From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 23:17:27 +0000 Subject: AEL Hatshepsut Obelisk, West face line 1 Dear all, As the list has been fairly quite of late, I thought I would take this opportunity to remind everyone that we have some hieroglyphic texts from Hatshepsut's obelisk on the AEL web page (address at the bottom of this message). This text is quite formulaic in nature, and as such, once you've learned to read it, you are well on the way to being able to read many other similar inscriptions too! Now, the first line of the hieroglyphic text on the web page might look a little daunting until you realise that the entire line is taken up with Hatshepsut's titles. If you haven't looked at the royal titulary before, you might like to turn to pages 71-76 of Gardiner's Egyptian grammar. Perhaps someone could mention other sources for those list members who don't have Gardiner. Basically, the Pharaoh had 5 titles which were: The Horus name The two ladies (nbty) name The Golden Horus name The Prenomen The Nomen Coming back to the Hatshepsut text, here's my translation and transliteration of line 1: Hrw wsr.t k3.w nbty w3D.t rnp.w The Horus mighty of Kas, "Two Ladies" flourishing-of-years, Hrw n nbw nTr.t x<.w nb t3wy m3 Subject: AEL West. P2, L1 To: to AEL REGARDING West. P2, L1 Backtracking a bit, and I'm not sure whether this was discussed before (but I can't find it). xr-m-xt spr=f r Ddi "Now after he reached Djedi" or "Afterwards he reached Djedi" There was a discussion about whether it is a subordinate clause, and this impinges on my question:- What is the verb form of spr=f ? If it is aorist/circumstantial AND and independent sentence, then where does it get its past tense from? The context? Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 18:40:54 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hatshepsut Obelisk, West face line 1 Mark Wilson wrote: > > Dear all, > > As the list has been fairly quite of late, I thought I would take > this opportunity to remind everyone that we have some hieroglyphic > texts from Hatshepsut's obelisk on the AEL web page (address at the > bottom of this message). This text is quite formulaic in nature, and > as such, once you've learned to read it, you are well on the way to > being able to read many other similar inscriptions too! Mark, a couple of months ago I did one of the faces of the obelisk and was later told some wrong glyphs had mistakenly been put up and not to work on this for awhile. Is the whole text okay now? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 10:46:55 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P2, L8 To: to AEL REGARDING West. P2, L8 Westcar AEL Page 2, line 8 (but including lines 6 - 9) Another back-tracking question for those who have access and can interpret the hieratic original. Geoff was desperately seeking a way to make the first statements about death contrast with the latter statements. Is there any damage/loss or possibility of a suffix pronoun =k being attached to the sDr (in line 8)? Hypothetically, if sDr=k was there, would it then start off a contrasting clause, "(yet) YOU sleep until daylight, free of illness, without even a hacking cough". Alternatively, if the text looks sound, then could the scribe have missed or deliberately left out a =k for some reason? eg. the complexity of the determinative, or left out the subject becaus it was obvious? Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 10:57:24 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P2, L18 To: to AEL REGARDING West. P2, L18 Westcar AEL page 2, line 18 (Geoffs transcription) rx bA=k wA.w.t afd.t r sbx.t n.y.t Hbs bAg(y.w)! Is the transcription n.y.t, or could the word be nty, "the pylon WHICH/THAT covers the weary". If not, then the Hbs bAg(y.w) is a name of a pylon (?). Does that make any sense? Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 21:37:10 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL Westcar pp. 81-... This just caught my eye, and shows how easy it is to overlook things when you only deal with transcriptions. The first line of Geoff's transcription of De Buck's Page 81, line 10 (AEL p3, line 16) was: Dj.jn Hm=f Look at it again. I used it, and so did several others. We all translated the verb as 'said', yet it is written Dj and not Dd. I'm sure Geoff threw this in just to test us. Geoff, do I get a 'pink elephant' stamp?? ;-) [or whatever other sign means I am being very light hearted and mean no offense] Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:41:31 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Hatshepsut Obelisk, West face line 1 On 4 Aug 97 at 18:40, Saida wrote: > Mark, a couple of months ago I did one of the faces of the obelisk and > was later told some wrong glyphs had mistakenly been put up and not to > work on this for awhile. Is the whole text okay now? Hi Marianne, Yes, there was a discussion shortly after the text appeared regarding the identification of some of the glyphs on the original slides of the obelisk. As far as I know, these issues are now resolved. Best Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 11:32:43 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > This just caught my eye, and shows how easy it is to overlook things when you > only deal with transcriptions. The first line of Geoff's transcription of De > Buck's Page 81, line 10 (AEL p3, line 16) was: > Dj.jn Hm=f > Look at it again. I used it, and so did several others. We all translated the > verb as 'said', yet it is written Dj and not Dd. I guess that shows one of two things: 1) People see what they expect to see, no matter what is actually there. 