Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 21:29:48 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Cleary Subject: Re: AEL Good book for learning Ancient Egyptian To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear List, Good news, as some of you already know, this book has already been published and is easily available from Cambridge University Press. I do, again, recommend this book for anyone who is looking for a good introduction to the language. > itself). One of the new books > to which you may be referring is James P. Allen's > "Middle Egyptian: An > Introduction to the Language and Culture of > Hieroglyphs" (ISBN 0521653126). I > believe this is due out in February, 2000. I hope > this is helpful. Respectfully, Tim UAE University ============================================================================== From: "Kymm Nelsen" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Winglyph Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 21:44:00 -0800 Hi Everyone, Sorry to barge in like this, especially with such a basic question, but here it goes. :) I am as newbie as newbie can be, so where do I start? Should I get Winglyph...a book...lurk here...what? Doing a little research, it looks like Winglyph runs about $242 US. Eek! Any suggestions? A tremendous thanks to any who have a moment to set me on the right course, Kymm ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 01:38:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Benjamin A. Martin" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Khakheperreseneb Line 70 r Dr=f Hello all, 70. dwA tw r wxd(w) ra nb one arises to suffering every day 71. aw.w wdn mn=i my illness is long and burdensome 72. nn pHty n mAi(r)w m-a r=f for misery is without strength 73. m-a wsr on account of the powerful xAyt pw gr r sDmw.t silence to what is heard is pain 74. Ahw pw wSb n xm the answer to the ignorant is pain 75. xsf xn Hr xpr rqw one who opposes the saying concerning what is come to pass and one who tilts the balance(scale) 76. n sSp ib mAa.t the heart does not accept what is just 77. n wxd tw smi n md.t one cannot bear patiently the report of what is spoken 78. mri nb si Ts=f every love of man is his own talk 79. bw-nb grg Hr XAbb every one who is founded in crookedness 80. bt mty mdw.t is one who forsakes loyal(trustworthy, faithful) speech 81. Dd=i n=k ib=i wSb=i n=i I speak to you, my heart, and you will answer me 82. n gr n ib pH mk Xr.t mi nb silence is not for the heart which is approached, behold the dues of the servant are like unto the masters'. 83. aSA.t wdn Hr=k Much rests upon you. Sorry to post so many difficult lines at once. I had an uncontrollable urge to find out how it all ends. In lines 72-73 the double m-a r=f sandwiching wsr really gave me a hard time. Does this construction have a special meaning? In line 74, what is written here ihw I read as a variant of Ahw-pain trouble. 75. I reeeeeally don't like this line. I don't know what to make of it. So what I have is pretty much guesswork. 77. This looks suspiciously like a n sDm.n=f construction(he cannot hear) This seems to make sense with what comes after in the next line. 78. At first I wanted to read it 'every man loves his own saying,' but then I noticed the wierdish placement of nb. If it was going to be every man I think it would be written si-nb. Thus my rendering- every love of man. Unfortunately the ending is as cryptic as the rest of the text. Some suggest that this is only a portion of a larger work, and others say 'this is all she wrote'. Ben Martin ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:35:42 -0800 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AEL Scroll of Ani Teresh000@aol.com wrote: > I'm a newcomer to this list, and I've got a question about a text > I'm studying. I've got the facsimile version of The Book of the Dead: > Papyrus of Ani and Budge's typeset version of the same thing, and I''ve > been comparing the two. Am I wrong, or are a lot of the columns of the > text written backwards? That is, the glyphs are all facing to the right, > but the next line of text also continues on the right. Is this true, or am > I reading them totally wrong? You are quite correct. In a large part of this papyrus, while the writing in the columns is from right-to-left (the normal direction for writng) the columns themselves are arranged to be read from left-to-right. This seems to be the result of the scroll being unrolled from the left end, so the reader of the scribe writing it would meet the columns left-to-right. Normally one would expect that the writing within the columns would then also be left-to-right, but in this case, the habit of writing the signs right-to-left seems to have been too strong. This leads to the question of how many scrolls were written to be unrolled from the left as opposed to the right. The Middle Kingdom texts all seem to be unrolled from the right. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:36:47 -0800 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re:More problems santiago gonzalez wrote: > Sorry to disturb again, but I have found some problems. It seems that in > certain sentences I cant find the exact relation between words and the > results of my translations are quite incoherent. > > 1) iw ir.n n.i Hm.f xt nbt nfrt rx.n.f wi m imi-r kat(w) iqr r imi-r kat(w) nb n > Ta. The structure of the main clause is: iw ir.n n=i Hm.f xt nb.t nfr.t verb ind.obj subject object did for me His Majesty everything good In the subordinate clause (a circumstantial clause) rx.n=f is the past tense of rx "learn" and so means "know." The best translation of the verb might be "because he knew." There is no written "w" in kAt, and if you suspect an implied one it should go BEFORE the "t," so kA(w)t. My own feeling is that it is actually a singular collective noun, hence the plural strokes. The plural strokes are not a "w" sound. "iqr r" is a comparison "more perfect than" or "better than." And note that "nb" can be translated into English as "any," "every," or even "all kinds of" (the latter possible in xt nb.t nfr.t. > this I read as: His majesty made me do all sorts of good things at learning > I was the best project supervisor among the project suprvisors in this land. So you were fairly close - the main thing that was throwing you off was recognizing that "n=i" is the indirect object. Remember, when the indirect object is a pronoun it comes before the subject. Also remember that the Egyptians didn't usually express the connection between clauses explicitly, and so we have to supply some sort of cunjunction in English (or other European language) because our languages insist on explicit expression of these relationships. You will find that once you have read the first part of Chapter 5 on word order that some of these problems may be cleared up - although the points are mentioned individually earlier, this section synthesizes them into a set of (I think) clear diagrams. > 2) iw gmi nDs Dd.f m ib mAa. Main clause: iw gm nDs We must either understand an unexpressed first person subject (iw gm=i nDs) or treat it as a passive with nDs as the subject. So the translation could be either "I find a common man" or "A common man is found." Subordinate clause: Dd=f m ib mAa The phrase "m ib mAa" literally "in a true mind" but probably better translated in English as "truly" or "honestly." Notice that this type of construction with "ib" is very similar to the origin of adverbs in the Romance languages - vera mente (Latin) "in a true mind" = "truly" So the translation would be "He speaks honestly." Since this sentence is being used as a subordinate clause we may translate it as "who speaks honestly," although it would be OK to understand it as two very short sentences with only an implied connection, which is exactly the way the Egyptians seem to have approached things. > Maybe Im taking a wrong approach to this sentences, and my questions are > probably very basic. They will probably seem trivial to you in a while if you persevere, however at your stage it is quite understandable that you might find it a bit confusing - after all the word order is considerably different that English or the Romance languages. Please don't appologize for asking such questions - that is actually the sort of thing that this list is here for (anything else that happens here is just icing). -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Morrison, Anne (FMC)" To: "'AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk'" Subject: AEL Winglyph Queries Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:59:49 +1030 Hi All, Further to the Winglyph query, could someone please advise me of the minimum computer memory requirements to run this program? What is the minimum printer requirement? Does an inkjet printer produce an acceptable result? Finally, is there an Australian distributer of Winglyph? Thanks in advance, Anne ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:59:55 -0800 