performs similar functions in terms of measuring time, writing and > keeping records, keeping royal accounts and audits of tribute etc. She > did indeed play a part in foundation rituals, helping pharaoh with the > layout planning and foundation construction. She is commonly depicted > as a horned goddess wearing a panther-skin robe and a headband with a > 7(?) pointed star on a stick. She holds a palette, pen and occasionally > a tally-stick. I actually was not asking for information on Seshat, but on which deities act with her during the ceremonies to found a new temple. My recollection says that Tatjenen or Geb also participated in this riter, but I have no way to verify this at the moment. I do appreciate the help however! ;-) Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:01:43 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P6, L 1- 3 To: to AEL REGARDING West. P6, L 1- 3 Westcar: The story moves on to the next (AEL) page. Djedi has just told the king the 3 sons of rd-Dd.t are going to become men of power and influence. I wonder how the king takes the news.... P6, L1 wn-in Hm=f ib=f* wA.w** r Dwi.t Hr=s "And then his majesty's heart fell into sadness concerning it" NOTES: an interesting sentence. Can someone give a reason for the 'wn-in=f stative' construction? You could have used 'ib n.y Hm=f' for 'the heart of his majesty' but would it then create a problem with the following stative (?), ie. ambiguity about which noun is the subject of the stative. * (lit. his majesty, his heart) ** (stative form of the verb 'wa', to fall 'r' into a condition) P6, L2 Dd-in Ddi ptr ir=f pA-ib it.y anx.w wDA.w snb.w nb=i "Then said Djedi, "What is the matter (lit. the heart) sovereign, l.p.h., my lord, ..." P6, L3 in iri.tw Hr pA-Xrd.w xmt "....???? concerning the the 3 children. NOTES: OK, I'm lost on the meaning of 'in iri.tw'. I can see the components; 'in', an enclitic particle; and 'iri.tw' which looks like a passive construction of 'iri', to do/make etc. If it refers back to the 'heart/mind' of the sovereign', then it would be something like: "What does the heart/mind (snip out the epithets) indeed (one) make concerning the 3 children". I suppose the passive is used because you only address the king indirectly. P6, L 4 Dd.n=i kA zA=k kA zA=f kA wa im=s "I said (?), ? your son, ? his son, ? one by her? NOTES: well I'm having problems here. Initially I thought, how can a sentence start off in the first person, but then I realised the sentence continues Djedi's previous discourse. He has asked what the problem is (seeing the king's facial expression I suspect), then tried to explain with "I said.....". The meaning would appear to be something like: "I said, one will be your son, one will be his (ie. Ra's) son, and one will be hers." Unfortunately I can't work what 'kA' is. Not the verb 'think about, plan'? Not feeling I got far with this one.... Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:48:06 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL West. P6, L 1- 3 Michael Dyall-Smith writes: > REGARDING West. P6, L 1- 3 > > wn-in Hm=f ib=f* wA.w** r Dwi.t Hr=s > "And then his majesty's heart fell into sadness concerning it" > > NOTES: an interesting sentence. Can someone give a reason for the 'wn-in=f > stative' construction? You could have used 'ib n.y Hm=f' for 'the heart of his > majesty' but would it then create a problem with the following stative (?), The construct X ib=f (or some other part of the body) is well attested ; I don't think it has some relationship with the stative which ; follows. The reason for this stative, I think, is that the sadness ; of the king is the direct result of Djedji's announce. > P6, L3 > in iri.tw Hr pA-Xrd.w xmt ... You might be right about the =tw being used for the king. Remember that in later times, the usage of =tw for the king is very frequent. Now the question is 'what is the form of iri ?' (Lots of other possibilities exist : for example, you might have a nominal sentence : in ( iri.t Hr pA 3 Xrd Dd.n=i (pw ommited)) Is it the case that it is a thing done because of...) Also remember that 'in' is used for a yes or no question, and try to cut another way, for example like this : pty irf pA ib ity aws nb=i ? in ir=tw Hr pA 3 Xrd Dd.n=i (He could have added "Hr=sn") ? kA sA=k kA sA=f kA wa im=sn 'Dd.n=i' being a relative form, with 'pA 3 Xrd' as antecedent. Note also that 'pA 3 Xrd' is singular. In Egyptian, when a name is preceded by a number, it is singular. Grammaticaly, the name is *the number*, not the following substantive. compare with english : 'a pair of trousers'. > one will be his (ie. Ra's) son, and one will be hers." Unfortunately I can't > work what 'kA' is. Not the verb 'think about, plan'? Etymologically, yes ; but it is here the auxilliary which occurs in kA sDm=f/sDm.kA=f construction. Have a look at Gardiner parag. 