Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 01:28:40 -0600 (CST) From: "Jerome S. Colburn" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Aten Hymn Col.VIII On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Jenny Carrington wrote: > Sm.w Hr rd.wy nty m axi Hr pAy m dnH.w=sn > who walk on two feet, and that rise up flying with their wings. > > **axi - with the sky determinative - to raise up. (Faulkner) But raising isn't the same as rising; and I'd expect a .t if this were an infinitive, or no m if this were a stative. > **ns.w - I don't think that it is an ear with the tongue. It looks like the > flesh determinative that is a part of 'ns'. It isn't all that clear in > Davies and it is facing the wrong direction for an ear. oh -- you are right! ********************************** * Jerome Colburn * jscolbur@prairienet.org * im nfr mdw pn m bAH mryw mdw-nTr ********************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 02:17:35 -0600 (CST) From: "Jerome S. Colburn" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Aton Hymn Col IX My translation (which I made in a hurry after seeing that you'd posted yours) was close to yours. I have only a few comments: On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Aayko Eyma wrote: > What to do with that > lonely s after stny? I've taken it as an error for a scroll. Yes, that's what Davies' drawing shows. > I had some problem with 30b, i.e. to give it sense in this context. > r-Aw(=f) "all, entire" (Faulkner). So must we resume =sn in our case? Not necessarily. I take the parentheses in Faulkner to mean that the suffix pronoun is optional. For what it's worth, there's a 17th Dynasty king named nb-iry-r-Aw. > HWB20 wrd m "sich abmuehen mit", so likely refering to the next line? > That is: the sun rises and sets for his children, like a father slaves for > his offspring?? Taken as active partciple, like the verbs in next lines. Yes, and putting it into English thus: "according as you make them for yourself, their lord entirely, the one who becomes tired for them", using "the one who" to remind us that the participle is a noun. Likewise, wbn n=sn "the one who rises for them". > > 31c) xAs.w.t nb(.w.t). wA(.w).t jr=k anx=sn > 32a) di.n=k Hapy m p.t *hAy=f n=sn > "All far-away foreign lands, you make their life, I took wA.t as the noun "way", with anticipatory emphasis: "All foreign lands, you have made a way that they may live" (prospective). > (For) you have given a Nile in the sky, it descends to them." > > IMO there's no other option for A-h-y than *hAy, seeing the legs > and the context. Yes, the bird and the reeds are side by side in the Davies drawing, and the h that would ordinarily fit above them is pressed down between. I read hAy=f as prospective: "that it may descend for them." > Like Aton has made the Nile for Egypt (thought to come forth from > below, perhaps via 'springs' at Elephantine; well, not there, but much farther south; the Egyptians knew Kush = today central Sudan. ********************************** * Jerome Colburn * jscolbur@prairienet.org * im nfr mdw pn m bAH mryw mdw-nTr ********************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:24:47 +0100 (MET) From: Renata Landgrafova To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Aten Hymn Col. IX ---------- Forwarded message ---------- So, here's what I promised- (a little belated, I sent this on saturday, but the delivery failed. 29. stn.y=k xAs[w].tj.w (Thus) you differentited the foreigners. But why stn is written differently than in the previous line, I don't know. ir=k Hapy m dwA.t 30. in=k sw r mr=k r sanx rxy.t mi ir=k sn n=k You create Hapi in the Netherworld, you bring it to that which you love in order to let the common folks live since you have created them for yourself. From here on, we are back to the series of laudatory phrases addressing the Aten. This one describes Aten as the creator of the Nile. mr=k is an imperfective relative form - this is not the first time in thi= s text that an imperfective relative (be it a participle or a relative form) does not show gemination where it should. I think it's the influence of neo-egyptian again, where gemination looses significance and often disappears (cf. e.g. F. Junge, Neu=E4gyptisch, p. 68). One of the meanings of mi can be "because" or "for", so that's what I take it to be here (rather that "like" or "as of", which does not suit the context). nb=sn r-Aw wrd(.w) im=sn pA nb n tA nb wbn(.w) n=sn pA itn n hr.w Aa-Sf.t Lord of all of them who dwells(?) among them 31. Lord of the entire land who shines for them, Aten of the day, great of shine. Basically all as apposition to =k which ends the preceding line, the verb= s are active participles. I am not sure about wrd.w - the dictionary meaning is "tire, become weary" etc., but "who tires among them", or even "for them" is "a strange theological statement", to use Aayko's words... I have extended the meaning in the way tire > become calm > dwell, but it's just a guess. I am only sure that the structure must be this, I tried consdering wrd(.t) "weariness", but then there's an excess of NPs which don't seem to tie up anywhere AND we would have Aten being talked about and not addressed.... xAs.t xAs.wt nb(.wt) wA(.w)t ir=k anx=sn 32. di=k Hapy m pt hA.y=f n=sn Khaset and all faraway foreign countries, you provide for their needs, causing the Hapi-in-the-sky (i.e. rain) to come to them. Topicalization of "xAs.t ... wA(.w).t" and of the Hapi - probably due to length. irj anX "f=FCr Lebensbedarf sorgen", HWB p. 145. Can't be "make them live", anyway, that would be di=k anx=sn. Now I might be entirely wrong here, but the first "Khaset" could be a Wadi quite close to Egypt irrigated by rain - HWB p. 1373 gives similar names for several wadis, and this Khaset here is mentioned separately from the foreign countries (which are "far", this one being separate because it is not far???) Some of the wadis indeed derived all their irrigation from rainwater. What this would imply, though, is that this particular wadi would be inhabited. Best regards, Renata ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL Aten Hymn Cols. VII Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:16:57 +0100 Renata wrote: >>Anyway, to VII - . The =f is a great puzzle, for who is it? Any "he" in any language must unambiguously refer to something, but this one seems to leave us in darkness... << ****True, I thought Jerome's idea of using *nb (lord, but note no det.) as the missing antecedent was very inventive, also because *rpa.t.t would fit so nicely formwise in the open spot. However, the outcome is not totally comfortable to me: >*nb hAy=f m X.t *rpa.t.t hrw-msw=f wpw=k rA=f Hr qd ir=k Xr.t=f >"the lord, when he descends from the lady's womb, the day of his birth -- >thou openest his mouth entirely, thou makest what he needs." Would it be possible to squeeze an antecedent (put at the end of the line for emphasis) into the enigmatic part?: hAy=f m X.t --?--- hrw msw(.t)=f wpi=k rA=f Hr-qd ir(i)=k Xr.t=f "When he descends from the womb, the ---?--- on the day of his birth, you open his mouth completely, you fulfill his needs." Would that be possible grammatically? Not that I have a suggestion for a (masculine) noun to put under --?