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Winglyph Kymm Nelsen wrote: > Sorry to barge in like this, especially with such a basic question, > but here it goes. :) Remember the only dumb question is the one you don't ask, because then you never learn the answer. > I am as newbie as newbie can be, so where do I start? Should I get > Winglyph...a book...lurk here...what? Doing a little research, it > looks like Winglyph runs about $242 US. Eek! Well, a good place to start would be Collier & Manley, _How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphs_. It will give you and introduction to some of the grammar, vocabulary, and cultural context of some real hieroglyphic texts. It isn't too horrendously expensive (see amazon.com for instance) and you might even be able to borrow it through your library. You should also pick up whatever hints you can from Web sites, books, magazines - anywhere. Some starting points for finding Egyptian pages on the Web are: http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/egypt.html (my home page for Egyptian) http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html (the home page for this list) You should not only lurk here but contribute to the continuing health and value of the list by asking more "dumb questions" -that is one its main reasons to exist. As for WinGlyph, its major use is for people like me who are too busy, artistically challenged, or just plain lazy to draw the glyphs when working on exercises that require translation into Egyptian. For that pupose, you could download the demo version for free from the CCER ( http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/ ). -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 72-76 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:33:20 PST 72) nn pH.ty n mAir m-a r=f The wretched man has no strength for it, nn pH.ty n mAir - non-verbal sentence of possession with adverbial predicate. The wretched man is the object of the preposition 'n'. (No strength to the wretched man..) m-a - also indicates possession. Perhaps not to be translated but there for emphasis. (?) 73) m-a wsr r=f in the hand of one who is powerful against him. xA(y).t pw gr r sDm.t It is a disease to be silent concerning what is heard. sDm.t - Imperfective passive participle. 74) Ahw pw wSb n xm It is misery to answer to those who do not know. 75) Hdi xn Hr=s xpr rqw To oppose speech about it creates enmity. 76) n Ssp n ib mAa.t The heart does not accept truth. m Htp Jenny Carrington jennycarrington@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Nook/7916/ArtWorks.html ============================================================================== From: "santiago gonzalez" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Re:More problems Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:10:05 ART Thank you very much for your answer that was very clear.And the beggining of chapter 5 did enlightened me a bit. Still, I find the separation of sentences quite arbitrary or obscure. So when I think Im dealing with a subordinate clause I find later Is a separate (although connected) sentence. For example, in the first sentence: > > 1) iw ir.n n.i Hm.f xt nbt nfrt rx.n.f wi m imi-r kat(w) iqr r imi-r >kat(w) nb n > > Ta. Should it be: His majesty made for me all sorts of good things at learning > > I was the best project supervisor among the project suprvisors in this >land. Or should it be two separate sentences? I tihnk ther might be a rule or else egyptians wrote in a very ambiguous fashion. Already thankfull: Santiago ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:14:18 -0700 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: charley rhodes Subject: AEL Odd symbol Well, as a beginner who has been lurking and reading the interesting discussions. Now I have a question for some of the experts. I have come across a symbol (glyph) that I can't seem to find in the symbol lists from Gardiner, or Allen. It looks like a three-legged pie, that is a pie symbol with a middle third leg. I have now seen it on several different inscriptions. I thought at first that it might have been the "pool" symbol (S) followed by the plural symbol, but examining the glyph on several inscriptions shows that it looks more like a three-legged pie. Any ideas??? c.rhodes ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Khakheperreseneb 73-83 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:50:56 +0100 Dear AELers, [I] A new section - 73b-80, theme: nobody listens to Kha! -, which IMO forms a unity, so I 'll post it as such. Arranged again in what I think are pairs of lines: 73b) xA.(y.)t pw gr r sDm.w.t 74) ih(.y) pw wSb n xm "It is illness to be silent about things heard, (and) it is woe to answer to an ignorant person." comments: -- I think _xA.y.t_ "disease" (Faulkner p183, written with double reed instead of the man like in our text); why "death", Judith? -- sDm.t "das Gehoerte" (HWB794) "that what is heard"; here plural. -- Notice the curl after _pw_ (so _wSb_ not _Sbi_), and the negating arms are det. (so _xm_ not _xmn_) -- What he seems to mean is that not speaking out against the observed national misery is painfull, but speaking out is also painfull as nobody understands his concerns anyway. 75) xsf xni Hr sxpr rqw 76) n Ssp ib m-mAa.t "To reprove speech brings about enmity: the heart does not accept in truth. comments: -- 75-78 are an explanation of lines 73b/74, why speeking against the ignorant brings misery: his fellow men would just grow hostile to his not agreeing with them, while their hearts are hardened. -- _xni_ has both the det. of "to seat oneself, to stand still" (legs) and "speach" (hand to mouth). The latter must be meant. (no =i here) -- if there's no error in the text (Aa15 for Aa11) then it is m-mAa.t "truly", "in truth"; if there's an error , then it is just "The heart does not accept Maat". 77) n wxd=tw smi n md.t 78) mri s nb Tsi=f "One does not endure the acknowledging of a problem, everyone (only) loves his (own) verdict." comments: -- although 77 could form a pair with 76 (start with _n_), note that both 77/78 end on a word dealing with speaking, and are a logical whole: nobody wants to hear another's opinion/criticism, everybody just wants to follow his own judgement (or as the saying goes: most rather stick to their own road to Hell than accept another's road to Heaven). -- Faulkner p.227 has "current news(?)" for _smi n mdt_ , which I find not appealing at all; I think the meaning "criticism, reproach" or "problem" of _mdwt_ (HWB p.379) clearly should be picked -- the order is surely to be restored into: _s nb_ "everyone" 79) bw-nb grg Hr XAbb 80) bT(.w) mt.y md.t "Everybody builds on (a foundation of) crookedness, (and) straightforwardness of speech (is) abandoned." comments: -- nice pair of chiastic lines with crooked/curled (_XAb_) vs straight/regular/exact (_mt.y_). -- the two T14 sticks are facing the wrong way. -- the last line is an ascriptive sentence (predicate plus noun; also a participle can be predicate in such lines); _mt.y_ must IMO be a noun (Faulkner p120) (so not: "exact words", see order of words) [II] And here a new sections/themes starts: theme: dialogue with the heart resumed, 81-83 (end of text) 81) Dd=i n=k ib=i wSb=k n=i 82a) n gr.n ib pH(.w) "I speak to you, my heart, that you may answer to me, an afflicted [or: addressed] heart usually is not silent." comments: -- obvious pair (dialogue with the heart resumed; new section) -- no _nb_ basket (but _=k_ basket); wrong man det. here I feel; prospective SDm=f. -- _pH_ must be participle as adjective; _pH_ in the sense of "hit, attack" (cf Faulkner p92), or perhaps "als Ohrenzeuge zugegen sein" (HWB p288). -- _n_ + sDm.n=f means "not has he ever heard" = "he usually does not hear" or "he never hears" (generalisaton). 82b) m=k Xr.t bAk mi nb 83) aSA.t wdn Hr=k "Behold! the share of the servant (is) like the master('s): a multitude of weighing heavy upon you!" -- Note the same construction as in (66) _Xr.t sf im mi pA-hrw_, so I must return to my original translation there (vs the one I gave later): "the needs of yesterday there (are) like today('s)", apparantly no resumption of _Xr.t_ is needed with _mi_? Line 82b seems like a proverb ("like master like servant"), here applied to the heart (the servant, like Judith suggested). -- Like in line 71 an error in _wdn_ ( U28 must be U32) -- _wdn_ = to be heavy, to be pressing. Can't be a construction like in line 71. And I could not think of anything that explains the t in _aSA.t_ if it was an adjective or adverb. Hmm? Apparantly it is an abstract noun (such abstract collectives often have .t plus plural strokes), although it is not in any dictionary (only for "host" of people, HWB p160). In this way 83b defines the "share" of the previous line (their share is a heap of sorrows). _wdn_ can't be participle "that weighs" (would be female), so must be infinitive used as substantive? Even the last line of this text is tricky :o kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 70-73 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:51:07 +0100 Dear Jenny, >>70) r wxd.w - Rather than r+infinitive (to suffer) I had this as preposition (to) and noun (pain, suffering). Compare with Line 64, dwA=tw r=s m Xr.t hrw - 'One rises to it daily.' Perhaps both are possible. **Yes, the curl would speak for the noun, but the scroll and the missing plural strokes for the verb, I felt, so it was flipping a coin ;) I though the verb was also more dramatic ("wake up to suffer" vs "wake up to pain") >>71) This looks like an adjectival sentence, with the adjective, as predicate, coming first in the sentence, but only one predicate adjective is allowed. And as the predicate adjective takes the simplest form, the Aw.w must be something else. Perhaps adverbial but would it come at the beginning of the sentence?