Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 20:52:16 -0800 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL new translation Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues wrote: > > There is an objection to it, which is that stative is, for transitive > > verbs (those who have objects, then), a passive form. Hence the > > patient is the subject, and the form can't have object. > > Of course, you are right and that is the generally accepted rule. The only exception to > it being that the 1st person singular of the stative form of transitive verbs can > sometimes have an *active* meaning. So far the rules. But that is exactly what I > wanted to come to (in slow steps): I am suggesting here that the case of anx Dt *might* > be proving that this "exception" to the rule is not restricted to the 1st person > singular, but might also apply to --at least-- the third person singular! In that case, > it *is* possible for the stative form to have a direct object (since its meaning would > be active). All this originates from my personal experience with the fact that the > "classical" and rigid division between transitive and intransitive verbs does not seem > to exist in AE. But, of course, I lack proof (and time to collect it) to substantiate > these claims. And then there is always the fact that --in the case of anx Dt-- there > are (I think) some occurrences in which Dt is preceded by the preposition m or r. Those > cases speak against my hypothesis. Have you considered the fact that the stative was originally an active past tense form? This phrase had, I believe, been around for quite a while, and might be a fossilized usage. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Billy-Bob Joe" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Help! Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 06:41:56 PST Can sombody tell me how to form different tenses ============================================================================== From: "Huw Ford" To: Subject: AEL Errors in Collier/Manley Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:05:52 -0000 Since last summer I have been learning to read AEL using "How to read Egyptian Hieroglyphs" by Mark Collier & Bill Manley and have nearly finished the last chapter. However I took a break from it for two months due to work commitments and have only come back to it in the last two weeks. As a refresher I decided to go right back to the start of the book and work through all the exercises again. This has shown me a lot of things I missed first time through and I can recomend it to anyone else at the same stage as myself. One of the things I have found was a mistake? in exercise 3.9 BM EA 585 I read the end of the first line as: di=f xA m (he gives a thousand of) but the key to the exercises gives di=f prt-xrw (so that he may give a voice offering of). Is this realy a mistake or am I missing somthing? If this is a mistake does anyone know of any others in this book? and if there are any others is there a list of them somwhere? In the same exercise the mothers name is spelt with the symbol E61 "arm offering loaf" so I transliterated it as bA-mdi-kt however the book transliterates it as bA-mkt. Why is the symbol E61 "arm offering loaf" not transliterated? is it some kind of obscure determinative? I hope someone can help. Huw Ford Huw@Tesco.net ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:01:10 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Errors in Collier/Manley Hi Huw Ford, An extensive summary of errors and omissions etc is given in the review page at: http://www.ccer.theo.uu.nl/texts/ael/books/collier.htm Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne, Australia ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 14:43:16 -0800 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Errors in Collier/Manley Huw Ford wrote: > As a refresher I decided to go right back to the start of the book > and work through all the exercises again. This has shown me a lot of > things I missed first time through and I can recomend it to anyone else > at the same stage as myself. As Feynman said, "Start at the beginning and keep on until you feel lost, then go back to beginning and start over. Eventually you'll have mastered the whole thing." > One of the things I have found was a mistake? in exercise 3.9 BM EA > 585 I read the end of the first line as: di=f xA m (he gives a > thousand of) but the key to the exercises gives di=f prt-xrw (so that > he may give a voice offering of). Is this realy a mistake or am I > missing somthing? > > If this is a mistake does anyone know of any others in this book? > and if there are any others is there a list of them somwhere? Yes this is a mistake. For a number of other mistakes or questionable points, see: http://www.ccer.theo.uu.nl/texts/ael/books/commntlst.html > In the same exercise the mothers name is spelt with the symbol E61 > "arm offering loaf" so I transliterated it as bA-mdi-kt however the book > transliterates it as bA-mkt. Why is the symbol E61 "arm offering loaf" > not transliterated? is it some kind of obscure determinative? I presume they are taking it as being the same spelling as in mk "behold! / see!" which is spelled similarly. It is believed that the arm sign is actually a phonetic sign "mi." You will find a variety of different arm signs used in different texts in this manner. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:35:49 +0100 From: rossi mario To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Errors in Collier/Manley I think I can help you. The easiest first: the bird and the bread are a combination of two signs but with only one phonetical value : m (Gardiner's list=G19). So you have bA-m-kt. Now the verb form: di=f xA m. Keep in mind that you have an offering formula and consequently when you translate these expressions, you have to add some "exhortation" as we say in french. Of course nothing lets you know that you have such a type of phrase. You have to deal with the context of the sentence:a stela on which you find a formula, and here you have a wish. I hope I was helpful and pardon for my imperfect english. Best regards, Mich=E8le Rossi-Ducci ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:31:35 +0000 From: Rohan Fenwick To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Help! Billy-Bob Joe wrote: > > Can sombody tell me how to form different tenses There are a few different verb tenses, these can all be found in a good Egyptian dictionary. The past tense is formed by adding the suffix n to the end of the infinitive, before the suffix-pronoun. I'm not sure about the future tense though, the verb tenses and their (present day) pronunciations can be found at: http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/egypt.html Rohan Fenwick z-fenwick.r@chac.qld.