Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 02:07:01 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Jerome Colburn Subject: Re: AEL Egyptian vowels At 10:59 AM 01/20/2002 -0500, stevewhittet wrote: >At 07:56 PM 01/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: >> >>I am attempting to compile a list of transliterations of Egyptian place names >>so that I can compare them to the modern place names in a (probably vain) >>attempt to shed some light on the vowels used in spoken Egyptian. Does >>anyone have the transliterations or Gardiner codes for any place names? >>-Ryan Denzer-King > >If you want to go through the original inscriptions you have access to >looking for foreign names, >the lists of towns which have been subdued during the campaigns of the >18th and 19th Dynasties >and the treaties which reference them are a good start. That should give >you the major cities from >Canaan, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Nubia,Cyprus, Crete, and the Negev. That job has been done, most recently AFAIK by James E. Hoch, _Semitic Words in Egyptian Texts of the New Kingdom and Third Intermediate Period_, Princeton University Press, 1994. Those place names are written in group writing, which has some limited value for indicating the 18th-19th century vocalization, but it isn't used for most native Egyptian words. ********************************** * Jerome Colburn * jscolbur@prairienet.org * im nfr mdw pn m bAH mryw mdw-nTr ********************************** ============================================================================== From: "STEVE CROSS" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Rainfall Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:01:23 +0000 Hello to the list, It is well known that the AE called rainfall a 'Nile in the Sky' but can any list members provide me with references for where I can find actual inscriptions/papyri stating this? Thank You in advance, Steve ============================================================================== From: "Thomas Sima" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Kingsley/Possible Words of Egyptian Origin Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:42:03 -0500 To clear up some of the issues around the Kingsley article: 1. The article itself is entitled "Poimandres: The Etymology of the Name and Origins of the Hermetica" and was originally published in the Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes, 56 (1993). The reprint is in the book "From Poimandres to Jacob Boehme: Gnosis, Hermetism and the Christian Tradition", Brill Publishing, 2000. 2. On "oasis": the Greek word supplied is "auasis", which seems to have been attributed to "he auansis" (Gen. -ews), which the Oxford Greek-English Lexicon describes as "a drying up" (from the root verb auainw, "to wither"). 3. The word "sphinxis" means "a binding together, a constriction" so the sense of binding (and the root verb sphingw) is still present, but the sense of blocking off one's air passage is, as well. Kingsley's footnote attributes the meaning to M.L. West's "Hesiod, Theogony", Oxford 1966. I'm not going to vouch for Kingsley's research on any particular point as I haven't seen it. However, it does seem clear that in some cases, there will be a process of re-etymologization and that this has to be kept in mind when looking for the ultimate source of words that may or may not be Egyptian. Best Regards, Thomas Sima ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:46:29 +1000 (EST) From: Geoffrey Norman Watson To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL MdC Expanding the topic slightly, I have been fascinated by the various levels of conversion involved in the translation of Egyptian texts. Hieroglyphs are very useful for revealing many of the nuances in the process of reading a written text that go unnoticed in English, where we unconsciously conflate various conversions and interpretations. The Manual de Codage is intended for the ASCII transmission of Hieroglyphic texts. But, as the discussion on this thread shows, it is not entirely clear where in the hierarchy of representations it is intended to lie. So it is not clear exactly what information it should contain. To illustrate this point, this is my sketch of the levels of translation: - THE TEXT - A graphical transcription This includes direction of writing and the relative placement of parts of the text. It will, for instance, have the exact transcription of faulty hieroglyphs. It could be a sketch (or a photograph?) - "Orthographic" transcription This is a standardised representation of the text in either a hieroglyph font or Gardiner codes. Includes relative placement of glyphs in groups (should it include direction of writing?) - Transliteration into phonetic encoding of hieroglyphs eg R8 to nTr. Geometric grouping of glyphs is not included - "Lexemic" translation into Egyptian words - Translation into a modern language (semantic analysis) The conversions involved in some of these stages are one-many, so the actual process of translation a specific text will often be iterative. For example, the phonetic transliteration is one-many and backtracking from the lexemic or translation phases may be needed if the wrong alternative is chosen. The MdeC is primarily a combination of my Orthographic and Transliteration levels. So, for instance, it does not seem to indicate the direction of writing or the geometrical relationship between segments of text. (On the other hand, the XML proposal that was circulated some time ago was more directed at the "graphical" level.) However it can indicate (arbirarily) either Gardiner codes or phonetic conversions, and includes information on the positioning of signs within groups. Two comments: 1. The information kept at each level depends on the task in hand. For instance the MdeC includes various markups for missing or dubious text which are only relevant for scholarly analysis, not for simple translation. 