From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:38:00 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... On 13 Jul 97 at 17:08, Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > A start on translating Geoff's transcription. Come on lurkers, put in 2c! We seem to have somehow lost the momentum with the Westcar text. Where is everyone? As of just now we have 164 people subscribed to this list. Many of you have been here since the start, and some of you are new. If you are new, and feel that you would be able to have a go at the Westcar text, please feel free to post your translation attempt to the list. There are people here of all levels of ability from complete beginners upwards. No-one here going is going to tease or flame you if you make a mistake! If you don't have access to a printed copy of the material, the story of Khufu and the magician is available on the AEL web page. The world wide web address is given at the bottom of this message. Simply point your web browser at that address, and then click on "Khufu and the magician". This will take you to the main westcar page. You can then click on links to view the hieroglyphs; we are currently on page 3, about to turn over to page 4. You can also click on "Transliteration" to see the transliteration of the first 4 pages. Probably the most impressive feature that Mike has given us in his preparation of this text is available by clicking on vocabulary "page 1" or "Page 2". You'll need a web browser that supports frames for this. On these pages, you are presented with the hieroglyphic text a line at a time in the upper frame. You can click on any glyph within the line and the translation for that glyph appears automatically in the lower frame! Mike informs me that he is currently working on the vocabulary for page 3, which should be available soon. So, come on everyone, let's not keep king Khufu waiting!! ;-) Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:31:48 +1000 (EST) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Linda Evans Subject: Re: AEL New lurkers We seem to have somehow lost the momentum with the Westcar text. >Where is everyone? As of just now we have 164 people subscribed to >this list. Many of you have been here since the start, and some of >you are new. If you are new, and feel that you would be able to have >a go at the Westcar text, please feel free to post your translation >attempt to the list. There are people here of all levels of ability >from complete beginners upwards. No-one here going is going to >tease or flame you if you make a mistake! Dear Mark, Thanks so much for letting new list people (like myself) know how to go about joining in with the Westcar text. And for the encouragement to 'give it a go'. I'll try to put in my rusty 2 cents worth soon! Linda Evans ____________________ Linda Evans Animal Behaviour Lab Department of Psychology Macquarie University Sydney NSW 2109 Australia fax: +61 2 9850-9233 voice: +61 2 9850-9231 ____________________ ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:06:41 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , OsirisList Subject: AEL Pages Updated Just to let people know, I've updated my Egyptian web pages - the latest updates to Westcar (from Mike Dyall-Smith) and some new pages for my Little Egyptian Reading Book. http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/egypt.html -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:35:35 -0700 Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... From: n-ael@juno.com (Nancy2 R Tomasheski) Well, here's what I have. It's the end of web-page 3, right? ( I don't have a DeBuck either -- I know, a big hole in my library. Perhaps we could refer to web-page lines as well as DeBuck pages?) I frequently prefer to leave Dj-jn untranslated, using instead a colon like in a film script. "His Majesty: 'Then the truth it is, this speech? Are you knowledgeable in the way of restoring a cut-off head?' "Djedi: 'I am knowledgeable [of it], O Sovereign, all l.h.s.' "His Majesty: ''Let's do it! Bring to me one prisoner who is in [the] prison and [let us] damage him!' And that's as far as I have gone! I haven't even transcribed web-site page 4 yet . . . but I'll get right on it. P.S. I am fond of watching for humorous suggestions in the spell checker; for this posting, the clear winner was "DeBunk" for "DeBuck". -Nancy R. Tomasheski n-ael@juno.com ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:09:52 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List CC: OsirisList Subject: Re: AEL Pages Updated Dear Stephen: You are creating something that will be useful to budding Egyptologists for a long time. I hope you know how much we all appreciate it. Pat Stephen Fryer wrote: > Just to let people know, I've updated my Egyptian web pages - the > latest > updates to Westcar (from Mike