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 02:35:57 -0800 (PST) From: Arnaud "Saltr" Subject: AEL Asiatics To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Hello, I am new on the list, and I would like to know more about 'asiatic' in any egyptian language. I only know about 'amw' and 'styw', but could you tell me who was exactly named so, and when. Are they any specific words for specific asiatic people ? Thank for your help, and for any advice about bibliography. Sincerly, Arnaud ( merigo@yahoo.com) ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:26:35 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Francesca Subject: AEL bibliography site Hello everyone. I am currently working on a website which is an extended bibliography covering different areas of Ancient Egypt. Please feel free to visit and email for questions, suggestions, or problems. Regards, Francesca ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:06:33 +0000 From: Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL new translation Dear Stephen, You wrote: > Have you considered the fact that the stative was originally an active past tense form? > This phrase had, I believe, been around for quite a while, and might be a fossilized usage. > > -- > Stephen Fryer > Lund Computer Services Wow! This I had forgotten! Does this mean you are willing to accept my hypothesis that Dt is a direct object of anx and not an "adverbial form" of some kind? Sincerely, Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues udjat@skynet.be Udjat, Eye in the Sky ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:10:21 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: David Sheby Subject: AEL Glyph usage? Dear AEL'ers. First, thanks for all the interesting reading that you provide. It's mind boggling to witness the cumulative intelligence of so many people spread around the globe attacking AEL problems with such fervor and so selflessly. I'm delighted to be able to witness this phenomena. One day we'll read about this is in a popular "Internet" column in the New York Times or Wall Street Journal. Now my questions: 1] Are there studies of glyph (symbol) frequency usage in AEL? If so, would someone provide references? The types of questions that interest me: 2] If the total number of glyphs that appears on "all" known AEL material is "N" (a large number), then how many unique glyphs "x" would comprise p% of the written material when p (for example) = 10%, 25%? 50%? 80%? 3] If one were to examine other languages/alphabets that existed contemporaneously with AEL, and which did not use determinatives, would they have the same letter frequency rates, i.e., that "x" letters comprised "p" percent of the total written material? 4] Are there any studies on the correlation of glyph sequencing: for example, given that glyph "a" appears adjacent to glyph "b", what's the probability that glyph "c" appears 1,2, or 3 (etc.) symbols after glyph "b". 5] Have any of the more linguistically skilled looked to see if there are any sequences of words embedded in various texts over the existing text (i.e., comprised of glyphs separated by each other by "n" glyphs: sort of a "Torah codes" concept). The ancient Egyptians seemed to be intrigued with "hidden" words/meanings: did they "hide" any religious concepts (words/ magical formulae) within their religious/magical texts (e.g. Book of Dead)? Thanks in advance for any insights, (I'm still using colored pencils in Budge to color in and recognize different glyphs). David Sheby ============================================================================== From: "Jose Miguel Serrano Delgado" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:04:11 +0000 Subject: AEL RE:Asiatics Hello Arnaud: You can try: D.Valbelle, L'Egyptien et les etrangers de la Prehistoire a la conquete d'Alexandre, Armand Colin, Paris, 1990 Jose Miguel Serrano Dpto. de Historia Antigua Univ. de Sevilla (Espa=F1a) ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:49:00 -0500 From: Wendy Doyon To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Glyph usage? These are interesting questions, but you have to remember that the ancient Egyptian language, like all languages, is a system of syntactic and morphological rules. It's not simply a question of how many glyphs appear where, because they are not just pictographs. But it is interesting to trace the etymology of certain words, and the patterns for determinatives and their relation to meaning. It also depends a great deal on what period you are referring to. If you are looking for patterns in phonology, you must trace the evolution of their phonetic system from its beginnings onward. And that is indeed a very interesting study. The phonetic inventory for the different dialects of egyptian can be compared to those of other languages at contemporaneous times, there are many language family studies, and influence from other tongues. The questions you are asking involve phonetic associations, and assimilation, and questions of dialectal preference, "accents", etc. That is less easily discernible from the hieroglyphic accounts, since those are of a "classical" nature, and do not often reflect the spoken language. If you are simply looking for formulaic patterns in the placement of glyphs, you're of course going to see the patterns that the grammar dictates. But the egyptians were extremely clever, and there was always a reason for the meanings & sounds correlating to the symbols. When you read egyptian, there's a sense of magic, as if things are alive and speaking to one another, flowing through the page. There are incredible connections between nature and language. The garments of the pharaohs contained linguistic references to the spirit and life. The language grew out of everything. But i have not done research into "encoded" words in the texts, I guess it would not be hard to find reason for their rhyme, and to pick out harmonious interrelations in the texts. "...in Egypt a pun is not an accident. A name is a mirror to catch the soul of a thing, and a pun is the corner of its garment". Wendy Doyon wdoyon@earthlink.net > The types of questions that interest me: > > 2] If the total number of glyphs that appears on "all" known AEL material > is "N" (a large number), then how many unique glyphs "x" would comprise p% > of the > written material when p (for example) = 10%, 25%? 