From: Serge Rosmorduc Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 01:31:38 +0000 (GMT) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Khakheperreseneb Hello everyone, Jenny's translation is quite good. "ir.n", being most probably a relative form. However, the antecedent of relative forms tend to be definite, hence the translation should shift from "A collection of words, etc...", to "The collection of words, the gathering of sentences..." Another note "HHy n ib" : as always when "ib" appears in a sentence, one must remember that for the egyptian, it was also the seat of intellectual thought, and so this phrase might mean "intellectual research". For "Ddw n=f", Aayko is right about the translitteration. "Ddw n=f" is the standard way of saying "a.k.a" in egyptian. It's an imperfective passive participle, so it means "to who is said ....", which can be translated as "called ..." The different values of the perfective and imperfective participles are difficult to determine, but here the idea is most probably repetition. regards, Serge. ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:13:06 +0200 (MET DST) From: Mark-Jan Nederhof Subject: Re: AEL How to get started To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk > the only problem with > G[ardiner] is that he has no answers:((((((((((((((((( but there is a > site..(although I can't remember where at the moment) with the answers to > the first nine exercises..... This site is superseded by a site including all the exercises: http://www.dfki.de/~nederhof/EAL/Gardiner.html I still need to double-check for typos starting from exercise XXV, but I hold the preceding for pretty reliable now (although one can always argue, endlessly, about more elegant translations...). If you do find remaining errors, please let me know. Mark-Jan ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:33:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Benjamin A. Martin" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Khakheperreseneb Line 5-7 Hello everyone, O.K. Here's what I've got. Just a first go, so there's probably some real blunders. 5. Dd.f ha.n.i xnw xmmi He says I wished (for) the sayings of Xmmy. 6. Tsw Xppy (the) sentences of Xppy 7. m mdt mat tm mt as true words not wandering (???) Anyone know what/who Xmmy and Xppy are. My guess is that they're names, but I really don't know. Also, wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on line seven. Ben Martin ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 14:11:48 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AEL Khakheperreseneb Line 5-7 Mr Martin: They are not names, so you need to rethink what forms Xmmy and Xppy represent (i.e. what kind of words, what voice, etc.). Gerry Kadish Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: AEL AEL: What you were afraid to ask Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:46:08 +0100 Hi all, Over time I noticed offlist that there are two misconceptions around among some beginners (notably those who rely on AEL alone and do not have material at home), so perhaps good to address these: (1) codes [Q:] "I see you all using the MdC code, but also a lot of other strange signs. What glyphs are those ='s etc ????" [A:] a) some use _3_ for _A_ , _'_ for _a_, and _j_ for _i_ b) the =, the . and the _ _ are no glyphs, but a kind of 'punctuation' marks (not the right word, but you'll know what I mean). By convention, * the root of a word and any grammatical endings are seperated by a dot {.} * nouns and verbs are seperated from suffixes by two stripes {=}. * when quoting Egyptian words, underscores {_ _} are used in email instead of quotation marks, so as to avoid collision with the ayin (which some people render as _'_ instead of _a_) , and to let the Egyptian jump out better amidst English. Alternatively you could see _ _ as indicating in email text what would be cursive in normally printed text. Example: _Xrd.w=sn_ = "their children", _.w_ being plural ending, _=sn_ suffix pronoun. (2) AEL key [Q:] "Why does nobody stick to the key on the AEL page??? According to the key, "H" e.g. could mean one of 22 different glyphs that have the same phone." [A:] You are misreading Marc's key!; only the first one or two glyphs indicate the bare value (A, i, a etc), the following glyphs start with this value but add others to it (A, Aw, Ab, etc). So you must read the key as a dictionary (every word starting with "e", "eb", "ec" etc gets listed under "E" ), and likewise does every glyph _starting_ with _H_ gets listed under _H_ in this key. In fact, Marc's key is NOT a key for transliteration but a key to Faulkner's dictionary. Better get hold of Gardiner's Sign List quickly! kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "Rodney Keeble" To: "AELink" Subject: AEL Thank You List Members Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 16:31:02 +0100 Hi all Thank you to all list members who responded to my enquiry about Wilbur Smith's book, "The River God". I've almost completed the book and now I fully understand many of your comments. I marvelled at the multi-talented Taita and the profound influence he had upon the development of ancient Egypt. I couldn't quite understand why he wasn't crowned Pharaoh, there couldn't be anything more for him to achieve. At least that's what I thought, until they captured slaves from a small African village and Taita learnt to speak their language fluently in three weeks. I can't wait to get to the end and discover the remaining talents. It's been fun to read, but had I read it first I wouldn't have troubled you with my questions. Thank you once again, also for the AEList contributions you make which I enjoy so much. Perhaps I will one day feel confident enough to offer a contribution. Rod Keeble. ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk'" Subject: RE: AEL Khakheperreseneb (website: page 1, 'line' 4-10) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:32:34 +0100 ---------- Dd=f HA-n=i xn.w xmm.y(.w) Tz.w xpp.y.w m mdw.t mA.t tm.t swA(.w) Sw.t m wHmm.y.t nn Ts n sbi.w.t rA Dd.t n tp-aw.y.w "He says: Oh if I only had unknown utterances, and strange maxims, namely a new word not having passed by and being devoid of repetition, not a maxim of transmission (or) a saying spoken by predecessors." ------- The text was fairly tricky, I agree Ben. (good to see we get more partakers!) And don't trust my verb-forms too much.. HA-n=i literally "Oh would there be for me..."? Faulkner: HA = non-encl. partical "would that...!" Hannig: Ha = "oh if only..., oh would it be...." Ha n-i = "oh, had I...!" It is a particle for wishing. xmm.y - seeing the redupliction a perfect passive participle of xm ("to know not"): xmm.w/y (sometimes a .y can occure instead of w). Yes? xpp.y - Hannig (HWB) just gives it as adjective; I wonder though whether it could be a passive participle of the verb xpi "to travel", and hence "travelled" ->"outlandish"-> "strange" ?? tm is a negative auxiliary verb ("to omit to do") and is followed by the negative complement (on .w) of the verb it refers to. tm=f sDm.w <=> "he omits to hear" = "he hears not" etc I took it - like the following verbs Sw.t, Dd.t - as a perfect participle. Not sure there though. Faulkner gives _tm.t swA_ "words which have not occured before", but I wonder whether that only depends on this standard phrase; the rest of the meanings of swA are all "to pass", hence my option. Sw is not an adjective, but a verb "to be empty, to be devoid (of)" Don't know what to do with those plural strokes though. sbi.w.t "transmission" is my guess, not in the dictionary, as _sbi n_ can mean "(Worte) zutragen zu jemand" (HWB p683) Seeing the plural strokes only "burden" (HWB p884, Faulkner) came close; hence I thought a noun here: "words of transmission" i.e. "words handed down". But perhaps the plural strokes are to be ignore like with Sw, and is it likewise a participle? Serge wrote: >Another note "m HHy n ib":" HWB p.557 has _m HHy n ib_ "erfinderisch" (inventive, smart). hence my "with inquiring mind". kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "Alex.W.Craig" To: Subject: AEL Khakheperreseneb - part one comments Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:15:31 +0100 Listpeople, Aayko, Many thanks for your comments (and encouragement) ! **Good! As Jenny indicated - only the mdwt is not correct. And better avoid those ' ('iwnw. xpr'ra). You will have seen Jenny and I differ on the irin and Ddwnf. [A] collection [of] words [and] gathered utterances sought [in a] search of [the] heart made [by the] libation priest [of] Southern Heliopolis (Thebes) son [of] Seni Khakheperresenebu called Ankhenhu ***Hence the Ankhenhu? I think an initial transliteration slip that remained: you perhaps first thought anx-n-h-w but it is anx-n-x-w, and then you'll see the n and x are phonetical complements so: anxw Like you had correctly in your tranliteration line, in fact! You just forgot to take it out of your translation line, right? :) Correct - proves the point that forests ain't the only place where wood = grows !! Why "Southern" Heliopolis and not the normal Heliopolis? I read somewhere _iwnw_ 'Southern Heliopolis' (Thebes) - I assumed to = differentiate between Thebes and the Heliopolis near Cairo ? isds A40 ? Alex alex.w@acraig.freeserve.co.uk ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 5-7 Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 16:59:44 PDT The next three lines have this progression again that I mentioned, but in reverse order; of sayings, then phrases then words. Dd=f HA n=i xn.w xmm.y He says: Would that I had sayings which are unknown, Ts.w xpp.w.y strange (unfamiliar) phrases, m md.t mA(.w).t tm.t swA with new words which have not occurred before, HA - non enclitic particle, 'would that!' introduces wishes or requests. As object of Dd see Gardiner paragraph 123. HA n=i 'Would that I had..' (lit. would that to me) xmm.y - masculine plural, perfect passive participle. Gardiner para. 360. Hoch para. 121(2,b) xpp.w.y - plural of xpp, 'strange'. Faulkner p.188 tm.t swA - Faulkner p.216 - 'which have not occurred before' Gardiner paragraph 397 - tmt - perfect active participle. 