2. This scheme ignores the script level. For example there will be an extra "orthographic transliteration" process if a hieratic document is being converted to standard hieroglyphs, perhaps for translation. Obviously I have taken a reductionist and process-centred point of view. Not having any formal grounding in linguistics, I would be particularly interested in knowing what the official terminology for these various processes are. Cheers Geoffrey Watson gwat@itee.uq.edu.au Software Verification Research Centre http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~gwat University of Queensland Australia ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:56:42 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Jerome Colburn Subject: Re: AEL Rainfall At 08:01 PM 01/21/2002 +0000, STEVE CROSS wrote: >Hello to the list, > >It is well known that the AE called rainfall a 'Nile in the Sky' but can >any list members provide me with references for where I can find actual >inscriptions/papyri stating this? It's in the Great Hymn to the Sun-Disk on the west thickness of Ay's tomb at El-Amarna, near the bottom of Column 9. ********************************** * Jerome Colburn * jscolbur@prairienet.org * im nfr mdw pn m bAH mryw mdw-nTr ********************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:03:24 +0200 Subject: Re: AEL xtyw From: Robert Allan To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hello, can anyone send me a copy (jpeg?) of P.West. 12, 14 and URK IV, 687.14 which contain the word xtyw 'threshing floor'? Or at least a translit or translation? Here in Cyprus these texts are unavailable Thanks in advance Robert Allan ============================================================================== Subject: RE: AEL Egyptian vowels Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:20:35 +0100 From: To: > That job has been done, most recently AFAIK by James E. Hoch, _Semitic > Words in Egyptian Texts of the New Kingdom and Third Intermediate Period_, > Princeton University Press, 1994. Those place names are written in group > writing, which has some limited value for indicating the 18th-19th century > vocalization, but it isn't used for most native Egyptian words. Dear listmembers, concerning group writing and other systems used over the centuries in Egypt to write foreign names, I wonder if there is any books that cover this issue. In Hannig HWB there is a list of syllabic writing, but it doesn't seem really complete. Does anybody know any reference (possibly in English)? Thank you in advance, Fabio. ============================================================================== Subject: RE: AEL Ancient Egyptian words-modern words Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:17:27 +0100 From: To: a.p.de visser wrote: > Recently I caused several reactions when I proposed a certain > resemblance of AE-words and modern ones.In spite of the many scientific > critics on my proposal I venture to present another remarkable exemple > and wait for the professional linguists to fall over me: > > wrD and weary.Is there a link or is it purely accidental? > > Bram de Visser, Holland Dear all, I'm Italian, and I'm concerned with the romance languages much more than with the Germanic etymology. You can often inherit from some lousy English sentences I happen to write, indeed ;o) I don't even have any English etymology dictionary. Nevertheless for most of the "normal" words a "normal" dictionary provides enough information about them, and anyone can have fun looking for the origin. As far as I'm concerned, for English I use Webster's College dictionary. So I can see that _weary_ (middle English _weri_ < old English _werig_) is akin to old High German _wuorag_ (drunk), and _wuorag_ derives from the Indo-European base _*wo:r-_ (giddiness, faintness). So does classical Greek _ho:rakian_ (to be giddy). No Egyptian origin. Sorry ;) Fabius ============================================================================== Subject: AEL Pyramid Texts Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 06:17:28 -0500 From: Michael G Smith To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Greetings All! I recently purchased a copy of Faulkner's Pyramid Texts, only to find that the number of original heiroglyphic text is limited. Does anyone know where I could find a copy of all of the utterances' original source material, either in print or on the web? Thank you in advance Michael Smith ============================================================================== From: "msv" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL align peasant Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:11:52 -0000 version = B1 <256> in rf wrS =i r =f iw in rf sxty pn r ; <256> shall I spend all day at it ? This peasant came in order to <257> spr n =f 5 nw sp Dd =f imy-r pr wr nb =i iw ; <257> petition for a 5th time. He said High Steward, my lord <258> xwdw Hr ???? mHyt ???? n ; <258> the fishermen are ???? fish <259> ??iw Hr smA ii st rmw ; <259> The fish-spearer <260> Hr xAx wbbw DabHw ; <260> is spearing the wbbw-fish, the Djabhu fisherman <261> r pAqrw iw wHaw xbA =f itrw ; <261> is after the pAqrw-fish. The fisherman ravages the river. msv ============================================================================== From: Ibanez2298@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:06:35 EST Subject: Re: AEL Ancient Egyptian words-modern words To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Could the name for the city Ur be somehow connected to Egyptian wr - "great"? Also, is their some connection between snsr - "incense" and censer? -Ryan Denzer-King ============================================================================== From: Calibore@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:51:38 EST Subject: AEL Palmanothes = ? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Dear List Subscribers: I have been struck by something that seems rather odd about the Palmanothes mentioned in Artapanus. This king is supposedly a contemporary of Khaneferre Sobekhotep IV and a presumed Hyksos ruler (given that the Pal- component is thought to represent 'Baal-'). But am I not correct in seeing -manothes (cf. Phamenoth, the month named for the feast of Amenothes/Amenophes/Amenhotep) as 'Amenothes'? If so, this would make for a Baal- ("Lord-") Amenhotep. Any thoughts? Thank you. Daniel Harnan ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Pyramid Texts Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:26:34 +0100 Michael Smith wrote: > Does anyone > know where I could find a copy of all of the utterances' original source > material, either in print or on the web? Alexandre Piankoff, The Pyramid of Unas, Princeton University Press, Princeton, 1968 (Bollingen Series XL, 5) - The pyramid texts of the pyramid of Unas on photographic plates [out of print] Kurt Sethe, Die altaegyptischen Pyramidentexte [The AE pyramid texts], 4 vols. in 3, Leipzig, 1908-22. 4. Reprint, Hildesheim, 2001. Hardcover, 1380 pp. ISBN: 3-487-02592-2, price: EUR 318,00. - Primary source. info: http://www.olms.de/mcgi/shop/produkt2.cgi?T=1011859675&aref=5698 Vols. 1 and 2 contain the hieroglyphic texts: vol. 1: http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1553.A1_1908_cop3 vol. 2: http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1553.A1_1908_vol2_cop3 Kurt Sethe, Uebersetzung und Kommentar zu den altaegyptischen Pyramidentexten [(German) Translation and commentary of the AE pyramid texts], Augustin, Glueckstadt, reprint, 6 vols. Hardcover, ca. 2400 pp. Price: EUR 461.18.- Still the starting point of every discussion of the pyramid texts. info: http://vlb2.buchhandelshop.de/mhtm/vlb/vlb_hier.phtml?ID=0218x1860262x23902&LID=&caller=&hier=autor%3Dsethe%2C%2520kurt%2A%26id%3DH%3A3 Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: Calibore@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:54:57 EST Subject: AEL Palmanothes query cont. To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk There were a number of Mentu-/Montu- kings around the time (roughly) of Khaneferres Sobekhotep IV. Could the -manothes of Palmanothes be an attempt at the Mentu/Montu- god name? I do seem to recall an inscription during the time of Ramses II (?) which has a conflation of Seth-Baal-Montu. One king in particular of the period in question I have found named either Wsr-Montu or Montu-wsr. This would appear to mean "the strong Montu" and not Osiris-Montu, but a Semitic speaker could have well taken wsr for the latter and substituted Baal for a presumed Osiris, yielding Baal-Montu/Mentu or "Palmanothes". Now everyone can tell me why this won't work... Best, Daniel Harnan ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:39:44 +0000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Kasia Szpakowska Subject: Re: AEL Pyramid Texts Kurt Sethe. Die Altaegyptischen Pyramidentexte Pyramidentexte nach den Papierabdrucken und Photographien des Berliner Museums. Leipzig : J. C. Hinrichs'sche Buchhandlung, 1908 is available online at: http://efts.