Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 08:31:49 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Jumpstarting Anyone? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL Jumpstarting Anyone? I agree with Geoff, a bit of a lull at present, and I suspect it is because most students are off enjoying themselves during the semester break. I am not sure whether to wait until most are back at their campuses and have access to internet again?? Please, some comments by student lurkers!! WHEN TO START IN EARNEST AGAIN? Meanwhile, I have been developing a vocabulary for pages 1 and 2, to be part of the Westcar web pages. I hope to have this available to put up in the next week. It will allow people who cannot afford expensive dictionaries to participate. While constructing it I have noticed that it is extremely convenient and I wait for the day of the electronic Worterbuch (er, in english). Finally, in response to Geoff. I believe we have rampaged through page one of Westcar and are ready to attack line 1 of page 2.... Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== From: "YED" To: "AEgyptian-List" Cc: "Geoffroy Graham" Subject: AEL back to Westcar l.10 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:49:17 +0200 Graham wrote : >Hi, > >I am now settled in my summer residence, and have less pressure on me >than >I did before. I have noticed that the AEL seems to have all but died of >late. What happened to Papyrus Westcar I? I have to admit that I do not >remember where people were in that. I made a point of bringing my De >Buck >and other materials so that I could be of some help on list if anyone >wanted to continue working on the text. For the line 10, I found the same translation but after a come-back to my translation, I though of another possibily : translation of *Tnw by the interrogative where (he knows where [are] the secret chambers...) - but indirect speech is rare in Egyptian ; - papyrus roll and plural determinatives don't really exist for this sense : yet, in hieratic texts (according what I know) sometimes there is misuse of these determinatives. - more, with regard to the context, the king will be interested to see the chambers if he wants make a copy for his tomb (I think it's tomb not glory because there is no use of bird G25). Is my translation a feasabily or am I entirely wrong ? amicalement, Yves Dupont - Lyon Croix-Rousse - France ydupont@serveur.dtr.fr ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:33:28 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Back to Westcar To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Hello AEL friends, It would be a great deal of fun, in my opinion, to return to the Westcar Papyrus. It is a most interesting story--from the literary and cultural point of view--not to mention the language aspect. I have taught Egyptian literature off and on for a number of years. I have read the Westcar Papyrus, Shipwrecked Sailor, Sinuhe, etc., etc. in and out of class for years, yet I find each re-reading to be stimulating and always new problems--and new solutions--present themselves. There never has been a year when my beginning students have not raised interesting questions. And the questions to which I do NOT have a ready answer are the ones that spark class discussion on the highest level. The discussions on the AEL (and also off-list) have actually been quite interesting and challenging--even for someone who has spent much time on the texts. I need to download Mike Dyall-Smith's new version of the text--it sounds very useful for this type of group. And I must say, there are some individuals like Mike, Mark, Geoff, and others who have put in a lot of effort into this enterprise, and they really deserve thanks. For my part, I will continue to support the AEL to the best of my capabilities. Best wishes, James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:24:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Transliterations In case this will be of some help, I offer a bit of transliteration from De Buck's Page 80, beginning at the end of his line 1, which is the second half of the Papyrus's line VII, 13: Text: Notes: xr m-xt spr=f r Ddj From: "Hans van den Berg (CCER)" Subject: Re: AEL r. hannig's egyptian dictionary >Sollte nicht ein zweites Band gedruckt werden, mit den Belegstellen? Yes, but my sources in Hildesheim told me it may still take a while before it's ready. They're planning to put the whole in a database, anyway, so there's more to come from Hannig in the future. Hans van den Berg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Centre for Computer-aided Egyptological Research (CCER) Faculty of Theology Utrecht University Trans 2 Heidelberglaan 2 NL-3584 CS Utrecht The Netherlands Tel: +31-(0)30-2531982; Fax: +31-(0)30-2540413 e-mail: vdplas@cc.ruu.nl WWW: "http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:49:36 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL back to Westcar l.10 YED wrote: > > For the line 10, I found the same translation but after a come-back > to my > translation, I though of another possibily : translation of *Tnw by > the > interrogative where (he knows where [are] the secret chambers...) > - but indirect speech is rare in Egyptian ; > - papyrus roll and plural determinatives don't really exist for this > sense > : yet, in hieratic texts (according what I know) sometimes there is > misuse > of these determinatives. > Is my translation a feasabily or am I entirely wrong ? > Translating it Tnw as "where" would seem to be feasible grammatically, but as you noted, the determinative is wrong for this. For the meaning "where" it should have a "road" determinative, not the "scroll" determinative which it has. Now it is possible that at sometime a copyist made a mistake in the Hieratic (I'm not sure how likely this would be - it could happen either from similarity of written forms, or from a misunderstanding of the text being copied). You should notice that if this is a copying error, it is repeated later in the story. > - more, with regard to the context, the king will be interested to > see the > chambers if he wants make a copy for his tomb (I think it's tomb not > glory > because there is no use of bird G25). > The term Axt basically means the setting place of the sun ("horizon") and is written with an image of the sun between two hills. In this case there is added a "house" determinative, so it must refer to a building. I think most people would take this as referring to the tomb, although Miriam Lichtheim translated it as "temple," for reasons unknown to me. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:37:59 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL back to Westcar l.10 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL back to Westcar l.10 Yves Dupont wrote: (regarding line 10, page 1, Westcar) > I though of another possibily : translation of *Tnw by the > interrogative where (he knows where [are] the secret chambers...) Interesting point. I looked up section 503 of Gardiner and this interrogative (Where?, Whence?) is written the same way as in Westcar. My feeling is that if it was a true interrogative, then you should be able to start the sentence with it; "Where ...."; ie. it should dominate the meaning of the sentence. Coming after the first part of the sentence "He knows ....", I just can't see how _Tni_ can perform such a questioning function. It looks in a perfect position for a noun though; "He knows each/the number..." Can the interrogative _Tni_ be used as a noun ? ie. in the sense of "the whereabouts/approximate place or locality". In english this is true but I am not sure in Egyptian, I would have thought they would use _s.t_ (place). Any other (er, perhaps more linguistically rigorous) offers on this interesting question? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:55:59 -0500 From: Saida To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL pWestcar Redux This is the part of the Westcar that I translated last April. It came to my attention that people weren't pleased with it. I was not worshipping at the altar of Egyptian philology with the proper reverence, I guess. I took a different tack with the text--tried to update it--but my little whimsy went over like a lead balloon. All right, I wouldn't recommend my "experiment" to you, but, if anyone cares to, we can look again at the passage and see how the text was served (or not). Maybe it won't seem so strange after all. > > Said Prince Hardedef: "I say, your condition amounts to living proof > that one can put one over on old age." "jw" in this case can have the meaning of "it is". You can see Gardiner page 384 for a discussion of "iw". Anyway, it is sort of the same as "ist", a kind of emphatic that the sentence can really get along without. I put it as "I say", an emphatic in British usage. "jw xr.w.t=k mj 3s.t-mnj(w), 3s.t-qrs, 3s.t-zm3-t3, sDr r Ssp(3) Sw m x3.t(4), nn > kHkH.t n.y.t sry.t!" > "So (normally) it's (time) to kick off; it's wrap-up (time)--(time) to > head west--(but you probably) snooze until day-break without a care, >not (like an) old fossil (but) without (so much as a) moan." Well, I have to guess here what Geoff menas by "3s.t". I gather it's the glyph, the *throne*, which can have the meaning of "occasion". Generally, Hardedef is ticking off all the expectations of the aged: "mnjw"--death, "qrs"--depending on the det. the wrapping of the mummy, the funeral, etc., "zm3-t3" (the same as "zm3 n t3")--the transport of the body over the river to the tomb. "sDr r Ssp(3)" means to sleep until dawn. "Swj m X3t" is "lacking in disease"; "nn kHkH.t" is "not senility, old age, etc." and then there comes "n.y.t sry.t". "sry.t" can be any sort of disease, ill feeling, or expression of sickness like vomiting, retching, moaning and groaning or coughing. "n.y.t" is problematic. I assume it has the meaning of "without". > > "(j-)nD-xr.w.t, jm3x.y pw!" > > (My) regards to you, Guv'nor!" "jm3x.y" is a venerable person. The "pw" is a kind of expression that is hard to translate sometimes, but it is very often written "this". It comes after people's names, for no reason that is evident to us--such as in "Pepi pw" or "this Pepi", as it is often translated. I suspect it may be an attachment in some cases such as the English "your excellency" or "your honor" in addressing a person and may not really be translatable into English because one wouldn't actually say "O venerable one this". My "Guv'nor", I thought, was less formal than "excellency" or "O venerable one", but I wouldn't recommend it as a substitute, usually :-) Actually, "regards to you" may be a more literal translation of "j-)nD-xr.w.t" because sometimes the spelling contains the "Hr" or *face", which is to say "Greetings to your face", the same as "I am regarding you with salutations". "Regarding" is nothing more than "facing". The next few lines are pretty straightfoward--even in my translation. Someone else can discuss these, if they like. I'll just pass them by. > > "jj.n=j <3 r njs r=k m wpw.t n.y.t jt=j, xwfw, m3<-xrw(5)." > > I've come to fetch you on the order of my father, Khufu, bless you." > > "wnm=k Spss.w n(6) dd-n.y-sw.t, Df3.w n(6) wnm.w Sms.w.w=f." > "You shall eat up the goodies the king passes out as treats to those >who serve him." > > "zbj=f tw(7) m "(And) presently he'll make sure you join your ancestors in the > cemetery." > Dd.jn Ddj pn; "m Htp, m Htp" > Said this Djedi, "All right! All right, then! It seems to me that to just always translate "m Htp" as "in peace" or something like that is not thinking like an Egyptian. In this instance it would be wrong, IMHO. "Htp" has various implications and one would be wise to acquaint oneself with them all. My "all right" is perfect here. That is exactly what is being said. "Htp" here is "well" and the expression "m Htp" is how I think the Egyptians said "very well". One more thing: I think it is important for beginners to understand that there is seldom a sure-fire or "correct" English (or whatever) translation for the Egyptian language. These languages have such very different means of expression that we, accustomed to English idioms, can sometimes not even figure out what the Egyptians are trying to convey. Last night I was talking to a Brit of Hungarian descent, the author of a book "Under the Frog". When I asked him what that meant, he told me it was actually supposed to be "Under the Frog's Arse" but the publisher wouldn't go for it. To the Hungarians, this expression means "things have gone about as low or bad as they can get". Can you imagine us encountering such an expression in Egyptian--trying to do something with that frog's little butt? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 20:26:51 +0000 Subject: AEL Westcar text updated The update of the westcar text on the web page is now complete. I've included the latest update and corrections from Mike and Stephen - thanks guys! The hieroglyphs in page 2 of the vocab should now be working too. You can also download a zip file of the westcar material for offline viewing from http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/westcar/westcar.zip Regards, 1 -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:44:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL pWestcar Redux Hi, Marianne, Good job, as usual! > Said Prince Hardedef: "I say, your condition amounts to living proof > > that one can put one over on old age." Yes, this works. It is very free, but I understand your point about bringing it more to life. For those of you who want a more literal translation, let me offer the following. I am not attempting to thwart your creativity, which I think bespeaks a pretty good understanding of the text and a lot of umpf! ;-) Then Prince Hardedef said: "Your conditions are like life before* aging and elderliness... * Actually, I think tp-m should be a compound preposition. 3s.t-mnjw, 3s.t-qrs, 3s.t-zm3-t3, sDr r sSp, Swj m X3y.t, nn kHkH.t n.y.t sry.t!" > > "So (normally) it's (time) to kick off; it's wrap-up (time)--(time) to > > head west--(but you probably) snooze until day-break without a care, > >not (like an) old fossil (but) without (so much as a) moan." Maybe these noun phrases, mostly euphamisms for death, are all in aposition and still governed by the preposition. The mooring-place, the burial-place, the place of joining the earth, reclining toward the light, free of illness, without the hacking of a cough. (j-)nD-xr.w.t, jm3x.y pw! > > (My) regards to you, Guv'nor!" Greetings, O venerable one! In this case, the pw is for the vocative. jj.n=j <3 r njs r=k m wpw.t n.y.t jt=j, xwfw, m3<-xrw. I've come to fetch you on the order of my father, Khufu, bless you." It is on a mission of my father, Khufu, the justified, that I have come here to summon you. The use of the sDm.n=f for a verb of motion should be a clue to the emphasizing nature of the verb. What form would we have expected to have seen if this were a regular past tense? Any takers? wnm=k Spss.w n dd-n.y-sw.t, Df3.w n wnm.w Sms.w.w=f. > > "You shall eat up the goodies the king passes out as treats to those > >who serve him." You shall eat the delicacies of the royal largesse, the provisions of the foods of his followers. zbj=f Tw m > "(And) presently he'll make sure you join your ancestors in the > > cemetery." He shall usher you into the good standing of your ancestors, and the foods of the necropolis." > > Dd.jn Ddj pn; "m Htp, m Htp" > > Said this Djedi, "All right! All right, then! Then this Djedi said: "welcome, welcome!" Thank you, Marianne. This was a very interesting translation. I have just added some more literal meanings so that others will be able to follow how you got to your freer version. Keep up the good work, and never feel unwelcome to make a post, please! Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:00:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL back to Westcar l.10 Hi, Michael, > My feeling is that if it was a true interrogative, then you should be able > to start the sentence with it; "Where ...."; ie. it should dominate the > meaning of the sentence. Actually, in Egyptian, most interrogatives come at the ends of sentences. Just a quick observation. Yorus, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:52:07 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL pWestcar Redux Saida wrote: > > This is the part of the Westcar that I translated last April. It came > to my attention that people weren't pleased with it. I was not > worshipping at the altar of Egyptian philology with the proper > reverence, I guess. > > > > > Said Prince Hardedef: "I say, your condition amounts to living proof > > that one can put one over on old age." > I believe a reasonable free interpretation of what Prince Herudedef is saying is: "Now (iw) your (present) circumstances (xr.w.t=k) are an example (mi) that an exemplary life ( > > 3s.t-mnj(w), 3s.t-qrs, 3s.t-zm3-t3, sDr r Ssp(3) Sw m x3.t(4), nn > > kHkH.t n.y.t sry.t!" > > "So (normally) it's (time) to kick off; it's wrap-up (time)--(time) to > > head west--(but you probably) snooze until day-break without a care, > >not (like an) old fossil (but) without (so much as a) moan." SO THAT "at the time of (near) death and (...) burial and (...) re-uniting with the earth, (you) can sleep until dawn free of affliction (x3.t), without the hacking(s) (kHkH.t) of a cough (sry.t). > > > "(j-)nD-xr.w.t, jm3x.y pw!" > > > > (My) regards to you, Guv'nor!" > "I compliment (you) on (your) circumstances, O (pw is here a vocative) revered one! > > > "jj.n=j <3 r njs r=k m wpw.t n.y.t jt=j, xwfw, m3<-xrw(5)." > > > > I've come to fetch you on the order of my father, Khufu, bless you." "The purpose of my having come here (<3) is to summon you as (I being) an emissary of my father, Khufu the Virtuous (true of voice)". > > > "wnm=k Spss.w n(6) dd-n.y-sw.t, Df3.w n(6) wnm.w Sms.w.w=f." > > "You shall eat up the goodies the king passes out as treats to those > >who serve him." "You may eat what is always reserved (singled out - Spss) by the usual granting (dd - habitual = "usual") of the king and provided to the diners, (to) those who are serving (following) him". > > > "zbj=f tw(7) m > > "(And) presently he'll make sure you join your ancestors in the > > cemetery." > "He will let you pass the time as a series of pleasant (nfr) interludes ( > Dd.jn Ddj pn; "m Htp, m Htp" > > Said this Djedi, "All right! All right, then! "What this Djedi said (then was): '(I) am pleased! (I) am pleased!'" > Although it might be difficult to absolutely justify some of the constructions grammatically, it seems to make a little sense this way, or ????? Pat -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:59:33 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL back to Westcar l.10 Stephen Fryer wrote: > > YED wrote: > > > > For the line 10, I found the same translation but after a come-back > > to my > > translation, I though of another possibily : translation of *Tnw by > > the > > interrogative where (he knows where [are] the secret chambers...) > > - but indirect speech is rare in Egyptian ; > > - papyrus roll and plural determinatives don't really exist for this > > sense > > : yet, in hieratic texts (according what I know) sometimes there is > > misuse > > of these determinatives. > > Is my translation a feasabily or am I entirely wrong ? S. Fryer: > > Translating it Tnw as "where" would seem to be feasible grammatically, > but as you noted, the determinative is wrong for this. For the meaning > "where" it should have a "road" determinative, not the "scroll" > determinative which it has. Now it is possible that at sometime a > copyist made a mistake in the Hieratic (I'm not sure how likely this > would be - it could happen either from similarity of written forms, or > from a misunderstanding of the text being copied). You should notice > that if this is a copying error, it is repeated later in the story. If you look under "tn, tni" (not Tn) you will find that the concept of "where are they" is spelled variously. The *book roll* for an abstract thing is right there half the time and the road, too. Then there is "tnnw" or "whence" which is spelled exactly as in the Westcar. I don't think all this refers to an interrogative exclusively, although it surely could have been, just as in our "where". The three strokes often follow abstracts ending in "w" whether they are plural or not. My guess would have been that this time the Westcar is talking about "tnnu (t)" or "amount" or "how many"- but the problem here is the three strokes, though. When the concept is "tnnu" or "where", the strokes are lined up lll, but, when it's "amount", they are like : one atop the other. So I guess, from the strokes, it must be "he knows where are". Marianne Luban Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:43:29 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL pWestcar Redux Hi, Geoff--you wrote: > 3s.t-mnjw, 3s.t-qrs, 3s.t-zm3-t3, sDr r sSp, Swj m X3y.t, nn > kHkH.t n.y.t sry.t!" > > > > "So (normally) it's (time) to kick off; it's wrap-up (time)--(time) to > > > head west--(but you probably) snooze until day-break without a care, > > >not (like an) old fossil (but) without (so much as a) moan." > Maybe these noun phrases, mostly euphamisms for death, are all in > aposition and still governed by the preposition. > > The mooring-place, the burial-place, the place of joining the earth, > reclining toward the light, free of illness, without the hacking of a > cough. Maybe, but I don't think it fits as well, in this case, as *3s.t* having the meaning of "occasion" (it does in my dictionary) or "it's the time". Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:56:25 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Khufu the Justified? I wrote: > jj.n=j <3 r njs r=k m wpw.t n.y.t jt=j, xwfw, m3<-xrw. > > I've come to fetch you on the order of my father, Khufu, bless you." Geoff Graham: > It is on a mission of my father, Khufu, the justified, that I have come > here to summon you. Pat Ryan: >"The purpose of my having come here (<3) is to summon you as (I being) >an emissary of my father, Khufu the Virtuous (true of voice)". I had already shut down the computer and started doing my housework, thinking about this text. Suddenly it struck me--have the boys killed off the king? I did this Westcar passage so long ago that I forgot why I put "m3<-xrw" as "bless you". Maybe I'll remember how I "justified" this, but I suppose I didn't want to call Khufu "True of Voice", in other words, making him an Osiris when Djedi has to go and talk to him!! Just now I checked to see how Lichtheim deals with this. She doesn't. She just ignores the "m3<-xrw" completely like it wasn't even there. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:15:17 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL back to Westcar l.1 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL back to Westcar l.10 Stephen Fryer wrote: >Translating it Tnw as "where" would seem to be feasible grammatically, Are there examples of its use in the same syntactic position as found in Westcar? If you wanted to say something similar, eg: "He knows where to find the secret chambers." What would be the usual construction? Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:19:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Tnw Hi, Marianne, > If you look under "tn, tni" (not Tn) you will find that the concept of > "where are they" is spelled variously. The *book roll* for an abstract > thing is right there half the time and the road, too. Which dictionary are you using. I only have Faulkner with me right now and he does not list this the way you are describing it. However, I really do not think the determinatives are a real problem. On papyri (hence in hieratic) Egyptians were extremely sloppy about determinatives. They constantly conflate the spellings of similar sounding words. In essence, I do not think there is any reason to have qualms about either interepretation of the word. I have to say I rather prefer the "where" interpretation because it does not seem to me, in what I know about Egyptian thought so far, that the Egyptians would have been so concerned with the NUMBER of chambers as where they were. If you look at later stories, such as those about Setne Khaiemwaset (in Demotic) you will find the protagonist searching for the location of the book of Thoth. The motif is really kind of similar if you ask me. I always have felt a bit uncomfortable with this business about the "number" of chambers. It just doesn't quite feel right. Then there is > "tnnw" or "whence" which is spelled exactly as in the Westcar. I don't > think all this refers to an interrogative exclusively, although it > surely could have been, just as in our "where". The three strokes often > follow abstracts ending in "w" whether they are plural or not. My guess > would have been that this time the Westcar is talking about "tnnu (t)" > or "amount" or "how many"- but the problem here is the three strokes, > though. When the concept is "tnnu" or "where", the strokes are lined up > lll, but, when it's "amount", they are like : one atop the other. So I > guess, from the strokes, it must be "he knows where are". The horizontal and vertical plural strokes are actually interchangeable. In hieratic, there is a tendency to write them horizontally, but in hieroglyphic this only happens through the influence of hieratic, and almost never in a monumnetal inscription. So, the only difference indicated by horizontal or vertical strokes is the style of handwriting, and nothing to do with meaning. Yours, Geoff sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:37:27 +0000 Subject: AEL Hieroglyph drill Phil Barker has written a Hypercard Stac Hieroglyph drilling program. According to Phil, it requires a MAC (not Powermac) and Hypercard or Hypercard Reader. This can be obtained from www.info.apple.com. Look for "software update" and then under "utilities" for the "Hypercard Player 2.3.5.sea". The Hieroglyph program itself is available from http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/fcards.zip Now the thing is, I have no means to test this program, or to know if the files have been transferred correctly. So if anyone is able to download Phil's FlashCard program and run it, please let us know!! Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:09:55 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Re: Khufu the Justified? A miracle has occurred and I am finally able to access the Westcar website without getting an Error message! It looks very nice, too, I must say. Now that I see all the glyphs, I notice that Khufu is "m3<-xrw" or "justified" throughout, although, as I said before, not all translations reflect this. Naturally, he cannot be dead in the story, so here's the explanation for those of you who don't know too much about the pWestcar. Now "Khufu and the Magicians" is part of a cycle of tales told at the court of Khufu by his sons. The name of the first son is missing together with most of that story. The second son, Khafre, later became king and is known as the builder of the Second Pyramid at Giza. The third son, Baufre, is known from other sources and a later text indicates that he may also have become king for a short time. The fourth son, Hardedef, is known as one of the sages of the past and part of his instruction has survived. "Khufu and the Magicians" is part of a single manuscript from which the beginning and conclusion are missing. The pWestcar was inscribed in the Hyksos period before Dynasty 18, but the composition appears to belong to Dynasty 12. In other words, it is a copy. Khufu was part of the 4th Dynasty. By the 12th Dynasty he was ancient history and that is why he is always referred to with the respectful "m3<-xrw", as befits a royal personage, even though he is very much alive in the tale. Jews still do this today when speaking of the dead, even with ordinary persons: "Did you know Milton (alev hasholem)?" Marianne Luban ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Hi, I'm New From: nrbt@juno.com (Nancy R. Tomasheski) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:33:40 EDT My name is Nancy Tomasheski, and I recently joined the list after running across it while surfing the Egyptology resources on the 'net. I began studying Hieroglyphic language at the age of 6 (I will be 33 in Aug). I am by no means fluent, but at least I have the intuitive pathways formed by learning a second language at an early age. I intended to pursue the language as a career, but was sidetracked halfway through college by a lifelong but unaddressed love of hard science. I recently completed training and licensure in Clinical Laboratory Science -- my chosen career -- and now have time to return to the pursuit of study of the Hieroglyphic language. My skills are probably a little rusty (I have done yearly reviews to maintain a certain level of proficiency, but no advancement work for quite a few years now. My last real work was for a research paper in Parasitology, when I retranslated portions of the Ebers -- fascinating!), and I am eager to remove the layers of dust on that portion of my brain. I want to add my voice (I'm an alto, by the way) to the recent flurry of posts about getting "back" to the pWestcar. I joined the list hoping for just that type of thing. I really am not interested in nine postings a day in about how the list _doesn't_ do anything . . . I'd much rather we _do_ something. The stuff I received today (10 June) is moving in that direction, and I am grateful. I downloaded the text from the web site onto disk, but my system crashes whenever I try to access it. I think this is a problem with the program (Image 10) rather than the downloaded material. I probably have a copy of at least the portion of pWestcar being discussed lying around somewhere anyway; I'll try to find it. I would also be interested in hearing any personal experiences with self-study of Demotic. -N. addendum: I wrote this yesterday, but typed in "rosatu" instead of "rostau" in the address, so got it back today. The postings received today are of just the type I hoped to find on this list, and I am quite pleased. Regarding my concerns with my download (I downloaded as image rather than as file); I will try the zip file, since I do not seem to have a copy of pWestcar lying around as I had hoped! -N. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:10:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hi, I'm New Hi, Nancy, It is nice that you are joining us. I hope you will be able to participate and gain something from our discussions. Welcome. You might want to type in your email address at the ends of your postings so that people can respond to you privately. The list subtracts them from the headers. > I would also be interested in hearing any personal experiences > with self-study of Demotic. Write to me, and I will try to help you as much as I can. Yours, Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 18:25:11 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Back-tracking? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Did we cover lines VII, 14-15? Even if so, do we perhaps still need a re-cap? There are a couple of interesting things here. Did the form wAH ever get identified? What form is gmi.n.f and why is THIS form used here? Some of you know--as you have mentioned it in previous posts--and for those who are beginning, please be patient, as this is a more advanced point. In fact, the verb gmi is almost exclusively used in this form and in this construction. All the best! James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:57:17 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL back to Westcar l.1 Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > Reply to: RE>>AEL back to Westcar l.10 > > Stephen Fryer wrote: > > >Translating it Tnw as "where" would seem to be feasible grammatically, > > Are there examples of its use in the same syntactic position as found in > Westcar? If you wanted to say something similar, eg: "He knows where to find > the secret chambers." What would be the usual construction? Maybe it doesn't exist. Supposedly, this "tn" or "Tn" as "where" is a form for an interrogative, although the "tn" or "Tn" part is not always at the end of the sentence as I think someone suggested before. Since nobody seems to indicate an attestation of an abstract "where" as in "I know where to find it", probably the Egyptians didn't say it that way. They may have said "I know the place in which it is to be found"--something like that. In the line that puzzles us all, maybe we should take a different approach. Since "tnnw" or "Tnw" also has the meaning of "magnify" or "elevate" or "distinguish" (sometimes even with the *road* determinative) I am beginning to wonder if this isn't all about knowing the "dimensions" (height, bigness) of something rather than the whereabouts because there doesn't seem to be a place for an interrogative in this line. I feel that it must be because the "Tnw" words, in general, have to do with counting, computation, calculations, weight, quantity, so to put "dimensions" in with this doesn't seem too far-fetched. The thing that bothers me is those three strokes. If it were something like " he knows the dimensions of the secret chambers , etc.", the three strokes would perhaps be one over the other like the other computation words. However, maybe not. What do you think? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:41:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Khufu the Justified? Hi, Marianne, > > jj.n=j <3 r njs r=k m wpw.t n.y.t jt=j, xwfw, m3<-xrw. > I had already shut down the computer and started doing my housework, > thinking about this text. Suddenly it struck me--have the boys killed > off the king? I did this Westcar passage so long ago that I forgot why > I put "m3<-xrw" as "bless you". Maybe I'll remember how I "justified" > this, but I suppose I didn't want to call Khufu "True of Voice", in > other words, making him an Osiris when Djedi has to go and talk to him!! > Just now I checked to see how Lichtheim deals with this. She doesn't. > She just ignores the "m3<-xrw" completely like it wasn't even there. Yes, she ignores it for good reason. Obviously, as you have noted, the epithet implies that Khufu is already in his afterlife, which, of course, in the time-frame of the story, simply was not possible. The scribe who copied this story (or who wrote it) probably felt that it might be bad luck not to put the customary epithet after the name of a powerful spirit who could potentially be offended from the beyond. As for just what m3<-xrw means, there has been much discussion of this topic. The problem is how to render it in English. The meaning is clear enough to the Egyptian religion. When a dead soul enters the hall of judgment in the next life, he has to be judged against those with whom he had disputes during his life. In these disputes, one person is always declared the winner and the other is by default the loser. The xrw "voice" in this epithet actually does not refer to the voice of the deceased, but rather to the voice of the court and its assessors. This is why "true of voice", while literal in translation, gives a mistaken impression. When the voice declares that the deceased is m3< "righteous/true/orderly", it is saying that he is "just/justified/vindicated/the winner of the case". So, when one is m3<-xrw one is the triumphant disputant in the final judgment, which was not only between the soul of an individual and the forces