To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:09:46 -0700 Subject: AEL Aten on the Web From: n-ael@juno.com (Nancy2 R Tomasheski) Regarding Jacob's suggestion/offer of preparing "collected discussion notes" on the Hymn to the Aten: Sounds good to me! I suppose there will be some concern that we will be distracted from Westcar if we get involved in something else. But I do not see that being a problem; especially as even the Long Hymn is shorter than our Westcar story. -Nancy R. Tomasheski n-ael@juno.com ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:25:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL improved transcription I had not realized that. Thanks for pointing it out. Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:53:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hymn to the Aten Hi, Jacob, > I was very impressed by the collected discussion notes for the Westcar, and > would like to try something similar with the Hymn to the Aten (the version > from the Tomb of Ay) . I'm wondering how much interest there is among list > members in such an undertaking, and how best to make the material available. I would be up for it certainly. If you scan it, can you also send it via email to those of us who are presently separated from web brousers? Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:31:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL T and t Hi, Stephen and Marianne, > I find it interesting, though, that in Coptic, words that formerly began > with t stayed t while those beginning with T mostly wound up "dj". Egyptian affricates tended to be lost. (/T/ > /t/ and /D/ > /d/) Meanwhile, voicing (or emphaticness, depending on which phonologists you follow) also was lost over time. Coptic had very few voiced stops (since Coptic {b} probably actually represented /v/ we can actually say that it had none at all). The "dj" Marianne is mentioning was actually most likely voiceless and more like "tj". However, phonetic environment is the most important factor. Not all affricates were lost, and meanwhile velar consonants were being palatalized to fill in the gaps left by former affricates. Initial affricates were much more likely to keep their palatal quality than those in medial and final positions. That > is why I made the above suggestion, although I am probably wrong. Yes, > there are some accents where there is scarcely any difference between t > and d--and the Coptic certainly seems to reflect that happening in > Egyptian. Ti seems to be part of this picture. Your are quite right. In Coptic /d/ and /t/ have completely conflated into /t/. This is one reason why there is still a debate as to whether d and D represented voiced stops or emphatic stops. In Coptic they do not survive as distinct from /D/ and /T/ so that we would be able to tell. However D survives into > Coptic mainly as "dj". The Coptic letter which has received the Arabic name "djandja" is presently bleived to represent the "tjch" sound. Can anybody think of any words in which d and D > alternated in spellings during the same period? fnd/fnD, snd/snD, words where d follows right after D, I wonder if they could have been > pronounced alike. P.S--it wasn't my imagination. At some point the > *reed-stalk* was the pronoun "I". That's why "iw", without a /k/ being > "you" in this case doesn't surprise me too much. Very curious. You are quite right, reed-stalk can represent "I/me". One does not find this happening with "you" however. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cia.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Jul 97 14:17:07 UT From: "jacob rabinowitz" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Posting the Hymn Dear Mr. Graham, I could certainly post the gif to the list as an embedded file -- would this suffice to send copies? Also, Ms. Tomasheski's comment is very to the point; I would be reluctant to diffuse the energies going into the Westcar discussion. What might be better is if I were to make a complete parsed transcription and translation of the text and post it, more as a resource than as a focus for ongoing translation. Some questions and criticism would hopefully come up, but not to an extent that would compromise the ongoing Westcar project. Now my own Egyptian is not entirely adequate to the task of preparing a commentary that would pass muster -- so I would like to know if someone more advanced would be willing to check my work before it's posted. I could mail it in "hard copy" for red-pencilling, then institute the changes in the html file. So then, is there a Scribe who'd be willing to take me on as an apprentice-transcriber for the length of 13 columns on Ay's West Wall? Jacob Rabinowitz, fas22@msn.com ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:36:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Posting the Hymn Hi, Jacob, > I could certainly post the gif to the list as an embedded file -- would this > suffice to send copies? Don't do that. We cannot post attachments to the list, otherwise certain people will get annoyed since they have to spend money and time to download. What you should do is offer to send it to anyone who emials you for it. > Also, Ms. Tomasheski's comment is very to the point; I would be reluctant to > diffuse the energies going into the Westcar discussion. For some reason nothing is happening in the Westcar discussion