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1553.A1_1908_cop3 Enjoy! --Kasia -- *********************************** Dr. Kasia Szpakowska Lecturer in Egyptology Department of Classics and Ancient History University of Wales Swansea Singleton Park, Swansea, SA2 8PP ============================================================================== Subject: RE: AEL Pyramid Texts Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:28:24 -0500 From: Michael G Smith To: "Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues" , "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Hello Patrick I am looking for the hieroglyphics. The book I have is Oxford University Press' Special edition for Sandpiper Books Ltd., 1998, of Faulkner's Pyramid Texts. It is a single volumn of the original 1969 two volumn set. Looking at the second volumn (a supplement containing Faulkner's handwritten hieroglyphics), I find that my version starts with Utterance 57a, while the first volumn, the english translation and notes, starts with Utterance 1. And there is quite a number of original Hieroglyphic utterances missings from the supplement. I am looking for a complete set. >Hello Michael, > >In English or in hieroglyphics? > >Yours, > >Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues >udjat@skynet.be >Udjat, Eye in the Sky ============================================================================== From: JDe2129629@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:42:56 EST Subject: Re: AEL Pyramid Texts To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Dear Michael Smith: The texts used by Faulkner were taken from Kurt Sethe, Die altagyptischen Pyramidentexte, in four volumes, Leipzig, 1908-22. The supplement has the texts that he used but were not in Sethe. They were discovered later. Since Faulkner's time additional texts have been recovered. I believe volume I of Sethe's work can be found at Adzu. Sincerely, John Deaton. ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:18:32 -0800 From: Marianne Luban To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Palmanothes = ? Calibore@aol.com wrote: > Dear List Subscribers: > > I have been struck by something that seems rather odd about the Palmanothes > mentioned in Artapanus. This king is supposedly a contemporary of Khaneferre > Sobekhotep IV and a presumed Hyksos ruler (given that the Pal- component is > thought to represent 'Baal-'). What Artapanos was trying to say is not that easy to understand. Wasn't it David Rohl's idea that the pharaoh "Khenephres" who married the daughter of "Palmanothes" was Khaneferre Sobekhotep IV? The 14th Dynasty was rather obscure--but I don't know that Sobekhotep married the daughter of a Hyksos--none of whom seems to have had the element "Baal" in their names. > But am I not correct in seeing -manothes (cf. Phamenoth, the month named for > the feast of Amenothes/Amenophes/Amenhotep) as 'Amenothes'? If so, this > would make for a Baal- ("Lord-") Amenhotep. As far as I know, there was no king "Amenhotep" contemporaneous with Sobekhotep. I get a bit suspicious when I see the wording "who was king over the regions beyond Memphis, for there were many kings in Egypt at this time" in connection with this "Khenephres" because that means he could just as likely been a local "prince" as well as an actual ruler with full pharaonic titles. This reminds me of something in the pHarris "the land of Egypt belonged to srw (mayors?) niwt, who slew one another whether noble or commoner." "Palmanothes" might be "BA-n-ra-mrynTrw"--except the ending worries me. Even though "god" (nTr) was vocalized with the /r/ dropped, gods" was pronounced with an /r/. Example, an official was named "NbnTrw"--but he says his nickname was "Teri". Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:26:40 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?BrigitteGoede?= Subject: Re : AEL : Winglyph To: AEL Post Anschrift Glyph for windows/Winglyph has got a Gardiner fond type and is including more than 700 hieroglyphic signs. It is just for professional (Egyptologist's, Student's) use on university level.I work with it since years and write hieroglyphic texts for my students and for publishing egyptological literature. It is the best system for hieroglyphic writing I ever worked with and the quickest to use. You can write in columns and change the writing direction with very few mouse-clicks. Disadvantage: For quickest use You need to know the transliterations of 700 different hieroglyphic signs and/or know their Gardiner registration-numbers, although it contains Gardiners full list, where You can click at the signs to put them into the text. You can switch easily to rubra (red signs), when you are writing recipes of medical Papyrus Ebers. I am not sure if they sell Winglyph to private hands. Tell me if you need more information. I use Winglyph more often then my hearth. Brigitte Goede, Philologist, School for Adult Education, Wilhelmshaven, teaching Egyptology and Hieroglyphic writing ============================================================================== From: "Renaud de Spens" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL Pyramid Texts Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:20:56 +0100 The adress of the egyptian language web directory of Thotweb is http://perso.wanadoo.fr/thotweb/portail/langue.htm (the root page is more conveniently remembered as www.thotweb.com). The link to K. Sethe Pyramid Texts is to be found under the heading "textes religieux". It is, as Kasia already pointed out, http://efts.