of the beyond, but between the soul and every other soul with which he had been in conflict previously. Talk about karma???!!! Indeed, this system could potentially exert far-reaching social control, because it was in one's interest to clear up all problems with people before one died, otherwise, there might be serious danger to one's survival in eternity! It was not just some god sitting down there in the underworld waiting to judge you, but all of your neighbors, family members, enemies, and anyone whos life you had touched might very likely stand in that hall contesting against you if you had made them angry enough to do so, and of course, you would have the same opportunities to fight it out with those who had wronged you whenever one of them came to the judgment hall too. Of course, the Egyptians tried all kinds of magic in order to get around the various wrongs they had committed in life, such as the heart scarab with its spell to make one's heart not testify against one, however, let us not be fooled. I think most Egyptians knew that in the end they would be thrown back on the mercy of the truth of their lives. The second Khaiemwaset tale gives us a glimpse of this. True, it has been noted that certain elements of the Hellenistic netherword have entered into this tale's version of the visit to Amente, but I think the underlying theme is far more Egyptian than it is Greek. The episode to which I am referring is when Seosiris takes Khaiemwaset to the judgment hall through his magic powers and they witness how all the grave goods of the rich man were handed over to the penniless poor man because of the outcome in the judgment hall. Not only is the poor man rewarded with all that finery and sent off to have a lovely afterlife, but the rich man is sentenced to have one of the doors of the netherworld turn in the socket of his eye! A gruesome image, but quite effective as a tale that was probably intended to encourage people to do right by their fellow human beings. What a red herring! Anyway, it certainly is interesting that these intrusive m3<-xrw's pepper this story at most of the mentions of the kings who were already deceased at the time of the tale's writing. The papyrus seems to date to the end of the Middle Kingdom or the Second Intermediate Period based on the orthography and state of the language. It is pretty late for Middle Egyptian as some of you may have noticed. There is a great tendency for more colloquial Late Egyptian-like (but technically not entirely Late Egyptian) expressions to seep into the text. Furthermore, what we would expect to come after Khufu, were this written during his reign, like the setting of the story itself, would be To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL back to Westcar l.1 Hi, Mike, > >Translating it Tnw as "where" would seem to be feasible grammatically, > > Are there examples of its use in the same syntactic position as found in > Westcar? If you wanted to say something similar, eg: "He knows where to find > the secret chambers." What would be the usual construction? Well, this is problematic. We just don't have enough texts of this kind to find that information. This could be the only example, for instance. What we need is someone who has read the better part of the corpus of Egyptian literary texts, to say whether they have ever seen the word used this way or not. Unfortunately, though I have read a great deal of Egyptian, I simply do not remember any instances which would call for a phrase of similar meaning. However, I would certainly not be surprised if the word could be used in such a context with this menaing, because grammatical categories in Egyptian are relatively fluid. An interrogative word like Tnw could conceivably be used in a non-neterrogative context as a kind of specifyer of the "where" of something. I am not sure how else Egyptian could express such an idea. I suppose it could use a word like 3s.t or bw meaning "place" but I am not sure whether either of those would quite get at the meaning about which we are talking. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 18:14:36 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL tnw To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I share Geoff's unhappiness with tnw "number", however, I have serious doubts about the possibility of using tnw "where" in this position and with this grammatical function. Mike (wasn't it?) was right about needing a noun at this point. Mike's idea to use st "place" is the phrase that would be expected: iw.f rx(w) st ntt X im He knows the place where X is. (Egyptian uses the pattern: "the place that X is there." James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:28:41 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Khufu the Justified? Graham wrote: > > Hi, Marianne, > > > > jj.n=j <3 r njs r=k m wpw.t n.y.t jt=j, xwfw, m3<-xrw. > > > I had already shut down the computer and started doing my housework, > > thinking about this text. > Yes, she ignores it for good reason. Dear Geoff: I am afraid I cannot agree that ignoring something written in a document you are attempting to translate can ever have a good reason. Obviously, as you have noted, the > epithet implies that Khufu is already in his afterlife, which, of course, > in the time-frame of the story, simply was not possible. > As for just what m3<-xrw means, there has been much discussion of this > topic. The problem is how to render it in English. The meaning is clear > enough to the Egyptian religion. > > When a dead soul enters the hall of judgment in the next life, he has to > be judged against those with whom he had disputes during his life. In > these disputes, one person is always declared the winner and the other is > by default the loser. The xrw "voice" in this epithet actually does not > refer to the voice of the deceased, but rather to the voice of the court > and its assessors. In view of the fact that xrw IS used for "so they say" according to Faulkner, this is a possible interpretation --- a little clumsy, though, to say: Khufu --- true, so they say (referring, of course, to the assessors) This is why "true of voice", while literal in > translation, gives a mistaken impression. I do not understand why it cannot be the simple common construction we already saw in Sw kHkH.t, "free of hacking (coughs)". It is certainly a more natural expression: Khufu the Virtuous (always truthful). Since we know relatively little about Khufu, can we say with certainty that he had no epithet like this, a practice so common among royalty of all ages and climes? > > When the voice declares that the deceased is m3< "righteous/true/orderly", > it is saying that he is "just/justified/vindicated/the winner of the > case". Since the deceased has previously denied all kinds of moral turpitude, would a judgment be based on his truthfulness. Having been truthful, he could be "justified". The judgment (he spoke true) MUST come before the result ("justification"). I think we are mixing literal meaning and interpretation. > What a red herring! Anyway, it certainly is interesting that these > intrusive m3<-xrw's pepper this story at most of the mentions of the > kings who were already deceased at the time of the tale's writing. Do we know of another tale in which a living king is described later as m3<-xrw by an overzealous scribe in a speech by a contemporary? Pat -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:51:01 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Tnw I wrote: > I am beginning to wonder if this isn't all >about knowing the "dimensions" (height, bigness) of something rather >than the whereabouts because there doesn't seem to be a place for an >interrogative in this line. I feel that it must be because the "Tn, >Tni Tnw" words, in general, have to do with counting, computation, >calculations, weight, quantity, (or separating, singling out, as in >"distinguish") so to put "dimensions" in with this >doesn't seem too >far-fetched. I have found something further along in the pWestcar text that, I think, supports my suspicion that "Tnw" in relation to the "secret chambers of the sanctuary (?) of Thoth has the meaning of "dimensions" or "plans" (as I explained in a previous post). I jump ahead here because we should try to understand this a little better before we encounter it again. "Then King Khufu, the vindicated, said: "Now as for the rumor that you know the "Tnw" of the secret chambers of the sanctuary(?) of Thoth...' Djedi said, 'By your favor, I do not know their "Tnw", sovereign my lord, but I do know the place where they are.' His Majesty said 'Where are they?' Can somebody look ahead, find the glyphs and make a transliteration of what I just wrote because I don't have time right now? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:48:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Khufu the Justified? Hi, Pat, > Could only Osiris be "truthful"? No, the epithet m3<-xrw really has nothing to do with being "truthful". It indicates what the voice of the judges of the dead say about the individual at his judgment in the next world. It really does not mean "true of voice", at least not the way that sounds in English. It means something more like "vindicated". Geoff sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:58:21 -0700 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: AEL Saida's original For those of you who missed or lost the original message with the translation, I thought I'd forward it to the list. A number of comments in the introduction to the translation, and comments on each line, are (I think) quite interesting and should be given some thought. For instance, exactly how would a son of Khufu have regarded an old priest/magician, and how would he have addressed him? As an alternative, he might have been terrified of such a powerful magician, and perhaps a little confused to find him lying in the shade having his bald head and feet rubbed. > >I have enjoyed reading the Westcar in the original for the first time. >I like it very much because it is naturalistic and even whimsical--like >a proper fairy tale. The language is very interesting when compared to >the translation of Miriam Lichtheim, which is pretty much no-nonsense >and rather Gothic in Grimm Brothers fashion. How different, how >oriental in its phrases like "It's your condition like live above on >higher state old age!" is the original Egyptian. > >Waxing poetic, I could have translated this as "Your condition is that >of one who transcends old age", but I thought--wait--this is a royal >prince coming upon one of Egypt's relics, lying on the ground, having >his feet rubbed. He would probably address him no differently than, >say, the Prince of Wales, visiting an old soldiers' home, would a >veteran of the Battle of Britain--respectful but perhaps a bit >patronizing in the bright, jocular way that younger men speak to their >sprightly elders. > >And so, the gorgeously-dressed king's son, Hardedef, deigns to descend >on one knee and, with a twinkle in his eye, sizes up the Aged Wonder he >has heard so much about: > >> >> >Said Prince Hardedef: "I say, your condition amounts to living proof >that one can put one over on old age." > >> 3s.t-mnj(w), 3s.t-qrs, 3s.t-zm3-t3, sDr r Ssp(3) Sw m x3.t(4), nn kHkH.t >> n.y.t sry.t!" > >"So (normally) it's (time) to kick off; it's wrap-up (time)--(time) to >head west--(but you probably) snooze until day-break without a care, not >(like an) old fossil (but) without (so much as a) moan." >> >> "(j-)nD-xr.w.t, jm3x.y pw!" > >(My) regards to you, Guv'nor!" > >> >> "jj.n=j <3 r njs r=k m wpw.t n.y.t jt=j, xwfw, m3<-xrw(5)." > >I've come to fetch you on the order of my father, Khufu, bless you." > >> >> "wnm=k Spss.w n(6) dd-n.y-sw.t, Df3.w n(6) wnm.w Sms.w.w=f." > >"You shall eat up the goodies the king passes out as treats to those who >serve him." (with a wink) >> >> "zbj=f tw(7) m >"(And) presently he'll make sure you join your ancestors in the >cemetery." > >And so, the old man, Djedi, replies with a chuckle (or a cackle): > >> >> Dd.jn Ddj pn; "m Htp, m Htp" > >"All right! All right, then! (etc) > >Marianne Luban > > Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:24:12 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar text updated Patrick C. Ryan wrote: > The Westcar comes as a .HTM, and Paint Shop Pro (my version, at least) > refuses to load them---------"unknown format".... > The hieroglyphic text is an image displayed by the HTML file, and isn't actually part of the HTML file.You need to save the image out of the HTML page. Not being sure what software and system you are using, it is a little difficult to be sure how you should do this. For Netscape and (if I remember right) Internet Explorer on a PC click the right mouse button on the image and select "Save Image As..." (I presume you're using a PC, but on a Mac you could try Command-click and see if that works.) The save dialog box should give you the name of the file, you just have to decide where to save it. Then it should be openable with PSP. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:37:29 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL : Hieroglyph drill To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Hello! Professor Barker kindly sent me copies of his Hypercard files (attached via e-mail). I had no trouble decompressing them on my Mac SE/30. Since I bought this machine used, I am not sure what all unstuffing software is on it. I do understand that other Mac users have had some trouble in downloading the files. This vocabulary drill seems very useful to me. I have a penchant for my Japanese-style mini-flip-cards-on-a-ring--useful on public transit, etc., but learning basic vocabulary is a significant task facing beginners, and any method possible helps out. I will recommend this programme to my department in Toronto, and will ask that it be put on our university's multi-media computers. Like my good old cards, it does the trick (which is what really counts) in a straightforward, "no nonsense" fashion. Since it is based on my book, which I know intimately, I may, however, recommend that in future files some vocabulary NOT be included (some words are included ONLY because they occur in a given lesson). So far, this should not be a problem! Best wishes, James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:36:13 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re: Khufu the Justified? Saida wrote: > > A miracle has occurred and I am finally able to access the Westcar > website without getting an Error message! It looks very nice, too, I > must say. Now that I see all the glyphs, I notice that Khufu is > "m3<-xrw" or "justified" throughout, although, as I said before, not > all translations reflect this. > By the 12th Dynasty he was > ancient history and that is why he is always referred to with the > respectful "m3<-xrw", as befits a royal personage, even though he is > very much alive in the tale. Jews still do this today when speaking > of the dead, even with ordinary persons: "Did you know Milton (alev > hasholem)?" Actually I rather liked the way you originally translated it "bless you" except for the quibble that it should have been "bless him." Actually in England it isn't that uncommon (at least among the old-fashioned) to hear any mention of the Queen immediately followed by "God bless Her" - very similar. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:07:37 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL pWestcar Redux Graham wrote: > j3w.t, > > Then Prince Hardedef said: "Your conditions are like life before* > aging > and elderliness... > > * Actually, I think tp-m should be a compound preposition. I agree that this is probably a compound preposition "before." I keep feeling that xr should be introducing a contrasting section, so that xr iAwt would be something like "but with old age..." > > 3s.t-mnjw, 3s.t-qrs, 3s.t-zm3-t3, sDr r sSp, Swj m X3y.t, nn > kHkH.t n.y.t sry.t!" > > > > "So (normally) it's (time) to kick off; it's wrap-up > (time)--(time) to > > > head west--(but you probably) snooze until day-break without a > care, > > >not (like an) old fossil (but) without (so much as a) moan." > > Maybe these noun phrases, mostly euphamisms for death, are all in > aposition and still governed by the preposition. I rather like Marianne's idea of the meaning here, since it goes with my feeling about "xr iAwt" - this would definitely have these euphemisms in apposition with each other. I love that phrase kHkH.t n.t sryt "the hacking of a cough" - such a wonderful imitation of a cough! > zbj=f Tw m > > > "(And) presently he'll make sure you join your ancestors in the > > > cemetery." > > He shall usher you into the good standing of your ancestors, and the > foods of the necropolis." Actually, if you check the spelling m aHaw nfr is "in (after) a good period of time." While the Egyptians tended to wish a good burial on each other they tended to stick in a phrase like this to ward off any suggestion that the old fellow should push off for the West forthwith. > > > > Dd.jn Ddj pn; "m Htp, m Htp" > > > > Said this Djedi, "All right! All right, then! > > Then this Djedi said: "welcome, welcome!" It seems that the Egyptians used mHtp in much the same way that Hebrew uses Salom and Arabic uses salam. In this case I would guess it was a short form of ii.ti m Htp "welcome in peace" so Geoff's "Welcome! Welcome!" is probably the proper meaning, though Marianne's version leaves open some delightfully amusing interpretations (unfortunately probably not intended by the original storyteller). The use of pn here is probably not simply this, but more in the way of an honorific - how about "Djedi-san"? -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:29:02 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Back-tracking? James Hoch wrote: > > Did we cover lines VII, 14-15? Actually they seem to have been passed over. Everybody in a hurry to get to the interesting stuff - the conversation between Hardedef and Djedi. That being the case, I'll see what I can do with it. xr-m-xt spr=f n Dd(y) Now after he reached Djedi aHa.n wAH(.w) pA qniw the carrying chair was put down > Did the form wAH ever get identified? Past tense passive in a "aHa.n sDm(.w)=f" passive construction. aHa pw ir.n=f r wSd=f He stood up to speak to him (the =f is the OBJECT of the infinitive wSd) gm.n.f sw sDr(.w) Hr tmAm m sS n ?=f having found him lying in the threshold of his (house?) Hm Xr tp=f Hr amam n=f ky Hr sin rd(.wy)=fy with a servant at his head rubbing him with oil, and another massaging his feet. (amam is given as "smear" in Faulkner, "anoint" in Hoch - basically he was having his bald head polished) (rd.wy.fy is a dual form, and could be "his legs" rather than "his feet") -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:04:06 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL pWestcar Redux Stephen Fryer wrote: > > > > Dd.jn Ddj pn; "m Htp, m Htp" > > > > > > Said this Djedi, "All right! All right, then! > > > > Then this Djedi said: "welcome, welcome!" > > It seems that the Egyptians used mHtp in much the same way that Hebrew > uses Salom and Arabic uses salam. I wonder about this. Actually, "shalom" and "salam" only mean "peace". The song says "shalom", for example, means "hello and goodbye" but that's not really so. When people say "shalom"--they are just saying "peace." The Egyptians adopted this "shalom" into their language, But I don't know if they ever used it as a greeting. > In this case I would guess it was a > short form of ii.ti m Htp "welcome in peace" so Geoff's "Welcome! > Welcome!" is probably the proper meaning, though Marianne's version > leaves open some delightfully amusing interpretations (unfortunately > probably not intended by the original storyteller). More to the point of all this is the Hebrew for "okay" or "all right", which is "b'seder". The "b" part of the term means "in, at, with, by"--much as the Egyptian "m". The "seder" part means "order, in place, regularity". In other words, things are in order. However, Near Eastern peoples don't seem to say "welcome" in this fashion. For instance, the Hebrew "welcome" is "baruch habah" or "blessed is the coming". It makes more sense to me that Djedi would be saying "in peace" than "welcome", but I feel that "m Htp" as "with pleasure" or "in contentment" corresponding to our "very well". To understand "well", one must know that it comes from the German "wohl", whose overall meaning is peace, comfort and contentment like the Egyptian "Htp". Marianne Luban > The use of pn here is probably not simply this, but more in the way of > an honorific - how about "Djedi-san"? > > -- > Stephen Fryer > Lund Computer Services > > ************************************************** > The more answers I find, the more questions I have > ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Brigitte Ouellet" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Khufu the Justified? Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:28:58 -0400 ---------- : De : Graham : A : Ancient Egyptian Language List : Objet : Re: AEL Khufu the Justified? : Date: 12 juin, 1997 01:48 : : Hi, Pat, : : > Could only Osiris be "truthful"? : : No, the epithet m3<-xrw really has nothing to do with being "truthful". : It indicates what the voice of the judges of the dead say about the : individual at his judgment in the next world. It really does not mean : "true of voice", at least not the way that sounds in English. It means : something more like "vindicated". : : Geoff : sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu Hi everyone, Well, like usual I'm very busy, but who's not? Many thank to Geoff for the hard work and nice files on Westcar. Since I can't for the next 8months really get in to it, I will follow from afar and may jump in once in a while... :) I have followed the discussion regarding M3<-xrw. I read a long time ago an article by Anthes "the Original Meaning of M3<-xrw", JNES 13 (1954): 21-51 but there must be something more recent is'nt it? Anyhow, it confirm what has been said on the last comments. Brigitte Ouellet Faculte de theologie / Rel. Studies Universite de Montreal ouellebr@microtec.net ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:47:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Suredesign@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Word Question I'm working on something right now and have become stuck on a single word/phrase. I am looking for a word which means "surrender/give up". I have already checked Gardiner, Budge, Faulkner, and Shennum for an answer (the only sources I have at hand) with no luck. Anyone have an answer? Thanks in advance. Al Berens suredesign@aol.com ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:26:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Khufu the Justified? Hi, Pat, > I am afraid I cannot agree that ignoring something written in a document > you are attempting to translate can ever have a good reason. Well, yes, you are right, but the reasons are understandable in that the phrase does not fit the story very well from the modern reader's point of view. Of course, she should have noted that it was there, and put a footnote explaining it or something. I was not trying to say that she translated it the way I would have. > In view of the fact that xrw IS used for "so they say" according to > Faulkner, this is a possible interpretation --- a little clumsy, though, > to say: > Khufu --- true, so they say (referring, of course, to the assessors) Not bad, really. It kind of works. Yes, Pat, this is a great observation, and it approaches the right meaning of xrw in this context, I would guess! maybe it