2) People have been using the hieroglyphic text instead of the transcription when doing translations In this particular case I fall into the latter category, though I have been known to succumb to the former. > I'm sure Geoff threw this in just to test us. Geoff, do I get 'pink > elephant' stamp?? ;-) -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 07:16:59 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL WESTCAR UPDATE To: to AEL REGARDING WESTCAR UPDATE Update and revision of Westcar pages: I have made quite a few revisions to the commentaries of all pages so far discussed and begun the commentary of page 4. You may need to 'reload' the old pages from your browser. Sorry, the downloadable .sit file of the whole site is not updated. Can someone using windows tell me if it works ? (using Marks instructions - which I now have listed under 'downloading'/'help' in the first page of the web site) Regards, Mike D-S Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 23:33:32 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL WESTCAR To: to AEL REGARDING WESTCAR I have added hieroglyphic page 7 and interlinear pages 5 and 6 to the westcar website. You may need to 'reload' from your browser to see the updates. Let me know if you have any problems or spot any errors. Regards, Mike D-S mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 03:11:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Nefertum Chapel on the Web Hi, Ancient Egyptian Listers, I am writing to announce that I have made some new texts available for those of you who wish to try your hand at reading something completely different. I thought that it might be nice for a change if we were to read some texts in something more like their original context, so that we could see the traditional blend of text and art which occurs in Egyptian temples. The images are from drawings in Auguste Mariette's _Abydos: description des fouilles executees sur l'emplacement de cette ville_, vol. I, Paris, 1869. The copyright is obviously expired, and this book is so rare that it is not readily available just anywhere. The subject is reliefs from the Chapel to Nefertum in the Sokar Complex of the Temple of Sety I at Abydos. I have put up approximately half of the reliefs from that location in the temple for your perusal. I hope that people will enjoy the interesting iconography and the use of standard temple inscription formulae. I am sorry that the images are somewhat imperfect, but they were scanned from copies of copies, the best that I could do for now. I hope to put up other images in the future with higher quality. Anyway, this will be more like what Egyptologists really do... we have to suffer through obscured writings, lacunae, and oddly formed signs. I hope it will be amusing as well as challenging work. Each image is identified by a letter of the alphabet. I figure that those who wish to read the texts should begin with letter A, and proceed in alphabetical order. There are two parts to scene E (E1 and E2). These separate images would have fit together into a single scene. THe just would not fit easily in one image. The URL is: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html I particularly want to Thank Stephen Fryer for all his help. He scanned the images, emailed them back to me, and then he helped me verify that the page was up and running. Have fun! Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:00:27 +0000 Subject: AEL Web archives fixed A problem was reported recently that week 13 of the AEL archives could not be accessed. This has now been corrected. Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:35:06 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: "M. A. R. Barker" Subject: Re: AEL Nefertum Chapel on the Web Cc: geoffrey.graham@yale.edu Dear Geoff and colleagues, I tried the new Nefertum chapel web page. I copied the address Geoff had given and used my Netscape 3.01. At once the title came up: pretty red-brown background. But nothing else. No button to click to a new page. Just the heading and "A. The west wall..." {I didn't note the exact wording, but Geoff will know.] Is there more to come later, or is there something wrong with my web browser??? Regards, Phil ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 12:16:15 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Re: AEL Nefertum Chapel on the Web At 10:35 AM 8/9/97 -0600, Phil wrote: >Dear Geoff and colleagues, > >I tried the new Nefertum chapel web page. I copied the address Geoff had >given and used my Netscape 3.01. At once the title came up: pretty >red-brown background. But nothing else. No button to click to a new page. >Just the heading and "A. The west wall..." {I didn't note the exact >wording, but Geoff will know.] > >Is there more to come later, or is there something wrong with my web browser??? The website is rather slow-loading, but I encountered a GPF with Netscape 3.0 as well as what you encountered, Phil. If you have Internet Explorer 3.0 or Netscape 4.01/Communicator, it loads just