---..... (Unless: *tpr(.w) "breather" or "the one who breaths"?; would ask: dislocated r, second loaf must be nose, and the lowest sign must be hitting arm [det. with tpr; cf. Jerome's suggestion] - bit much changing, I admit) Your idea of ignoring the f (i.e. expecting a nominalized participle) would in a way be the most comfortable, Renata: "The one who decends..." Which brought me to this brainwave: What about a sDm.ty=fy form, prospective participle, with enclosed antecedent? I've little experience with that form, but the dual strokes at the end (fy) are often not written (nor are those in .ty btw). So for this solution we 'only' have to add one tiny little t.... :o hA.y=f(y) or hAy.(y)=f(y) "The one who shall descend from the womb to breath on the day of his birth, you (will) open his mouth entirely." Any thoughts about likelihood? (Unfortunately, the dual strokes seem in this case part of the verb, not of the ending, see line 32a and HWB 485, so my solution cannot derive support from them) Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:55:14 -0800 (PST) From: John Joseph Gaines To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language As of yet, I am merely a Classical Linguistics major (Attic Greek, and Classical Latin). I am trying to expand and venture into earlier languages. However, as much as I try to follow the messages on this server, I feel as if I am struck dumb. Some of this makes sense, but I still feel lost. My resources are hardly scholarly at all. Could someone help me out, and at least refer me to a few good books, or texts, that I could use in helping me understand what all this means? Thanks. --John Gaines ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:11:21 -0600 (CST) From: "Jerome S. Colburn" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: RE: AEL Aten Hymn Cols. VII On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Aayko Eyma wrote: > Renata wrote: > >>Anyway, to VII - . The =f is > a great puzzle, for who is it? Any "he" in any language must unambiguously > refer to something, but this one seems to leave us in darkness... << > > ****True, I thought Jerome's idea of using *nb (lord, but note no det.) > as the missing antecedent was very inventive, also because *rpa.t.t > would fit so nicely formwise in the open spot. However, the outcome is > not totally comfortable to me: Yes, I'll admit that the nb idea is a bit far-fetched. Another possibility for the antecedent, and very likely what the author had in mind, is the "son" back in column VI; in the same way, if there was a tall [s] after X.t, it would refer back to the "mother". If so, then di.w TA.w r sanx ir.t=f nb is an intrusion. I still want to hold on to rp[a].t.t, though, even without nb meaning "lord." It fits the traces so well. I had been going around wondering "p between two t's, where have I seen this before?" Of course, that doesn't mean that r tpr wasn't what was meant. If the original was written in hieratic, t and r differ only in size. The drafter of the hieroglyphs might have read r t p r as r t p t and let force of habit take over. ********************************** * Jerome Colburn * jscolbur@prairienet.org * im nfr mdw pn m bAH mryw mdw-nTr ********************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:28:15 +0100 (MET) From: Renata Landgrafova To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: RE: AEL Aten Hymn Cols. VII On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Aayko Eyma wrote: > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Your idea of ignoring the f (i.e. expecting a nominalized participle) would > in a way be the most comfortable, Renata: "The one who decends..." > Which brought me to this brainwave: > What about a sDm.ty=fy form, prospective participle, with enclosed > antecedent? I've little experience with that form, but the dual strokes at > the end (fy) are often not written (nor are those in .ty btw). So for this > solution we 'only' have to add one tiny little t.... :o > hA.y=f(y) or hAy.(y)=f(y) > "The one who shall descend from the womb to breath > on the day of his birth, you (will) open his mouth entirely." > Any thoughts about likelihood? (Unfortunately, the dual strokes > seem in this case part of the verb, not of the ending, see line 32a > and HWB 485, so my solution cannot derive support from them) > > Absolutely, I think your solution is ingenious - and nicely simple too, I should have thought of the sDm.ty.fy form myself. I guess this is what it would look like by such a word - the y being part of the verb, the Egyptians would simply leave one of the y=B4s out - just try writing the form wiht both of them in glyphs and you=B4ll understand why.... And this usage is exactly the one that sDm.ty.fy prefers. I have considered inserting a noun into our gap, but the gap is too small to receive one and, more importantly, the very appeareance of the noun as a subject of a preceding sentence makes anticipatory emphasis unlikely here - the topicalisation looses its main aim when the topicalised NP is integrated as a member of the preceding sentence. I would expect a stative, participal, or a circumstantial form in such a situation. Renata. > > > > ============================================================================== From: Thinus Smit To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:27:24 +0200 I have been following this list for a few months and I must confess; I have the same problem as John. I have increased my knowledge base but more information around the real nitty gritty of where do I find real good leads towards becoming really productive in what I am trying to teach myself or how the translations from the encoded to a more descriptive English sentence, is still illusive. Thinus Smit South Africa ============================================================================== From: "sean maxwell" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:27:20 GMT Hi, im a first year archaeology student in Belfast, i have come across a few books which are vital to the understanding of egyptian language demotic and hieroglyphic Jean Francis Champollion wrote three great books; summary of Hieroglyphic system of Ancient Egyptians (1824) Egyptian Grammar (1836-41) Egyptain Dictinary (1842-43) Also a good book to read once you have got basic knowledge has been suggested to me, Totenbuch der agypter (Egyptian book of the dead) by K.R.Lepsius 1842 ============================================================================== From: "Gallagher, Michael W., M.D." To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL Book Review Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:59:07 -0500 Does anyone know the URL of the web site of the publisher of Leo Depuydt's Fundamentals of Egyptian Grammar? Or, does anyone know how to procure this book. mwgallagher@partners.org Michael W. Gallagher, M.D. Maternal-Fetal Medicine Vincent Obstetrics Massachusetts General Hospital > -----Original Message----- > From: techpubs@csolutions.net [SMTP:techpubs@csolutions.net] > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 11:10 PM > To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > Subject: Re: AEL Book Review > > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. > Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of > sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > Tim > > By the way, another title that I have found very valuable as an > alternative > way to see the AEL verb system is: > > The Relationship of the Semitic and Egyptian Verbal Systems > by T. W. Thacker (Univ of Durham) > Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1954. > > matthew > > ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk'" Subject: AEL (FWD) Hieroglyphs Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:33:27 +0100 -----Forwarded message----- Matt Thayer , doing a paper for school, asks: 1. What are the theories concerning the origins and development of Egyptian Hieroglyphs? 