'mdt mAt tmt swA - new language which has never (yet) occurred (lit: passed).' For negation of participles the negative verb 'tm' is used which takes the required verbal form and is followed by the negatival complement. m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 19:13:42 -0500 From: "Tara Driscoll" Subject: AEL Greetings.. Hi, I am new to the list. We are currently studying Ancient Egypt in school, and i have an assignment dealing with them and their language. If anyone has any links to sites that have sound clips of people speaking Ancient Egyption, i would be very greatful. I am very interested in Ancient Egypt, so any other basic info about their language would also be appreciated. Thank you, Tara Driscoll Junior, Quest High School *********************************** chickclick.com http://www.chickclick.com girl sites that don't fake it. http://www.chickmail.com sign up for your free email. *********************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:39:01 -0400 From: Neuza Aparecida Apolinario To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Hieroglyph Viewer I have a nine years old boy (in fact, he will be nine on march, 14, 2000). I have been teaching him Ancient Egyptian and Greek since he was three years old. To increase his interest for these ancient languages, I have written a few computer games and multimedia tools for him and his friends. My ex-husband and I are translating into the games into English. The task is very hard, since I don't know English very well. In any case, the address of the site is: palaia.ufu.br www.palaia.ufu.br Both DNS names work fine. In this site, you will find a short Egyptian grammar that I wrote in Portuguese and my ex-husband translated into English. He also adapted the terminology to the use of adults. You will find also an applet to visualize hieroglyphic texts, and to present the Egyptian grammar to young children. The applet was written in ML, a computer language derived from Church's Lambda Calculus, that most linguists understand. It was compiled using MLj, that generate bytecodes for JVM 1.1. This means that the program should run in any browser, like Netscape, Opera, or Internet Explorer. If you click the mouse on a word, it shows the transliteration and meaning of the word. If you press the 'translation' button, it will show the translation of the sentence, with a color code to indicate the correspondence between the English and the Egyptian term. If you have a very slow Internet connection, and the applet does not work properly in your machine, send me an e-mail and I will be happy in sending you a copy that you can run directly from your hard disk. Since there is no Internet in my home town, I will not answer your mail right away. If you are in a hurry to get the applet, you can write to my ex-husband. His address is: costa@ufu.br He will also send you the other games, as soon as I finish translating them into English. I would appreciate if you could correct my mistakes. Feel free to vent your criticism, it does not matter how harsh it is. In this country, it is impossible to contact scholars who could give me the necessary feedback, and to correct my mistakes. I hope to get the feedback from you. As you have noticed by now, I do not know much English. Feel free in correcting my English too. N. Apolinario ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:22:47 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Marc Line Subject: AEL AEL: What you were afraid to ask Aayko Eyma writes: snip >[Q:] >"Why does nobody stick to the key on the AEL page??? According >to the key, "H" e.g. could mean one of 22 different glyphs >that have the same phone." > >[A:] >You are misreading Marc's key!; only the first one or two glyphs >indicate the bare value (A, i, a etc), the following glyphs start with this >value but add others to it (A, Aw, Ab, etc). So you must read >the key as a dictionary (every word starting with "e", "eb", "ec" etc >gets listed under "E" ), and likewise does every glyph _starting_ with >_H_ gets listed under _H_ in this key. In fact, Marc's key is NOT a key >for transliteration but a key to Faulkner's dictionary. Indeed, that's precisely what it is. In the early days of this list, when I was working on the pWestcar exercise, I was doing so initially without the benefit of a transliteration and later, without the benefit of being able to understand the transliteration when it was provided. Consequently, I was working from a contiguous string of glyphs which had to be divided into individual words and grammatical units. I soon found that as a complete novice, the best way for me to do that was to look up possible word units in a dictionary in order to ascertain whether or not they were viable. The approach was useful in that if the word was present in the dictionary: a) The word had been isolated from the contiguous string of glyphs. b) Meaning possibilities for the word were immediately to hand. c) Compounds were offered in the dictionary which could be checked for in the text. d) The first glyph of the next word usually followed. e) The dictionary provided a transliteration The down-side was that without some form of key, searching the dictionary for a word from glyphs alone was a rather time-intensive exercise. Consequently, having divided the dictionary into sections by marking the page-edges with staggered blocks and MDC characters, I spent some time going through the whole volume, noting every word-beginning glyph in each section and producing the 'key'. So, the key gives an indication of which part(s) of the dictionary to search in order to find a word beginning with a certain glyph. For instance, if we have what we suspect to be a word beginning with M4 (palm branch with notch), the key tells us that we should begin our search in the r, H and s sections of the dictionary, as that is where we can find words beginning with M4. Best regards Marc Line ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 8-10 Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 17:01:13 PDT Sw.t m wHmm.y.t which are free of repetitions, nn Ts(.w) n sbi.w.t r