<< **Brunner (p. 43) says that adverbs can also come at the beginning of a verbal sentence. Note I took _wdn_ as verb ("to weigh heavy"), and not as adjective "heavy". Also the .w made me take _Aw.w_ to be an adverb. To add a new bit, which belongs contents-wise to this part (before a new theme begins): 72) nn pH.t.y n mAr.w m-a r=f 73a) m-a wsr-a r=f "There is no strength for th(os)e downtrodden by it, because of the strong grasp of it. " comment: -- I think 72/73a would be a pair (both ending on _r=f_) as are 73b/74 (both starting with _pw_ construction). Basically a new section/thought obviously(?) arises in 73b-80: about nobody listening to the prophet of doom. -- _m-a_ "by (the hand of)" "caused by", "in the hand of" etc. So I think the first _m-a_ indicates that the downtrodden (those made miserable and wretched) are in that position because of it, and cannot escape because of (second _m-a_) the power of it (they are in its fist, lit. its "being strong of arm"). I'm not totally sure about the use of the particle _(i)r=f_ here, any ideas? (why not: _m-a=f_ or _m-a ir.y_ ?) "It" must refer to the daily suffering in line 70-71 - making him depressed and overwhelming him without escape. (Told you he was clinically depressed!) kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 03:53:52 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Cleary Subject: Re: AEL Winglyph Queries To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear List, Well, someone made the mistake of writing that dumb questions were permitted. Here goes. I have had Winglyph since 1997 and have not tried to use it much till now. I have moved so don't even know if I still have all the original documentation that they sent when I bought it. I do know that I have encountered a couple of problems with it recently: 1. (as Ogden and Stephen can testify by their faithful attempts at addressing) I have tried to use the Coptic character set in Winglyph, but have have not been able to get the "shin" (letter for "sh" sound) to function. I thought I had the problem licked with Ogden's help by copying the letter from Microsoft Word into Winglyph which looked OK until I found that the file does not save the character as shin but rather as an umlauted capital "u". I thought I might be able to get around this problem by copying my work as it says in the manual over to clipboard and then to Word, thus... 2. The copied file into Word is all messed up. It only shows the hieroglyphs and none of the rest of the text and those with several continuous vertical lines running down the length of the screen (I haven't tried printing this because I figure that it will look the same). Now, my normal print (and screen) for Winglyph is fine. I have no problems elsewhere. The only thing I thought might be the problem is the compatibility of software. I have Windows 98 and Word for Office 97. Could it be that my Winglyph is to old? If so, does anyone know of any patches or updates available for Winglyph? I'd appreciate any help. Thanks. Tim UAE University ============================================================================== From: "djed" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Winglyph Queries Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:30:37 +0100 Hello Anne, There are no special requirements to run Winglyph. It worked wonderfully on my old PC (486 processor and only 8Mo of memory). I suppose that a good inkjet printer will produce acceptable documents. A cheap laser printer like Cannon LBP-660 gives high-quality results. Download the demo version from the CCER website : it's fast (Winglyph is a small-size program) and easy. Since a new thread seems to be opened, regarding Winglyph and hieroglyphic word-processors, may I take the opportunity to ask if somebody knows about transliteration fonts available on the net. The Winglyph transliteration font is a bit limited : I do miss plain, bold, and bold-italic styles, and certain punctuation marks. Thank you Philippe ============================================================================== From: "Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL Winglyph Queries Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:44:14 +0100 Dear Anne, You asked: > Further to the Winglyph query, could someone please advise me of > the minimum > computer memory requirements to run this program? What is the minimum > printer requirement? Does an inkjet printer produce an acceptable result? I quote from the web site of the CCER (www.ccer.nl): "Glyph for Windows requires an IBM-compatible PC with a 80386, 80486 or Pentium processor, having at least 3 MegaBytes RAM memory and a Hard Disk, and running Microsoft Windows 3.1 or higher. The use of a mouse is highly recommended. Glyph prints on all printers with graphic capabilities supported by Windows' Printmanager. When installed, the program occupies 2.3 MegaBytes Hard Disk space." [end of quote] To summarize: unless your computer is an archaeological artefact dating from the time of the Crusades, it will be able to run (the current version 1.2 of) Glyph for Windows smoothly, fast and in a reliable way. About the printer's requirements: if your printer works under Windows, Winglyph will turn it into an Ancient Egyptian scribe in seconds... Of course, having a state-of-the-art color laserprinter will instantly promote you to the function of personal scribe of the pharaoh, but a well-kept inkjet will also do fine (you can always work your way up later on...). Anyway, all information on Winglyph (short for "Glyph for Windows") is to be found on www.ccer.nl: click on "CCER Products" and look for "Glyph for Windows". You can even download a try-out version for free. > Finally, is there an Australian distributer of Winglyph? I don't think so. You can always order online at the same website I mentioned before. Best wishes, Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues udjat@skynet.be Udjat, Eye in the Sky ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:30:24 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: judith sebesta Subject: RE: AEL Khakheperreseneb 73-83 <<<<-- I think _xA.y.t_ "disease" (Faulkner p183, written with double reed instead of the man like in our text); why "death", Judith?>>>> The short answer: the mistake of a neophyte The long answer: Faulkner notes that the writing can stand alternatively for XAt. Neither the entries for disease or death in Faulkner have the man, so the man glyph couldn't be the deciding factor. Given K's negativity, I think it would "kill" him to be silent! Judith Sebesta, Chair Dept. of History 414 East Clark St. U of South Dakota Vermillion SD 57069 FAX: 605-677-5568 Phone: 605-677-5218 e-mail: jsebesta@usd.edu ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:59:00 -0000 Subject: AEL Exercise 1 Hi, How is everyone doing with this exercise? If you have attempted it and have any questions, now's the time to ask! I'm going to give the answer to just the first sentence of exercise 1 today. 1. jw=j Hr m33=f I (a god) am seeing him. Notice that the glyph for "I" is the one that is used when the "person" speaking is a god. Can everyone see how I've arrived at this translation? Now, who is willing to post their translation of the remaining sentences? Mark Wilson P.S. Exercise 1 is available at http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/exercises/exercise1.html ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:23:59 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Cleary Subject: Re: AEL Odd symbol To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Charley, Are you talking about the sun with three descending rays? N8 on the Winglyph chart may be what you are looking for. Hope that helps. Tim --- charley rhodes wrote: > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for > AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply > privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Well, as a beginner who has been lurking and reading > the interesting > discussions. Now I have a question for some of the > experts. I have come > across a symbol (glyph) that I can't seem to find in > the symbol lists from > Gardiner, or Allen. It looks like a three-legged > pie, that is a pie symbol > with a middle third leg. I have now seen it on > several different > inscriptions. I thought at first that it might have > been the "pool" symbol > (S) followed by the plural symbol, but examining the > glyph on several > inscriptions shows that it looks more like a > three-legged pie. Any ideas??? > > c.rhodes > ============================================================================== From: Richard Carter To: "AEgyptian (E-mail)" Subject: AEL Exercise 1 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:51:23 -0700 Hi, OK, I'll accept Mark's challenge and try my hand at this exercise. Here goes: 1. jw=j Hr m33=f "I (a god) am seeing him." Just repeating..... 