242. (For those who haven't got a grammar, try to translate by 'then'). regards, Serge Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:07:45 +0300 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Dan-El Kahn Subject: Re: AEL West. P6, L 1- 3 At 10:01 PM 8/20/97 +1100, you wrote: > REGARDING West. P6, L 1- 3 > >Westcar: The story moves on to the next (AEL) page. Djedi has just told the >king the 3 sons of rd-Dd.t are going to become men of power and influence. I >wonder how the king takes the news.... > >P6, L1 > >wn-in Hm=f ib=f* wA.w** r Dwi.t Hr=s >"And then his majesty's heart fell into sadness concerning it" > >NOTES: an interesting sentence. Can someone give a reason for the 'wn-in=f >stative' construction? You could have used 'ib n.y Hm=f' for 'the heart of his >majesty' but would it then create a problem with the following stative (?), >ie. ambiguity about which noun is the subject of the stative. >* (lit. his majesty, his heart) >** (stative form of the verb 'wa', to fall 'r' into a condition) > >P6, L2 >Dd-in Ddi ptr ir=f pA-ib it.y anx.w wDA.w snb.w nb=i > "Then said Djedi, "What is the matter (lit. the heart) sovereign, l.p.h., my >lord, ..." > >P6, L3 > in iri.tw Hr pA-Xrd.w xmt >"....???? concerning the the 3 children. >NOTES: OK, I'm lost on the meaning of 'in iri.tw'. I can see the components; >'in', an enclitic particle; and 'iri.tw' which looks like a passive >construction of 'iri', to do/make etc. If it refers back to the 'heart/mind' >of the sovereign', then it would be something like: "What does the heart/mind >(snip out the epithets) indeed (one) make concerning the 3 children". I >suppose the passive is used because you only address the king indirectly. > >P6, L 4 >Dd.n=i kA zA=k kA zA=f kA wa im=s > >"I said (?), ? your son, ? his son, ? one by her? > >NOTES: well I'm having problems here. Initially I thought, how can a sentence >start off in the first person, but then I realised the sentence continues >Djedi's previous discourse. He has asked what the problem is (seeing the >king's facial expression I suspect), then tried to explain with "I said.....". >The meaning would appear to be something like: "I said, one will be your son, >one will be his (ie. Ra's) son, and one will be hers." Unfortunately I can't >work what 'kA' is. Not the verb 'think about, plan'? > >Not feeling I got far with this one.... > >Mike Dyall-Smith >Melbourne >mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au > hello everybody > > in iri.tw Hr pA-Xrd.w xmt is it happening because of the three children? in is an interogative particle, iri.tw is passive, though I don't know if it is past , present or impersonal (royal) wn-in Hm=f ib=f* wA.w** r Dwi.t Hr=s I guess the scribe wants to emphasize that it is the "emotional" heart-ib that fell into sadness. by the way, were does the verb wA r come from. does it originally mean to fall, or does it have to do with being far from or is it a curse or to conspire? Depuydt has got a good chapter on the kA form in conjunction, contiguity, contingency!!, new-york, 1993. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:39:55 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Marc Line Subject: Re: AEL Scene C of Nefertum Chapel Hi Geoff You wrote: >I actually was not asking for information on Seshat, but on which deities >act with her during the ceremonies to found a new temple. My recollection >says that Tatjenen or Geb also participated in this riter, but I have no >way to verify this at the moment. I do appreciate the help however! ;-) A pleasure Geoff. For some reason. whilst typing the Seshat info, the words "Grandma" and "sucking" came to mind! ;)) I don't know about Tatjenen or Geb being involved in that ritual but given that Geb is a primary supporter of the reigning Pharaoh, it would come as no surprise to learn that he/they had a role. This is a tad off-topic on this list so I'll be brief. As far as I know those involved with the foundation ritual were: Seshat - The King - Ha - Horus (at Edfu anyway) Best regards Marc Line (marc@bosagate.demon.co.uk) ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:16:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Revisions and Catch-up Hello, I have had a private request for tranliterations and translations of the parts of the Nefertum Chapel which we have already covered. Because I have gone back over these texts and found some more answers to some of the problems we encountered the first time, I am going to re-send the texts with revisions so that those of you who want this information will all get a chance to see it. Look for these posts shortly. Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:23:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Nefertum B 1) Dd-mdw.w jn nfr-tmw nb k3.w Hrw-Hkn.w ///////// A recitation by Nefertum, lord of Ka's, Horus of Acclamations, [......] 2) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t bj.t.y mn-m3`.t-r` z3-r` stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH A recitation by King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Menmaatre, Son of Re Sety beloved of Ptah 3) n jt=f nfr-tmw hr.y-jb Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r`; "dw3(=j)-nTr Htp Htp Hr to his father, Nefertum who residing in the Mansion of Menmaatre: Adoration of the God: "Be content, be content because of 4) b`H.t=f Htp nfr-tmw Hr b`H.t=f his bounty! May Nefertum be content with his bounty! 5) z3w p.t rmn=k r t3 Ts-pXr Hn n.y-sw.t Guardian of Heaven, (let) your hand (be) upon the earth and vice versa! The King approaches 6) m `nx jw=j w`b=kw with life! I am pure!" ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 02:10:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Nefertum C 1) Dd-mdw.w jn zkr A Recitation by Sokar 2) Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r` residing in the Mansion of Menmaatre: 3) dj.n=j n=k "I have given you 4) qnj.t nb(.t) all force 6) snb nb and all health." 7) Dd-mdw.w (j)n Xr.y-Hb n jt=f zkr nb t3.wy mn-m3`.t-r` A recitation by the Lector-priest to his father Sokar, the Lord of the Two Lands, Menmaatre: jnj.t nTr r Sbw=f j=f r nTr wdn=f jx.t Hr xrw=f Bringing the God to His Food: he cries out to the god, and he offers things with his voice. 8) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t mn-m3`.t-r` n jt=fzkr Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r` A recitation by King Menmaatre to his father Sokar residing in the Mansion of Menmaatre; nD-Hr=k ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f "Greetings to you, Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall. 9) (j)w.n(=j) xr=k m hrw pn Dr x3wy=f jnj=j n=k nw.t nw mj It is that I might bring you what the hunter traps that I have come unto you this day until its night! Come 10) jrj=j n=k nw.n Hrw n jt=f 3sjrj `3j.n=f jm w3S.n=f jm that I might prepare for you what Horus hunted for his father Osiris, through which he became great, through which he became honored, 11) xpr.n=f jm m xnt(.y)-jmn.t(.y.w) through which he became Chief of the Westerners. h3 ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f jn-j(w)=k m p.t t3 mj Hail Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall! Whether you are in heaven or (on) earth, come 12) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m qnb.t mj m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m rsw mHw.t m(j) as your Akh! If you are in the council, come as your Akh! If you are in the South or in the North, come 13) m 3x=k jn-j(w)=k m jmn.t j3b.t mj m 3x=k as your Akh! Whether you are in the West or the East, come as your Akh! jnj.n Tw rd.wy=k m3=k pr=k pn It is that you might see this your house that your legs have brought you 14) Hw.t-nTr=k tn n qdj.n sS3.t (as well as) this your temple of Seshat's building, `H`.n b3 Hr j3.w.t=f mj t3=k pn srf r Hnq.t=k tn on the standards of which the Ba has arisen! Come, (to) this your warm bread, to this your warm beer, 15) (s)rf.t r stp.w=k jptn jrj.n n=k n.y-sw.t mn-m3`.t-r` to these your choice-joints which King Menmaatre has prepared for you, m jH m 3pd.w h3 from ox and foul. Hail 16) ptH zkr rsw.y-jnb=f jj.n(=j) zxn=j Tw Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall! It is that I might embrace you that I have come! jn-j(w)=k m p.t mj znj n=k mw.t=k nw.t If you are in heaven, come, for your Mother Nut has undone for you 17) rw.t.y qbH.w jn-j(w)=k m t3 mj znj n=k jt=k gb rw.t.y the double doors of the cool-water. If you are on earth, come, for your father Geb has undone for you the double doors. jn-j(w)=k m 3x.t.y rsw.y.t mHw.t.y.t Whether you are in the Southern, Northern, 18) jmnt.y.t j3b.t.y.t mj jwj=k jm m Htp Western, or Eastern horizons, come, that you might be welcome, sxm=k* m D.t=k nxbxb(.w) n=k 3x.t that your force might be in your body! The horizon has opened up for you! 19) wn r sbx.t Hw.t-nTr n ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f Open the portal of the temple of Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall, prj=k jm b3j.tj 3x.tj sxm.t(j) Htm.(j) that you might emerge therefrom, distinguished, enlightened, empowered, and provisioned 20) m nTr gmj=k wj w`b.kw-jb n=k j=j as a god. You shall find me pure of heart for you when I invoke ptH-zkr rsw.y-jnb=f nb `nx-t3.wy Ptah-Sokar South of His Wall, the Lord of Memphis, 21) b3j m Htm.t Ba with provision(s), 22) m nTr s-rwD=f as a god whom he strengthens 23) m jr.t Hrw wd3.t with the Sound Eye of Horus 24) xr nb t3.wy mn-3`.t-r` from the Lord of the Two Lands, Menmaatre. ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:17:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Nefertum A 1) Dd-mdw.w jn zkr A recitation by Sokar 2) Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r` residing in the Mansion of Menmaatre: 3) dj.n(=j) n=k "I have given you 4) nxt nb every victory 5) 3w.t-jb nb(.t) and all happiness." 6) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t mn-m3`.t-r` A recitation by King Menmaatre, 7) z3-r` nb x`j.w stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH Son of Re, Lord of Diadems, Sety, beloved of Ptah: 8) mj n=k sw jTj=j n r3=k : jrT.t : wsx snw Accept it, that which I take to your mouth! *Two bowls of milk* 9) mj n=k jr.t=k wpj=j r3=k jm=s : nwd : snw Accept your eye, that your mouth might be opened with it! *Two unguents* 10) mj n=k mzj.w wr.t-Hk3.w : h3sD w` Accept what Werethekau extends! *One "Hasedj"-vessel* 11) mj n=k mw bz3 jm.y mnD.wy mw.t=k : mw mns xmnw Accept the protective fluid from the breasts of your mother! *Eight "Mensa"-jars* ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 20:10:55 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar Site To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar Site The westcar site has been spruced up again. I think we have sorted out a the problems with the files for downloading the entire site. I have now split the site in into two files (instructions provided) which should make the process less traumatic. Let me know if you experience problems. BTW, Could I remind westcar-philes to put their names at the bottom of their posts. This makes identifying the author much easier for me when I put the material into the commentary of westcar. Thanks. Regards Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:45:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Nefertum URL It has also been privately pointed out to me that I have not re-announced the URL for the website of the Nefertum Chapel images. The URL is: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html There is also a zip file of all the scenes available for downloading from the AEL Webpage thanks to Mark Wilson. That URL for that is: http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ Geoff Graham ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:25:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Helping Verbs and Numerals Hi, all, I am sorry it sometimes takes me so long to respond. Good job, Mike! Thanks for the comments, Serge. > > wn-in Hm=f ib=f* wA.w** r Dwi.t Hr=s > > "And then his majesty's heart fell into sadness concerning it" Remember that wnn is a verb of its own and does not always have to be a helping verb. Literally the sentence says: "Then His Majesty was (in the condition such that) his heart was fallen to badness over it." Dwj.t is ambiguous, and can mean evil as well as sadness, and given what happens later, I think evil intent might be relevant. It is also important to note that w3j.t is used in many Egyptian texts where rebels and miscreants "fall" (as if from grace or heaven) into evil and bad behaviors and practices with regard to the state. So the King may be stooping to the level of baseness and envious crime, or it might be something a little less severe than such but there are other ways to say that a person is sorrowful, mournful, or unhappy, and Dwj.t implies something a bit "wrong", I think. > The construct X ib=f (or some other part of the body) is well attested > ; I don't think it has some relationship with the stative which > ; follows. The reason for this stative, I think, is that the sadness > ; of the king is the direct result of Djedji's announce. Serge is quite right, and the expression means "his mood is...this or that". jb can mean heart, idea, thought, intellect, mood, emotion, desire, and all kinds of things in Egyptian. H3t.y tends to mean literal physical heart more often, and jb tends to mean the intangible will or desires of a person (sometimes it was even confused with the verb 3bj.t "desire" in the New Kingdom and later), though both can alternate with one another to the point of considerable confusion. Often texts juxatapose one with the other in chiastic parallelism. So, in review, I would translate the sentence as: wn-in Hm=f ib=f wA.w r Dwi.t Hr=s Then His majesty's mood became bad over it. > > P6, L3 > > in iri.tw Hr pA-Xrd.w xmt > .. > > You might be right about the =tw being used for the king. Remember > that in later times, the usage of =tw for the king is very frequent. > Now the question is 'what is the form of iri ?' > Note also that 'pA 3 Xrd' is singular. In Egyptian, when a name is > preceded by a number, it is singular. Grammaticaly, the name is *the > number*, not the following substantive. compare with english : 'a pair > of trousers'. Yes, and Egyptian numbers were nouns. They behaved very strangely compared to English. They often agreed in gender with the nouns they accompanied, but they usually did not agree in number. Egyptian numbers on the basis of Coptic can be interpreted something like this: (someone with a Coptic Dictionary please check my memory on the Coptic.) Egyptian (m/f) Coptic (m/f) Numeral English Meaning