without phrases of a passed on language Dd.t.n tp-aw(.y) which the predecessors had said. I'm still working on these lines, but.. sw.t - I'm thinking might be a participle, like tm.t, Dd.t.n - in line 10, perhaps a perfective relative. sbi.w.t - ? sbi - go, travel (Faulkner), go, pass, send (Gardiner). So I think a sense of movement is implied rather then a load or a burden. Though I had contemplated "without phrases of the burden of language which those who had been before had said." m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== From: "J Amundson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 00:39:24 GMT Hello.. I wanted to properly introduce myself. I have enjoyed reading the postings! I live in Nebraska where the options for further study on ancient egypt/etc. are few and far between. I am not at the level that most of you are at, SO, do not expect much from me! I am self-taught in this field so I have MAJOR gaps in understanding. I will however try to garner a little bit of information that I am missing. Thanks for letting me listen in! Jo Anne Amundson j_amundson@hotmail.com ============================================================================== From: "Mr. Gary S. Dykes" To: "COPTIC LIST" Subject: AEL Sahidic Question Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:03:18 -0700 Howdy, I have a question as regards the Sahidic, in particular a form of the infinitive (prenominal). The word which I need information about is found in the Sahidic text of I Corinthians 4:1: the Sahidic word is thus: p = rho w = omega (long o) mapenpwme (there is a supralinear stroke over the nun, n ) translated into English this word means "let the people". My question is mape is the prenominal form of what infinitive, that is WHAT is the regular form of the infinitive of this word?? I am competent with the Koine Greek and Syriac, but need help with some of my Sahidic. I work with the text of the Greek NT, and versions. If I can find good help on this list I will continue to post some questions. I have received some assistance on this word from Dr. Attridge, and Dr. Brakke and they were helpful. thank you, Mr. Gary S. Dykes (of Visalia, CA) yhwh3in1@lightspeed.net that is..... y h w h 3 in 1 (at) l i g h t s p e e d . net ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 11:50:12 -0700 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , yhwh3in1@lightspeed.net Subject: Re: AEL Sahidic Question "Mr. Gary S. Dykes" wrote: > The word which I need information about is found in the Sahidic text of I > Corinthians 4:1: > > the Sahidic word is thus: p = rho w = omega (long o) > > mapenpwme (there is a supralinear stroke over the nun, n ) > > translated into English this word means "let the people". My question is > mape is the prenominal form of what infinitive, that is WHAT is the regular > form of the infinitive of this word?? Well the short answer is that there is no infinitive of this word. The long answer is that the finite verb in Coptic (of whatever dialect) is made up of three parts: [verbal auxiliary]-[subject]-[infinitive] In your example you have given us the first two parts, leaving off the infinitive of the actual verb. The verbal auxiliary is derived from a phrase in Late Egyptian and is simply a sort of verbal prefix in Coptic with no independent existence. In this case you have the Jussive auxiliary "mape" and the subject "n.pwme" (which is the plural definite article and the noun), and can indeed be translated "let the people." However since you haven't included the main verb leaving us wondering "let the people WHAT?" If we wrote mape-n.pwme-swtm it would be "let the people hear" or mare-n.pwme-ouwm "let the people eat." In these cases the actual verb would be rperesented by the infinitives swtm (hear) or ouwm (eat). > I am competent with the Koine Greek and Syriac, but need help with some of > my Sahidic. Take into account that Coptic is only distantly related to Syriac and its ties to Greek are even more tenuous, so the structure of the language is very different from either - even though it borrows a lot of vocabulary from Greek. > If I can find good help on this list I will continue to post some questions. Hmm.... Is this a test? -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 5-7 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:47:03 +0100 Dear Ben, >m mdt mat tm mt >as true words not wandering (???) > wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on >line seven. The m is up for debate, as you will have seen, Jenny taking it to be "with" as she sees a progression, I take it to be "as, namely" as I see a parallelism (see below). I think only because you could not place the final .t, you seperated tm and m, which you otherwise would not have done, right? But the m just belongs to the auxiliary verb (Faulkner p.298), and the .t is a grammatical ending. The x plus leggs is on Faulkner p.216, among the variants, and Z9 in the Sign List. Dear Jenny, >The next three lines have this progression again that I mentioned, but in >reverse order; of sayings, then phrases then words. This is an elegant idea - but I fear I cannot agree with it. How could he use "unfamiliar phrases" and "new words" - if we would take these words in such a grammatical (top-down) way - nobody would understand him! He cannot employ foreign grammar or invent new words - he wants new _ideas_, new 'words of wisdom'. I.e. it's contents, not form, that must