2. jw=T r s-nm=sn "You (fem.) will be feeding them." 3. mk sw r jTj.t=n "Look, he will be taking us." 4. jw=s Hr sDm=j "She is hearing me (fem.)." 5. mk wj r sDm=f "Look, I will be hearing him." Anxiously awaiting my grade, Dick Carter ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Khakheperreseneb Line 79-80 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:04:53 +0100 Hi Ben, I think you are correct about line 79-80: 79-80 must be equative sentences with _grg_ and _bT_ *both* as active participles (not only _grg_ like I had): 79) bw-nb grg Hr XAbb 80) bT mt.y md.t lit. "Everybody (is) one who builds on (a foundation of) crookedness, (and) one who abandons straightforwardness of speech." or: "Everyone (is) a builder... and an abandoner..." more freely: "Everyone builds...and abandons..." ----- Now all four online partakers have put their first cards on the table concerning 72-76: 72-73a - on this one we all pretty much disagree, so perhaps to be threated seperately another time. 73b, 74 - on these ones we all pretty much agree 75 - I think we will agree on _xsf_ vs _HDi_ [other snake and club], and about not having scales, but even then we disagree on the rest; to be threated seperately. 76 - on this one we all agree again. So 72/73a and 75 could do with a closer look. Who opens the bidding? :o Aayko ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:19:24 +0100 From: Thomas Boraud To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Ani scroll hi every body, I learn since about 1 year and have some difficulties to translate the 2 last collumns of the chap. XXX of the book of the deads (the version of the papyrus of Ani page 3 I believe). I read: m Dd(w) grg.(t) r=i r-gs nTr nfr-wy nfr sDm=k I translate: "do not tell lies against me in front of the god. It's good to hear you (telling) good" Is it right? I am not sure of the grammatical construction for the last part. Thanx for your help. -- Thomas Boraud E-mail: tboraud@club-internet.fr thomas.boraud@umr5543.u-bordeaux2.fr ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:57:56 -0500 From: "Oscar H. Blayton" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 1 I agree with Dick on Exercise I, and Here is my effort on Exercise II 1. mk wj Hr jnj.t=Tn 2. jw=n Hr s-nm=s 3. jw=sn r jTj.t=st 4. mk sy Hr m33=f 5. mk Tn r mrj.t=j 6. jw=tw Hr jnj.t=sn 7. jw=sn Hr s-nm=n 8. jw=f r m33=sw 9. mk n Hr sDm=T 10. mk st Hr mrj.t=k Oscar Blayton ============================= Richard Carter wrote: > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi, > > OK, I'll accept Mark's challenge and try my hand at this exercise. Here > goes: > > 1. jw=j Hr m33=f "I (a god) am seeing him." Just repeating..... > > 2. jw=T r s-nm=sn "You (fem.) will be feeding them." > > 3. mk sw r jTj.t=n "Look, he will be taking us." > > 4. jw=s Hr sDm=j "She is hearing me (fem.)." > > 5. mk wj r sDm=f "Look, I will be hearing him." > > Anxiously awaiting my grade, Dick Carter ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL New paintings Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:45:12 PST Greetings All, Just a short note to let you know that there are two new Egyptian paintings on my website. The Ished Tree Dancing Girls m Htp Jenny Carrington jennycarrington@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Nook/7916/ArtWorks.html The limits of art are not reached, There is no artist equipped with his mastery. ..Ptahhotep ********************************************* ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 77-83 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:56:36 PST I'll just finish off my last lines before I take another look at Lines 72-76. 77) n wxd.w tw smi n mdt One cannot endure a report of the matter. I agree that Faulkner's suggestion of 'current news' for 'smi n mdt' doesn't quite fit the context. I think it needs to relate more to the following line. It is not just the news itelf that cannot be endured, but what other people say about it. 78) mr nb s Ts=f All a man loves is his (own) speech. For this to work mr would have to be mrr.t - imperfective relative form. So Aayko's restored order _s nb_ 'everyone' (or 'each man') makes more sense. So:- mr s nb Ts=f Each man loves his (own) speech. 79) bw-nb grg Hr Xabb Everyone puts their trust in crookedness. (Faulkner p. 291. - grg Hr, 'put one's trust', Adm.p.107) 80) bT mty md.t Straightforward talk is abondoned. 81) Dd=i n=k ib=i wSb=k n=i I speak to you, my heart, that you may answer to me. 82) n gr n ib pH Silence is not for a heart that is reached. m=k Xr.t bAk mi nb Behold, the servant's share/duty is like the master's. ie. The heart has as much responsibility as the man. 83) aSA.t wdn Hr=k Much weighs upon you. m Htp Jenny Carrington ============================================================================== From: "Kymm Nelsen" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL Winglyph Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:45:36 -0800 Thanks for the tips, Stephen. I really do enjoy reading all of the questions that come up here, although they are often over my head. I'll look into getting the book you mentioned and continue to study with y'all. How about another dumb question? :) When you speak of "email format" for the glyphs, what do you mean? I see how they appear here (i.e. "jw=s HR mrj.t")...but how does this process work? When you are doing your translations on paper, does it look more like the images on the Exercise 1? (see...now you've opened a can of dumb-question-worms!) Kymm ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:32:04 -0800 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Ani scroll Thomas Boraud wrote: > I learn since about 1 year and have some difficulties to translate the 2 last > collumns of the chap. XXX of the book of the deads (the version of the papyrus of > Ani page 3 I believe). This is on Plate III of the Papyrus of Ani - the plates being photographs of sections of the papyrus of arbitrary length, but covering the whole of it in sequence from left to right. These were originally published by Budge. > I read: m Dd(w) grg.(t) r=i r-gs nTr nfr-wy nfr sDm=k > > I translate: "do not tell lies against me in front of the god. It's good to hear you > (telling) good" > > Is it right? I am not sure of the grammatical construction for the last part. Books of the dead are notoriously difficult to work with for translation. The ancient Egyptians themselves did not really understand a lot of what was in them. There are many variations between texts even from the same general period, and it is hard to know which are real modifications and which are simply the result of careless copying (not necessarily the copyist writing the scroll - it might already have been miscopied onto the material he was working from). m Dd grg r=i r gs nTr - this is fairly clear and means pretty much what you have given, except that "r gs" is literally "at the side of" and so might better be translated "near." The last part "nfr sDm=k" is probably carried over from the standard close for a letter or petition (an alternative when addressing a superior is "nfr sDm nb=i, anx (w)DA s(nb)" and means something like "It is good if you hear (my petition)." Grammatically, I analyse this phrase as a [ADJECTIVE] - [NOUN] type of sentence (like "nfr pr" The house is good) only with an embedded sentence - sDm=k "may you hear" - acting as the noun. Literally "'May you hear' is good." This leaves us with the problem of where "nfr wy" fits in. My own guess is that it should be simply "nfr" and goes with "nTr" - "the good god." The papyrus of Hunefer gives "m bAH nTr aA nb imntt" in place of this whole passage. This is followed by the wish "di.tw t.w m pr t.w qb m pr qb" (May one give bread in the house of bread, refreshment in the house of refreshment). This gives at least a hint that the meaning in the papyrus of Ani is that the nfr.wy belongs with nTr. However see Budge's footnote on p.12 of _The Egyptian Book of the Dead: (The Papyrus of Ani) Egyptian Text, Transliteration and Translation_ which quotes from some later versions. I hope this helps and hasn't just added to the confusion! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:34:47 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Abey Subject: Re: AEL Ani scroll +++++++Since Budge has been seen as being passe in some cases and incorrect in others, not to mention off of the shelves in stores that focus on the more recent works in Egyptology, what would some of the best translations of Coming Forth By Day -Ani Scroll- be at this time? I notice that most people are referring to his translation of "The scroll" on this thread. em http://, Amir Bey ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Ani scroll Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:57:37 +0100 Hi Thomas, >I learn since about 1 year and have some difficulties to translate the 2 last collumns of the chap. XXX of the book of the deads (the version of the papyrus of Ani page 3 I believe).< **yes, plate 3. I've the Von Dassow edition (no transcription). What are you using? Budge? Does this mean you did the whole ch.30B plus the introductory hymns already?? :) >I read: m Dd(w) grg.(t) r=i r-gs nTr nfr-wy nfr sDm=k< The glyphs I would read the same: m Dd(.w) grg r=i r-gs nTr nfr.wy nfr sDm=k >I translate: "do not tell lies against me in front of the god. It's good to hear you (telling) good"< I would have: "Do not tell a lie about me in the presence of the god. Oh how good (is) the goodness of your listening!" So: I ask you this - and it is mighty good if you comply. Dd r = to say to/about I too had some problems with the second nfr, but as the exclamation (of praise) on .wy is always predicate, I thought + . I'm not overly confident about it though. kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:17:12 -0500 (EST) From: Michelle Callahan To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL hiya Well i figured i would join the conversation and not lurk. Well i was wondering if you have any tips for rembering. So far i have the 1-consonaugtdown pat but the others i def. need help I am open to any suggestions are greatly appreicted Michelle Callahan avereeze@mail.com ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 02:46:54 +0100 From: Thomas Boraud To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Ani scroll > Hi, Aayko, Thanx for your help (and also to Staphen and Abbey) you said Does this mean you did the whole ch.30B plus the introductory hymnsalready?? :) > I am so a newbye that I dont know exacly what part of the ch XXX I have already > translate. I use just a handmade version given by our teacher (I learn it on after > diner lesson every tuesday, we are a little group of about a dozen). He gave us three > versions of this chapter to translate in order to compare: The Ani version, the > Hounefer version and another one from a heart bettle (I am not sure of the translation > in english!). I have translate this ch. from "Dd=f ib=i....". It's corespond to twelve > column. I dont know how long is it. But what is certain now is that I feel more > confident about translation and I plan to buy the scroll of the dead. Is there a better > version than the Budge in paperback? best regards, -- Thomas Boraud E-mail: tboraud@club-internet.fr ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:22:44 -0800 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re:More problems santiago gonzalez wrote: > Still, I find the separation of sentences quite arbitrary or obscure. So > when I think Im dealing with a subordinate clause I find later Is a > separate (although connected) sentence. For example, in the first sentence: > > > 1) iw ir.n n.i Hm.f xt nbt nfrt rx.n.f wi m imi-r kat(w) iqr r imi-r > >kat(w) nb n Ta. > Should it be: His majesty made for me all sorts of good things at learning > I was the best project supervisor among the project suprvisors in this > land. > Or should it be two separate sentences? > I tihnk ther might be a rule or else egyptians wrote in a very ambiguous > fashion. > I wish there was an all-inclusive, simple answer to this. In the sentence you give here, the main clause starts with "iw" whereas subordinate clauses don't. However, just to complicate the issue, in extended passages of text you may find that other main clauses following one with "iw" don't have it, because they are considered some sort of continuation of the first one. There is a similar sort of thing in Biblical Hebrew where the exact nature of a subordinate clause was left unspecified; however continuing sentences were strug together with a special form of "and." For your purposes, at the moment, if a sentence begins with "iw" and contains verbs after the main one which are not introduced by "iw" they are the start of a subordinate clause. Please note that a subordinate clause can start with something like "iw=f" since the function of the "iw" there is simply to give something for the suffix pronoun to attach to. Now you COULD translate that sentence as two separate sentences: "His Majesty did all kinds of good things for me. He knew I was the best public works overseer in the land." However, that seems rather choppy in English, so we would probably make the second part a subordinate clause: "his Majesty did all kinds of good things for me because he knew I was the best public works overseer in the land." Note however that elementary school students do tend to write things in the form of separate simple sentences, with little or no use of subordinate clauses, and the meaning is still reasonably clear. Not all languages are as insistent as English on having explicit conjunctions to introduce clauses. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:20:36 -0800 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Ani scroll Abey wrote: > Since Budge has been seen as being passe in some cases and incorrect > in others, not to mention off of the shelves in stores that focus on the > more recent works in Egyptology, what would some of the best translations > of Coming Forth By Day -Ani Scroll- be at this time? I notice that most > people are referring to his translation of "The scroll" on this thread. Actually I haven't been referring to Budge's *translation* - I'm quite capable of making my own mistakes ;-) As far as I know, the only publication of the papyrus of Ani is the plates which Budge originally published - I believe he incidentally essentially destroyed the papyrus by pasting the sections of unrolled papyrus to boards, and the paste ruined the scroll. In which case, there is not going to be any other publication. There is a newer edition, including the plates, which is available quite cheaply (but not as cheaply as Budge) in paperback: The Egyptian Book of the Dead (Papyrus of Ani): The Book of Going Forth By Day by Ogden Goelet (Editor), Eva Von Dassow, Raymond O. Faulkner (Translator), James Wasserman (Designer) It is US$19.96 from amazon.com. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:25:13 -0500 (EST) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Ogden Goelet Subject: AEL "Translations" of the Ani BD Dear Listers, Both modesty and accuracy force me to point out that the volume to which I contributed a few chapter translation and the commentary is _not_ a translation of the Ani BD -- indeed, no such thing really exists. (The primary translator, incidentally, was Faulkner.) In a few cases, I attempted to follow the Ani text in making my translations, but the fact of the matter is that despite its beauty, the text of the Ani BD is not too accurate. Then again, no one papyrus has proven exceptionately more accurate than the others. For the most part, the language of the BD was almost as far removed from the language of the contemporary Egyptian scribe of the New Kingdom as the speech of Shakespeare, or better yet, the speech of Chaucer might be to a contemporary American. Furthermore, the content of the BD material was, to put it mildly, rather obscure, even to the men who made their living creating such scrolls in funerary workshops. Mistakes and misinterpretations abounded when these documents were copied out. Consequently, what all those today who attempt at translations of the BD end up doing is creating an "ideal text" composed of several different sources. We pick and choose from among the parallels until we have created an artificial ideal which seems to make good sense (to us). In any case, I would _strongly_ advise those interested in learning Ancient Egypt _NOT_ to use the BD as the basis for learning Egyptian. As an instructional text it is about as counter-productive as using some of the more parodistic and convoluted passages of Joyce's _Ulysses_ or _Finnegan's Wake_ for beginners in English. Ogden Goelet ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:14:18 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: judith sebesta Subject: Re: AEL Re:More problems Subordination was also missing from very early Latin (as were prepositions). I suspect that lack of subordination is more on the order of a general phenomenon than something peculiar to ancient Egyptian. Perhaps someone more conversant with linguistic theory