Dyall-Smith) and some new pages for my > Little Egyptian Reading Book. > http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/egypt.html > > -- > Stephen Fryer > Lund Computer Services > > ************************************************** > The more answers I find, the more questions I have > ************************************************** -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:26:58 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL Westcar pp. 81-... Dear Nancy: good! De Buck's Page 81, line 10 = Page 3, line 16 of the AEL page, ie. Dj.jn Hm=f jn-jw m3'.t pw p3-Dd your translation: 'Then the truth it is, this speech? As Serge pointed out to me in my attempted translation, the particle _in_ fronting the sentence is called an interrogative particle (see Gardiner, p402). It can be used alone, but the combination _in-iw_ is also commonly used. In fact, Gardiner p403, section 492, actually gives this exact sentence from Westcar as an example of the use of _in-iw_, describing it as a 'special interrogative phrase' that can be put at the start of a sentence without altering its syntax. So in this case, _m3't pw p3-Dd_ could be used as a statement "this saying is true (lit. truth)", but such a sentence would never have _iw_ placed at the front of it. Put _in-iw_ at the front and you get the corresponding question, "Is this saying true (lit. truth)..." _m3't pw p3-Dd_ = a typical sentence with nominal predicate, of the form NOUN pw NOUN, where the _pw_ acts as a 'copula' or simple joining word, indicating the connection (nexus) between subject and predicate. In this case, the usual interpretation is that the subject is the SECOND noun, ie. p3-Dd, so it comes first in the english translation, and the predicate is the first noun, ie. m3't (truth). So your translation: 'Then the truth it is, this speech?' would be better if made more clearly a question. The word _Dd_ , a noun derived from the verb (presumably the infinitive?), 'to say/speak', could be translated as several words, but 'saying' is fairly close. You will note below that Gardiner follows the egyptian syntax more closely than I did ('saying' comes before 'truth'). Gardiner's translation: "Is this saying true (lit. truth)..." My translation: "What truth is there in the saying ..." Serge prefers: "Is it the truth, that saying ..." Does this make any sense to you Nancy? Any comments from others? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au -------------------------------------- Date: 16/7/97 5:02 AM To: Michael Dyall-Smith From: Ancient Egyptian Language List Well, here's what I have. It's the end of web-page 3, right? ( I don't have a DeBuck either -- I know, a big hole in my library. Perhaps we could refer to web-page lines as well as DeBuck pages?) I frequently prefer to leave Dj-jn untranslated, using instead a colon like in a film script. "His Majesty: 'Then the truth it is, this speech? Are you knowledgeable in the way of restoring a cut-off head?' "Djedi: 'I am knowledgeable [of it], O Sovereign, all l.h.s.' "His Majesty: ''Let's do it! Bring to me one prisoner who is in [the] prison and [let us] damage him!' And that's as far as I have gone! I haven't even transcribed web-site page 4 yet . . . but I'll get right on it. P.S. I am fond of watching for humorous suggestions in the spell checker; for this posting, the clear winner was "DeBunk" for "DeBuck". -Nancy R. Tomasheski n-ael@juno.com ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:18:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... Hi, Nancy, Thanks for the translation. Nice job! I must say, however, that it is a little difficult to follow without a transliteration. I will attempt to work my own into your message before commenting. This takes a little cutting and pasting. Dj.jn Hm=f > "His Majesty: jn-jw m3'.t pw p3-Dd > 'Then the truth it is, this speech? jn-jw is a question word expecting a yes or no answer. I would render this: "Is the saying true". One could liberate the English a little with: "Is it true what they say" but of course this is free-form. jw=k rx.tj T3s tp Hsq.w > Are you knowledgeable in the way of restoring a cut-off head?' This continues the previous question: "Is the saying true that you know how to (re)join a severed head?" Dd.jn Ddj > "Djedi: tjw jw=j rx.kw > 'I am knowledgeable [of it], jt.y 'nx.w wD3.w snb.w nb=j > O Sovereign, all l.h.s.' "O sovereign, life, prosperity, health, my lord" Dd.jn Hm=f > His Majesty: jmmj jnj=tw n=j xnr nty m xnr.t > 'Let's do it! Bring to me one prisoner who is in [the] prison "Cause that one bring..." or "let there be brought...", but otherwise pretty good. Let me just insert a grammatical note here. jmmj (or jmj in Gardiner) is the imperative of rdj "give/cause/allow/place/put". This verb is often used as an auxiliary with other verbs, making them causative. jmmj jnj=tw shows