be new. So for me the lines do not have a progression but a parallellism, as so often is employed in ancient literature: with different words saying more or less the _same_ to stress the point. xn.w xmm.y utterances that are unknown, Ts.w xpp.w.y maxims that are strange, md.t mA(.w).t sayings that are new. kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:10:50 +1000 From: Michael Hutchison To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Is this a Stative? Any helpers for this? Gardiner Ex. X(a) 1, appears to correctly transliterate as: iw Sms.n.i Hm.f Hr rdwy.i t(i) sw Hr xAst tn The main clause introduced by iw seems to be straightforward sDm.n.f statement of fact translating as "I followed His majesty upon my feet..." The remaining subordinate clause, if you take Gardiner on board (Para. 119), translates t(i) as a particle meaning "when" which introduces the dependent pronoun sw (much as mk may do; Hoch Para. 39) and therefore translates as "..when he was in this foreign country." My problem is that nowhere outside of Gardiner can I find such a use for t(i). I suspect Gardiner may have fabricated this sentence to illustrate his Para. 119, but then again, I suspect it could be some use of the Stative in a non-verbal subordinate clause? I look forward to enlightenment on this. Regards -- Michael Hutchison p: +613 9645 1862 t: +613 9645 1862 e: hutchm@netspace.net.au ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 10:12:27 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AEL Is this a Stative? Mr. Hutchison: I cannot cite the source for Gardiner's sentence you cite, but I do not think it was fabricated in the sense you imply. After all, Gardiner =A7119.4 has a perfectly real example, and his note 8 cites two other real examples. When James Allen's new grammar becomes available, you will find this adverbial clause with ti discussed in his =A712.16.2, with another parallel example. I am not sure why you think it might be a stative. Where is the verb? If there were a stative there, it too would be a circumstantial usage. Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: AEL Louvre C14 - Lines 11-12 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:40:38 +0200 Line 11 iw(=i) rx=kw(i) ir.t imy.t ix.wt "I know the making of pigments (and) things" Line 12 hAA.t ny "which come down (go into them) for (them)" nn rdi.t mAx sn x.t "without allowing that a fire may burn them (lit.: not is the allowing that ...)" n iai.ny n mw grt "they do not wash off through water either" iri "[in general] to make", HWB, p. 88 -> ir.t feminine infinitive (paragraph 299 "Forms of the infinitive", 3ae inf.) imy.t "a pigment (*color paste)", HWB, p. 69 There is a rather strange sign in this word which does not belong to Gardiner's sign-list, nor to the extended library. HWB has an entry in its phonetic list with reading _im_, p. 1173 - a variant of Aa13 im? hAi "(1) [in general] to come down, to descend ... (5) to come (n/r to) ... (11) [mathematical] to go in(to)", HWB, p. 485 I think it is here an imperfective active participle Form (paragraph 357): "Gemination, in the participles, is a sign of the imperfective sense, whether active or passive" (paragraph 362) for 3ae inf.: hAi -> hAA; as it refers to ix.wt, a feminine plural word, it is also of the same gender and number -> hAA.t - paragraph 357: "_f. sing. and plur._ ... only the gender ending _-t_ is written" Tense: "the imperfectives ... conveyed a notion of _continuity_ or _repetition_." (paragraph 365) ny [pronomial adverb; usage analogous to preposition _n_] "therefore", HWB, p. 386 Gardiner, paragraph 205, 1: "therefore, for (it)" defectively written _n_ (Edel, Altaegyptische Grammatik [OE grammar], paragraph 751a). These adverbs show the ending -y (or -w) and replace the attaching of the personal pronoun so that for example one can use _ny_ for _n=f_ as well as for _n=s_ or _n=sn_. The ending _-y_ became _-w_ in the MK and replaced _-sn_ by _-w_ in LE and Coptic (Edel, paragraph 751, introduction). The plural strokes seem to be there because ny refers to the plural or collectivum imy.t "pigments". ("When a suffix is involved" for feminine collectives, normally seen as singular, "usage is variable", namely sometimes sing., sometimes plur., paragraph 510, 2 "concord of number") In short: ny (or: nw?) for: n=sn for: n imy.t rDi (rdi) "... III (1) to cause ... (5) nn rdi.t - without allowing that", HWB, p. 484 rdi is an anomalous verb (paragraph 289, 1). The infinitive is rdi.t (paragraph 299, anom.) nn rdi.t nn "is used with the infinitive as its subject to express the non-performance or non-occurrence of some verbal action. This construction is hardly employed, however, except to qualify some preceding statement, and in this case ,,, it is often best to translate _nn_ as 'without'." (paragraph 307, 1) mAX (mAx) "to burn", HWB, p. 321 x.t "fire, flame", HWB, p. 577 iai "[in general] to wash, to purify, ..., to wash off (an inscription)", HWB, p. 29 mw "[in general] water", HWB, p. 329 n mw "through water" - see paragraph 164, 5: "_n_ ... indicates the person or things _affected_ ... of _cause_" gr "[enclitic particle at the end of a sentence] also, likewise, (not) any more", HWB, p. 902 grt "[enclitic particle] also, moreover; but", HWB, p. 902 Paragraph 255: "An example may be quoted where _grt_ is used exactly like the adverb _gr_ 'also'", namely this sentence in line 12! Paragraph 205, 1 "adverbs": "_gr_, _grw_ ... 