of language development would care to comment? I wonder, though, just how one made clear the logical connection between two independent sentences. It will make a difference whether one supplies the conjunction "because" rather than "even though" or "if". JLS >Note however that elementary school students do tend to write things in the >form of separate simple sentences, with little or no use of subordinate >clauses, and the meaning is still reasonably clear. Not all languages are as >insistent as English on having explicit conjunctions to introduce clauses. > >-- >Stephen Fryer >Lund Computer Services > >************************************************** >The more answers I find, the more questions I have >************************************************** Judith Sebesta, Chair Dept. of History 414 East Clark St. U of South Dakota Vermillion SD 57069 FAX: 605-677-5568 Phone: 605-677-5218 e-mail: jsebesta@usd.edu ============================================================================== From: "santiago gonzalez" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: Budges book Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:14:59 ART First thanks to Stephen for his help. I have come about a book called "An egyptian hierogliphic reading book for begginres" by Wallis Budge. It happens to bring me some doubts: 1)it was published in 1886, so , is it still valid? 2)the transliterations are very weird, for he uses greek letters, and adds vocals were it suits him. 3)in the preface it says that the texts in it are from all periods. If Im sudying middle egyptian, are they all readable? Appart from this doubts, the main one is: I am studying with Hochs grammar, when is it meeded for me to start looking in other texts other htan the examples provided by the book? Thanks: Santiago ============================================================================== From: zhwangx-23@webtv.net (Phillip Bonner) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:09:12 -0500 (EST) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk (Ancient Egyptian Language List) Subject: Re: AEL Re:More problems The same phenomenon also exists with Hebrew and, especially, Arabic. Subordinate clauses in Arabic are usually connected with a mere "wa", which means "and". As for Budge's transliteration being "weird", I think the one we use in this group is more weird. How do you pronounce something like Pa32A5=grg Ra? ? It's true that linguists aren't entirely certain how ancient Egyptian was pronounced, and the pronunciation did change over time, but still, we certainly could do better than we are. Loprieno's phonetic system is excellent. It can be found in his book Ancient Egyptian. Why the concentration on Middle Egyptian? I find the period of Khufu (Cheops) more interesting. It is interesting that Loprieno says that the word for land was pronounced in Old Kingdom times like a cognate of the Latin word terra. He transliterates the word as /taR/. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:02:37 -0800 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re: Budges book santiago gonzalez wrote: > I have come about a book called "An egyptian hierogliphic reading book for > begginres" by Wallis Budge. > It happens to bring me some doubts: > 1)it was published in 1886, so , is it still valid? The original texts are still valid. The only warning is that in those texts which are transcribed from hieratic into hieroglyphic characters, Budge may, for no reason I can see, use a differently formed sign (but essentially the same sign) for the same hieratic character, or he may arbitrarily use a combination sign for two signs in hieratic. The text is still readable, but implies variations in the original hieratic that do not exist. > 2)the transliterations are very weird, for he uses greek letters, and adds > vocals were it suits him. Ignore the transliterations - he uses a system that was pretty much outmoded even when he wrote the book. (Ignore the translations too - he sometimes mistranslates things that I know he knew how to translate correctly.) > 3)in the preface it says that the texts in it are from all periods. If Im > sudying middle egyptian, are they all readable? The ones I can say are in reasonably good Middle Egyptian are 8, 9, 16, and 17. There are a number I am not sure of as there is no information provided on the periods. Definitely Late Egyptian are: 1, 2, 13, 18, and 20. #15 is Ptolemaic, and #7 is Old Egyptian. > Appart from this doubts, the main one is: I am studying with Hochs grammar, > when is it meeded for me to start looking in other texts other htan the > examples provided by the book? You could go throught the entire book without NEEDING to look at any other texts. If they are available, you could start trying them any time, but probably leave that until you get half way throught the book. A book I think can be a valuable supplement, is _How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyhs_ by Collier & Manley, as it puts the texts and usages into some sort of context, which might make it easier to understand what they were trying to say. You will find that it uses somewhat different terminology, which in the case of what they refer to as the "future" is incorrect. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Christopher Jacobs" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Re: Budges book Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 00:42:49 -0600 -----Original Message----- From: santiago gonzalez >I have come about a book called "An egyptian hierogliphic reading book for >begginres" by Wallis Budge. >It happens to bring me some doubts: >1)it was published in 1886, so , is it still valid? >2)the transliterations are very weird, for he uses greek letters, and adds >vocals were it suits him. >3)in the preface it says that the texts in it are from all periods. If Im >sudying middle egyptian, are they all readable? > ---------------------- I have the 1993 Dover Books reprint of the 1896 Budge edition, and it can be quite useful for a beginner, especially because of the vocabulary in the back of the book. I started with the selection on "The Spoliation of the Tombs" (page 306), looking up every word I didn't know, and after several pages I could read much of the text on sight (largely due, of course, to the repetitive bureaucratic formulaic style used and certain frequently recurring words). The transliterations in my copy are in italic Roman-style letters with occasional diacritical marks, not in Greek characters. Budge provides translations (in the front of the book) to only eight of the twenty selections, and this is not one of them, although it is one of the most interesting. --Christopher Jacobs http://www.und.nodak.edu/instruct/cjacobs/Jacobs.htm ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Ani scroll Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 14:46:53 +0100 Publications of the Ani version of the Book of the Dead (= Papyrus Ani = BM10.470): Le Page Renouf, Facsimile of the Papyrus of Ani in the British Museum, The Book of the Dead, London, 1890 E.A. Wallis Budge, The Egyptian Book of the Dead (The Papyrus of Ani), London, 1895 [reprinted many times, for example Dover, New York, 1975. ISBN: 0486-21866-X - price: USD 11.95] Egyptian typeset text, transliteration, and translation. Budge used his own system of transliteration, and his translation is rather unreliable in many cases. E.A. Wallis Budge, The Papyrus of Ani. A Reproduction in Facsimile with Hieroglyphic Transcript, Translation and Introduction, 2 vols., London, 1913. 37 color foldout plates [see below] - Prices of antiquarian copies begin with USD 300, so you may find the 1994 edition below a better choice. There is a new facsimile edition Papyrus Ani. British Museum 10.470, Graz, 1978 (Codices selecti, vol. LXII). ISBN 3-201-01048-0 - price: USD 637 It consists of 37 segments in the original format (38 x 70 cm) - resulting in a total length of 24 m! - in a box. German commentary (not translation) by E. Dondelinger. Description at the end of http://www.balogh.com/austria/adeva3.html Egyptian Book of the Dead. The Book of Coming Forth by Day. Being the Papyrus of Ani (Royal Scribe of the Divine Offerings), San Francisco, 1994. ISBN: 0-8118-0767-3 - price: pbk USD 24.95 Translated by Raymond O. Faulkner, with additional translations and a commentary by O. Goelet, jr. http://www.bookofdead.com/ Website of "The Egyptian Book of the Dead: The Papyrus of Ani", Published in the U.S. by Chronicle Books, San Francisco, 1994 - See also http://www.digitalscribe.com/bookdead/ulcbook.htm Reviews: http://www.chronbooks.com/Adult/Titles/8118/07/07673/07673r.html Online translations of Ani: http://www.bardo.org/ani/index.html "The primary sources used were two editions of E. A. Wallis Budge's translation of Ani's papyrus ... but I have tried, for the most part, to make this my own translation." Translation by E. A. Wallis Budge http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/ani.htm