the imperative of rdj, and the subjunctive of jnj with the indefinite personal suffix ending. Any verb that comes after rdj or immj in this fashion will always be subjuntive. The suffix =tw can either be translated as "one/some indefinite person" or it can make the verb passive. wdj.w nkn=f > and [let us] damage him!' The problem you have here encountered is that wdj did not seem to have any person performing the action. You have taken the liberty of adding "we". When there is no pronoun on a verb, you must consider various possibilities. It could be that the first person singular pronoun was omitted in writing. It could be that the verb is actually a participle modifying some previously mentioned noun. It could be that it is a thrid person masucline or plural Stative form, but only if the subject comes before it as either a noun, a dependent pronoun, or a suffix appended to something else. Another very important possibility to consider is whether the verb form could be passive... wdj.w is a passive sDm.w=f. Notice that the /w/ is not written in the text, but it must be there in order to make sense. The verb follows soon after other verbs, immj jnj=tw. In order to make the sentence flow, you can do as you have done, and translate it as a weak circumstantial using "and", or you could make it into another subjunctive and get: "that his sentence might be carried out". Quite literally the the idiom says: "his damage is struck". One has to get creative to make this sound like real English. ;-) All in all, you have done a great job. Thank you for your contribution. I hope you will do some more with us soon. Anyone else want to have a go? No one will be beaten up for mistakes. These texts are pretty hard. I make plenty of mistakes myself. ;-) The subtleties can be quite excruciating. Getting the grammar perfect takes a miracle, so just understanding this, realize that it is perfectlynormal to make mistakes and even the "experts" will have different interpretations of things. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:01:20 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Pages Updated Patrick C. Ryan wrote: > You are creating something that will be useful to budding > Egyptologists > for a long time. I hope you know how much we all appreciate it. Thank you. I hope that you are correct, and that I am not going to lead too many people astray through my own (very) imperfect knowledge. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:26:29 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > The word _Dd_ , a noun derived from the verb > (presumably the infinitive?), 'to say/speak', could be translated as > several > words, but 'saying' is fairly close. You will note below that Gardiner > follows > the egyptian syntax more closely than I did ('saying' comes before The form of Dd is probably a participle, so the tranlslation of pA Dd as "this saying" would be accurate but rather strange English syntax. We would probably use a pseudo-impersonal like "what they say" -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:01:19 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Re(2): AEL Westcar pp. 81-... To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk wdj.w nkn=f Geoff is no doubt correct in analysing wdi(w) as a sDm(w).f passive. This is not the passive form that one expects, as it tends to be a past tense (and also limited to places that the "circumstantial sDm.f" are used--not in purpose clauses). A purpose clause ("so that his punishment may be executed") works very nicely here. So what is happening here? There actually are some good examples of a prospective sDm(w).f passive (i.e. subjunctive or prospective). These examples are generally not found in standard Middle Kingdom literary texts, but it looks like we have one here. This may have been a somewhat archaic form. Serge raised points about nty that normally hold true. True, every once in a while there are cases that don't seem to work--these are rare enough, however, to make Serge's suggested translation as "the prisoner" likely. The use of the concept of "definite" (vs. indefinite) is often a subtle point. Here the king is speaking, and he may have a particular prisoner in mind--or there may have been only one prisoner. Djedi, on the other hand, would use constructions/modifiers that would be appropriate for the concept of "indefinite" (how would he know who was in prison--if anyone?) James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:04:21 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... I though I had sent something to the list about the passage, but I don't see it, so I suppose I have made a mistake and answered only the sender of the initial message. So here is a little grammatical comment : In theory, 'nty' introduces a kind of relative proposition called "determinative", vs. other relatives