2. What is the most popular theory on why there is not evidence of a pictographic stage that would develop into hieroglyphs? 3. What powered the change from hieroglyphic to demotic, and what bearings did it have on society, and how did this change evolve? ============================================================================== From: CHRISTINEDESSLER@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:51:51 EST Subject: Re: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk HI ya know i too am trying to learn..hehehe and i have the same question..if someone lets you know of any books..could you help a fellow self educator and let me know..i have been trying to find a good "first " book myself for quite awhile. Thanks and best of luck, hopefully someone will let you know. Sincerely, Dawn ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL Aton Hymn Col IX Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:13:06 +0100 Renata wrote: >ir=k Hapy m dwA.t >in=k sw r mr=k >r sanx rxy.t >mi ir=k sn n=k >You create Hapi in the Netherworld, >you bring it to that which you love >in order to let the common folks live >since you have created them for yourself. >mr=k is an imperfective relative form - this is not the first time >in this text that an imperfective relative (be it a participle or a relative form) >does not show gemination where it should. I think it's the influence of >neo-egyptian again, where gemination looses significance and often >disappears (cf. e.g. F. Junge, Neuegyptisch, p. 68). >One of the meanings of mi can be "because" or "for", so that's what I take >it to be here (rather that "like" or "as of", which does not suit the >context). **I can sympathise with the latter, but less with your explanation of mr=k. Although i notice I likewise presumed a missing gemination to get in HWB346: m/r mrr=f "so viel er will, so lange er will, etc" What do you and Jerome btw have for the verb forms in this section? The glyphs seem to have irr in both cases above, so imperfective sDm=f I thought, but _in_ seem to speak against that? Note that in 31, ir=k is just with an eye. >xAs.t xAs.wt nb(.wt) wA(.w)t >ir=k anx=sn >32. di=k Hapy m pt hA.y=f n=sn >Khaset and all faraway foreign countries, >you provide for their needs, >causing the Hapi-in-the-sky (i.e. rain) to come to them. >Topicalization of "xAs.t ... wA(.w).t" and of the Hapi - probably due to >length. >irj anX "Lebensbedarf sorgen", HWB p. 145. Can't be "make them live", >anyway, that would be di=k anx=sn. **Yes, true, my "make their life" was fish nor flesh. I suppose better would be "maintain their life" or "make/provide their livelihood", to get in the anx notion. I very much doubt the Khaset - sounds a bit odd to me. Properly xAs.w.t is written hills+t+plural strokes, and here we have hills+t+stroke+staff+hills+plural strokes, which would be a defective xAs.w.t. at the end in your option. Basically, looking at it again, it seems a variation of xAs.t.y.w, notably due to the staff: with the second hill taking the place of man+female det. See Faulkner p 185, and note that the variant of writing this word in our line 29 and upcoming line 34 is equally unusual. But as in the line 34 there is an odd excess hill det, I presumed that this was also the case here, and with ignoring the staff* and stroke we had just a plain xAs.w.t * Although note the staff is in tA-xAs.t (HWB1372; and not in the desert/wadi words you refer to). Jerome wrote: >> 31c) xAs.w.t nb(.w.t). wA(.w).t jr=k anx=sn >> "All far-away foreign lands, you make their life, >I took wA.t as the noun "way", with anticipatory emphasis: "All foreign >lands, you have made a way that they may live" (prospective). ***"faraway" is 'way' preferable, I think. :o >> Like Aton has made the Nile for Egypt (thought to come forth from >> below, perhaps via 'springs' at Elephantine; >well, not there, but much farther south; the Egyptians knew Kush = today >central Sudan. ****Go wash your mouth with Nile water, young man! ;P For you are not "thinking like an Egyptian" but like a moderner! How could the Pride&Joy of Egypt stem from wretched Kush!? ;) Kidding aside - the traditional AE view really was that the inundation rose from two springs in a cavern at Elephantine (Yebu). See Lichtheim vol II p 16,21 "the water that flows from Yebu" (a prayer) vol II p.54,56 "the cavern of the twin sources at Yebu" (Seti I) vol II p 199 the read ochre to make the inundation was fetched from Yebu (Destruction of Mankind) And notably Lichtheim vol III, p97,101: "Yebu... Seat of Re when he prepares to give life to every face..."Twin Caverns" is the water's name, they are the breasts that nourish all". (Famine Stela) Swap Re for Aton and we have a nice match to our text - via these caverns the Nile came from the Duat (our vs.29b). HWB 952 TpHt qr(r)ty Abu "die Hoele der beiden Quellloecher von Elephantine"; TpHt "Quellloch des Nils" etc Cf Faulkner p. 280 qrty kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "Ted Hootman" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:28:29 -0000 Hi John! I am a beginner myself here,but one of the books I have found helpful for the grammar is by Samuel A.B. Mercer,entitled;"A Study of the Ancient Language".It a handbook on Egyptian Hieroglyphs revised & expanded by Janice Kamrin,pH. It is a college level entrance book that moves along quite rapidly. Another reference frequently mentioned by this group, is the Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar on the Griffith Institute web site. Gardiner is a good reference,although I myself, do not have that copy,other than what has been downloaded to me from the beginning. Did U receive the beginning copies to study? If not,I would be happy to forward them to U to study too. U will find the Greek helpful during the later period of Egyptian writing following Alexander the Great taking over Egypt and assuming the throne as a Pharaoh. He even has a very interesting carving in the Karnak Temple at Luxor giving libations to Amun-Min. Check it out!LOL Amun-Min was the Egyptians Viagra God! A Friend from time and space,Ted the Pen( MSN ; Amun_Min) ----- Original Message ----- From: John Joseph Gaines To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 10:55 PM Subject: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > As of yet, I am merely a Classical Linguistics major (Attic Greek, and > Classical Latin). I am trying to expand and venture into earlier > languages. However, as much as I try to follow the messages on this > server, I feel as if I am struck dumb. Some of this makes sense, but I > still feel lost. My resources are hardly scholarly at all. Could someone > help me out, and at least refer me to a few good books, or texts, that I > could use in helping me understand what all this means? Thanks. > > --John Gaines > ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:13:40 +0100 John Gaines wrote: > Could someone > help me out, and at least refer me to a few good books, or texts, that I > could use in helping me understand what all this means? Please, check "Glyphs and Grammars. Part I: Resources for beginners": http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/glyphs.html More stuff in "Glyphs and Grammars. Part II: Advanced resources": http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/glyphs2.html Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL Book Review + Language resources Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:24:06 +0100 >>Does anyone know the URL of the web site of the publisher of Leo Depuydt's Fundamentals of Egyptian Grammar? Or, does anyone know how to procure this book.