All 37 plates of the Budge edition http://www.noxtempli.com/Papyrus/ The Judgment of the Dead http://home.att.net/~titus-k/studio31/aniback.jpg Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Ani scroll Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:37:41 +0100 Stephen Fryer wrote about the phrase nfr.wy nfr sDm=k of BD Spell 30: > The last part "nfr sDm=k" is probably carried over from the standard close for a letter > or petition (an alternative when addressing a superior is "nfr sDm nb=i, anx (w)DA > s(nb)" and means something like "It is good if you hear (my petition)." Grammatically, > I analyse this phrase as a [ADJECTIVE] - [NOUN] type of sentence (like "nfr pr" The > house is good) only with an embedded sentence - sDm=k "may you hear" - acting as > the > noun. Literally "'May you hear' is good." > > This leaves us with the problem of where "nfr wy" fits in. My own guess is that it > should be simply "nfr" and goes with "nTr" - "the good god." I would propose an alternative to the nfr.wy part, namely as an exclamation: "The ending .wy ... is sometimes added to adjectival predicates in order to give them an exclamatory force." (Gardiner, EG, paragraph 49) This is also used in sentences with adjectival predicate (paragraph 137): "The adjective precedes the subject and is invariable in number and gender; it may be accompanied by the exclamatory ending .wy" In this case we may have as subject nfr, which may either a noun or an infinitive (which can be employed as a noun, paragraph 302). The sDm=k is a direct genetive to nfr and "may often be translated by the English gerund ('his hearing')" (paragraph 191). So we have nfr.wy nfr sDm=k "how beautiful is the beauty/the goodness of your hearing!" R.O. Faulkner, Book of the Dead, London, 1993, p. 28 translates: "it is indeed well that you should hear!" Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: "onurtusa baykal" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:01:00 GMT Hello I want to know how the name of pharaoh Isesi, from the 5th dynasty ,written. And I could only find this pharaoh in the the book called"exploring the world of pharoahs "by Chrisitne Hobson but noelse where want to know why others do not include him. thankfully otb ============================================================================== To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: techpubs@csolutions.net (The New Sage Group) Subject: Re: AEL Re:More problems Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:18:37 -0700 In S Fryer's attentive response to Gonzalez, one of the issues is WHICH clause is subordinate. The suggestion was that subordination is not marked overtly. In which case, it seems assumed that the FIRST clause is the matrix and the second clause is subordinated to it. My beginner's question is: Why not take the first clause as the subordinate one? In both the examples the first clause has some kind of syntactic marker, _iw_ , which I am tempted to see as a subordinating conjunction. If Egyptian is at all parallel to Arabic, the _iw_ may be something like the family of Arabic subordinators -- 'in, 'an, 'inna, etc. which as a group mean things like 'if', 'that', 'when', 'verily', etc. Under this view, the two examples might be translated roughly: (1) Because His Majesty saw (+me) all my good things, he knew (that) I was one of the best bosses in this land. (2) When (or if) a common man is found he speaks truly (with heart or truth). If this is way off, thanks for indicating why. mrs >santiago gonzalez wrote: > >> Sorry to disturb again, but I have found some problems. It seems that in >> certain sentences I cant find the exact relation between words and the >> results of my translations are quite incoherent. >> >> 1) iw ir.n n.i Hm.f xt nbt nfrt rx.n.f wi m imi-r kat(w) iqr r imi-r >>kat(w) nb n >> Ta. > >The structure of the main clause is: > iw ir.n n=i Hm.f xt nb.t nfr.t > verb ind.obj subject object > did for me His Majesty everything good > >In the subordinate clause (a circumstantial clause) rx.n=f is the past >tense of rx >"learn" and so means "know." The best translation of the verb might be >"because he >knew." > >There is no written "w" in kAt, and if you suspect an implied one it should go >BEFORE the "t," so kA(w)t. My own feeling is that it is actually a singular >collective noun, hence the plural strokes. The plural strokes are not a >"w" sound. > >"iqr r" is a comparison "more perfect than" or "better than." And note >that "nb" >can be translated into English as "any," "every," or even "all kinds of" >(the latter >possible in xt nb.t nfr.t. > >> this I read as: His majesty made me do all sorts of good things at learning >> I was the best project supervisor among the project suprvisors in this land. > >So you were fairly close - the main thing that was throwing you off was >recognizing >that "n=i" is the indirect object. Remember, when the indirect object is >a pronoun >it comes before the subject. Also remember that the Egyptians didn't usually >express the connection between clauses explicitly, and so we have to >supply some >sort of cunjunction in English (or other European language) because our >languages >insist on explicit expression of these relationships. You will find that >once you >have read the first part of Chapter 5 on word order that some of these >problems may >be cleared up - although the points are mentioned individually earlier, >this section >synthesizes them into a set of (I think) clear diagrams. > >> 2) iw gmi nDs Dd.f m ib mAa. > >Main clause: iw gm nDs >We must either understand an unexpressed first person subject (iw gm=i >nDs) or treat >it as a passive with nDs as the subject. So the translation could be >either "I find >a common man" or "A common man is found." > >Subordinate clause: Dd=f m ib mAa >The phrase "m ib mAa" literally "in a true mind" but probably better >translated in >English as "truly" or "honestly." Notice that this type of construction >with "ib" >is very similar to the origin of adverbs in the Romance languages - vera mente >(Latin) "in a true mind" = "truly" >So the translation would be "He speaks honestly." Since this sentence is >being used >as a subordinate clause we may translate it as "who speaks honestly," >although it >would be OK to understand it as two very short sentences with only an implied >connection, which is exactly the way the Egyptians seem to have approached >things. > >> Maybe Im taking a wrong approach to this sentences, and my questions are >> probably very basic. > >They will probably seem trivial to you in a while if you persevere, >however at your >stage it is quite understandable that you might find it a bit confusing - >after all >the word order is considerably different that English or the Romance languages. >Please don't appologize for asking such questions - that is actually the >sort of >thing that this list is here for (anything else that happens here is just >icing). >-- >Stephen Fryer >Lund Computer Services > >************************************************** >The more answers I find, the more questions I have >************************************************** ============================================================================== From: Steve Clark To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:08:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AEL Re: Email (Isesi) On 18 Dec, onurtusa baykal wrote: > Hello > I want to know how the name of pharaoh Isesi, from the 5th dynasty ,written. > And I could only find this pharaoh in the the book called"exploring the > world of pharoahs "by Chrisitne Hobson but noelse where want to know why > others do not include him. > thankfully > otb According to Peter Clayton's "Chronicle of the Pharaohs" Djedkare-Isesi (jzzj) was the eighth king of the 5th Dynasty. The remains of his pyramid are at Saqqara. Grimal mentions him and says his name occurs in the Turin canon. His name also occurs in the mastaba of Akhtihotep Ptahhotep, "Overseer of the pyramid town of Izezi". ============================================================================== From: "Dan Bicknell" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 1 and lots of questions Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:25:37 -0500 Hi all, I'm a little behind here, but I am working on the exercises. Also I am just beginning to study Ancient Egyptian,so I have quite a few very basic questions. For the most part I agree with Dick on Exercise I, but, for example where Dick translated >2. jw=T r s-nm=sn "You (fem.) will be feeding them." I got 2. jw=T r s-nm=sn "You (fem) will feed them" Is there a difference between 'will feed' and 'will be feeding'? I mostly agreed with Oscar on Exercise II. However on 6,7 & 9 he included 'Hr' in his sentence and I left it out. Maybe I don't completely understand the use of 'Hr'. It was mentioned in the exercise that Hr was a preposition meaning "upon". So would 10) "Look, it loves you", if written 'mk st Hr mrj.t=k' actually