that are only "descriptive". A simple example will help : Suppose you want to buy a car, and there are three cars available; a white, a green, and a red. If you say : "I want the car which is red" you differentiate it from the others. "Which is red" allows to know what car you are speaking about. This is a determinative relative clause. You can't suppress it in the sentence. In this case, the egyptian would use "nty" "Now, I saw a car, which was red, ..." here the relative is simply used to help describe the car. You could supress it from the sentence. This, for the ancient egytian, wasn't a relative clause : they felt this kind of precision was akin to circumtances (remember that to express something is temporary or unessential, the egyptian language ressorts to adverbial constructs : iw=k m ntr vrs. ntk nTr) so they used the so-called "virtual relative clauses" which are only relative clauses for us in our translations. A consequence of the use of nty is that the antecedent of the relative becomes grammatically determined (the relative distinguishes it from anything else). So, if it had been 'a prisoner, who is in jail', we would have had xnr iw=f m xnrt But xnr nty m xnrt means : the prisoner who is in jail (in the palace's jail ?) regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 5, rue Beranger 92240 Malakoff tel 01 48 70 37 13 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:53:38 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Pages Updated Dear Stephen: The only real imperfection in the world is when someone thinks he is perfect. Pat Stephen Fryer wrote: > Patrick C. Ryan wrote: > > > You are creating something that will be useful to budding > > Egyptologists > > for a long time. I hope you know how much we all appreciate it. > > Thank you. I hope that you are correct, and that I am not going to > lead > too many people astray through my own (very) imperfect knowledge. > > -- > Stephen Fryer > Lund Computer Services > > ************************************************** > The more answers I find, the more questions I have > ************************************************** -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:17:06 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... Dear Michael: My suggestuon is: "Is that which is said the truth?" Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > Reply to: RE>>AEL Westcar pp. 81-... > > Dear Nancy: good! > > De Buck's Page 81, line 10 = Page 3, line 16 > of the AEL page, ie. > > Dj.jn Hm=f jn-jw m3'.t pw p3-Dd > > your translation: 'Then the truth it is, this speech? > -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:48:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... Hi, Pat, > My suggestion is: "Is that which is said the truth?" > > Dj.jn Hm=f jn-jw m3'.t pw p3-Dd I think this is a very good suggestion. Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:51:22 -0700 From: Gabi Barnickel To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Sign Question The word sD - to break is sometimes written with a determinative I cannot find in any sign list. It looks a little bit like a fish or a hand but in the wrong direction. I think it should be something broken, may be a pot. Does anybody know which sign it is or what it shows? Thanks in advance. Gabi Barnickel Gabriele.Barnickel@mch.sni.de ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:23:28 -0700 Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... From: n-ael@juno.com (Nancy2 R Tomasheski) Geoff: Sorry about skipping the transliteration; I thought I'd save myself a few keystrokes. I will heretofore include it! >jn-jw is a question word expecting a yes or no answer.< Thanks. That does change the translation angle. I still prefer, for personal aesthetics, the use of two sentences, and do not believe this is inconsistent with the author's intent. >"O sovereign, life, prosperity, health, my lord"< I was going to insist on "all life, prosperity, and health", but the determinants have prevented me from doing so. One cannot just ignore Hor on his standard! Faulkner shows 'Give! Place! Cause!" for jmmj, which I chose to liberalize, expecting dissent (much more than has been received!!) Being an imperative, jmmj expects to be translated as an imperative, not subjugated to a passive clause. Since "Cause!" sounds ridiculous in English, I selected "Let's do it!" as the closest of several possibilities (including Yes! and Okay!). None of these sound particularly pharaohly, though; worth considering. You continue: >This verb[jmmj] is often used as an auxiliary with other verbs, making them causative. Any verb that comes after rdj or immj in this fashion will always be subjunctive. < Noted. >wdj.w nkn=f< wdi nkn taken together may be translated as "do harm" (Faulkner), and with the f suffix, "harm him" is the first translation to come to