'also'; after negatives 'further', 'any more' ..." n iai.ny n mw grt This is not a parallel construction to nn rdi.t ...: (1) nn is replaced by n (2) the infinitive of iai (3ae inf) is ia.t but a kind of a "n sDm.n=f form" ("negation of the narrative verb") with its suffix omitted. Gardiner, paragraph 418: "the construction _n sDm.n=f_ is common in _characterizations, statements of custom_, and _ generalizations_ of all kinds." Paragraph 486: "The subject of the verb-forms of the suffix conjugation is sometimes omitted." - Obs. 2: "In certain cases where _sDm.n_ occurs, particularly after the negative word _n_, it has been explained as a special participial or finite form, the more plausibly since n:Z2 or n:Z4 _ny_ is occasionally written instead of simple _n_... The probable explanation in most cases, however, is that sDm.n or sDm.ny simply represents the sDm.n=f form with omission of the subject." (also: Edel, paragraph 992) In short: iai.ny for: iai.n=sn Irtysen described his ability to produce paints (or pigments) which last ("heat-resistant" and "water-proof"). Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: Encheduana@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:09:44 EDT Subject: Re: AEL Sahidic Question To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Dear Mr. Dykes The verb-form in Coptic is composed of: verbal prefix + subject (noun or pronoun) + verb The form You ask about is the so-called Injunctive or Optative and has the form MAP + pronoun + verb (in the Infinitive), if the subject ist a pronoun, e.g. MAPICWTM "let me hear" (CWTM = "to hear"), or MAPE- + noun (mostly with definite article) + verb (in the Infinitive), if the subject is a noun, e.g. MAPE-NPWME CWTM "let the people hear". The signification of the Injunctive of the first person is more cohortative ("lets do it"), of the third person more jussive ("they shall hear"). So the analysis of your form is: MAPE- = Injunctive N with a stroke is the definite article plural PWME means "man, person", with the plural article "men, people" what follows now is actually the Infinitive of the verb, which you didn't write, but I guess (after Horner, The Coptiv Version of the New Testament) it is OpEN or OpN with stroke on the N (p for Pi), the N meaning "us" and not the plural article. Op= (before pronoun) means "esteem, consider". Please note, that the normal Infinitive of this verb is Wp, the status before a noun is Ep- and before a pronoun is Op=. I would translate "the people shall consider us (servants of Christ...) With kind regards A. Heyne ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:29:58 -0400 From: Neuza Aparecida Apolinario To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Site problems Hi, AEL list subscribers. Yesterday my site was down. I am new to this Internet thing, and was not able to restart my apache server. Besides this, the server is in another town, 300 km from Catanduva, where I live. In any case, the Apache server is working again. The address is: > palaia.ufu.br > www.palaia.ufu.br If you do not want to spend connection time with DNS search, the IP is 200.19.148.29 I apologize for making you loose your time trying to connect to a site that was not working properly. Thanks to everybody who wrote me privately, calling my attention to the site problems. I keep waiting for your feedback. N. A. Apolinario P. S. I would also appreciate if any of you could teach me how to register my site with search engines, like Altavista and Yahoo. It would be even better if you could do the registration for me :) ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:49:22 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: judith sebesta Subject: Re: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 11-15 I'll be happy if I have the transcription reasonably correct! line 11 sXAk=i Xt=i hr ntyt ims line 12 m fx.n Dd=i nb Hr ntyt rf wHmw Dd dt(w) line 13 iw Dd dt Dd line 14 nn abw=i mdt(w) imyw-HAt (from line 15) I do not unite the words of those who were before (e.g. those of former times) line 15 gmi=s imyw=xt those of later times (e.g. posterity) Judith Sebesta, Chair Dept. of History 414 East Clark St. U of South Dakota Vermillion SD 57069 FAX: 605-677-5568 Phone: 605-677-5218 e-mail: jsebesta@usd.edu ============================================================================== From: MxPx322@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:02:26 EDT Subject: AEL "The Eye of Horus" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk What exactly did the eye of horus as a symbol stand for? Thanks~ ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Khakheperreseneb Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 18:07:50 PDT Hi Chris, welcome, >I am having problems finding any program that can transcribe the consonants >(Sw.t m wHmm.y.t) into hieroglyphs. < I guess Winglyph is what you are after. See the CCER site at http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/ for a downloadable demo version. -- Glyph for Windows 1.2 DEMO Dear Aayko, >>The next three lines have this progression again that I mentioned, >>but >>in reverse order; of sayings, then phrases then words. >This is an elegant idea - but I fear I cannot agree with it. >How could he use "unfamiliar phrases" and "new words" >- if we would take these words in such a grammatical (top-down) way - >nobody would understand him! >He cannot employ foreign grammar or invent