at all, and I would not suggest that we suppress other activities for the benefit of a project that seems to be all but dead. If we wish to keep this list alive, it will have to be dynamic and extemporaneous to a certain degree. If Amarna texts take people's fancy for the time being, then let's have at it! People will more than likely peter out on them too eventually, but there should always be an avenue for new discussios to begin. What might be better > is if I were to make a complete parsed transcription and translation of the > text and post it, more as a resource than as a focus for ongoing translation. > Some questions and criticism would hopefully come up, but not to an extent > that would compromise the ongoing Westcar project. That might work. > Now my own Egyptian is not entirely adequate to the task of preparing a > commentary that would pass muster -- so I would like to know if someone more > advanced would be willing to check my work before it's posted. I could mail it > in "hard copy" for red-pencilling, then institute the changes in the html > file. I would be happy to help you out, but I suggest that doing this on the list might be more instructive and useful for more people than presenting an already perfected version of the text. Do not be embarrassed by your abilities. No one here is perfect, and we are all at different stages of learning this language. Not even the "experts" really know it very well because Egyptian has not been handed down to us from generation to generation like Biblical Hebrew or Classical Greek and Latin. There are major gaps in everyone's knowledge. I have been studying Egyptian for many many years but I still make lots of mistakes. I think anyone who claimed not to would be exaggerating a wee bit. ;-) > So then, is there a Scribe who'd be willing to take me on as an > apprentice-transcriber for the length of 13 columns on Ay's West Wall? I am certainly willing to help, in whatever capacity with which you feel most comfortable, be that on list or off. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:47:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... Hi, everyone, I guess we covered the part I transliterated last time. Since this seems to be the only way to get things roling again, I will provide some more here: (Note, I have taken Pat's suggestion and replaced {<} with {'} so as not to cause problems in html anymore.) De Buck's Page 81, line 10: Dj.jn Hm=f jn-jw m3'.t pw p3-Dd jw=k rx.tj T3s tp Hsq.w Dd.jn Ddj tjw jw=j rx.kw jt.y 'nx.w wD3.w snb.w nb=j Dd.jn Hm=f jmmj jnj=tw n=j xnr nty m xnr.t wdj.w nkn=f Dd.jn Ddj n js n rmT jt.y 'nx.w wD3.w snb.w nb=j mk n wD=tw jrj.t mn.t jr.y n t3-'w.t Sps.y.t 'H'.n jnj.w n=f smn wD'.w tp=f 'H'.n rdj.w p3-smn r gb3 jmn.t.y n.y w3x.y DD=f r gb3 j3b.t.y n.y w3x.y 'H'.n Dd.n Ddj Page 82, line 1: Dd.w.t=f m Hk3 wn.jn p3-smn 'H' Hr Hbb DD=f m mjt.y.t xr m-xt spr=f w' r w' 'H'.n p3-smn 'H'.w Hr g3g3 'H'.n rdj.n=f jnj=tw n=f xt'3 jrj=tw r=f m mj.t.y.t 'H'.n rdj.n Hm=f jnj=tw n=f jH s-xr.w tp=f r t3 'H'.n Dd.n Ddj Dd.w.t=f m Hk3 'H'.n p3-jH 'H'.w Have fun! Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 20:35:08 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Baby Talk? I noticed in an drawing of an inscription in Parkinson's _Voices from Ancient Egypt_, p.81, an appartent example of "baby talk". A small child is begging a handout from a worker in the bakery/brewery and says "mk i Hqr=ki" (Look, I'm hungry!) where we would expect it to be written "mk wi Hqr=kwi" or "mk wi Hqr=kw". Two questions: 1. Is this actually a representation of "baby talk"? 2. Does anyone know of other examples? -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:07:14 +0000 Subject: AEL Mail delays My service provider seems to be having problems with the email service again. This is causing messages posted in the last 24 hours to be delayed. :-( These problems are outside of my control, but hopefully will be fixed soon. Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:17:54 -0700 Subject: AEL More Aten Comments From: n-ael@juno.com (Nancy2 R Tomasheski) FIrst off: Geoff, thank you for the translit. I have been working on Westcar during my lunch breaks at work, sitting among a pile of books and a swath of papers! Now, I have one more paper to add . . . Next, I am excited about getting into the Hymn to the Aten. I haven't translated it in probably ten years. It is an interesting piece. Being poetry, not prose, the language presents ample opportunities for discussion. This is going to be right up Marianne's alley! My copy of the Hymn is a photocopy (on which I have unfortunately not written the source). I cut off the top of "Ligne 3", which seems to be the beginning. Why no line 1 or 2? Furthermore, there are a few signs which are blurred; although this simulates working with a "real" text with "real" holes, it will be nice to have the holes filled in! I will be working from this copy until we get the heiroglyphs on the website. -Nancy R. Tomasheski n-ael@juno.com ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:32:11 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: "Charles E. Jones" Subject: AEL Directory of North American Egyptologists We are making a concerted effort to update and improve the Directory of North American Egyptologists [DNAE]. As you probably already know the DNAE is now published exclusively on-line under