mind. However, it is not strong enough for the context. We are talking about cutting off a head! I chose to emphasize the nkn "damage" part of the phrase. I did not run across anywhere the expression "execute his sentence" for this phrase, as it was translated by others on the list. As for my "[let us] damage him.", I could just as easily have left the "let us" out entirely -- as our Egyptian author has done --, without changing either flow or sense in English: Bring to me a prisoner who is in the prison, and damage him! Oh, and about "Bring to me" v. "Cause that there be brought" ; either is fine, but we must include the "to me" because we have n i. As always, thank you for your informative discussion! Unfortunately, I am going out of town for the weekend! I am nearly through with the next few lines, and I may be able to post them before leaving, but I will not be able to participate in discussions until Monday : (. Nancy R. Tomasheski n-ael@juno.com ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:12:03 -0700 Subject: AEL More Translation From: n-ael@juno.com (Nancy2 R Tomasheski) Here is my translation of the next few lines. It is a essentially a first draft; there are a few points at which I am still seeking the perfect word or phrase. Dd in DDi n is n r(m)t i ' Ds nb(w)-i Djedi: "Indeed not! Not people, O Sovereign, l.h.s., my lord. M"k n wD-tw irt mnt iry n t3-'wt Spsyt "Behold, such a thing is forbidden [to do to] the noble cattle! ' h'n jnj-n-f smn wD'w tp-f "Bring to him a goose [and] cut off his head ' h'n rdwy p3 smn r gb3 jmnt n w3xy Place the goose at the western side of the columned forecourt, D3D3-f r gb3 j3bty n w3xy "his head at the eastern side of the columned forecourt." ' h' n Dd n DDi Ddt-f m Hk3 Djedi spoke his words of magic. wn in p3 smn ' h' Hr Hb3b3 Then the goose stood and waddled D3D3-f m mtt and his head [did] likewise. xr m nxt spr-f w' r w' And further, when one arrived at the other . . . -Nancy R. Tomasheski n-ael@juno.com ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:17:37 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Sign Question Dear Gabi: Gardiner does recognize this sign --- almost as D47, which appears to me to be the sign with the fingers of the hand pointing to the left rather than to the right as in sD. I do not think there is anything more complicated here than a cupped hand (clenched fingers) suggesting the idea of "crushing". Pat Gabi Barnickel wrote: > The word sD - to break is sometimes written with a determinative I > cannot find in any sign list. It looks a little bit like a fish or a > hand but in the wrong direction. I think it should be something > broken, > may be a pot. > Does anybody know which sign it is or what it shows? > > Thanks in advance. > > Gabi Barnickel > Gabriele.Barnickel@mch.sni.de -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:11:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Sign Question Hi, Gabi, > The word sD - to break is sometimes written with a determinative I > cannot find in any sign list. It looks a little bit like a fish or a > hand but in the wrong direction. I think it should be something broken, > may be a pot. > Does anybody know which sign it is or what it shows? It is a jar with a piece missing from it, having been broken. This is an Old Kingdom determinative, and hence Gardiner does not list it in his textbook which deals with Middle Egyptian. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:44:19 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Re(2): AEL Westcar pp. 81-... To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk About the use of imi (the imperative of rdi) + passive prospective sDm.f... The construction does, indeed, start off with an imperative, but one must also look at use in context. This construction is regularly used by inferiors to their superiors, and is fairly clearly a "polite request" as opposed to an ordinary "command" (polite or otherwise). The mechanism is a distancing one... i.e. it is less direct than saying "Give me two ships..."--which would be appropriate for a superior speaking to an inferior, but the socially inferior person would say: "Let two ships be given to me..." by means of this construction. James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:11:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL More Translation Hi, Nancy, Thanks for the further contribution. > Dd in DDi n is n r(m)t i ' Ds nb(w)-i ^ 'nx.w wD3.w snb.w Of course you were abbreviating it. right? > Djedi: "Indeed not! Not people, O Sovereign, l.h.s., my lord. Great! This works. > M"k n wD-tw irt mnt iry n t3-'wt Spsyt > "Behold, such a thing is forbidden [to do to] the noble cattle! Yes. Quite good. Literally "n wD=tw" means "it is not commanded". I might have used "Hey, doing such a thing is not permitted for higher animals!" 