new words - >he wants new _ideas_, new 'words of wisdom'. >I.e. it's contents, not form, that must be new. >So for me the lines do not have a progression but a parallellism, >as so often is employed in ancient literature: with different >words saying more or less the _same_ to stress the point. You are quite possibly right, however 'unfamiliar phrases' does not necessarily mean using a foreign grammar. Language is always changing and 'new words' appear with each generation. So while I agree that he is looking for new ideas / new content, I think he is also looking for new ways in which to express these ideas. And that may also include the structure of the whole piece. Whichever way you translate it there is this mirror image in the first few lines:- md.w.t Ts.w xn.w xn.w Ts.w md.w.t By that alone he is trying to be creative in the way he structures his lines. Is this something that was done by previous writers? (I need to study this area a bit more.) m Htp Jenny Carrington ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:16:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Benjamin A. Martin" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 11-13 Dear Judith, Your transliteration is the same as I have. Here's what I get, I'm not sure if they're completely right or not though. 11. sHAk=i xt=i hr ntt im.s I will empty my body concerning that in it 12. m fx n Dd=i nb hr ntt rf whmw Dd dt as loose to my every word for that now which is repeated has been said 13. iw Dd dt Dd what has been said is said Dear Aayko, Thanks for your thoughts on lines 5-7 they helped alot. Ben ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:37:00 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: judith sebesta Subject: Re: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 11-13 Some grammatical questions. I thought future was always in the form iw.f r sDm If so, can sHAk=i be future nonetheless? Or is it more likely prospective picking up on the "would that" of line 5? Faulkner p. 200 under xt has the phrase imyw-xt "thoughts". Therefore could xt=i hr ntt im.s mean "thoughts" through a long periphrasis? then line 11 would be "in order that I might empty my thoughts" > >Dear Judith, > >Your transliteration is the same as I have. >Here's what I get, I'm not sure if they're completely right or not though. > >11. sHAk=i xt=i hr ntt im.s > I will empty my body concerning that in it > >12. m fx n Dd=i nb hr ntt rf whmw Dd dt > as loose to my every word for that now which is repeated has been said > >13. iw Dd dt Dd > what has been said is said > > >Ben Judith Sebesta, Chair Dept. of History 414 East Clark St. U of South Dakota Vermillion SD 57069 FAX: 605-677-5568 Phone: 605-677-5218 e-mail: jsebesta@usd.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:36:14 -0700 From: Chris Bloom To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Egyptian Translation Attention All: I have recently come across a website from a gentleman in Uraguay where their Insititute of Egyptology is in the final stages of an automatic computer translational program. Supposedly it wont be ready until the end of 1999 and will include a basic dictionary of 11,000 words. I know it sort of defeats the purpose of this group, but if you are interested, you can request more info from the program's author: Carlos Galucci cgalucci@adinet.com.uy ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 11-15 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 18:52:04 PDT sXAk=i X.t=i Hr-n.t.t im=s I strain (squeeze out) my body because of what was in it m fx n Dd=i nb Hr-n.t.t rf wHm.w Ddd.t to get rid of (to release) all I had said because of repetitions of what has been said. iw Ddd.t Dd What has been said is said. nn aba(.w) md.t imy.w-HA.t There can be no boasts of words of the ancestors, (those of former times) gm is imy.w-x.t which those who come after find. (those of later times) Hr-n.t.t - 'because' m fx - Would you consider 'to get rid of' or 'to release' to be a verb of motion? In which case it would be a pseudo-verbal construction with m + infinitive, which expresses concomitant circumstance, (ie. it accompanies the sqeezing out), as does Hr + infinitive, but m + inf. stresses the movement rather than the result. Or simply a preposition and infinitive - "in the releasing .." rf - enclitic particle, for added emphasis, not always needed to be translated. Ddd.t - Perfect passive participle. Gardiner paragraph 360. Reference is to the past with no notion of continuity, however there are forms of the 2-lit verbs (eg. Dd) with repetition of the last radical consonant, eg. Ddd.t - "what has been said" - feminine singular. There is a variety with plural strokes (para.354) which are frequently added to the feminine participle used without antecedent noun to express neuter ideas. nn - negation of future tense m Htp Jenny Carrington ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:24:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Benjamin A. Martin" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 11-13 I'm pretty certain that in line 11 sHAk=i is future tense. Gardiner, in paragraph 450.3 has this type of construction. Exx. ms=s m Abd 1 (n) prt, sw 15 she will give birth on the 15th day of the first month of winter. mA=k pr=k thou shalt see thy house A couple things worry me about translating line 11 as "In order that I might empty my thoughts." First, this would make line 11 a dependent