fine, however. The gifs used are very large, so be patient. Katherine ------- To whom can I speak today? The foul fiend is an intimate, but a brother, with whom one has worked, has become an enemy. To whom can I speak today? One's fellows are evil, One has recourse only to strangers for uprighteousness of heart... The Dispute With the Soul, Middle Kingdom Egypt, 3rd millenium, BC ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:25:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Background on the Nefertum Chapel Hi, all, I just wanted to give you all a little bit of background on the scenes which are on my website for our use. (http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html) This chapel is one of the chapels of the Sokar Complex of Sety I at his Abydos temple. This means that the chapel was more than likely especially used during the Sokar Feast for part of the rites associated therewith. Therefore, the God Sokar is just about as prominent as Nefertum, the owner of the chapel. Nefertum's relationship to Sokar is as the devoted son who helps in the resurrection of his father just as Horus/Anubis/Wepwawet does for Osiris/Andjety/Khentamenthes. The familial relationship works on the lines of the Memphite triad which comprised Ptah, Sekhmet, and Nefertum, however the mortuary versions of Ptah and Sekhmet were Generally Sokar and Hathor. Sokar was undoubtedly originally a distinct deity of the Memphite necropolis: r3-sT3.w "Giza" (like the name of this List's server "Rostau" though I would have spelled if "Rosetjau") and pD.w "Saqqara", the modern name of which is believed to come from that of Sokar. There is a possibility that he was actually transplanted to the Memphite region from Busiris or some other Delta location. He represented the fertility that lies at the bottom of the underworld as well as the minerals and vegetal produce of the earth. He was carried on a boat known as the Henu-barque which had the form of a the crescent moon. His stellar manifestation was that of Orion. Ptah was the main deity of the city of Memphis, but was soon identified with Sokar in the composite god Ptah-Sokar. Sometime later in the Old Kingdom, after the ascendence of Osiris as the principal mortuary god from Heliopolis, this god was grafted on too, and the composite Ptah-Sokar-Osiris was formed. The Sokar Feast was celebrated every year at the setting (disappearance from the night sky) of the constellation Orion, which was a symbolic death of Ptah-Sokar-Osiris. The rites center around the preparation of his body, actually a corn Osiris which would later sprout after watering, and its placement into a tomb, but the culmination of the ceremonies involved the resurrection of the god in the form of the full moon rising on the lotus of Nefertum. This is why these scenes show Nefertum holding the Eye-of-Horus, which was the full moon in Egyptian thought. Ptah-Sokar-Osiris was aided by many gods during these proceedings. The principal actors on his behalf were Sekhmet (and various others of her avatars such as Hathor, Wedjoyet, Neith, etc.), Nefertum, and Thoth. Other deities who form part of the background for this cult are Nun, Tatjenen, and various manifestations of the underworld sungod. This is because Orion (Ptah-Sokar-Osiris) had to return to the uncreated world to be regenerated. Much of the imagery of this chapel will seem very enigmatic to most of you. The Sokar cult was a specifically Memphite phenomenon, and therefore was somewhat different from the standard Egyptian religion which we know from Heliopolitan and Theban traditions. This chapel, however was built in Abydos, way up the river from Memphis in Upper Egypt. This was probably so that the mortuary religions of Upper and Lower Egypt could be celebrated together in this comprehensive temple of Sety I's. Anyway, I hope that this will serve as a starting point for you to understand what is going on in these scenes. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 11:21:11 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Nefertum Chapel on the Web M. A. R. Barker wrote: > > I tried the new Nefertum chapel web page. I copied the address Geoff > had > given and used my Netscape 3.01. At once the title came up: pretty > red-brown background. But nothing else. No button to click to a new > page. > Just the heading and "A. The west wall..." {I didn't note the exact > wording, but Geoff will know.] > > Is there more to come later, or is there something wrong with my web > browser??? The page actually contains all the images (about 500K worth). It does seem to behave rather strangely though. I'm not sure if it is a problem with the server software or.... I notice that Geoff forgot to put at the end of the page, but I'm not sure that would cause the strange things I saw this morning - pictures loading and then vanishing, pictures loading only part way, or not at all. If I load the images separately (on a PC right clicking brings up a menu and you can choose "View Image"; how the Mac handles this I don't know), then going back to the page they show up fine. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:51:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Scene A Transliteration Hi, All, I just thought I'd get things rolling in case the new scenes seemed a bit daunting or difficult to read. Initial exposure to a new genre of Egyptian texts is always difficult. Many times the artist had conventions that make the texts seem difficult to read. There was also a very ancient tradition of religious inscriptions dating back to the Pyramid Texts which insisted on certain conservative devices such as the word Dd-mdw.w "recitation" at the tops of almost all the columns. Initially this would start out the label of a quotation: Dd-mdw.w jn "A recitation by..." then the deity's name, the one who said whatever followed. The tops of the columns would continue with this expression but it would be ignored by the ancient reader from the second instance onward. There will be other strange features which I will point out as the transliteration goes along. Here is my tranliteration to Scene A. I am beginning with the text over the god and then continuiing with that over the king. (Words between <>'s are not to be read as part of the text, but reflect the scribal conventions of religious relief carving.) 1) Dd-mdw.w jn zkr 2) Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r`* *This complicated grapheme occurs throughout this temple. Notice how the {mansion} sign encloses the other characters. Any guesses as to meaning and interpretation? 3) dj.n(=j) n=k 4) nxt nb *Notice that in this example the word jn is also transfered into the dummy "quote-marks" for the purpose of filling the space more appealingly. 5) 3w.t-jb nb(.t)* *The feminine ending was left out so that the glyphs would line up. Notice the way the baskets create a row accross the bottom of the inscription. Often artistic considerations prevailed over grammar and spelling in this medium. Now, move over to the text above the king and continue: 6) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t* mn-m3`.t-r` *The orthography is odd because the artist decided to insert the determinative between the {t} and the {n} for space conservation purposes. 7) z3-r` nb x`j.w stX.y** mrj.y-n.y-ptH *The {j} is a mechanical repetiion of the {j} in jn but with no particular sense. It just makes the text seem more symmetrical. **Interesting features of the orthography of Sety's name in this temple are that the hieroglyph for Seth is everywhere expurgated and replaced with that of Osiris and the Tjet knot since the temple was dedicated largely to Osiris and his associated deities, while Seth was perceived as inimical to them. 8) mj n=k sw jTj n r3=k : jrT.t* : wsx snw** *The line (here represented by a colon) means that the commodity in question is boxed separately below as a gloss to the inscription. This means that the officient was supposed to say the inscription above while offering the commodity below the line. **The second line divides the quantity from the measure, telling the number of vessels of the commodity. 9) mj n=k jr.t=k* wpj r3=k jm=s : nwd : snw *Either the scribe, the stone-cutter, or Mariette's artist goofed. The {basket} should be the handled variety in order to make this *very* standard statement in offering formulae. 10) mj n=k (j)m=s jw wr.t-Hk3.w : h3sD w`* *The reading of the part below the line is doubtful. Might it refer to a hatjes-vessel of something? See h3Ts in Faulkner. On the other hand, the statement begun with jw is not complete and maybe this is the continuation of the sentiment, though I do not yet understand its meaning. 11) mj n=k mw bz3 jm.y mnD.wy mw.t=k : mw mns xmnw Please give me feedback as to whether this kind of transliteration post is useful to you. I do not know precisely what level the readership is and what you need in order to be able to work best. Good luck and have fun translating. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 14:53:39 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A Transliteration Graham wrote: > insisted on certain conservative devices such as the word Dd-mdw.w > "recitation" at the tops of almost all the columns. Initially this would > start out the label of a quotation: Dd-mdw.w jn "A recitation by..." then > the deity's name, the one who said whatever followed. The tops of the > columns would continue with this expression but it would be ignored by the > ancient reader from the second instance onward. In a way this parallel's the old way of using quotation marks in English - each line that was part of a quotation started with a quote mark, but only the last line of the quotation ended with a quote mark. (At least that is the way I conceptualize these D-mdw signs) > 8) mj n=k sw jTj n r3=k : jrT.t* : wsx snw** I believe the first sign (which puzzled me at first) is in fact mn (T1) although the way it is drawn here it looks like aA (O29). Gardiner (EG, #336) explains that it is m (take) + dative n, and that this is a traditional writing of this liturgical phrase. Of course the dative n is repeated anyway so what we have written here is m(n) n=k. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 15:00:26 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Background on the Nefertum Chapel Graham wrote: > > Hi, all, > > I just wanted to give you all a little bit of background on the scenes > which are on my website for our use. For those wanting to know more about Sethy's temple at Abydos, I can recommend the Pilgrimage to Abydos: http://sgwww.epfl.ch/berger/Abydos/english/start.html Also the Summer 97 issue of KMT magazine had a couple of articles on the temple. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:20:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A Transliteration Hi, Stephen, > > 8) mj n=k sw jTj n r3=k : jrT.t* : wsx snw** > > I believe the first sign (which puzzled me at first) is in fact mn (T1) > although the way it is drawn here it looks like aA (O29). Gardiner (EG, > #336) explains that it is m (take) + dative n, and that this is a > traditional writing of this liturgical phrase. Of course the dative n > is repeated anyway so what we have written here is m(n) n=k. Yes, the sign represents the combination m+n (or possibly *mjn or *jmn), but the vocabulary involved comes from Old Egyptian of the Pyramid Texts and involves mj or jm (it was generally only written with the owl), the imperative of some verb to seize or take, plus a dative n with a reflexive pronoun. "Take for yourself". If you are uncomfortable with a reconstructed {j} on either side, you can view it as m n=k. At some time later than the Pyramid Texts, it was decided that the name of the particular scepter in question was homophonous with mj n=... (or jm n=... as the case may be) and it became employed for this one single usage in offering formulas, even though the vocables technically spanned more than one word. For a listing in Faulkner see both references: the fourth "m" on page 102, and the first "mn" on page 106. I am hoping you will have some suggestions for line 10, Stephen. That is where we are all going to need some help. ;-P Otherwise, I am confident that the text makes perfect sense. Yorus, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 20:03:56 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A Transliteration > 1) Dd-mdw.w jn zkr Words spoken by Sakar: > 2) Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r`* Oh One who is (lives) in the house of Him who maintains the order of Re' (Sety I), > 3) dj.n(=j) n=k "What I give to you is > 4) nxt nb all (possible) strength, > 5) 3w.t-jb nb(.t)* (and) every (possible) joy." > 6) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t* mn-m3`.t-r` Words spoken by Him of the Sun, He who maintains the order of Re' (Sety I), > 7) z3-r` nb x`j.w stX.y** mrj.y-n.y-ptH > the son of Re', the lord of glories, Satashya: ("coming from stS"), beloved of PtaH, > 8) mj n=k sw jTj n r3=k : jrT.t* : wsx snw** > I have presented to you --- so that it actually (sw) reached your > mouth: milk, two cups; > 9) mj n=k jr.t=k* wpj r3=k jm=s : nwd : snw > I have presented to you what you will apply --- so that your mouth might be opened: two (jars of) unguents; > 10) mj n=k (j)m=s jw wr.t-Hk3.w : h3sD w`* I have presented to you herbs (*sim.w) (OR curds (smi.w)) of great magical potency: one jar; > 11) mj n=k mw bz3 jm.y mnD.wy mw.t=k : mw mns xmnw I have presented to you the flowing water which is in the breasts of your mother: eight jars (mnz3) of water. > Pat -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== From: CatGuy@lamg.com (Milo Shiff) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: Re: AEL Nefertum Chapel on the Web Date: 09 Aug 1997 20:33:18 GMT In message ID <33ECB517.914C9FA8@prcn.org> on 8/9/97, Ancient Egyptian Language wrote: AEL> The page actually contains all the images (about 500K worth). It does AEL> seem to behave rather strangely though. I'm not sure if it is a problem AEL> with the server software or.... I notice that Geoff forgot to put AEL> at the end of the page, but I'm not sure that would AEL> cause the strange things I saw this morning - pictures loading and then AEL> vanishing, pictures loading only part way, or not at all. If I load the AEL> images separately (on a PC right clicking brings up a menu and you can AEL> choose "View Image"; how the Mac handles this I don't know), then going AEL> back to the page they show up fine. REPLY: After school starts again and I have access to the web, I'll take a look at the HTML and see what may be wrong with it (if anything) Although there may be problems with site, any large web page (more than 50K total including all pictures and movies and multimedia stuff, but excluding any streaming stuff) can give the current generation of web browsers (ALL of them, Navigator, Communicator, Mosaic, Explorer, CyberDog, etc.) fits. In particular, Navigator, Communicator, Explorer, and CyberDog running on either Windows NT or Macintosh will use "multi-threading", a technique that allows the browser to split up the job of downloading images from the Internet. Current implementations of the major browsers have poor response to a thread failing, either aborting the download of that one image or even sometimes aborting all remaining threads (with their image downloads). If I had regular, dependable access to a computer for about a year I could write a really nice cross-platform web browser. It's really not that complicated. It amazes me the problems in web browsers written by large companies with engineering teams of dozens of programmers. Oh, well, enough complaints about large companies producing junky software. In the meantime, if anyone wants me to check over their web pages and point out any mistakes (as well as make some suggestions for better design), feel free to send me a copy of your web site on floppy disk or Zip cartridge (depending on its size). Include ALL of the files (HTML, pictures, MIDI, movies, etc.) in folders (directories) arranged the same was as your on-line site. If your site is on a Macintosh or UNIX server and you put it onto a DOS/Windows formatter disk, then also include a chart that shows the correspondences between the 8.3 file names on the disk and the long file names on the server. Send the stuff to: Milo, POB 1361, Tustin, CA, 92781, USA. If you want the disk back (and given the cost of Zip cartridges, you probably do), make sure to include a self-addressed envelope. If you are inside the U.S., make it a self-addressed, stamped envelope with sufficient postage. If you are outside of the U.S., include enough International Reply Coupons to cover the postage. NOTE: This offer ONLY applies to Egypt related web sites. And NO commercial sites. Bast and Tameran witchcraft site at: or ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:23:11 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Scene A Transliterat To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL Scene A Transliteration Geoff/Stephen et al. a) I have had no trouble opening the site, downloading the JPEG's and viewing them (Netscape 3/powerMac). Good work. b) I have a query, what is the sign at the top of columns 8-11, which you transliterate _mi_. Thanks Geoff and Stephen! Mike D-S mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:54:40 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Scene A, line 10 ? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: Scene A, line 10 ? Scene A: Line 10 is a bit obscure. It seems you would expect a noun (or pronoun) after the initial mi-n=k. Given the scene below these columns of text, I wonder could the signs for m,s and the biliteral wr, be a mixed up version of mswr, 'drinking bowl'. So, "Take to you a drinking bowl, great of magic". Alternatively, there is a word, mst (a staff). If the facing god was willing to part with the staff he is holding, this might be a possibility. I think this is less likely. Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ----------------------- 10) mj n=k (j)m=s jw wr.t-Hk3.w : h3sD w`* *The reading of the part below the line is doubtful. Might it refer to a hatjes-vessel of something? See h3Ts in Faulkner. On the other hand, the statement begun with jw is not complete and maybe this is the continuation of the sentiment, though I do not yet understand its meaning. ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:34:07 -0700 From: Lorraine Tartasky To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Nefertum Chapel on the Web Graham; I have been unable to pull the chapel file up. I get Captions but no glyphs. Any suggestions? Netscape navigator 3.0 should be able to handle it. L ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:08:25 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West.P2, L12-13 To: to AEL REGARDING West.P2, L12-13 Westcar, AEL Page 2, Lines 12 & 13: Backtracking again: The two verbs starting off these lines (wnm=k, and zbi=f). There seemed to be no discussion about them. They are translated as future tenses. Is this because they are aorist/circumstantial and are future relative to the previous past tense verb starting the discourse (I have come...). Mike Dyall-Smith mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:28:22 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A Transliteration Patrick C. Ryan wrote: > > 2) Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r`* > > Oh One who is (lives) in the house of Him who maintains the order of > Re' (Sety I), I think this is actually a title or attribute of Sokar. That is what one usually finds in the Dd mdw in formula: Dd mdw in NAME TITLE(S) [Dd=f] QUOTED TEXT The Egyptians seem to have felt the need for the Dd=f when the titles were sufficiently long-winded, to let them know that the next bit was the actual quoted text. > > 3) dj.n(=j) n=k > > "What I give to you is Possibly "What I have given" or perhaps even "I have given" > > 4) nxt nb > > all (possible) strength, nxt could also be "victories", and still be reasonable here. In these sort of listings the Egyptians seem to have been very careless about minor points such as gender and number - I guess they seemed so obvious to them as to be unnecessary. > > 6) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t* mn-m3`.t-r` > > Words spoken by Him of the Sun, He who maintains the order of Re' (Sety I), Where did you get the "Sun"? Usually referred to as "Sedge" the heraldic plant of Upper Egypt. This is the usual title for "king" I notice that here the determinative appears to be an Upeer Egyptian king, making this half the nsw-bit title. > > 7) z3-r` nb x`j.w stX.y** mrj.y-n.y-ptH > > the son of Re', the lord of glories, Satashya: ("coming from stS"), > beloved of PtaH, stX is the god Seth, although here, as elsewhere in this temple, the determinative is Osiris (politics!). Seth was originally the royal god of Upper Egypt - whatever that meant at the time when the Horus/Seth division of territories originated (probably before the first Dynasty) - and Horus was the royal god of Lower Egypt. Note that Horus was the royal god of Dynasty I and I believe also Dynasty 0. I want to study the rest of the inscription a little more before I risk commenting on it. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ==============================================================================