'w.t can sometimes be used as a generic word for "animal/mammal". I think, in combination with "Sps.y.t" "august/sublime/noble/high-born" it is actually the Egyptian idiom for "humankind". > ' h'n jnj-n-f smn wD'w tp-f > "Bring to him a goose [and] cut off his head Pretty good, but the problem is once again that we have not just one passive verb form here but TWO, which is admittedly quite confusing. I would break it up differently first of all: 'H'.n jnj(.w) n=f smn wD'(.w) tp=f See, the dative element n=f intervenes between the verb and its subject because of the surface reordering of pronouns. This makes it look as if it were a sDm.n=f, but it is not. However, for some reason you have translated it as an imperative. Maybe you instinctively understood that something was not quite right about this supposed sDm.n=f! I would translate it as: "Then a goose was brought to him and its head was removed." > ' h'n rdwy p3 smn r gb3 jmnt n w3xy > Place the goose at the western side of the columned forecourt, Pretty good, all words are right but... once again, there is a passive sDm.w=f in this sentence. It is the most difficult form to recognize, and we all often forget that they exist. Just change your "rdwy" into "rdj.w" and it will become more apparent. "Then the goose was placed on the west side of the audience-hall," > D3D3-f r gb3 j3bty n w3xy > "his head at the eastern side of the columned forecourt." Perfect. > ' h' n Dd n DDi Ddt-f m Hk3 > Djedi spoke his words of magic. Correct. Let me just put a more literal version for those who need it: "Then Djedi said his sayings in magic" > wn in p3 smn ' h' Hr Hb3b3 > Then the goose stood and waddled Excellent. > D3D3-f m mtt > and his head [did] likewise. Right. Literally: "his head in like-fashion" > xr m nxt spr-f w' r w' > And further, when one arrived at the other . . . Yes, this part does get difficult but you have done very well. First change your "nxt" to "xt", then try: "After he had arrived, one to the other..." I almost wonder if the =f does not refer to Djedi, and the spr is not in some fashion causative (analyzed as "s-prj"), meaning: "After he (Djedi) had caused one to go toward the other..." Is this plausible? See, even I who have read this text many times before, am still debating bits of it with myself. Wow, Nancy, you really did a very nice job! Very few problems at all, just a few passive forms which confused you. I hope you will get this before you leave for your weekend. Have a nice trip! Be well. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:04:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Sign Question Hi, Pat, > Gardiner does recognize this sign --- almost as D47, which appears to me > to be the sign with the fingers of the hand pointing to the left rather > than to the right as in sD. I can see why you might make this confusion, however the sign to which Gabi was referring is different from Gardiner D47. Notice Gardiner's note about that sign: "hand with curved palm Det in Drt 'hand' when written phonetically; see last." ("last" in this case is the regular hand used for {d}.) This is a very specific use having nothing to do with sD. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:36:55 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Re(2): AEL More Translation To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk A few points: n wD.tw irt mnt iry... This is a past tense construction: "Doing something like that has not been ordained..." Geoff is right that the sDm(w).f passive is difficult to recognize. Here are a couple of suggestions. The aHa.n sDm.n.f usually has the (circumstantial) sDm.n.f. If there is no N, then try a sDm(w).f passive. Also look for the subject--is the subject the doer of the action? There are examples of aHa.n sDm.f (i.e. without an N, but these are quite rare). James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:18:20 -0700 Subject: Re: AEL More Translation From: n-ael@juno.com (Nancy2 R Tomasheski) Hi Geoff. Thanks for your comments! >'nx.w wD3.w snb.w : Of course you were abbreviating it. right?< Right. I like to do this to (1) save myself writing life, prosperity (my "s" is a mistype, thinking of the old "life,health,strength"), health over and over and . . . and to (2) indicate that it is almost an aside. I have never really bothered to translate into good English before, since I was always translating for myself. I am having fun! I will make a post-it note with the word PASSIVE! on it, and stick it to the computer. :) And review the relevant section(s) in Gardiner. I am getting just what I wanted from the list, a way to improve rather than just maintain my AEL. Thanks. >> wn in p3 smn ' h' Hr Hb3b3 Then the goose stood and waddled >Excellent. < Wow! I wasn't too sure at all about Hr as "and", despite Faulkner's assurance; still, it was the only way to make sense. >> xr m nxt