translate to "Look, it upon you loves" or maybe "Look, it has love upon you"? On problem 8, I had: jw=f r m33=f instead of jw=f r m33=sw I felt I did fairly well for my first attempt at transliteration and translation. However I am very confused about the method being used for transliteration! I won't have a book to work out of until after the first of the year, so I am just working from material on the web. I have several questions, hopefully someone can help me with these. Does the '=' used with the dependent pronouns just show that it is a suffix to a word? I notice that several hieroglyphs are similar phonetically (like h= reed shelter, h=twisted wick, h=placenta and h=animal's belly). Is there a guide to the correct transliteration of each of the hieroglyphs? I've noticed that the underscored letters are capitalized. What about biliterals and triliterals? Also what does the "." represent? Similarly, in some transliterations some characters seem to be ignored. For instance the symbol for plural (three dashes) , is ignored (for example in the dependent pronouns how do you dell the difference between it-singular and they/them-objects? both are 'st'?) and 'mk' = "Look/Behold" looks like it ought to transliterate as 'm'k' or 'mak'. On the AEL site, there is a "Hieroglyphic index to Faulkner's Dictionary". In this several signs are listed for each letter. Are these interchangeable? Is it correct to spell a word with different hieroglyphs as long as they are phonetically equivalent? I hope these questions aren't too basic. I did enjoy the exercise very much and look forward to more. Dan Bicknell ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:45:02 -0800 From: Ron Fellows To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Re: You may be refering to Nuiserre-Izi 2453-2422 or Djedkare-Isesi 2414-2375, both of the Fifth Dynasty and referenced in Hieroglyphs for Travelers, the new book available at http://www.theglyph.com/book.html or from barnesandnoble.com , Amazon.com , or Borders.com Ron onurtusa baykal wrote: > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hello > I want to know how the name of pharaoh Isesi, from the 5th dynasty ,written. > And I could only find this pharaoh in the the book called"exploring the > world of pharoahs "by Chrisitne Hobson but noelse where want to know why > others do not include him. > thankfully > otb ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:53:34 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Cleary Subject: AEL Re: Glyphs for Pharoah "Isesi" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List This is a good question and one which I would like answered too. I assume that this is the same pharoah as is mentioned in "The Instruction of Ptahhotep". If he is from the 5th dynasty, then is he Shepses-ka-Ra, aka Asa, in Budge's kings' list? and also, Neferefre i.e. dynasty 5, number 5 in the Winglyph kings' list? This is really confusing, because in Budge Nefer-ari-ka-Ra and Shepses-ka-Ra seem to be different, but in Winglyph's list they seem to be the same pharoah. Anyone have the answer? Tim UAE University ============================================================================== From: piscator@nwlink.com To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Re: Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 03:05:07 GMT On Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:01:00 GMT, you wrote: >See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in >the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Hello >I want to know how the name of pharaoh Isesi, from the 5th dynasty ,written. >And I could only find this pharaoh in the the book called"exploring the >world of pharoahs "by Chrisitne Hobson but noelse where want to know why >others do not include him. Isesi is also known as Djedkare and he reigned from 2414-2375. His cartouche is written with the "reed i " followed by two "bolt s's " one above the other then another "reed i". His tomb is a Saqqara pyramid. Peter A. Clayton includes this pharaoh in his book "Chronical of the Pharaohs" but gives very little information. Hope this helps Ken Purdy ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 01:25:20 -0600 (CST) From: "Jerome S. Colburn" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re:More problems On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Phillip Bonner wrote: > It's true that linguists aren't > entirely certain how ancient Egyptian > was pronounced, and the pronunciation > did change over time, but still, we certainly could do better than we > are. sDm, sDm! By way of introduction, I'm self-taught, working through Gardiner's EG and, being interested in the vowel problem, Vergote's Grammaire copte and Fecht's Wortakzent und Silbenstruktur (now 40 years old), as well as various other studies on Egyptian, Coptic, and Semitic. I don't completely agree with all Fecht's and Vergote's conclusions, but it seems as if their work has often been neglected (at least until recenty). That's why I'll talk about, e.g., Hashpeswe, Akhenyotne, and Harmah'eb instead of Hatshepsut, Akhenaten, and Haremhab. (In discussing the vowel problem, I'll be using 3, j, ` instead of A, i, a for consonants.) On the other hand... > Loprieno's phonetic system is excellent. > It can be found in his book Ancient Egyptian. That's one I haven't heard about. Something to put on the list for some future date... > Why the concentration on Middle Egyptian? Just because ME had a stable script, mostly. Jerome Colburn jscolbur@prairienet.org ============================================================================== From: "David" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:31:11 -0500 onurtusa, The pharoah Isesi of the 5th dynasty was one of the first pharoahs to use the prenomen and nomen combination. His nomen is Djedkare, and appears as such in most king lists published today. Hope that straightens that out. David Goodman ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 00:52:40 -0600 (CST) From: "Jerome S. Colburn" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Re: Isesi On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, onurtusa baykal wrote: > Hello > I want to know how the name of pharaoh Isesi, from the 5th dynasty ,written. > And I could only find this pharaoh in the the book called"exploring the > world of pharoahs "by Chrisitne Hobson but noelse where want to know why > others do not include him. He's next to last in the 5th dynasty, before Wenyes. (Gardiner renders the name as Azozi.) His prenomen is Dd-k3-r`, and his nomen is written (Budge, Book of Kings). In the Turin Canon, though, the name in his position is written (two Dd-pillars). Jerome Colburn jscolbur@prairienet.org ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:49:03 +0000 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Marc Line Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 1 and lots of questions In article <002001bf49d9$20b49660$40e64a3f@acer>, Dan Bicknell writes snip Hello Dan > On the AEL site, there is a "Hieroglyphic index to Faulkner's >Dictionary". In this several signs are listed for each letter. Since I'm the culprit, as it were, I'd better clarify the purpose and usage of the resource to which you refer. >Are these >interchangeable? Is it correct to spell a word with different hieroglyphs >as long as they are phonetically equivalent? The short answer is a definite no. The glyphs are grouped as they are in order to provide a shortcut into Faulkner's dictionary when looking up a word. You will notice that some of the glyphs appear in more than one section of the index. The index was created to help overcome a problem faced by novice translators such as myself: specifically, once a word has been isolated from a passage, where in the dictionary does one look in order to find the meaning? It's simple enough when the word begins with a glyph that has a commonly known phonetic value but for the many others, it could be rather time consuming. The solution was to go through the entire dictionary, section by section, noting all the initial glyphs in each section and making a table of the results. That table is what you see on the AEL site. I hope this clears up any confusion and now that I've explained it, I hope you will find the index as useful as I have and sometimes still do. Regards Marc Line ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 04:56:09 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Cleary Subject: Re: AEL Re: Isesi To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Jerome, Does this mean that this pharoah is different from the one mentioned in "The Instruction of Ptahhotep" (see http://members.aol.com/mwhealton/pthp1.htm, line 2)? How careful were scribes in not confusing the use of folded cloth (?)i.e. "s" and the cord i.e. "z" and also the use of a single instead of doubled letter? Tim UAE University ==============================================================================