w` / w`.t oua / ouei 1 "monad/unit" snw / sn.t snau / snte 2 "dyad/duo/pair" xmt / xmt.t omnt / omte 3 "triad/trio" fdw / fdw.t ftoou / ftoe 4 "tesserad/quartet" djw / dy.t ti / tie 5 "pentad/quintet" srs / srs.t sO / soe 6 "hexad/sextet" sfx / sfx.t saf / safe 7 "heptad/septet" xmn / xmn.t moun / moune 8 "ogdoad/octet" psD / psD.t psis / psite 9 "ennead/group of nine" mD / mD.t mEt / mEte 10 "decad/group of ten" > > one will be his (ie. Ra's) son, and one will be hers." Unfortunately I can't > > work what 'kA' is. Not the verb 'think about, plan'? Yes. it is, but it is also "do/act/be in the future". analogous to p3j "be in the past". > Etymologically, yes ; but it is here the auxilliary which occurs in kA > sDm=f/sDm.kA=f construction. Have a look at Gardiner parag. 242. (For > those who haven't got a grammar, try to translate by 'then'). Serge, is of course right, but k3j.t can and does act as its own verb as well. All helping verbs had their own individual functions as well as their supportive ones. Maybe it would be helpful for us to make a list of helping verbs and examine their original meanings with their tense and aspect modifying properites: I presently remember the following helping verbs, there will of course be others that some of you will be able to add to this list: Infinitive Meaning Modifying feature wnn be move action to non-present tense jrj.t do make action perfective `H` stand relate action in a time sequence p3j.t do/be in past push action back into a further past k3j.t do/be in future push action into a further future These are just my first impressions, but maybe someone has some more accurate grammatical descriptions of what they do. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerav.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:12:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Name of Osiris Hi, Remembering that some time back we had a bit of controversy on the original pronunciation of the name of Osiris, I thought of the list when David Lorton handed me an offprint of one of his articles on this very subject. here is the reference: "Considering the Origin and name of Osiris", by David Lorton in _Varia Aegyptiaca_ 1, 1985, pp. 113-126. Lorton makes the case that the name was originally a s.t-compound much like some of the ones we encountered in Papyrus Westcar (s.t-mnjw "mooring", s.t-qrs.t "burial", etc.). Of course, as is known from the Pyramid Texts, the Old Kingdom form of st .was 3s.t. He sees the name 3sjrj as coming from an original *3s.t-jrj.t, a compound of 3s.t "throne" and jrj.t "making". Now his explanation of what happened phonologically is very interesting. Part of it hinges on the value of the feminine .t ending in Egyptian. Egyptian like Arabic and Hebrew seems to have had a feminine ending -/a/, which took a /t/ sound on it when a pronoun ending was attached to it. However, in a language like Arabic, we would expect an iDAfa construction (status nominalis), two nouns in a genitival relationship, to produce a hard /t/ pronounced between the words. Lorton, however, points to the fact that Egyptian status nominalis constructions with the first word in the compound having a feminine .t ending no longer have any vestiges of a /t/ in their Coptic survivals (see {eierbOOne} "evil eye" from jr.t-bjn.t for example). Thus *3s.t-jrj.t could very well produce Coptic {ousire} without difficulty. The meaning of this name he proposes would be an epithet meaning "production/fabrication". David Lorton points out that Osiris, as was already noted by G. Griffis, does not appear until the Fifth Dynasty at which time mummification also appears. Therefore, he sees Osiris as the personification of a Horus King who has undergone the process of mummification, and his epithet, though he is still the same Horus King, is changed to Osiris "mummification" or "manufactured/rebuilt-God". To David's arguments I would like to add the following phonolgical change scenario: (without assigning a value to {3} since all evidence for it deteriorates so early on) *3s.t-jrj.t Old Eg. Middle Eg. Late Eg. Demotic Coptic *3usa-'Ira *3us'Ira *'us'Ire *'UsIre {ousiri} Anyway, his article is very interesting and worth having a look at. Yours, Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:12:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Tokapu@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL running up to page 2, line 18 Friends, I am new to this chat list, (and what magnificent fun it is to be here!) = and jumping into in midstream, but there was a question asked me regarding li= ne 18, page 2, and I have worried at the pieces until I got some kind of sen= se. It is necessary to back up to lines 6 - 9: "Your condition is like one living above aging. Now, old age is the place of mooring, the place of burial, the place of joining the Earth and reclining toward the light, free of illness, without the hacking of a cough." The question was asked "Why does the description of old age shift from a comparison with death, something that is bound to be negative, is it not,= to the lack of illness?" The clue is that these are praises, statements of the wise man=92s power.