spr-f w' r w' And further, when one arrived at the other . . . >Yes, this part does get difficult but you have done very well. First change your "nxt" to "xt", then try: "After he had arrived, one to the other..." < > I almost wonder if the =f does not refer to Djedi, and the spr is not in some fashion causative (analyzed as "s-prj"), meaning: "After he (Djedi) had caused one to go toward the other..." Is this plausible? < I ignored the f of spr-f because I didn't like it. But I think you are probably right that it refers to Djedi. Perhaps the general sense is something like: "After he [Djedi] had brought the two parts together", which of course we cannot use since it is completely different than what the Egyptian actually _says_. Your suggestion matches better, and is certainly plausible! Much of the fun of the language for me is in our lack of certainty about any given interpretation and the debate and wonderful variety of interpretations from people with different perspectives. Until Monday - -Nancy R. Tomasheski n-ael@juno.com ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:50:36 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL [Fwd: Hieratic Font-building] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D76BDC4A71B73A93274770C4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seemed as though this message might be of interest to people on this list also (although I know that a good many on this list also subscribe to Osiris - my apologies for inflicting it on them twice!) -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** --------------D76BDC4A71B73A93274770C4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-POP3-Rcpt: sfryer@ranma Return-Path: OsirisList@aol.com Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by prcn.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02398 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:29:13 -0700 From: OsirisList@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA27066; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970716232255_138097197@emout17.mail.aol.com> Subject: Hieratic Font-building From: geoffrey.graham@yale.edu (Graham) To: OsirisList@aol.com Hi, > There is now software for the PC which makes creating fonts from > handwiting, or any other document, fairly easy - ScanFont. I tried a Great. I use a macintosh though. > Publishing things on the web can make a big difference in one's approach > to things - a picture will take up A LOT more space/bandwidth than the This is true, but don't people all have to have the font installed if they want to see it on their screens? Pardon my computer illiteracy! ;-) > I could say the same for Hieroglyphic fonts, which no one seems to have > a problem with - there are not only differences by period in monumental Yes, true again. I think that people should definitely work with as many possible different types of hieroglyphic hands as possible. I remember that various people in my second year Egyptian class had a very hard time adjusting to anything other than Gardinerian fonts. > I'm not sure whether the audience would be quite so restricted as you > seem to think. We may be in a situation where there is very little > interest in learning hieratic because the material is not available so > nobody bothers to make it available. I just don't know. Do you really think many people would buy such books if they existed? It seems to me that it would be limited to people who had already learned Egyptian hieroglyphs and that is a small enough pool of people as it is! By the way I have found it curious > that the Ancient Egyptians scribes seem to have learned hieratic first > and not all of them went on to hieroglyphs, and some of those barely > passed the course - pretty much the exact opposite of what we do now! Isn't that interesting? I was aware of this but it still boggles my mind. It seems like they would have had trouble learning sings without knowing what they were supposed to represent. Stephen, I think the answer to your thoughts on making hieratic fonts is, why not get the software? You will probably find many uses for it in the future. You can maeke as many fonts as you want. There is no way that anyone would ever be able to fit all hieratic signs into a single font anyway. As you are working on a particular project, just build the combinations of signs you need as single characters. It would be virtually impossible to make a font ligature itself. I have done this kind of thing for small Demotic passages before. It would even take rather little time with a program that scans characters rather than your having to build them from scratch with drawing tools as I have had to do. Yours, Geoff sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu --------------D76BDC4A71B73A93274770C4-- ==============================================================================