50%? 80%? > > 3] If one were to examine other languages/alphabets that existed > contemporaneously with AEL, > and which did not use determinatives, would they have the same letter > frequency rates, i.e., that "x" letters comprised "p" percent of the total > written material? > > 4] Are there any studies on the correlation of glyph sequencing: for example, > given that glyph "a" appears adjacent to glyph "b", what's the probability > that > glyph "c" appears 1,2, or 3 (etc.) symbols after glyph "b". > 5] Have any of the more linguistically skilled looked to see if there are > any sequences > of words embedded in various texts over the existing text (i.e., comprised > of glyphs separated > by each other by "n" glyphs: sort of a "Torah codes" concept). The ancient > Egyptians seemed > to be intrigued with "hidden" words/meanings: did they "hide" any religious > concepts (words/ > magical formulae) within their religious/magical texts (e.g. Book of Dead)? ============================================================================== From: "Franz Luky" To: Subject: AEL C14 (3) help. Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:43:37 +0100 Hallo! I would like to have help aboute the translation of row 3 of the C14 stela. 3. nsyt rdi Wsir nb Dd(w) xnt imn nb AbDw m swt.f nbt nfrt wAbt Trad.: Osiris, Lord of Busiris in front of the West and Lord of Abydos, gave me kingship and every beautiful and pure thing from his places. I'm not so sure I'm quite a begginner, I study Hieros on my own from 1 year... Thanx Franco Lacchin ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Asiatics Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:05:18 +0100 Arnaud Saltr wrote: > I would like to know more about > 'asiatic' in any egyptian language. I only know about 'amw' and > 'styw', but could you tell me who was exactly named so, and when. > Are they any specific words for specific asiatic people ? Rainer Hannig/Petra Vomberg, "Wortschatz der Pharaonen in Sachgruppen" [Vocabulary of the pharaons arranged by subjects], Mainz, 1999 Subject Field 37 "Special" (foreigners, foreign peoples/countries), pp. 243-247 iwntiw Asian bow people ysrir Israel, children of Israel aAm Asian, Semite, Canaanite, Syrian slave aprw *Hebrew [* unclear, not yet provable] prst (plst) Philistine fnxw Syrian-Palestinian people mntiw-(nw)-stt Asian Mentiu (one of the nine bows peoples) xr (xArw) Syrians, Hurrites stiw, sTtiw Asians knanw Canaanites It seems that there are not so many terms for Asian peoples. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:27:30 -0800 (PST) From: Tiamyiat Subject: Re: AEL Glyph usage? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List ---Wendy Doyon wrote: > > "...in Egypt a pun is not an accident. A name is a mirror to catch the > soul of a thing, and a pun is the corner of its garment". Wendy, What is the source of your quote? I've been trying to explain punning in AEL to someone, and it seems most apropo. thanks. ============================================================================== From: "David Howell" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL C14 (3) help. Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:18:26 -0600 > I would like to have help aboute the translation of row 3 of = >the C14 stela. > >3. nsyt rdi Wsir nb Dd(w) xnt imn nb AbDw m swt.f nbt nfrt wAbt 3.Htp-di-nsw Wsir nb Dd(w) xnt(y) imntyw nb AbDw m swt=f nb.t nfr.t wAb.t > >Trad.: Osiris, Lord of Busiris in front of the West and Lord of Abydos, = >gave me kingship and every beautiful and pure thing from his places. translation: An offering which the king gives and Osiris Lord of Busiris, the one who is Foremost of the Westerners, the Lord of Abydos and in all his other beautiful and pure places. > >I'm not so sure I'm quite a begginner, I study Hieros on my own from 1 >year... A very good job. The Htp-di-nsw formula translated as "an offering which the king gives" or "a boon which the king gives" is a very ancient and formalized phrase. There is an entire book devoted to it. The name of which escapes me at the moment. nsw "king" is said to be in "honorific transposition". I believe the verb is a present relative form. ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:32:43 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: "A.Bey" Subject: AEL "over time" phrase. While studying Sheldon Lee Gosline's "Writing Late Egyptian Hieratic: a beginner's Primer", on page 18 (lesson 6) I came across the phrase "over time" which uses the characters D21 G39 Z2, with the transliteration given as r-s3. My question concerns the use of G39 Z2 for "time". I have not found any connection with time and that character in Gardiner, Faulkner, nor Budge. Would that use for s3 as "time" only be found in hieratic? Thank you in advance, Amir Bey ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL msd' Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:40:05 +0100 Jack Kilmon wrote on Jan. 16, 1999: > Can anyone give me an example where msd' may > be used for either "set aside," "reject," or > "deny" rather than HATE? HWB, p. 366: msDi (1) to hate; to abhor (sin, death) (2) to be dissatisfied with; to scold, to give someone a telling-off; to put last, to put someone at a disadvantage (3) not to want (4) [judicial] *to sentence [*unclear, not yet provable] Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ==============================================================================