clause and lines 12-13 don't seem to satisfy that type of a setup. Second, in this case _xt_ precedes _im.s_ and is seperated by _hr ntt_(demonstrative pronoun). Also, _im.s_ has the sing. 3,f suffix pronoun. To me, that almost begs the reading "in it." I agree though that in line 11 he could be talking about getting rid of his old, repetitive thoughts. Any one have ideas on this? Ben Martin ============================================================================== From: "John Prince" To: Subject: AEL help Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 02:11:34 +1000 Dear Listmembers, I am looking for help on some questions on Egyptian mythology. I realise, that my questions are no contributions to your discussion group, but I would greatly appreciate any answers to my private e - mail address: j_prince@one.net.au My first question regards the filling in of vowels into the Egyptian text. I have read on your introductory page on Hieroglyphics, that there are no vowels. So the Egyptians would have written the name of the god Amun as mn. How do we know that the name was Amun? In most books he is referred to as Amun, but in some books, for example, 'The Gods Of The Egyptians' by E.A.Wallis Budge, Dover Publications, New York 1969, he is consistently called Amen and also Amen - Re. Which version of the name is correct? How do we know? What are the arguments for each version? It strikes me as strange, that the gods name is Amun, but the Pharaos, whose name were meant to contain the name of the god, are called Amenhotep and not Amunhotep. My other question refers to another Egyptian god. I came across the god 'Iah' in 'The New Scientist' 21/28.12.1991 in an Article called 'Heavenly Signs' by Bradley E. Schaefer, which dealt with the origin of the crescent symbol as used by Moslems today. In the picture, Iah looked like a typical Egyptian, with a bound beard protruding of the tip of his chin only. On his head was a crescent whith the open part facing up and inside that was something big and round, maybe the sun. The article does not say anything about the god. I could not find any reference to him in any book on Egyptian gods or mythology. I would like to know, when and where did he first appear in Egypt. What were meant to be his properties, and are there any stories about him? What is the significance of the crescent in ancient Egyptian mythology? Or maybe someone knows Mr. Bradley E. Schaefer, and can get me into contact with him. I would appreciate greatly any replies to my queries. Kind Regards John Prince ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Khakheperreseneb Lines 11-13 Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 19:56:38 +0100 >I'll be happy if I have the transcription reasonably correct! A complicated section (12-13) I agree line 11-13 sXAk=i X.t=i Hr n.t.t im=s m fx n Dd=i nb Hr n.t.t rf wHm.w Ddd.t iw Ddd.t Dd "I sieve my inner self for that what is in there, while freeing all my speaking from that what is repetition which has already been said. For what has been said is (already) said!" - "To filtrate my body" apparantly being the vivid AE analogue to "To squeeze my brains"/ "To strain my mind", like a golddigger seaving for nuggets :) - n.t(.y).t introduces a sentence that will give complementary information; "that (what is)" - My conjecture: seeing the legs, I think fx here has the meaning: to loosen oneself of -> to leave behind, to stop doing cf HWB 307; then we have m + infinitive which stands for Hr+inf. for verbs of motion. - I presume the n.t.t rf is r-n.t.t "fact is that", "concerning that" but with more stress (rf stress particle). - Ddd.t must be perfective passive participle. The plural strokes are again not clear to me. - So I take the last lines as the speaker purging himself of cliches, everything what is old news, for as he says in line 14: rechewing old sayings is no effort to be proud of. What remains after the puge are the nuggets of original wisdom implied in the first line. - Second Dd perhaps Dd(.w) [sDm.w=f] Difficult. Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "djed" To: Subject: AEL a prayer to Nut Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 17:32:56 +0200 Hello. I am new on this group, and very glad to join in the discussion. Just a few words to introduce myself : I live in Paris, France, where I have been learning Egyptian for two years. In my school, Egyptian learning is based on Grandet & Mathieu's Cours d'gyptien hiroglyphique , a 800 page survey of middle-egyptian grammar. My first posting is a request : inscribed on the inner lid of a coffin, we can often read a short, but poetical prayer to Nut. With a few variants, the text says : O, my mother Nut (or maybe : Come, my mother Nut), spread your wings over me, so that I will stay with you among the Imperishable Stars and will never die (excuse me for this awkward translation). I've tried to decipher by myself this prayer, out of a sarcophagus which is displayed in the Muse du Louvre, but I failed in my attemps to read all the glyphs. As you know, carved or painted texts are much more difficult to read than printed texts :- ) I'd like much to get the Egyptian text of this prayer. Is there anybody who could post it for me (and for all of us), either as a transliteration or as a coded text which I can use with Winglyph. Thank you very much. Philippe ==============================================================================