= We may see these as comparisons to the negative of death, but only because o= ur Western culture has such a negative and under-developed attitude toward death. Not so in Egypt =96 they have been accused of being a death cult, = but really only because they were not afraid of it. Dying they wanted control over, but death itself was life=92s greatest and most wonderful reward, a secure haven in the chaos of existence carved out by a lifetime of work a= nd study. >From there, in line 10, he goes on to the final line of this congratulato= ry greeting: "Greetings, O Venerable one!" In line 11 about "It is on a mission of my father, Khufu=85" Reversing th= is to a more "logical" order misses a subtle point of emphasis directed toward = the purpose of the text. This is not journalism, it is story telling. "In the days of Khufu" is a narrative device to show how venerable is the source = of the story, and de-emphasizing that misses this sign of respect. The speak= er is telling this to the reader as much to his immediate audience. The styl= e of acknowledging the reader is everywhere in their texts. This is formalized flattery and well-wishing, and shows that Hardedef is an educated man of power, and he is "showing off" to this wise personage =96 and through him= , to the reader. The question of line 18 follows the same logic =96 these are praises, formalized statements of levels of wisdom. The prince has shown what he knows, and Djedi will show off that he has had the training of how to die like an Egyptian. In line 16, "May he promote your position with the elde= rs," is, again, the opening of a formal exchange.=20 "May your ka vent anger upon your enemies" is another wish for good fortu= ne, implying that merely the sight of him or his image will subdue any opposi= tion that he might encounter. It is a recognition of the prince=92s power. The= ka, mislabeled so often as a "soul" or simply as a part of the personality, i= s a very specific part of the personality =96 the outside of the mask, the pu= blic person, the "you" whom only others can see. This is counter-balanced by t= he ba, which is the inside of the mask, the most private experiences of the inner life, the experience which only you can know of yourself. That is w= hy the ba goes with you into the next life, but the ka remains painted in yo= ur tomb, and in all the remnants of personality and character which evoke yo= ur presence in the memories of others. Line 18, "May your ba know the ways leading to the place of portals which enclose the Wearied One." These are all ways of saying "I wish you a good life, I recognize your po= wer, and I wish you a peaceful passage to the Next life," but saying them in s= uch a way that shows off the higher knowledge of the wise man. Ramona L. Wheeler http://members.aol.com/tokapu/Walkle01.htm ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 12:40:40 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Name of Osiris Dear Geoff and AEListers: Regarding David Lorton's "Considering the Origin and name of Osiris", by David Lorton in _Varia Aegyptiaca_ 1, 1985, pp. 113-126 --- and your comments on it: 1) not s.t-compound? A) "Lorton makes the case that the name was originally a s.t-compound much like some of the ones we encountered in Papyrus Westcar (s.t-mnjw "mooring", s.t-qrs.t "burial", etc.). Of course, as is known from the Pyramid Texts, the Old Kingdom form of st .was 3s.t. He sees the name 3sjrj as coming from an original *3s.t-jrj.t, a compound of 3s.t "throne" and jrj.t "making"." Any idea is worth a look. As the Berlin Wrterbuch notes, "mehrfach Pyr." for the spelling s+seat+t, we should first consider whether that (st) was not at least ONE recognized reading for the sign. Compounds like Coptic se-misi, "birth stool", require no supposition of an initial ANYTHING. Under the heading for Isis (which is under st NOT 3st), however, because of the vocalization (Coptic S. e:se), the B.W. supposes an initial consonant, of which we have a few early spellings of 3+"seat"+t. We also have late spellings of iwst+"seat". I will not invoke IE to elucidate these discrepancies but if anyone wants to write off-list, I will be glad to cite them. Suffice it to say that even the inner Egyptian evidence seems to point to a variable reading for the "seat": st, iwst, and 3t (sic! NOT 3st). 