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1553=2EA1_1908_cop. Best wishes, Renaud de Spens. ============================================================================== From: Serge ROSMORDUC Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:22:32 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL MdC Hello, As there seems to be significant interest in the Manuel de Codage, I have decided to extend the scope of the hieroxml mailing list to it. I have set up a page about this on : http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/HieroEncoding/ Now, I suggest that interested persons join the list. A possible path I have in mind would be to produce a set of free software basic tools, most probably in a language like java, for everyone to use. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Morrison" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language" Subject: AEL Two GlyphPro Questions Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 12:44:27 +1030 Hi, I recently bought GlyphPro Version 2.0, and have the following questions that other users may be able to help me with: 1. In the Coptic font, which key generates the Coptic symbol for the sound "sh"? 2. When I try to print a hieroglyphic document from the "print preview", I get an "illegal operation" message, and the document won't print. However, the Winglyph program does communicate with my printer, because I can print the encoded format. At the moment, in order to print hieroglyphs, I have to copy each hieroglyphic sentence into a Word document. If I have any "Latin" text, that does not transport into my Word document; I have to type it in later. Does anyone know the answer to either of these two problems? Many Thanks, Anne Morrison South Australia ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:36:31 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Brigitte Goede?= Subject: AEL Re: Palmanothes? To: AEL Post Anschrift I recently read -I do not remember where in egyptological scientific G literature-, that Palmanothes may be here no name of a pharao but the name of a town in the Delta pr-mnTw, Per-Monthu = House of (the God) Month. This sounds etymologically logical for Brigitte Goede ============================================================================== From: "Thomas Sima" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Ancient Egyptian words-modern words: Ur vs. "wr" Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:45:59 -0500 I would think it very unlikely that Ur would be related to "wr" in Egyptian. To begin with, Sumerian is a non-Indo-European, non-Semitic, non-Hamitic language that some scholars have tried to connect linguistically with such languages as Georgian (or other languages of the Caucasus), Chinese, Finnish, Turkish and Basque. The language was already dead by around 2000 B.C. While it did have a considerable impact on the vocabulary of Akkadian, there seems to have been almost no cross-fertilization with Egyptian (I cannot think of ANY instance of a Sumerian word being transplanted into Egyptian except for in the transliteration of about 4 or 5 Akkadian words of Sumerian origin, most notably Akk. ekallu, Heb. heikhal, Aram. haykla, "temple" from the Sumerian e2.gal, "large house", although the .gal is not used in Sumerian descriptions of temples, only the e2). Secondly, the very pronunciation as "Ur" is something that sparks numerous debates among Sumerologists, who still haven't come close to where Egyptologists are with respect to Egyptian phonology. The signs that make up the word translated as "Ur" are traditionally represented by "Urim5", which is most likely the symbol for the moon god Nanna followed by the "bad3" sign meaning wall or city. Some Sumerologists still think that the first sign is the "shesh" sign, which means "brother", and not the "Nanna" sign. In any event, the etymology doesn't seem to have anything to do with "great", which in Sumerian is "gal". Making any sort of assertion is complicated by the fact that many names have no connection to the phonetic implications of their writings; for example, the city of Nippur is believed to have been pronounced as "Nibru" but it is spelled as "En.lil2.ki" meaning "city of Enlil", which everyone presumably would know to be Nippur. So, I would say there is almost no chance that "wr" has any connection to "Ur". Still, there is almost no way to conclusively prove the etymology of the word. It is believed to be a "substrate" name, that is, perhaps from a pre-Sumerian language that is lost entirely. ============================================================================== From: Calibore@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 09:50:04 EST Subject: Re: AEL Re: Palmanothes? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk In a message dated 1/27/2002 5:23:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, brigittegoede@yahoo.de writes: > I recently read -I do not remember where in egyptological scientific > > G > literature-, that Palmanothes may be here no name of a pharao but the > name of a town in the Delta pr-mnTw, Per-Monthu = House of (the God) > Month. This sounds etymologically logical for > > Brigitte Goede Brigitte, Thank you. I have followed this up and found the following in the AEL archives: The location referred to is now known as "Arment" (the Northern On having been Heliopolis), formerly "On-Montu" or "Per-Montu" from which the Greeks derived "Hermonthis". This town is about nine miles upstream from Luxor. Daniel Harnan ==============================================================================