the auspices of the Research Archives of the Oriental Institute in Chicago, at http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/DEPT/RA/ABZU/EGDIR_INTRO.HTML , and under the editorship of the undersigned. On-line publication allows us to keep the directory up to date on a nearly daily basis. The DNAE includes trained individuals (including current doctoral students who have obtained candidacy for the Ph.D. degree in Egyptology) whose regular work involves the history, archaeology, language or culture of ancient (pre-Islamic) Egypt. The directory also lists a number of other scholars who, while not primarily trained in Egyptology, are engaged in research, administration, preservation, or other related work in this field. An appendix lists Egyptological dissertations currently in progress and those completed or made available in the past year. We would like to include as much useful information as possible as the DNAE develops. Toward this end, we will now begin to include Institutional addresses for University Departments, Museums, Libraries, Professional Societies, and other institutions with an interest in Egyptology. We will also include, if you choose to supply it, not only the office and home addresses, telephone numbers, and e-mail addresses, but also the URLs at which you can be reached and certain other information you may wish to include about yourself, such as areas of interest in Egyptology and educational background or status. [The published content of entries in the DNAE is subject to the approval of the editors]. In order to keep the directory current, we request that you examine your entry in the DNAE at: http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/DEPT/RA/ABZU/EGDIR_LIST.HTML and, using the forms accessible from the beginning of that page, send us the corrections, additions, supplementary information, and anything else you'd like to see in your entry. We would also be grateful if you would pass along a copy of this message to your department heads, colleagues, senior graduate students (please include the title of approved dissertation projects), and others actively engaged in Egyptology, and request that they also fill out the appropriate form and send it to us for inclusion. Those for whom access to e-mail and the World Wide Web is impossible should contact the editors directly. With thanks for your help, we are, Yours Sincerely, Richard H. Wilkinson Director, Egyptian Expedition The University of Arizona kemet@azstarnet.com Charles E. Jones Research Archivist - Bibliographer The Oriental Institute - Chicago cejo@midway.uchicago.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:52:12 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Baby Talk? Stephen Fryer wrote: > "mk i Hqr=ki" (Look, I'm hungry!) where we would expect it to be written > "mk wi Hqr=kwi" or "mk wi Hqr=kw". > > Two questions: > 1. Is this actually a representation of "baby talk"? > 2. Does anyone know of other examples? Stephen, I find this terribly interesting. I wish people would write more things like this on the AEL. Also, I think it would be no problem if some people worked on the Westcar and others on the Hymn to the Aten. We could discuss a bit of each one daily. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:55:15 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Baby Talk? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL Baby Talk? Stephen Fryer wrote: > "mk i Hqr=ki" (Look, I'm hungry!) where we would expect it to be written > "mk wi Hqr=kwi" or "mk wi Hqr=kw". This is a typical stative sentence form, with the subject introduced first and the verbal suffix agreeing with the subject. I believe that the writing kwi is one of those peculiar egyptian accumulatory words, where the pronunciation and spelling changed over time (.ki > .kw) and the hieroglyphic writing kept both i and w. So writing ki is understandable - if the w was not really there anyway. However, the i (reed-flower) after mk seems more problematic. Presumably it could be argued that the w was weak and it was dropped on this occasion, but I could just imagine a little kid simplifying the expression. Any other takers?? Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 07:33:29 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Baby Talk? Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > Stephen Fryer wrote: > > "mk i Hqr=ki" (Look, I'm hungry!) where we would expect it to be > written > > "mk wi Hqr=kwi" or "mk wi Hqr=kw". > This is a typical stative sentence form, with the subject introduced > first > and the verbal suffix agreeing with the subject. I believe that the > writing > kwi is one of those peculiar egyptian accumulatory words, where the > pronunciation and spelling changed over time (.ki > .kw) and the > hieroglyphic > writing kept both i and w. So writing ki is understandable - if the w > was not > really there anyway. > > However, the i (reed-flower) after mk seems more problematic. > Presumably it > could be argued that the w was weak and it was dropped on this > occasion, but I > could just imagine a little kid simplifying the expression. > > Any other takers?? As you say it is the spelling "mk i" for "mk wi" which is truly unusual - even Gardiner doesn't mention it as an alternate spelling. I probably wouldn't have thought the spelling "Hqr=ki" was odd (it is a rare but not unknown variant spelling, mentioned in both Gardiner and Hoch) if it wasn't in conjunction with the "mk i." The two spellings seemed to me to be somewhat parallel to each other, and in the context of the scene made me question whether we might have "baby talk" here. By the way, the inscription is early Dyn.XII, and since these are ordinary folk talking they are using a late form of Middle Egyptian (including pA = the). -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:03:39 +0000 Subject: AEL Westcar pages updated The latest update to the westcar material from Mike Dyall-Smith is now available on the AEL web page. There is now a transliteration, translation and commentary for pages 1, 2 & 3. The zipped version for offline viewing has not yet been updated. Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:08:31 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL Westcar pp. 81-... A start on translating Geoff's transcription. Come on lurkers, put in 2c! AEL Page 3, line 16, De Buck's Page 81, line 10: Dj.jn Hm=f "Then his majesty said:" jn-jw m3'.t pw p3-Dd What truth is there in the saying jw=k rx.tj T3s tp Hsq.w that you know how to rejoin a severed head Dd.jn Ddj Djedi replied: tjw jw=j rx.kw Yes! I know how jt.y 'nx.w wD3.w snb.w nb=j sovereign (l.p.h.), my lord. Dd.jn Hm=f His majesty said: jmmj jnj=tw n=j xnr nty m xnr.t Let a criminal who is in prison be brought to me wdj.w nkn=f and execute his sentence! [exciting isn't it...!!] Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== From: "Gisele" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:17:47 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... > Reply to: RE>AEL Westcar pp. 81-... > > A start on translating Geoff's transcription. Come on lurkers, put > in 2c! I guess you're talking to me :). I don't have De Buck's book and so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage but I noticed that the word translated to 'prison' on the Rosetta Stone (N14) was Hrt. Any thoughts on the similarities or differences in the meanings of the words 'Hrt' and 'xnr'? Gisele > > AEL Page 3, line 16, De Buck's Page 81, line 10: > > Dj.jn Hm=f > "Then his majesty said:" > jn-jw m3'.t pw p3-Dd > What truth is there in the saying > > jw=k rx.tj T3s tp Hsq.w > that you know how to rejoin a severed head > Dd.jn Ddj > Djedi replied: > tjw jw=j rx.kw > Yes! I know how > jt.y 'nx.w wD3.w snb.w nb=j > sovereign (l.p.h.), my lord. > Dd.jn Hm=f > His majesty said: > jmmj jnj=tw n=j xnr nty m xnr.t > Let a criminal who is in prison be brought to me > wdj.w nkn=f > and execute his sentence! > > [exciting isn't it...!!] > Mike Dyall-Smith > Melbourne > mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au > > ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:26:55 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar pp. 81-... I think you made a good translation ! a few comments though : > "Then his majesty said:" >jn-jw m3'.t pw p3-Dd > What truth is there in the saying strictly speaking, in-iw asks for a yes/no answer, so "Is it the truth, that saying ..." >jw=k rx.tj T3s tp Hsq.w >jmmj jnj=tw n=j xnr nty m xnr.t > Let a criminal who is in prison be brought to me >wdj.w nkn=f > and execute his sentence! A minor point : I would rather write : 'the criminal/prisoner who is in prison', because of nty. In theory, a relative introduced by nty is a determination of the antecedent ; it doesn't simply add a detail, but defines the antecedent and allows to differentiate it from the other member of its class : if I say 'I want the pen which is red' [ok, that's badly translated french], I differentiate this pen from the green one and the blue one; that's a determinative relative clause. Now, in "I took a pen, which was red, and wrote with it", the color of the pen is just there to give more detail about it, and could be supressed. With determinative relative clauses, the antecedent ends up being grammatically defined. In other cases, "virtual relative clauses" id est circumstancials phrases are used. * a criminal, who is in prison => xnr, iw=f m xnrt * the criminal who is in prison xnr nty m xnrt Other possibilities are : - the nisbe * xnr imy xnrt * a/the prisoner who is in prison it's quite close to the 'nty' relative because 'imy' and nisbe present the relation as being part of the nature of the antecedent. 'nTrw imyw dwAt' for example, are not simply gods who happen to pass through the duat right now; they are 'the gods who reside in the duat' or something like that. - plain adjunction of circumstance ** xnr m xnrt (BEWARE: bellow lie speculations) The whole bussiness seems to me to be related to the difference between : * nfr sw Adjectival sentence, which states a permanent quality and * mk sw nfr=w Adverbial sentence, stating a current quality (result of a process) So our adjectives (in english and french at least) would fell in two classes for the egyptian : permanent or definition (vs. something else) => adjective/nisbe/relative temporary, descriptive => adverbial construction of course, the two couples are not equivalent : the prisoner who is in prison might be released, in which case he won't be the prisoner who is in prison anymore. And things are not as clear-cut as that, because adjectives are used as epithet in all cases. If someone had comments about this ... regards ==============================================================================