2) "Now his explanation of what happened phonologically is very interesting. Part of it hinges on the value of the feminine .t ending in Egyptian. Egyptian like Arabic and Hebrew seems to have had a feminine ending -/a/, which took a /t/ sound on it when a pronoun ending was attached to it." There is NOT any credible evidence that Egyptian ever had a feminine ending -/a/. To suggest (or assert) it is an example of the "semitocentric" thinking that Loprieno justly decries. Egyptian is NOT a Semitic language; it is one of the earliest branches from Afro-Asiatic; and we should not expect purely Semitic features to be reflected in Egyptian. There is no mention of an Egyptian feminine in -/a/ in Loprieno's Ancient Egyptian, which, all must admit, is rather comprehensive. Secondly, according to Moscati (1969), An Introduction to the Comparative Grammar of Semitic Languages, the feminine ending was NOT -/a/ but -/at/ (p. 84), which in PAUSAL form became - /ah/, from which -/a:/ developed (p. 85). A genitival relationship is NOT one in which the first element can occur in a PAUSAL form! 3) "However, in a language like Arabic, we would expect an iDAfa construction (status nominalis), two nouns in a genitival relationship, to produce a hard /t/ pronounced between the words. Lorton, however, points to the fact that Egyptian status nominalis constructions with the first word in the compound having a feminine .t ending no longer have any vestiges of a /t/ in their Coptic survivals (see {eierbOOne} "evil eye" from jr.t-bjn.t for example). Thus *3s.t-jrj.t could very well produce Coptic {ousire} without difficulty." The correct term for the first of two nouns in a Semitic genitival relationship is STATUS CONSTRUCTUS ("construct state [p. 100]"), and refers to the observed phenomenon that the first noun of the pair is modified by its stress-accent being transferred completely to the second noun. I am not sure what status nominalis ("status of noun") has to do with this relationship since no one has doubted that both elements retain their nominal status. Since Egyptian ir.t, "eye", appears in Sahidic as eia, eier-, and eiaat=, I am not really sure what the point is to "first word in the compound having a feminine -.t ending no longer have any vestiges of a /t/ in their Coptic survivals". Unless we no longer consider the personal endings as direct "genitives" (Gardiner, p. 39) (pr.f, "house of 'he'"), one could cite eia(a)tf, "his eye" as a genitive construction in which the feminine -t is retained. 4) "The meaning of this name he proposes would be an epithet meaning "production/fabrication". David Lorton points out that Osiris, as was already noted by G. Griffis, does not appear until the Fifth Dynasty at which time mummification also appears. Therefore, he sees Osiris as the personification of a Horus King who has undergone the process of mummification, and his epithet, though he is still the same Horus King, is changed to Osiris "mummification" or "manufactured/rebuilt-God"." I am not sure how Geoff and David want to make a transition from a discussion of how ir.t, "eye", functions in compounds to how jrj(.t), "do(ing), make(-ing)", since it is not detailed, but I would like to call attention to the normal Coptic form of jrj, which is eire. This, by itself, suggests that there are significant differences between it and ir.t, "eye" (Coptic eia), I would think. To assert that mummification does not appear until the Fifth Dynasty utilizes a rather narrow definition of mummification. We have many examples from archaic burials in which the deceased was carefully wrapped in linen, and placed in a wooden sarcophagus. In my opinion, this treatment deserves to be included in a definition of mummification as a simple early form of the later more elaborate procedure since it contrasts with the even earlier practice of interring a body on its side without a protective sarcophagus. I have reviewed the rather complete description of meanings for iri in the Berlin Wrterbuch (p. 108-112), and can find no reference to iri being used as a term for "mummification"; and, on that basis, find such a suggested meaning unlikely in the extreme. To compound misery with woe, the idea of a "manufactured/rebuilt"god seems to me to be utterly preposterous. Since when, in ancient Egypt or elsewhere, do men build gods let alone re-build them??? Of course, iri does mean "erzeugen, produce by sexual activity" but the mummification process hardly qualifies unless removal of the brain through the nares was regarded as an attempt to stimulate the pleasure centers. 