could be "so-called-righteous" or something like that. > I do not understand why it cannot be the simple common construction we > already saw in Sw kHkH.t, "free of hacking (coughs)". It IS the same kind of construction. They are both participial forms in a direct genitive. X of Y. "Free of Hacking" "m3< of xrw" But, please, not "true of voice"... it is just too inaccurate because while it represents it word for word (with certain translations of those words, and not necessarily the best ones), it just gives the wrong impression in English. M3< does not really mean "true" as in English. It has that meaning as part of its connotations, but it is also "real", "right", "correct", "orderly", "just"... and oh so many other concepts. There just is no English word which can quite cover it. Similarly xrw is not only "voice". It is "sound", "verdict", "thus said ____", etc... If we have to make it into a genitival phrase to translate it with a one for one relationship of words, then I suggest "righteous of verdict". > It is certainly a more natural expression: Khufu the Virtuous (always > truthful). But I really do't think it is referring to that. > Since we know relatively little about Khufu, can we say with certainty > that he had no epithet like this, a practice so common among royalty of > all ages and climes? The fact is that this epithet is very well attested all throughout Egyptian history as coming after the name of any deceased person. I think Marianne and Stephen are probably right to just see it as something like "bless his soul". It is nothing but a tag that comes at the end of certain names, just like "may he live forever" after the name of a living king. Clearly this is also the reason Lichtheim chose to leave it out, though I don't necessarily agree with her for doing so. > Since the deceased has previously denied all kinds of moral turpitude, > would a judgment be based on his truthfulness. Having been truthful, he > could be "justified". Well, I suppose it is technically possible, but there have been various articles written on this whole subject in which people ahve examined in depth precisely what the xrw is. I am not near my library right now and do not know where to find you a reference, but I suspect that if you can find J.G. Griffiths' book on Osiris, the exact title of which presently escapes me, you will probably find some discussion of it in there. He may also have a footnote which will lead you to the original article which questioned the traditional translation of this phrase. > The judgment (he spoke true) MUST come before the result > ("justification"). I think we are mixing literal meaning and > interpretation. You are continuing to assume that that xrw refers to the deceased. It is not at all clear that that is the case. The issue is not about the xrw of the deceased, but the xrw of those who judge him. > Do we know of another tale in which a living king is described later as > m3<-xrw by an overzealous scribe in a speech by a contemporary? Hmmmmm, I can't think of one right off hand, but it certainly would not surprise me. These kinds of scribal traditions happen all over Egyptian literature. I do not have many texts here with me that I can examine this summer, but surely there is someone out there who does. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:40:43 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: "M. A. R. Barker" Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph drill Cc: Michael_Dyall-Smith@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au Dear Mark, I found the link for the flashcards easily. Some may find it difficult to download. If you have "StuffitDeluxe," you can "unzip" the files: open Stuffit, click once on the "unzip" heading in the "Translator" menu, then click on the file you want unzipped, It unzips the file and asks where you want to put it. Now comes the *new* part. In order to open and read an unzipped document or graphic -- such as Mike Dyall-Smith's "Westcar" -- you just go over to Netscape (or whatever net-navigator you're using) and drop the file directly onto the icon. You can also open Netscape, click "Open file in browser" and then find the file you want in the menu boxes. Just clicking on this opens it. With the flashcard programme, you *must* have Hypercard or the "Hypercard player 2.3.5.sea." This last is available free from www.info.apple.com, software updates, US/macintosh/utilities. You download this, and then when you open it, you will see an "Open Stack" command in the File menu. Click on this and then find the file you want to open in the menus that follow. (I assume everybody who is this far along can use pop-up menus, etc.?) Click "open," and you get the flashcards. There is a "basic" programme, then "Hoch 2-3," "Hoch 4-5." and "Hoch-6-7." There is a "Read Me" of instructions. You only need the "basic" programme if you yourself want to produce a flashcard file. Follow the guidelines in the "Read Me" for instructions. I'm happy to answer any questions, if I can. Mark, you can cut out any of this letter that seems redundant, but the List should know of the Hypercard link and how to use it. Regards, Phil ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:13:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Back-tracking? Hi, Stephen, Thanks for the translation. It is good, but there a few minor points that need addressing. > xr-m-xt spr=f n Dd(y) > Now after he reached Djedi Your translation implies that we have a subordinate clause, which I don't think we do. First change your n to r. Then xr means "now/moreover", m-xt means "afterwards" I would translate it: "now afterwards (after some time) he reached Djedi." You need a full-stop after this. It cannot be a subordinate circumstantial clause because what follows is the beginning of a new idea, which is not the main sentence. aHa.n wAH(.w) pA qniw > the carrying chair was put down > > Did the form wAH ever get identified? > Past tense passive in a "aHa.n sDm(.w)=f" passive construction. Fine, except that this is not a continuation of the previous idea. Then the litter was put down. > aHa pw ir.n=f r wSd=f > He stood up to speak to him (the =f is the OBJECT of the infinitive wSd) Excellent job! Literally we see "It was a standing up which he did in order to address him." which of course is not good English. > gm.n.f sw sDr(.w) Hr tmAm m sS n ?=f > having found him lying in the threshold of his (house?) Your problem is only transliteration here. gmj.n=f sw sDr.w Hr Tm3 m sS n.y sb3=f (mine is hyper-corrected!) when he found him lying upon a mat in the threshold of his door. The word for door is written with the picture of a door. It is read sb3. > Hm Xr tp=f Hr amam n=f ky Hr sin rd(.wy)=fy > with a servant at his head rubbing him with oil, and another massaging > his feet. > (amam is given as "smear" in Faulkner, "anoint" in Hoch - basically he > was having his bald head polished) > (rd.wy.fy is a dual form, and could be "his legs" rather than "his > feet") Good job. You clearly have got it. Yours, Geoff sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:38:10 -0800 From: Julie Smith To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Flashcards I was wondering if the flashcards will become available to the PC users out there? They sound very useful. Julie Smith Ketchikan, Alaska ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:33:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Progress in Westcar Hi, I see no one has taken any interest in answering the grammatical question I posed. Well, just for the record... as for the line that says: jj.n=j <3 r njs r=k m wpw.t n.y.t jt=j xwfw m3<-xrw if it were a regular past tense we would expect the form to be mk wj jj.kw or something similar thereto. To make the past tense of a verb of motion one used the stative and NOT the sDm.n=f. When the sDm.n=f occurs it is an emphasizing construction which lays all emphasis on the last prepositional phrase in the sentence. This is why I translated it "it is on a mission of my father, khufu, the justified, that I have to come to summon you". sDm=f's can have four different forms: indicative, circumstantial, subjunctive/prospective, and emphasizing/nominal. sDm.n=f's only have two possible forms: circumstantial and emphasizing/nominal. This example was an emphasizing/nominal one. Anyone feel like moving on to what Djedi has to say after "m Htp m Htp"? There are some strnge parts coming up, so don't feel embarrassed if you are having trouble. Marianne, I will eventually transliterate that part you were translating, but it does not come for a few more pages, and we will get to it eventually. I think you could well be right about your measurement idea. So save that thought, and we can discuss it freshly when we come to the second reiteration of the phrase. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:22:15 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Re: AEL Word Question Cc: suredesign@aol.com (Al Berens) At 10:47 AM 6/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >I'm working on something right now and have become stuck on a single >word/phrase. I am looking for a word which means "surrender/give up". I have >already checked Gardiner, Budge, Faulkner, and Shennum for an answer (the >only sources I have at hand) with no luck. > >Anyone have an answer? Thanks in advance. > >Al Berens >suredesign@aol.com The closest words I can find for the moment: dSds = tStS ("to give ground, yield or give way...") with Z9 and D54 as determinatives (Budge) The implication is to "move away from"... Faulkner also shows: tSi' (same determinatives) to "desist (from action)" as well as tSw (male det) for "deserter" Other words may apply, but these seem to be on point. Regards -- Katherine ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:00:35 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Marc Line Subject: Re: AEL Word Question In article <970612104734_1343273646@emout13.mail.aol.com>, Suredesign@aol.com typed: >I'm working on something right now and have become stuck on a single >word/phrase. I am looking for a word which means "surrender/give up". I have >already checked Gardiner, Budge, Faulkner, and Shennum for an answer (the >only sources I have at hand) with no luck. > >Anyone have an answer? Thanks in advance. > >Al Berens >suredesign@aol.com Hello Al Best I know of are the words smn or xti or Hm which Faulkner gives as meaning retire/withdraw/retreat. Alternatively, Hdb (overthrow/be prostrate) or bT as transitive (abandon/forsake) Perhaps the sense is not sufficiently passive for your purposes. Just a thought - couldn't you use something around smdt (subjects/subordinates) like "became he/she/they subordinates", or maybe something around siTn n (subordinate to)? Regards Marc Line marc@bosagate.demon.co.uk ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:22:57 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Word Question Dear Al: There does not seem to be an exact Egyptian equivalent for capitulation but, in these contexts, two words are used frequently: bT, flee, run away; and Xz, become weak, of flagging intentions. Hope this helps. Pat Suredesign@aol.com wrote: > I'm working on something right now and have become stuck on a single > word/phrase. I am looking for a word which means "surrender/give up". > I have > already checked Gardiner, Budge, Faulkner, and Shennum for an answer > (the > only sources I have at hand) with no luck. > > Anyone have an answer? Thanks in advance. > > Al Berens > suredesign@aol.com -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:15:45 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Back-tracking? Graham wrote: > > > xr-m-xt spr=f n Dd(y) > > Now after he reached Djedi > > Your translation implies that we have a subordinate clause, which I > don't > think we do. First change your n to r. Sorry - my fingers are sometimes less than perfect in the middle of the night! It should have been an r. > Excellent job! Literally we see "It was a standing up which he did in > order to address him." which of course is not good English. Except among Egyptologists of a linguistic bent! Although it does have a rather Gaelic ring to it. (By the way modern Gaelic - as opposed to earlier Celtic- has evolved a grammatical structure remarkably reminiscent of Middle Egyptian. And NO I DON'T THINK THIS IS DUE TO DIFFUSION OR ANY OTHER RELATIONSHIP OTHER THAN BEING HUMAN LANGUAGES WITH A COMMON ANCESTOR AT SOMETIME IN THE PAST. But it is interesting and curious nonetheless.) > > gm.n.f sw sDr(.w) Hr tmAm m sS n ?