<< **At http://www1.tip.nl/~t017001/LD.html there's a description with a link to the distributor (there is only one at the moment), which I believe was under URL http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00415.htm ------- As there are so much questions after learning tools again -- by Thinus, Ted, Sean, John --- so once more the FAQ on these: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/glyphs.html Why are you all using grammars etc from the Stone Age?? No need for that at all. kind regards, Aayko Eyma (my provider was down, so i could not check the above URLs, think they are okay though) ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:14:36 +0100 (MET) From: Renata Landgrafova To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: RE: AEL Aton Hymn Col IX This is a reaction to Aayko=B4s comments, but if I copy the message, this will get too long and messy, so let=B4s train our memory... Anyway, Aayko, I guess you are right with r mr(r)=k. My version would actually need "to those which you love" as it is, it does not make much sense at a second, objective sight. As for the verb form of ir(r), which in did you consider as opposing your imperfective sDm=f? The in=k sw? I don=B4t see the relevance - this one is a circumstantial sDm= =f and does not provide any tense restrictions whatsoever. The ir does, actually, both position-wise and morphologically, look to be a prospective sDm=f, but that=B4s illogical in the context. So your imperfective is probably correct. Supposedly I just didn=B4t like the meaning that came out when translating it so. But perhaps we can stick to "imprefective" in analysis and "past" is translations - the egyptian tenses =E4re quite a mystery, and mostly only relative, anyway. Could the mi perhaps shift the tense? Still, I might be just thinking too much in Standard Average European terms. The Aten might "create them" every day anew, in a metaphorical expression or whatever. Best regards, Renata ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:52:10 +0100 (MET) From: Renata Landgrafova To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Grammars, grammars ... or No More Budge Please !!! Seeing the non-ending discussions on learning Egyptian, I couldn't but notice that so many of you guys are using Budges, Champollions and the like. With all due respect to these scholars, the books are about as outdated as the dinosaurs. Please do note that Champollion actually DECIPHERED the hieroglyphic script... So his "grammar" is really a student exercise in an unknown, unexplored language. And Budge ... well, again - too old to have the opportunity, for example, to employ linguistics in his study of Egyptian. It's all his gut feelings. Egyptian linguistics has gone through some development since then. To make a selection for those who really want to learn the language: Alan Henderson Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, being an introduction to the study of hieroglyphs. Griffith Institutte, Oxford. Ask for the 3rd edition. Even this one is a bit old - written in the 1920s, but Gardiner was a linguist (notable for the theory of speech acts), so his approach to Egyptian is a bit more systematic. It's a bit difficult for a beginner, though, for although it is an introduction, it sometimes lingers too long on the details and the student gets lost. A must for anyone who wants to be an egyptologist, but otherwise one can do without it. (There are no keys to exercises in Gardiner, but some are on the AEL website and some can be found in the grammar by James Hoch) A name to remember is Hans Jakob POLOTSKY. He wrote no grammar, but influenced the study of the Egyptian language significantly. His theories are based on structuralism (Ferdinand de Saussure is the best intro for that). He's the one who gave birth to the "Standard Theory" of verb - transpositions. Anyway, his Collected Papers are too specialised, and mostly deal with Coptic anyway. A succint ST - textbook is James HOCH - Middle Egyptian, Missassauga, Benben Publications 1995. A very ST - oriented book, but also very easy to study. It has a key to selected exercises - my experience is that the most problematic sentences are NOT found in the key.... A good companion to Gardiner, it adds the Polotskyan view and provides a guide through the jungle. You get to read the Shipwrecked Sailor as you proceed through the grammar. I'd say a good intro, but needs to be followed up by other grammars. For those who read French, a great course has been published recently in Paris, by Kheops foundation - P. GRANDET, B. MATHIEU: Cours d'Egyptien Hieroglyphique, in 2 vols. It's a step-by-step guide towards understanding MEg. Pascal Vernus saw the work over , so that's a guarantee it's good. Now it's hard to assess these post-polotskyan works, since now there appeares to be no real mainstream theory, everyone having his own. They don't differ too much, so I guess what matters in beginner textbooks is accessibility. I'd definitely recommend this one. There are also the grammars by BOYO OCKINGA and H. GRAEFE, short introductions, but they do help too. I don't have too much experince with them, though. A good one in German is Wolfgang SCHENKEL, T=FCbinger Enf=FChrung in die mittel=E4gyptische Sprache und Schrift. Be careful to get the 1999 violet edition, he constantly reworks his grammars and this latest stage is finally also quite comprehensive. Gives Schenkel's version of post-polotskyan theory, interesting also since he had once been a devout Plotskyan, but changed some of his views. To my taste, he's just a little too over-systematic. And, of course, there are the new books by Depuydt and Allen. I am still waiting for my copies to arrive, so I can't be of help. From what I heard, Allen's very good. Depuydt's is just part 1, and I guess it is not meant as a beginner textbook, although, as I wrote, I haven't seen it yet. There are more, but it's getting late now. I hope I could be of help, and, please "don't Budge!" Renata ============================================================================== From: "Vincent P. Adams" To: Subject: AEL DICTIONARY Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:36:07 -0600 Can someone please tell me where I can get a copy of the most recent addition of Faulkners' Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. Hopefuly the source will be able to ship it to me right away second-day air. I am taking my first course in Middle