5)"To David's arguments I would like to add the following phonological change scenario: (without assigning a value to {3} since all evidence for it deteriorates so early on) *3s.t-jrj.t Old Eg.Middle Eg.Late Eg.DemoticCoptic *3usa-'Ira*3us'Ira*'us'Ire*'UsIre{ousiri}" I have repeatedly asked Geoff to explain his peculiar reconstruction of st, "place" as 3(s)t but have unable to be persuaded by the eloquent silence that has followed. So, I have attempted to clarify the matter myself above. Since IE cognates of r with Egyptian 3 abound, as do Semitic cognates with r for Egyptian r, it is unnecessary to consider 3 anything else but a kind of /r/. The above Old Egyptian reconstruction of *3usa-'Ira is totally unjustified since the first element cannot be in pause (and hence would not have lost its -t as this strange theory requires) quite aside from other objections. Some other objections might be: a) if st were 3usa(t), and 3usa(t) lead to Coptic ous-, why does st, "Isis", lead to Coptic e:se? If one is going to play the dubious game of asserting that Egyptian /u/ becomes Coptic /e:/, should one not be consistent --- at least? Once again, the problem we see so often in Egyptological studies has re-asserted itself. Some Egyptologists seem to venture outside Egyptology only for quick stopovers in Semitic studies (which they pursue, it seems, rather selectively and superficially) but refuse to look farther afield for possible answers. Since this is the attitude demanded of students by many professors, it is asking too much of students who want a PhD to swim against the tide but it is a shame. One would think that the existence of gods like Asar/l in Mesopotamia might have nipped this whole thesis in the bud. This god's name is written with a sign meaning "seat" + "1" + "eye". This sign for "eye" does not include a meaning like "do, make". Asar - Ousir; "seat-eye" - "seat-eye"; of course, we do not want to be accused of rushing to conclusions based on MERE RESEMBLANCES, so we will not comment further! I will not discuss the possible connections of IE awes- (yielding Germanic Ostara, the goddess of spring - the rejuvenation of nature) and other derivatives meaning "morning star" since, of course, Geoff might accuse me of having an agendum. Straussvogelpolitik has a long and distinguished history! Pat -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== From: kadishg@binghamton.edu Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:28:44 -0400 (EDT) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Helping Verbs and Numerals Goeff: I found your comments on Khufu's mood interesting, although I am not quite clear as to what in the events that ensue favors seeing a nastier tone to his mood. Djedi's response to what he sees on the king's face is to reassure Khufu that his family's succession is secure for two more generations. Djedi even offers to make it possible for Khufu to visit the site of the impending births. Finally, Khufu rewards Djedi, despite the news. Khufu, of course, got bad press later on in Egyptian history, and his willingness to use a human prisoner for the decapitation/head restoration trick might lend some credence to it. The snippy maidservant who threatens to squeal to Khufu has no idea that the king already knows about it. Djedi, a seer of sorts, saw what was to be; the rest of the tale supports the intentions of the gods. Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University (SUNY) Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 23:43:20 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P6, L5-6. To: to AEL REGARDING West. P6, L5-6. Westcar AEL Page 6, lines 5-6. First a comment about lines 4: in iri.tw Hr... I didn't realise this was a separate sentence! This brings home the point about the absence of full stops! The endings and beginnings of sentences are so much easier to determine if there are obvious signals. I suppose for a lot of Westcar the beginnings are easy because of the standard constructions, eg. Dd-in Ddi.... Now, to continue page 6: Line 5: Dd-in Hm=f msi=s ir=f zy nw rd-Dd.t "Then his majesty said, "When shall Redjedjet give birth?" Notes: The spoken sentence begins with a bare verb form (msi) followed by a suffix pronoun (=s), 'she/her'. A prospective form of the verb would fit. The particle ir=f has been discussed previously, and can either be ignored, or translated as 'indeed'. The critical word zy follows, and is an interrogative, meaning Who/What/Which? This is next to the word nw 'time', so the two words mean, 'What time' = 'When'. OK, the question I have about this sentence is the relationship of the suffix pronoun, =s, and the womans name. Is the name just in apposition at the end of the sentence, "When shall SHE give birth, Redjedjet?", or does the suffix pronoun indicate some kind of fronting; 'When shall Redjedjet GIVE BIRTH?' Line 6: Dd-in Ddi msi=s m Abd pri.t mD-diw "Then Djedi said, "She will give birth in the [first] month of pri.t (winter) , day 15" Notes: Prospective verb form again. Should there be the word for one after Abd? Does the sun sign to double duty as the det. for pri.t and as the word for day (zp/ra)? In a previous post I asked about the rank of a wab-priest and the significance of this in the plot. Any thoughts? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne, mikdeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ==============================================================================