=f > > having found him lying in the threshold of his (house?) > > Your problem is only transliteration here. Sorry - my fingers must have got too friendly with the m key! > > gmj.n=f sw sDr.w Hr Tm3 m sS n.y sb3=f (mine is hyper-corrected!) > > when he found him lying upon a mat in the threshold of his door. > > The word for door is written with the picture of a door. It is read > sb3. Sorry, but I don't see a door there - only a hatched area representing damaged papyrus. DeBuck shows a partial sign of some kind, but I wasn't about to try to guess. The "house" sign is of course just a determinative for some part of his house. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:48:45 -0500 From: george kinzfogl To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Ancient Eqyptian for Dummies? Hello, I tried to access the Westcar site, but my server can't seem to reach it. . . Does anyone have an alternate site, or a site that teaches Ancient Eqyptian, this mailing list is a bit advanced for me. . . ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:42:51 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Back-tracking? Graham wrote: > > > aHa pw ir.n=f r wSd=f > > He stood up to speak to him (the =f is the OBJECT of the infinitive > wSd) > > Excellent job! Literally we see "It was a standing up which he did in > > order to address him." which of course is not good English. > How about: "What he did was to stand up before addressing him". > > gm.n.f sw sDr(.w) Hr tmAm m sS n ?=f > > having found him lying in the threshold of his (house?) > Pat -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 15:13:12 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Ancient Eqyptian for Dummies? On 12 Jun 97 at 23:48, george kinzfogl wrote: > Hello, I tried to access the Westcar site, but my server can't seem to > reach it. . . Does anyone have an alternate site, or a site that > teaches Ancient Eqyptian, this mailing list is a bit advanced for me. Hi George, as far as I know, this list is the only one dealing specifically with Ancient Egyptian. Please don't be put off by the more advanced discussions that you sometimes see on the list. Beginners are very welcome to contribute, or ask questions on the list too. A couple of web sites that include introductory lessons in Egyptian hieroglyphs are: http://khety.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/EgyptienE.html http://www.netvision.be/egyptologica/e_home.htm Best Wishes, Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:09:08 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Back-tracking? Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Excellent job! Literally we see "It was a standing up which he did in > > order to address him." which of course is not good English. > > Except among Egyptologists of a linguistic bent! Although it does have > a rather Gaelic ring to it. (By the way modern Gaelic - as opposed to > earlier Celtic- has evolved a grammatical structure remarkably > reminiscent of Middle Egyptian. And NO I DON'T THINK THIS IS DUE TO > DIFFUSION OR ANY OTHER RELATIONSHIP OTHER THAN BEING HUMAN LANGUAGES > WITH A COMMON ANCESTOR AT SOMETIME IN THE PAST. But it is interesting > and curious nonetheless.) Yup. People wonder why the Egyptian "father", "iti" is spelled "itf". Yet I have heard the Irish refer to Dad as "Himself". Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:15:16 -0500 From: Saida To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Tnw It seems I have found someone who appears to agree with me about "Tnw" referring to dimensions or plans. This is in a book called "The Literature of Ancient Egypt" edited by William Simpson with translation by O. Faulkner, E. Wente, Jr. and Simpson, himself. I found it in Barnes and Noble. It says: "The sense of the arrangement or number the secret chambers is entirely unclear. Possibly they were the architectural plan for a part of the pyramid complex of Cheops, as suggested by the text." I don't know who wrote this as it doesn't say who translated the text. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:46:54 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Re: Westcar Back-tracking? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Stephen has done a great job on these lines. A few comments... First, I would not be so hasty to dismiss Stephen's original translation of the xr m-xt as "Now after he reached Djedi...", this use does seem to occur. We had a similar occurrence in lines 16-17 (of the web site copy): xr m-xt nA n(y) aHaw mni(w) r mryt, SAs pw ir.n.f m Hrty... which I would take to be: "Now, after the ships had been docked to shore, he proceeded overland..." rather than "Now later, the ships were docked to shore. He proceeded overland..." This sounds like a subordinate clause in translation, and Geoff's interepretation as a full clause may be strictly speaking correct--but very often the relationship between the xr m-xt clause and the following main clause seem to be very closely linked. Let's keep an eye out for more examples as we go, and maybe we can come up with some better answers. Second, Stephen's identification of wAH(w) as the "sDm(w).f passive" (the past-tense PASSIVE circumstantial form) is absolutely correct. Let's keep track of how many of these forms actually occur. In the aHa.n construction, one expects first and foremost to find a (circumstantial) sDm.n.f form to follow. When you encounter a form without an n (i.e. what looks like a sDm.f form)--try it as a sDm(w).f passive. Also, look for the subject--does it work better as a passive or as an active verb form? Third, Stephen took gmi.n.f sw sDr(.w) Hr tmA m sS n ?=f as a circumstantial clause (a modifying clause: "having found him" as opposed to a main clause "He found him..."). I cannot fault this interpretation, but there is another option (and years of experience convince me that the verb gmi "to find" is used almost exclusively in a single construction). Any ideas? The word with a house determinative is uncertain. It is not necessarily to be read sbA, and I do not know what the best reconstruction would be. These lines, though seemingly less interesting, help the story along--and provide some interesting grist for the grammar mill. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:07:25 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Westcar: Why I have come To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Geoff's interpretation of jj.n=j <3 r njs r=k m wpw.t n.y.t jt=j xwfw m3<-xrw as "it is on a mission of my father, khufu, the justified, that I have to come to summon you" is right on. This is a fairly advanced level point of grammar, so you who are just getting the basics, don't worry! Here, the speaker wants to say WHY he has come, and not THAT he has arrived (a bit obvious, eh?). The reason why he has come is contained in the (adverbial) phrase r nis r.k "in order to summon you". As Geoff points out, this is a prepositional phrase (prep. r + infinitive), and as such it is adverbial. The point the speaker is making in this type of construction is always adverbial (why, where, how, in what condition, when, etc. etc.). Geoff said: sDm=f's can have four different forms: indicative, circumstantial, subjunctive/prospective, and emphasizing/nominal. sDm.n=f's only have two possible forms: circumstantial and emphasizing/nominal. This example was an emphasizing/nominal one. A note of caution on terminology. "Indicative", in Egyptological jargon, does not designate a verb form with the characteristics and uses that most of us would imagine. I have opted for calling it the "Old Indicative", since it is a relic from Old Egyptian, and is used only in certain negations. The equivalent of the indicative statement (statement of fact) is in Egyptian built around the iw sDm.f (which uses the CIRCUMSTANTIAL verb forms) or the iw.f m pr (sentence with adverbial predicate) construction and its various modifications/substitutions. James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:10:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Back-tracking? Hi, Pat, Thanks for the suggestion. > > > aHa pw ir.n=f r wSd=f > > > He stood up to speak to him (the =f is the OBJECT of the infinitive > > wSd) > > > > Excellent job! Literally we see "It was a standing up which he did in > > > > order to address him." which of course is not good English. > > > > How about: "What he did was to stand up before addressing him". You know, I really like that, Pat. Good thinking! Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:20:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Tnw Hi, Marianne, > It seems I have found someone who appears to agree with me about "Tnw" > referring to dimensions or plans. This is in a book called "The > Literature of Ancient Egypt" edited by William Simpson with translation > by O. Faulkner, E. Wente, Jr. and Simpson, himself. I found it in > Barnes and Noble. It says: > > "The sense of the arrangement or number the secret chambers is entirely > unclear. Possibly they were the architectural plan for a part of the > pyramid complex of Cheops, as suggested by the text." > > I don't know who wrote this as it doesn't say who translated the text. That should be William Kelly Simpson, I believe. I think Kelly did most of the early stuff while Wente did the Late Egyptian parts. I am not sure which parts Faulkner did. It must say somepleace in the book. I think his translations are often the best. Lichtheim is great, because she makes things flow nicely in English, but sometimes she has to stray a bit far from the Egyptian to do that. Professor Simpson has always been very good at translating Egyptian literature so that it stays close to the original but still sounds like good English and interesting reading. I have had the good fortune to work with him for the past two years now here at Yale. I am glad to see that people are still purchasing his book and finding it useful. It is really pretty hard to out-date if you ask me. Had I had the book with me, I probably would have checked his translation, but at the moment I have no translations to consult at all, since all my books are back in New Haven. Anyway, Marianne, you could hardly be backed by better sources! Good reasoning! ;-) Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:04:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL What Djedi Said Hi, Since no one seems to want to start translating what Djedi said, I figured I would put in a translation of my own, and see if we can get some discussion going here. Dd.jn Ddj pn Then this Djedi said; "Djedi-san" is good but not really English. I'd be open to suggestions for something that really is an English expression, but so far I have not thought of anything. m Htp m Htp Hrw-dd=f z3-n.y-sw.t mr.y n.y jt=f "Welcome, welcome, Hardedef, (O) prince, beloved of his father! I still stand by "welcome" because I believe it is simply the omission of "jj.tj" in "jj.tj m Htp". Hzj Tw jt=k xwfw m3<-xrw May your father Khufu the justified favor you! s-xnt=f 3s.t=k m j3w.w May he promote your position with the elders! Snj.t k3=k jx.w.t r xft.y=k May your Ka enchant things