Egyptian and I need it (yesterday) to help with translations for mid-terms coming up soon! Yours Truly Vincent P. Adams ============================================================================== To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: techpubs@csolutions.net (Matthew Sorenson) Subject: RE: AEL Book Review + Language resources Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:54:18 -0700 What does Aayko mean by 'grammars from the Stone Age'? What is it about older grammars that is insufficient for beginners? What is the linguistic evidence that makes more recent grammars better, either from a scientific or a pedagogical point of view? Considering the widely reported experience that more recent grammars are full of insider's jargon that is not standard terminology in linguistics, what recommends them for learning purposes? thanks. ============================================================================== From: "Randall Larsen" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL DICTIONARY Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:30:47 -1000 Vincent, I received my copy from Amazon. com. I also received Hannig's more extensive German GroBes Handworterbuch Agyptisch-Deutsch form Amazon in Deutschland. kind regards, Randall Larsen University of Hawaii, at Manoa ----- Original Message ----- From: Vincent P. Adams To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 12:36 PM Subject: AEL DICTIONARY > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Can someone please tell me where I can get a copy of the most recent > addition of Faulkners' Concise > Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. Hopefuly the source will be able to ship > it to me right away second-day air. I am taking my first course in > Middle Egyptian and I need it (yesterday) to help with translations for > mid-terms coming up soon! > > > Yours Truly > Vincent P. Adams > ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:57:48 GMT To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language From: Brian Yare In article <20000222102721.49339.qmail@hotmail.com>, Sean maxwell wrote: > Jean Francis Champollion wrote three great books; > summary of Hieroglyphic system of Ancient Egyptians (1824) > Egyptian Grammar (1836-41) > Egyptain Dictinary (1842-43) > It would certainly be interesting to see how these books compare to more modern texts - having been written in the infancy of translation. Personally, I'd prefer to have Gardiner, Faulkner and Allen on the shelf! Brian Yare ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:08:12 +0100 (MET) From: Renata Landgrafova To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: RE: AEL Book Review + Language resources On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Matthew Sorenson wrote: > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > What does Aayko mean by 'grammars from the Stone Age'? What is it about > older grammars that is insufficient for beginners? What is the linguistic > evidence that makes more recent grammars better, either from a scientific > or a pedagogical point of view? Simply the fact that they make use of linguistic theories. Ever since structuralism, linguistics is a very systematic discipline, which concentrates on the relationships between form and function. This approach is NOT found in the older grammars. That't what makes new grammars better. Considering the widely reported experience that more recent grammars are > full of insider's jargon that is not standard terminology in linguistics, > what recommends them for learning purposes? > Depends on what you call insider's jargon and how much you are willing to learn. There's not much standard terminology in linguistics either, consider, for example, the discussions on the basic term Subject. As long as the meaning of a term is clearly defined by the author, it does not really matter if he calls a form "circumstantial," "adverbial" or whatever. And modern garmmars DO defiene their terms. Yes, I admit it's sometimes difficult to realize that A of one grammar is B of another, on the other hand, the ability to do so proves that one has understood the underlying theories. BTW, what standard linguisitc terminology have you found in Budge? Best regards, Renata Landgrafova > > > ============================================================================== From: "Gallagher, Michael W., M.D." To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL DICTIONARY Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:25:08 -0500 It is available through http://www.amazon.com, but I don't know how soon it ships. Michael W. Gallagher, M.D. Maternal-Fetal Medicine Vincent Obstetrics Massachusetts General Hospital > -----Original Message----- > From: Vincent P. Adams [SMTP:coptic@webzone.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 5:36 PM > To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk > Subject: AEL DICTIONARY > > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. > Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of > sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > Can someone please tell me where I can get a copy of the most recent > addition of Faulkners' Concise > Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. Hopefuly the source will be able to > ship > it to me right away second-day air. I am taking my first course in > Middle Egyptian and I need it (yesterday) to help with translations for > mid-terms coming up soon! > > > Yours Truly > Vincent P. Adams ============================================================================== From: "Gallagher, Michael W., M.D." To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL Book Review + Language resources Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:54:06 -0500 Your point is a good one, and the answer is not simple. "Living" languages change, so we know that a grammar of English written in the 1600's would not be suitable for a person learning English today. However, it would be suitable for a scholar studying 1600's English literature. So, the "best" grammar for Middle Egyptian would be one written in the Middle Kingdom. Unfortunately that has not yet been discovered, so for a "dead" (I hate that word applied to language since even Egyptian lives on in these discussions) language grammars are constructed from hindsight, as it were. Scholars examine texts and, based on clues from living analogues of the language, principles of linguistics, and experience with the culture, write a grammar. However, as the sciences of anthropology, linguistics, archeology advance, more is known. New texts are discovered that shed light on the usage of terms, meanings of words, etc. So, Champolion's grammar in itself is excellent, and teaches us all he knew about Egyptian. But, more is now known, so the later grammars reflect this later scholarship and (we hope!) correct mistakes based on new findings. So, what grammar should one use? It depends on why you want to learn. If one wishes to be up with what is currently known in the field of Egyptology, then one should get a grammar that reflects the latest scholarship. If you want a flavor for what was understood about Egyptian in the later part of the 1800's, then a grammar from that period will suffice. Sometimes insights from an older grammar combined with