against your enemy! I do not have any good explanation for the {t} on Snj.t. Does anyone else? I thought about it being a sDm.tw=f passsive, but doesn't jx.w.t have to be the object here? rx b3=k w3.w.t Subject: Re: AEL Westcar: Why I have come James Hoch typed: >Geoff's interpretation of jj.n=j <3 r njs r=k m wpw.t n.y.t jt=j xwfw m3<-xrw >as "it is on a mission of my father, khufu, the justified, that I have to come >to summon you" is right on. This is a fairly advanced level point of >grammar, so you who are just getting the basics, don't worry! Hello James I resolved it to be: "I have come here in order to summon you at the behest of my father, Khufu, the justified." That seems to fit the order of words very closely whilst still conveying the same sense as Geoff's interpretation. Is that equally valid as a translation and if not, why not? Why is it necessary to reverse the two parts of the sentence? (I see that /m/ is not normally reckoned to have the meaning of "at" but there are times when it seems to be leaning towards it in the English 'causative agency' sense of something proceeding *from* something else, as here. If this is a misapprehension I would appreciate correction lest it become ingrained.) My best regards Marc Line marc@bosagate.demon.co.uk ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:04:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Suredesign@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Word Question Thanks, your suggestion will work in the context I'm working with. Geoff Graham suggested that the word for "bow to" might also be an idiomatic phrase for the same thing, but he is away from Urkunden like I am. Al Berens ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 23:10:22 UT From: "Judith Prueitt" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL Ancient Eqyptian for Dummies? this mailing list is a bit advanced for me. . . Hang in there many of us feel that way. I've got a few www, that I've been collecting. Like every other BBS, Chat group, chainletter you name it a few vocal energetic people carry on the daily so-thats-so sorta' stuff. and the rest of us wait until we feel safe getting a word in edgewise. without feeling foolish. Or live our lives until we get the bug to start a thread. But don't give up. NEVER let the appearance of ANYbodys education or vocabulary intimidate you. Please this took me many years to figure out. Life got a whole lot easier then. I'd kinda like to know your on the other end when I have an idea i'd like to banter about. peace judith ---------- From: Ancient Egyptian Language List on behalf of george kinzfogl Sent: Thursday, June 12, 1997 11:48 PM To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Ancient Eqyptian for Dummies? Hello, I tried to access the Westcar site, but my server can't seem to reach it. . . Does anyone have an alternate site, or a site that teaches Ancient Eqyptian, this mailing list is a bit advanced for me. . . ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:40:56 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Hardedef's speech I'm having difficulty with the first part of Hardedef's speech to Djedi. I agree with the general outline of what Marianne did in her translation, which parallels Miriam Lichtheim's translation. However, when I get to the details of how it all works.... I have rearranged the hieroglyphic text to reflect what I see as the structure of the passage, and am attaching it to this message as a GIF file (8.86 K) for those of you who can see such things. A parallel transliteration and translation (of sorts) with comments and questions follows. aHa.n Dd.n nsw sA Hrw-ddf "Then Prince Hardedef said" [No problem there] iw xrt=k mi anx tp-m tni "Your condition is like one living before old age." [mi could be "as though" I'm not sure what form of anx is used here - it could be a plain noun, "life" or it might be a participle "one living"] xr iAwt st mniy st qrs st smA-tA "Now old age is the (proper) place of mooring the (proper) place of the coffin the (proper) place of joining the land." [Here I'm treating xr as a non-enclitic particle, rather than the preposition "near," introducing a new sentence in contrast with the previous one. The three euphemisms for dying are pretty obviously a case of parallelism. I have perhaps been over-literal in translating st as "place" - Faulkner gives it as being a sort of prefix for creating abstract nouns (like bw?)] sDr r Ssp Sw m xA(y)t nn kHkHt nt sryt "One sleeping to daylight without disease and no sound of a cough." [I am not sure what form sDr is here - I'm taking it as a participle in parallel with anx in the first line of the speech. If it is, that sort of makes the whole section between into sort of a parenthetical statement, sort of stuck in the middle of another sentence: "Your condition is like one living before age, sleeping till...." I couldn't find kHkHt in Faulkner, but it is such a lovely coughing sound!] To sum up the serious problems: 1.) What is the form of anx? 2.) What is the usage of xr (so far I haven't found a similar use in my references)? 3.) What is the form of sDr and is it parallel with anx? -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:30:19 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Westcar: in order to address him To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Geoff recently sent us something that I guess is probably from off list discussion: (Pat) > How about: "What he did was to stand up before addressing him". (Geoff) You know, I really like that, Pat. Good thinking! The problem with this is that there is a good Egyptian construction that means "before (DOING XYZ)", and this is not it. There are also prepositions that could be used to indicate prior action, but not the preposition r. Preposition r + infinitive as a means of indicating PURPOSE--"in order to (DO XYZ)"--is NORMAL. Geoff's original interpretation and translation (not necessarily his word-for-word rendering, which is also correct, but not good English--heh, heh) were on the right track. James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:34:27 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Back-tracking? >>>>> "Saida" == Saida writes: Saida> Stephen Fryer wrote: Saida> Yup. People wonder why the Egyptian "father", "iti" is Saida> spelled "itf". Yet I have heard the Irish refer to Dad as Saida> "Himself". Saida> Marianne Luban One of the possible explanation is that the 'f' in itf is not to be read 'f' at all, but has an old phonetic value of 'it'. In this case, it would be virtually a variant of the crocodile sign in ity (sovereign), which would mean 'little father' (rings a russian bell;-)) A possible example in a passage from the Eloquent Peasant about a town called 'per fefy' in translations, and otherwise unkown ; in fact, this town might be simply 'per ity'. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 5, rue Beranger 92240 Malakoff tel 01 48 70 37 13 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 20:45:35 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Westcar: Finding Djedi To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk gmi.n.f sw sDr Hr tmA Was it Stephen who took gmi.n.f as a circumstantial form? No other ideas?? Now, someone also transliterated tmA as tmAm and then apologized--but that IS what the text actually has. The second m is an Egyptian writing convention to indicate that the A of the historical writing was no longer to be pronounced (i.e. older form was tmA; later form was tm). The repetition of the m essentially means: stop reading at "m". Normally, in such a case, we just transliterate: tmA. What is the form of sDr? What is the word that it refers to, and how does it function grammatically in the sentence. (It has a BIG, BIG role.) This ties into my first bit of probing. Jumping back a line, we had Hardedef arrive in his palanquin, which was then set down. He arises to address Djedi. This brings us back to some things that Marianne brought up some time ago. How did a royal address a powerful eminence? It seems to me that getting out of the palanquin and standing up was probably a sign of respect. (Would have been rather rude talking to Djedi just sitting in a deposed palanquin--but also maybe it would not be decorous to be just sitting in a grounded palanquin in any situation??!!) The dialogue between them is a bit tricky--both use rather genteel language. But we still have a few loose ends in FINDING DJEDI. Best wishes, James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 21:10:25 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Westcar: Your Condition is like To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk iw xrt.k mi anx tp-m tni The translations have been pretty good. (That is a high compliment from me!) Whatever anx is, it has been correctly taken as a noun or nominal form: "life" or "living." Here is another suggestion: why not take it as a participle "one who lives." This would be the imperfect active participle. Lichtheim also takes it this way. She correctly fixes the English to something like "Your condition is like (that of) one who lives before old age." (although she has "who lives above age," whatever that means...) xr iAwt st-mni The particle xr may introduce a new sentence: "Now, ..." or perhaps here it is more subordinate "for old age is mooring" ("mooring" being a metaphor for dying). The sentence structure was questioned earlier and as no one has jumped in, perhaps I can explain what I think. It seems to be the simplest nominal construction: what I call the "AB Nominal Sentence." In this construction element A is placed up against element B without any other connecting words. This construction is rather restricted in its use, but it looks like that's what we've got here. It means "A is B." Note that st-mni, st-qrs, and st-smA-tA are all abstract nouns formed with st. Similar compounds are formed with bw. Most of these words do not have any direct connection with "place" or spacial location, but often they refer to conditions. Many of these are not to be found in the dictionaries, but are fairly easy to figure out. James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:08:10 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re: Westcar Back-tracking? James Hoch wrote: > Third, Stephen took gmi.n.f sw sDr(.w) Hr tmA m sS n ?=f as a > circumstantial > clause (a modifying clause: "having found him" as opposed to a main > clause "He > found him..."). I cannot fault this interpretation, but there is > another > option (and years of experience convince me that the verb gmi "to > find" is > used almost exclusively in a single construction). Any ideas? Actually, I suppose that gm.n=f must be a second tense form, whaich would make this what you refer to as an explicatory sentence. gm.n=f sw sDr(=w) Hr tmAm m sS n ?=f .... He found him lying on a mat in the entrance of his ? .... or, with different emphasis It was lying on a mat in the entrance of his ? ... that he found him. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:56:12 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Back-tracking? Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Graham wrote: > > > > gm.n.f sw sDr(.w) Hr tmAm m sS n ?=f > > > having found him lying in the threshold of his (house?) > > > > Your problem is only transliteration here. > > Sorry - my fingers must have got too friendly with the m key! On second thoughts, there actually is another m in there in the hieroglyphic transcription tmAm. Of course, somewhere in there someone put in the wrong determinative too - deBuck has Aa19 instead of the correct V19. I did manage to leave out "on a mat" when I was typing the translation though! Errare humanum'st! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ==============================================================================