new facts can result in a breakthrough in understanding os a language. What most scholars do in a classical language is get one "classic" grammar based on thorough scholarship (probably Gardiner in the case of Middle Egyptian) and "tune" or "update" their knowledge with the latest findings presented in a modern grammar. Michael W. Gallagher, M.D. Maternal-Fetal Medicine Vincent Obstetrics Massachusetts General Hospital mwgallagher@partners.org > -----Original Message----- > From: techpubs@csolutions.net [SMTP:techpubs@csolutions.net] > Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 12:54 AM > To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > Subject: RE: AEL Book Review + Language resources > > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. > Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of > sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > What does Aayko mean by 'grammars from the Stone Age'? What is it about > older grammars that is insufficient for beginners? What is the linguistic > evidence that makes more recent grammars better, either from a scientific > or a pedagogical point of view? > > Considering the widely reported experience that more recent grammars are > full of insider's jargon that is not standard terminology in linguistics, > what recommends them for learning purposes? > > thanks. > ============================================================================== From: Ninurta99@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:43:23 EST Subject: AEL Universities To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Fellow Scholars, I've never replied to the list and may very well be the youngest on it (being a Freshman in college), but having been interested in Egyptian since my fencing coach introduced it to me several years ago. Currently I am pursuing an Anthropology degree and will eventually be moving on to an Archaeology degree, but I am uncertain as to what college, in all of your opinions, to attend to study Egyptology. My education in Egyptian is relatively basic, right now I am starting with a simpler language, New Testament Greek, while using my scanty spare time to try and understand what you all are talking about! However, I want my degree (my Ph.D. that is) to reflect Egyptology. Perhaps even earn an Egyptology degree. But that is far away in my plans as of right now. My immediate goals include getting breakfast so I can get to class!! My professors have suggested Duke since they apparently have storehouses full papyrus scrolls to decipher. Thanks! Cameron. ============================================================================== From: "Alex" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:54:26 -0600 [Moderator's note: The "tomb of Osiris" discovery has been reported on the EEF and ane lists. If any of you wish to follow up regarding that report please do so via one of these lists, or other suitable forum. ] Wow Thank all of you! Though I'm still a bit overwhelmed I have now been pointed to the right direction. Finding schools here in Texas that have what I'm looking for, has so far been an exercise in fustration. I guess until I can get a ticket to go to England, I'm stuck on this solo venture of mine. BTW I heard a brief sound bite on the news the other day that the some archeologists found what could be the tomb of Osiris? Surely something like that deserves it's own Discovery Channel special. :) Alex Rivera United States Army riveraa75@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Yare" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 4:57 AM Subject: Re: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In article <20000222102721.49339.qmail@hotmail.com>, Sean maxwell > wrote: > > Jean Francis Champollion wrote three great books; > > summary of Hieroglyphic system of Ancient Egyptians (1824) > > Egyptian Grammar (1836-41) > > Egyptain Dictinary (1842-43) > > > > It would certainly be interesting to see how these books compare to > more modern texts - having been written in the infancy of translation. > > Personally, I'd prefer to have Gardiner, Faulkner and Allen on the > shelf! > > Brian Yare > > > ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:12:41 -0500 From: John McKendry To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL DICTIONARY Gallagher, Michael W., M.D. wrote: > (Of Faulkner's dictionary:) > It is available through http://www.amazon.com, but I don't know how soon it > ships. > Amazon appears to be quoting 4-6 weeks to ship. It is more readily available from Schoenhof's Foreign Books in Cambridge, MA, http://www.schoenhofs.com . I haven't been in there recently, but they almost always have it in stock, and I'm sure they would be happy to ship it quickly. -John McKendry ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:37:00 -0500 From: John McKendry To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL DICTIONARY (afterthought) Vincent P. Adams wrote: > > Can someone please tell me where I can get a copy of the most recent > addition of Faulkners' Concise > Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. Hopefuly the source will be able to ship > it to me right away second-day air. (...) If Schoenhof's doesn't have it, try Eisenbraun's in Warsaw, Indiana - it's listed at http://www.eisenbrauns.com/sscat/ane/ANE-18.html ( their search facility is kind of awkward compared to Schoenhof's; this URL takes you right to the listing). As with Schoenhof's, there's a very good chance they have it in stock and ready to ship. -John McKendry ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:23:23 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Cleary Subject: Re: AEL Grammars, grammars ... To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Renata, Diky moc krat! You certainly have a lot of information in this message. I am especially curious about the reference to the Cours d'Egyptien Hieroglyphique. Do you know how might find more information about it via the Internet? (I have tried and so far only been able to access its catelog information in the Library of Congress). Thanks. Tim Cleary UAE University --- Renata Landgrafova wrote: > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for > AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply > privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > For those who read French, a great course has been > published > recently in Paris, by Kheops foundation - P. > GRANDET, B. MATHIEU: Cours > d'Egyptien Hieroglyphique, in 2 vols. It's a > step-by-step guide towards > understanding MEg. Pascal Vernus saw the work over , > so that's a guarantee > it's good. > ============================================================================== From: Ninurta99@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 01:48:11 EST Subject: AEL thankx To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Many thanks to all who replied to me in regards to colleges! Hopefully I can make an intelligent decision when it comes to choosing my future. Any other help would be appreciated. Cameron. ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:03:17 +0100 (MET) From: Renata Landgrafova To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Grammars, grammars ... On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Tim Cleary wrote: > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tim, I am glad I could help. (Reply off-list, but where on Earth did you learn Czech?) As for the Frech Cours, this is the info right from the publisher: Pierre Grandet, Mathieu Bernard Cours d=B4egyptien hieroglyphique, Nouvelle edition revue et commentee (2 vols in one, better than the 1st, 2-vol edition, I forgot to mention this in the 1st message), 872 pp., 390 FF. ISBN 2-9504368-2-X editions Kheops 16, rue Albert-Bayet 75013 Paris e-mail: kheops@egypt.edu FAX: (33) 01 44 24 88 04 I guess =A8you can order from them. If this does not work, try Librairie du Louvre, they seem to have it in stock: e-mail liblouvr@rmn.fr Laurence Kersuzan, Dominique Braemer Hope you are successful with at least one of them. > > Dear Renata, > > Diky moc krat! You certainly have a lot of information > in this message. I am especially curious about the > reference to the Cours d'Egyptien Hieroglyphique. Do > you know how might find more information about it via > the Internet? (I have tried and so far only been able > to access its catelog information in the Library of > Congress). Thanks. > > Tim Cleary > UAE University > > --- Renata Landgrafova > wrote: > > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for > > AEL resources. Copyright in > > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply > > privately, use address of sender. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > > For those who read French, a great course has been > > published > > recently in Paris, by Kheops foundation - P. > > GRANDET, B. MATHIEU: Cours > > d'Egyptien Hieroglyphique, in 2 vols. It's a > > step-by-step guide towards > > understanding MEg. Pascal Vernus saw the work over , > > so that's a guarantee > > it's good. > > ============================================================================== To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Grammars, grammars ... From: Serge Rosmorduc Date: 24 Feb 2000 11:28:08 +0100 Tim Cleary writes: > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Renata, > > Diky moc krat! You certainly have a lot of information > in this message. I am especially curious about the > reference to the Cours d'Egyptien Hieroglyphique. Do > you know how might find more information about it via > the Internet? (I have tried and so far only been able > to access its catelog information in the Library of > Congress). Thanks. > > Tim Cleary > UAE University The editor can be contacted from http://www.egypt.edu/kheops/editions/cours03.htm regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:26:23 +0100 Brian Yare wrote: > Sean maxwell > wrote: >> Jean Francis Champollion wrote three great books; >> summary of Hieroglyphic system of Ancient Egyptians (1824) >> Egyptian Grammar (1836-41) >> Egyptain Dictinary (1842-43) >> > > It would certainly be interesting to see how these books compare to > more modern texts - having been written in the infancy of translation. Some of Champollion's works are available in cheap reprints: [accents and cedille omitted] -- Jean-Francois Champollion, Lettre a M. Dacier, Firmin Didot Pere et Fils, Paris, 1822 (reprint 1989), ISBN: 2851941704, price: FRF 87 -The famous report in which Champollion explained his discoveries for the first time. front cover: http://img.echo.fr/livre_r?l_isbn=2851941704r -- Jean-Francois Champollion, Grammaire egyptienne ou Principes generaux de l=92ecriture sacree egyptienne, Typographie de Firmin Didot Freres, Paris, 1836 (reprint 1997), ISBN: 2742715584, price: FRF 158 - Completely out-of-date and only of historical interest; with colored hieroglyphs. front cover: http://img.echo.fr/livre_r?l_isbn=2742715584r back cover: http://img.echo.fr/livre_r?l_isbn=2742715584v Both books are available from http://www.alapage.com/ or from the specialized bookshop Cybele cybele@worldnet.fr (catalog: http://www.egypt.edu/cybele/cybele.htm ) -- Jean-Francois Champollion, Dictionnaire egyptien en ecriture hieroglyphe (reprint forthcoming), ISBN: 2742725474, price: FRF 159 Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knnut.de ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:21:25 -0800 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Intro to Egyptian Language Michael Tilgner wrote: > > It would certainly be interesting to see how these books compare to > > more modern texts - having been written in the infancy of translation. Totally out of date! It is amazing how much Champollion had managed to figure out - the fellow was truly an awesome intellect. However, there was an awful lot that he didn't know, and which has been figured out over the past 150 years by other bright fellows. > -- Jean-Francois Champollion, Grammaire egyptienne ou Principes generaux de > lecriture sacree egyptienne, Typographie de Firmin Didot Freres, Paris, > 1836 (reprint 1997), ISBN: 2742715584, price: FRF 158 - Completely > out-of-date and only of historical interest; with colored hieroglyphs. It is also available on-line at: http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1135.C45 -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk'" Subject: AEL Roots/nisbe Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:44:53 +0100 Hi all, Does someone know what the feminine form of the nisbe was in Old Egyptian? I always presumed that the writing in Middle Egyptian was defective (i.e. not writing the weak consonants anymore), that is: nw.t.y "local" -> nw.t(.y).t also when nominalised: xft.y "enemy" --> xft(.y).t But Allen p. 36+59 seems not to agree: "-t... in PLACE of the (masculine) ending -j in nisbes" - although he could be speaking of the normal _writing_ in MEg., so looking at it from a observer's view rather than a grammatical/etymological view? I've no direct examples of cases in which the (y) was still written in Middle Egyptian, unless HWB598 could serve as such (xftt written with a double reed in one case). A similar thing for "actor" nouns on .w (p.36). I'm less sure of these, but also there I thought we would get (.w).t HfA.w ---> HfA(.w).t So the t added to the masculine form, not the root, but with the w at that time just not (always) written anymore. Hence my question how the situation was in older stages. Not very relevant, perhaps, if only the defective forms occure in MEg; but an irregularity-in-writing is not the same as an irregularity-in-grammar, and as student I tend to find the first more easily to swallow/digest than the latter. kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:28:41 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Kerry & Linda Subject: AEL Place Name Hello, I am in the process of translating passages from Cauville's "Dendara - I: Traduction", from French to English. In the inscriptions the place name "Iatdi" ( 'I3t-di ) keeps coming up. In looking at the text it is obvious that this is a reference to a place, however I am unfamiliar with this name. Can someone please enlighten me on this word. Thank you in advance, Kerry Wisner ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Roots/nisbe Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:17:25 +0100 Aayko Eyma wrote: > Does someone know what the feminine form of the nisbe was > in Old Egyptian? Dear Aayko, Elmar Edel, Altaegyptische Grammatik [OE grammar], Rome, 1955, paragraph 342 stated that -i was hardly ever written in feminine forms; he cited two examples with -i: i-m-M17A-t Kairo 28118, 239 i-M-i-Z11-t:pr "testament" ASAE, vol. 41, p. 32 (1932) However, he noted that certain Coptic words might indicate that there had been a feminine form of -.t only instead of -i.t in OE, for example bAst.t "Bastet = the one (f.) of the town bAs.t" and not *bAst.i.t". Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Place Name Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:53:21 +0100 Kerry Wisner wrote: > I am in the process of translating passages from Cauville's "Dendara - I: > Traduction", from French to English. In the inscriptions the place name > "Iatdi" ( 'I3t-di ) keeps coming up. In looking at the text it is obvious > that this is a reference to a place, however I am unfamiliar with this > name. Can someone please enlighten me on this word. LAe I, 1060-1063, s.v. "Dendera": ... temple of the birth of Isis which was read iA.t-di ... (1060) Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL Roots/nisbe Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 14:29:43 +0100 >>Elmar Edel, Altaegyptische Grammatik [OE grammar], Rome, 1955, paragraph 342 stated that -i was hardly ever written in feminine forms; he cited two examples with -i: i-m-M17A-t Kairo 28118, 239 i-M-i-Z11-t:pr "testament" ASAE, vol. 41, p. 32 (1932) However, he noted that certain Coptic words might indicate that there had been a feminine form of -.t only instead of -i.t in OE, for example bAst.t "Bastet = the one (f.) of the town bAs.t" and not *bAst.i.t".<< Thanks Michael! With so little examples of a possible -(y).t, I think supposing an 'symmetric form' would not make much sense. Allen's opinion of course is the general opinion. Cf Loprieno p.56-57: nisbe masc. -y */-iy/, fem. -t */-it/ (-i- being genitive ending) imn.t.y */yamintiy/ > Copt. emnt /?@ment/ imn.t.t */yamintit/ > Copt. am^nte /?ament@/ My thought came from the fact that in the plural fem., the w is also hardly ever written -(.w).t And my question seems somewhat similar to what Loprieno says on p.60 about the dual: it is not know whether with the fem. the ending -y was added to the singular (the general opinion; [1]) or to the plural (as symmetry with the masc. would require [2]): masc. sn - sn.w.y > Copt. snau */snaw/ fem. sn.t - sn.t.y [or *sn.(w.)t.y?] > Copt. s^nte /sent@/ my thoughts added: [1] thus generating a split rule, which can have three forms, EITHER (with different endings) a) masc.: dual = singular + -wy fem.: dual = singular + -y OR (with different basis) b) masc. : dual = plural + -y fem.: dual = singular + -y OR (different endings again) c) masc: dual = root + wy fem : dual = root + ty Brunner has (c), Borghouts has (b), Allen has (a) [2] giving one rule, with two possible forms: EITHER (what Loprieno above seems to imply) a) masc/fem: dual = plural + -y OR (as i think dualis tend to be formed via root/singular + ending, e.g. IE or Hebrew) b) masc/fem: dual = root + plural ending + y Warn me if I'm babbling ;) I realize that symmetry and regularity are seldomly a linguistic reality. kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 11:25:13 -0500 () From: Robyn Adams Gillam To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Place Name Iatdi is another name for Dendera. For fuller discussion, refer to E. Chassinat, *Le Mystere d'Osriris au mois de Khoiak*. Best Wishes, Robyn Gillam Programme in Classical Studies York University, Toronto CANADA On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Kerry & Linda wrote: > Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:28:41 -0500 > From: Kerry & Linda > Reply-To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk > Subject: AEL Place Name > > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hello, > > I am in the process of translating passages from Cauville's "Dendara - I: > Traduction", from French to English. In the inscriptions the place name > "Iatdi" ( 'I3t-di ) keeps coming up. In looking at the text it is obvious > that this is a reference to a place, however I am unfamiliar with this > name. Can someone please enlighten me on this word. > > Thank you in advance, > > Kerry Wisner > ============================================================================== To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL AEL: Manuel de codage Mailing list From: Serge Rosmorduc Date: 27 Feb 2000 21:10:27 +0100 The long discussion on encoding on the list, an a number of personnal mails, have triggered a project I had long time ago, which was to propose a new, XML-based, version of the Manuel de Codage. The list is definitly not the place to speak about it. What I suggest is that people interested in encoding contact me, and we'll make a discussion list about it. The problems I want to address are twofold : a) the current MdC is ok for simple things, and is simple enough to be typed manually. But even current programs have different versions for it, none of which is the "real" manuel de codage. I haven't already looked at the new Macscribe, but the next version of winglyph will include possibilities that the current Manuel doesn't handle. So we need a common EXCHANGE format for PROGRAMS -- and probably conversion filters to and from existing formats. If the new format is clear enough, the meaning of the construct won't be ambiguous as it is now (I'm thinking of [[ and ]], for example). b) by making it an XML format, it will be extensible --- that is, we'll be able to deal with future needs. I hope it was short enough. Please answer off list ! regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Vincent P. Adams" To: Subject: AEL Study Materials Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:43:34 -0600 First of all I would like to thank those of you who responded to my first post requesting help in finding a copy of Faulkner's dictionary. Barnes & Noble finaly came through although it took them nearly a month to do so. I know have a copy of Gardiner, Hoch, and Englund. However, I am still waiting on my copy of Ockinga that my professor order for the class over a month ago. I just recieved Depuydt's grammar in the mail this past friday, and Oxford University Press has promised delivery of Allen's grammar in 1-2 weeks. I was also luky to obtain a copy of Mr. Fletchers CD-ROM program titled "Learning Egyptian Hieroglyphs". The latest version of Winglyphs I'm told will not be available for another 3-4 weeks. I have a couple of questions that I hope the list members can help me with: 1. Depuydt on pg.18 of his grammar transliterates the "reed" (m-17 in Gardiners' sign-list) as "y" instead of "i" as in most other grammars I've seen. To me this can be confusing when looking up words in Faulkner, or other sources. Can someone elaborate please? 2. In class we are translating the story of Sinuhe (Die Lebensgeschichle des Linuhe) from Middle Egyptian into English. Can anyone tell me where I can get this story already transliterated & translated, along with the original middle egyptian hieroglyphic texts, either on-line or from the libary etc? It would be nice if this is available in a interlinear format, but I'll take whatever I can get. 3.I would also like to find some good quality Coptic grammars and dictionaries. Sincerely Vincent P. Adams coptic@webzone.net ==============================================================================